Setting Yourself Up To Do Your Best Work with Amrita Mathur

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

In this episode, Olivia Hurley talks to Amrita Mathur, VP of Marketing at Superside. Amrita breaks down the rituals and habits you and your team can employ to ensure prolonged success.

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...mhm Hey everyone welcome back to VTV growth.My name is Olivia, Hurley and today I'm joined by an MRI to Mathur VP ofmarketing at super side and rita how are you doing? Doing good since thelast time we spoke. Thanks for having me. Oh my gosh, it's my pleasure. I'msuper excited to chat with you because we're going to get a littlephilosophical today, we're very tactical generally and I'm thrilled tokind of dive into this aspect of work and marketing. So the last time wespoke, you shared with me, your philosophy on work as a whole and howyou started thinking about how to work um could you unpack that for us andgive us a, give us a sense. So what are you talking about? Yeah, yeah, for sureit spans so much and to be honest, I'd seem like a lot of it's like verypractical and tactical, like you said, like some of it's like philosophical Isuppose, but when you think about work in the context of hey how do you scaleyourself and your team and how do you ensure that the team is doing its bestwork and that people are happy and motivated and living their best livesand being challenged. Like there's like all these objectives right? Like it hasto be practical and it has to be something that can work in reality. We,we, I think unfortunately at least in startup land we don't have the luxuryof time and we actually don't have the luxury of getting things wrong too manytimes you can get things wrong, Certainly like failure is a big part ofit, but it's not like you can have like never ending failure either. So, soit's important, like I think to set things up correctly from the beginningand when I took this job on, this was my first head of marketing rule. LikeI've been a VP before, but I've always reported into CMO and this time I waslike running marketing and I was market or number one at this company and wehad no product market fit and we really didn't have a product like we didn'thave anything. So I had to start from scratch on everything. And the beautyof that is, it really allows you to think about, well, okay, here's all thestuff that we need to do. Great. That's one part of it. But how do I build ateam who do I want on the team? What kinds of people, what kinds of ritualsdo I want on the team. And that just like took me down this rabbit hole oflike figuring that out for myself and a lot of the things that I've experiencethrough my career, I would just say like there's, I've definitely worked atcompanies that have been very hectic and chaotic and I would say for suredid not leave me in a good place and I wouldn't want to do that to anybodyelse and I would not want to work environment like that for anybody else.I think like I almost kind of had like this, like what not to do, had a verygood sense of what not to do, but I...

...wasn't quite sure of what to do. Um Ihad some innate I guess I should say intuitions, but I wasn't exactly surewhat to do. So anyway, I kind of like thought about it a lot and put a lot ofinto practice and like fast forward three years, like now super side andour team is like really built up and we're doing amazing. So I know thatsome of those things we put in place work, right? So like a lot of this iscoming from direct experience and not from like, I don't know, reading a book,although I did get some things from reading a book, so I guess there's alot of things to talk about. Maybe I'll start off first with this idea of justlike rituals and frameworks. I'm a big fan of that in general, not just on howto work, but also how to not get bogged down by reinventing the wheel each timeyou have to do something, it's sort of like in marketing, if you think aboutit, let's say you're doing like a product launch, once you've done aproduct launch, you know, okay, this is the playbook, these are the things thatI need to do, these are things I need to talk about, these are things I needto communicate. Oh, by the way, I have these channels, these worked on thatyou kind of develop that framework. Right? And then that playbook, you canjust repeat multiple times over with some tweaks depending on the uniquecircumstances that you're in. So the same kind of goes with like how you runa team, How does a team function, rituals and frameworks are reallyimportant. And by ritual, I just mean like the cadence of things likemeetings. What kinds of things you talk about in the meetings? What are thetypes of things you don't talk about in the meetings? I'll just give an examplefrom our world. We have a weekly marketing meeting The entire teamattends. We make sure that a couple of people are optional. But the onlyreason you would not come to the meeting is because you literally aretalking to a customer or that's an impending deadline or whatever. Butotherwise the entire team attends, even if the agenda isn't 100% to do withtheir day to day job. And it's just a great Place for everybody to connectonce a week, 100% remote to that face time is already kind of missing. Soit's a it's a good chance to connect and it's a great chance for the entireteam to know how are we doing. So, a big part of our ritual is meeting, butwe also look at our entire funnel, all our loops and how each of our KRS aredoing and each functional team leader runs through that, they'll be like,okay here, here's how we're doing on top of funnel legion. Here's how we'redoing from the bottom of funnel perspective, here's what we're doingfor customer education. This is the key are that we managed to move everyquarter, We set those KRS and those goals. Everybody has a KR that they ownthemselves. They may co own it with somebody else. An example of that couldbe your conversion optimization person. You're trying to improve our landingpage conversion from whatever 3% to 5% this quarter. But then the U. I.Designer on the team who helps with that would also have the same KRbecause they're joined at the hip, right? So whatever those things are,we've already decided them. And then the weekly we like literally runthrough them and say, hey, this is what's happened. Oh, I was going toship this thing, I was going to launch...

...this thing, but it got delayed and thenthat's an opportunity for people to try to help and unblock some of thosechallenges. So that that type of ritual has been really good for us. We haveother rituals as well. Um sometimes they're cross functional, sometimesthere are within the team and then there's like just like a use offrameworks in general and a framework could be anything, like, I'm sureyou've heard like people talk about their mental models and how they thinkabout things and that's basically what a framework is. It's a it just givesyou the again the ability to run really fast and unlock a lot of things. Youknow, we've been doing 2022 planning and we've been given our targets forexample, like okay, well you have to reach this this many millions in A. R.R by the end of 2022 you know, it's like it seems daunting when that targetis given to you but how I think about it is okay, I already have a frameworkfor growth here are my growth levers that currently let me see what happensif I'm able to isolate each of those growth levers and see if I can makeimprovements on each of them across the board. And then as I model that in aspreadsheet, it's not complicated. As I model that in a spreadsheet, I can sayrealistically okay if I do these 10 things well and if we're able to movethe needle on these 10 things, then we can reach our 100 million goal orwhatever it is, right? Like that suddenly becomes achievable and youknow exactly what the path did that is because you've built the growthframework. So that's just one example of a framework. So I'm a big, I'm a bigfan of that, I I have frameworks for stuff at home, how do my husband and Ido child care given that is the pandemic and how do we pass her backand forth? And you know, all of that stuff that's, that's not complicated,but it's crazy how many people fly by the seat of their pants. Absolutely. Sothese, to me of course, are absolutely genius. I'm like floored by this,especially because I'm may or may not be left to my own devices in thecategory of fly by the seat of my pants. Thankfully many many people around mewho think more like you, which is awesome. But I'm curious about theseframeworks, so obviously building them out takes time to think through thelevers, especially for this growth example. But more than that it's a, away of thinking that for somebody who maybe is more like me kind of morgueguts and gumption, maybe can you talk to me about what criteria do you needto know to build a framework or what are some of the elements of having afull picture for maybe marketing specific endeavors? Yeah, I don't knowif there's any criteria and like a framework can be as simple as like hey,if this then that right, that it can be as simple as that. So I don't thinkmaybe it's like a, it's almost like too...

...big a word and it doesn't do itselfjustice. It just means that you have some, what's a better way to put it?Like you have some kind of rules, It's kind of like the universe, right? Likeyou have gravity, it's like a constant gravity is not going to go away and nomatter where you go, it's like knowing those staples and those factors andbeing deliberate about thinking about them and accounting for them and thenbuilding everything else around it. There's only so much you can controland knowing what you can control helps and isolating those pieces of controlhelps. So if you can have whatever problem you're trying to solve in thiscase, I gave an example of how do I reach $100 million dollar goal yourproblem might be. How do I don't know, scale the number of podcasts I do everymonth, right? It's like, it's like a way to think about a problem and thenbreaking that down into something that's like repeatable and gives you away to think about them. It doesn't necessarily always give you the answer,but it's a way to think about something that makes so much sense. When we weretalking last time you coupled that idea with a common phrase that don't boilthe ocean, especially, I'm a big fan, especially, I'm a big fan of doing itis the biggest problem is that if you think about modern day work, especiallylike knowledge workers and again, unfortunately in startup land and intech, like there's this tendency to try to do too much, there's a tendency tochase design shiny objects sometimes, not because you want to, but justbecause some important person might come to you and say, hey, what aboutthis? And then you're just like, yeah, let me do that, that sounds great. Sothe, I guess the antidote to that is just like discipline and focus, youknow, and that's why I'm actually a super huge fan of this. Okay, our model,a lot of people hate on it. Like just the other day I saw a twitter thread onsome, some fancy pants celebrity person hating on Okay Rs and I'm just like,yeah, you don't really deploy it properly. It's probably that why youhate it, but okay, are such a great way to set like your areas of focus, yousay to yourself, you say to the team, here's the objectives, we're trying tomeet this this quarter this year or whatever your timeframe is and by theway, here are the five or six things that we're actually going to actuallygoing to try to move. These are the needles were trying to move and this isall we're going to do, I'm going to leave 20% of my time for some reactivestuff and for some random opportunistic stuff that happens like, okay, like youapproached me to do this podcast, I'm not going to be like, well that doesn'tsupport my KR, so I'm not going to do it right. Like there's like 20% of mytime and my brain that's set aside for moon shots and other fun stuff. But thebulk of my time is spent on the things that we've already agreed are going tobe worked on and it's not a task list. I think a lot of people say this is myobjective, these are the five things I'm going to do to reach it. That's nota good way to think about it. It's like...

...saying, hey, I'm going to define myobjective really, really well, very systematically. And I'm not going tobudge from the achievement of that objective. And I think that is what Imean by don't boil the ocean, don't try to do a million things. And I know manyof us don't have the luxury to think like that, but if you can do that foryou and your especially from the leadership position, you have theopportunity to do that for yourself and for your team. And it's something thatyou can sell the whole organization on. And that's why I have to say like ourour growth has been explosive and some of it's like good product market fitand some other interesting things. But I think a lot of it's actually comefrom just focusing on the right problems at the right time, so much ofit can be attributed to that. So I would just say, yeah, like especiallyin marketing and any go to market function. Yeah. Really just don't beprone to distractions and don't be prone to trying to do too much. That'sthat's it. That's like less than number two. I love that. Don't boil the ocean.And you actually you preempted my next question you've already answered thiswas really like what about those things that fall into your plate, those ideasfrom People higher up or something and that 20% of moonshots, fun thingsreactive and just other opportunities that are bound to come up and give youa lot of flexibility instead of thinking like well now the goalpostsare completely changed because someone else has come in and kind of redesignedpriorities you actually are allowed to continue to keep tracking towards yourgoals while being able to bend. Um and that's so I bet a lot of the pushbackon okay ours is like the perceived rigidity but really building in thatmargin allows for that undulation and like flexibility that has to happenwithin the workspace. Yeah, exactly. And as long as it's not a task list,like you're not agreeing on the plan on how to do it, you're agreeing on whatit is that you're trying to accomplish if that is set in stone or relativelyset set in stone, then how you get there is kind of up to you and just twodays ago, one really silly example but it might be pertinent here is, you knowour head of sales sent me how one other company that he came across does exitintent pop ups like it's just basically, you know, on the pricing page you'retrying to exit and this video pops up and it's like super fun and engagingand he loved it so much and he was like, we got to do this, this is important,we have to do video and blah blah blah and all this stuff and he sent it as anexample. So I was like cool thanks. Um showed it to the C. R. O. Team Zeroteam very rightly so says great, we are not running an exit intent experimentthis quarter. That is not a problem area for us. We are exit intentstrategy has actually paid off and we're really good. Like our conversionis really good on that. So it's actually not an area of focus for usbut I am going to put this on the backlog, we keep like like ideas lessthan a backlog list or we call it the...

...parking lot so it's in the parking lotbut we're not going to enact this for this for this quarter and that's greatbecause then I can go back to him and say, hey we heard you got it, it's inthe parking lot but we're not going to make movement on that this quarterbecause it's actually really not a problem in our exit intent is like damnfreaking good, right? So both parties are happy and we've gotten goodfeedback and insight. So that's that's just like a little little example, heyeverybody Logan was sweet fish here. If you're a regular listener of GDP growth,you know that I'm one of the co hosts of the show, but you may not know thatI also head up the sales team here at Sweet fish. So for those of you insales or sales ops, I wanted to take a second to share something that's madeus insanely more efficient lately. Our team has been using lead I. Q. For thepast few months and what used to take us four hours gathering Contact datanow takes us only one where 75% more efficient. We're able to move fasterwith outbound prospecting and organizing our campaigns is so mucheasier than before. I'd highly suggest you guys check out lead I. Q. As well.You can check them out at lead I Q dot com, that's L E A D I Q dot com.Alright, let's get back to the show. That's actually a phenomenal examplebecause it points out two things one that a lot of times when people makerecommendations, they really think like, oh what the heck, this is a great idea.Maybe this could be useful and they're passing it along. Not too make sure ithappens, but to offer an idea and throw something into the melting pot. And theother thing is that any new idea is a mirror up to what you already have inplace and for your C. R. O. Team to be able to say that's a great idea it'svery shiny new cool but actually we know what we have is working. They canrest easy knowing that we don't have to be distracted. You know that kind oflike Magpie syndrome or that raccoon thing where you can't let go of a shinyobject, they actually can know like the joy of missing out on some ideasbecause they fully Joma or whatever it is. Yeah that's all right because theyactually have an accurate picture of what's going on and what's effectiveand knowing that that works the same way if something needs to change in abetter idea rolls in that's brilliant. Yeah. And they may not know how thingsare going either. In this case we happen to say like hey it's workingwell but they could have easily said hey we have no idea this would be goodor bad and I'm still going to put it in the parking lot because this is not aarea, this is not an area of improvement that we've outlined thisthis year this quarter or whatever it is, it's not a KR that's importantright now I think like in a way it gives permission to people toabsolutely say no and keep going. Like every time some new thing comes upwhether the Ceo says that we ourselves...

...come up with a lot of our own ideas,like randomly, right? We have these like monthly water cooler chats and allsorts of stuff comes out of it. And like we do a separate, we don't stiflethe discussion then, but we'll do a separate evaluation of, hey, do any ofthese 15 ideas that came up in the water cooler chat, does anything move aKR And if the answer is no for all 15, then we park it. So it's just adisciplined approach to knowing what to do. How much do we want to change? Theplan does change in the plan actually give us outsized benefits at this pointin time. Right? And if the answer is yes, then we say, okay, let'sincorporate it and something else needs to fall off. But let's incorporate thisin. I'm curious if you could kind of paint a stark picture for us knowingthat you've come from companies that don't operate like this don't work likethis kind of because you like compare and contrast for a second, some of theresults or just even like the, the stress levels that have changed withoperating with discipline and with the structure versus like the everything isa priority. Everything, Sergeant. Listen, I'll just say that this is notlike this is partly like how a company operates on a company's culture, right?This is not like a person's fault. So I'll just preface it by saying that,But I would say like on my last job, I was 100% burnt out. I had developedinsomnia. I hadn't slept properly in six months. There were like literallybags under my eyes and I felt like I couldn't even walk a couple ofkilometers without huffing and puffing. Like literally my health haddeteriorated because like lack of sleep can actually do that. And I was alsotrying to get pregnant at the time and it was probably directly affecting myfertility eventually ended up getting I really have to have a baby, which I andI have a beautiful healthy baby now. But it's so crazy that something asfundamental as sleep can be disrupted by what goes on during the day and thatcan actually affect every part of your life and affect your healthyrelationships, your future prospects, that Children, everything, everythingprobably directly affected my ability to do a good job at work. They weredefinitely contentious situations which I think could have been avoided if Iwas in a better mood if I had gotten sleep. And it's very easy for managersand execs to say, well, nobody's telling me no one's got a gun to yourhead telling you to work 12 hours a day or whatever. And it's like, yeah,nobody is. But that's the environment that's been created and it's becauseit's not any one person's fault. It's literally because we're trying to doway too much and everything is important. There's no area ofprioritization and the team is not empowered to say no, the team doesn'thave a reason to say no. Everything, literally everything seemed importantbecause it was justified by saying, yeah, but only if we do this one littlething, it can give us a million bucks and it's like, well that's likeeverything. So and, and, and I'll also add by saying that this is, I think abig, this is the philosophy part of...

...marketing or really any or design aswell is sometimes you still can't do everything. Even if you have theability to hire a lot more people. I think a lot of companies unfortunatelyalso fall into this rabbit hole, which is okay, great. You're trying to, thescope has increased that much. Great. Let me help you, let me help you aremade up by giving you 10 more higher, so go higher, go do that. And then nowyou can do all these other things, right? And it doesn't work that way.Number one, it takes a really long time to hire and it takes again, brain yourbrain away from your day to day. Obviously hiring as its own process.You're jumping through all of these like interview stages, you gotta talkto a lot of people blah blah blah. There's a war for talent, but thoseissues aside, even if you were to hire those people, it doesn't necessarilyimmediately unlock like one block of productivity, right? Like it's not likewe're working in a factory lion setting. We're not car manufacturers where it'slike, oh great. If I have 10 more workers, it means they can fix 10 morecars. Like on going down the line where knowledge workers. So the economies ofscale are quite different. And I think worse in marketing, not worse, butdifferent in marketing is that we are a non homogeneous group of people. What'sa good example? If you look at sales teams or you look at customer successteams, we look at customer support teams. Those teams are made up ofpeople that look very, very similar. They have similar skill sets, they havesimilar backgrounds, They have similar archetypes, right? It's like, and youcan easily say, oh great, I have 10 more strategic accounts. Let me hire 10more customer success reps to dedicate one to each account. Boom. Problemsolved in marketing, it doesn't quite work that way. You can't say, hey, I'mgoing to hire 10 more marketers like which kind of marketers. And by the way,if I hire these 10 types of, I don't know, let's just say content marketersor brand marketers are performance, whatever it is. It's not like there's a1-1 correlation with unlocking like x number of dollars, right? It doesn'twork quite like that. So, so coming back to my original point, like it'sreally hard to um have an easy conversation around, hey, yeah, I wantyou to do these things and go higher so you can do these things. I thinkultimately the best way to move forward is sure you need to hire, um, and tryto unlock that resource in that budget. But at the same time be very clearabout what the areas of focus for this quarter or this year are. I soappreciate your perspective on the humanity of work and the fact that wehave personal lives outside of work, but ultimately that how work goesimpacts the rest of our life, it's the thing we do the most often. And assomebody who has struggled to sleep, I'm right there with you of like youroutlook on life can completely change depending on how many hours you got andand how rested you are and having those, those really valuable relationships andendeavors outside of work, thank you a...

...better worker. That's, that's so true.And you, you said it's so much more eloquently. I'm curious if, um, youcould kind of unpack a little bit, um, knowing that you were marketer numberone and you built out the team how you thought about thoughtfully recruitingand hiring the right people who maybe respected or wanted to emulate or matchyour work ethos as as much as your work ethic too, but especially that likephilosophy of focus and discipline. Yeah, for sure. And just to be clear,like I'm not saying don't work long hours because sometimes you absolutelyneed to, it's more that you need to be able to see that those long hours areresulting in something and they are being worked, you're you're spendingthat on the right things that's really like we worked really hard, certainquarters are like just not our business is seasonal, but There just tends to belike the ebb and flow that happens and yeah, a lot of our team is workingeasily 10-12 hours a day these days and December will be chilled, right? Likewe expect that. So yeah, coming back to your question actually, we we have anew leader on the team and he asked a question I think just publicly ontwitter and he kind of framed it as let me find this tweet, I think he said Iwas just looking at it the other day because it was interesting the way heframed it, I'll have to look forward, but I think he pretty much asked whatadvice do you have for a first time manager because he hasn't managed ateam before, he has been a leader in other ways and and but mainly anindividual contributor, really smart dude. Um and he asked us on twitter andI was like looking at all the responses and they were like they were just like,you know, some people were like don't micromanage and like don't do this anddo that and it was just like come on, I mean that's those are those, thosearen't incorrect. Absolutely, but how is that going to help a new manager?Right. And I just said to him, I think, I don't know if I said it on twitterbut I definitely said this to him in a one on one and I said like listen likenumber one, it's all about setting a good example. You need to set a goodexample and you need to treat people and recruit the kind of people that youyourself would want to be treated like if somebody empowered you and treatedyou a certain way, that's what you want to pass on essentially. And the adviceI gave to him was to cultivate like long term, at least cultivate honestyand transparency on the team and that includes transparency and honesty aboutthe work itself and being true, speaking about what it is that you'redoing and is it working, but also about yourselves? Like, so we do apersonality test for every new hire and it's not to say well this personalitysucks and this looks great like there's no such thing, but it's to understandwhat it is that they value and how they would fit into our sort of dynamic andour ecosystem. We find the most interesting things like a lot of peoplewho would come across as shy are...

...actually extremely, extremelyautonomous, extremely forward thinking and about their ideas standing up fortheir ideas, not at all conflict averse even though they're shy in theinterview, you know, so like it is kind of interesting to do those kinds oftests and, and, and knowing upfront, like what it is that you're potentiallygoing to expect from the style from a stylistic perspective from this person.So yeah, like I just said like create that sense of honesty and transparencyabout the work and also like how people operate and know that and part, I thinkpart two of that is if possible, try to give everybody on the team a strongsort of quarterback or a buddy almost like, you know, I think a lot of usdon't even take vacation properly because we're like, oh, if I go away,like what, who's going to do this, how is this going to happen? And it'sbecause most of us don't have backup, like most of us, we haven't hired theequivalent and really equivalent or like the equivalent of that person onthe team. So it's like who's going to do that. So even if even if you'rebuilding a team and in his case he's building a team of like a lot ofcontent marketers said, if everybody could have a buddy, that would beamazing so that people feel empowered that they can step away, but someoneelse can back them up, People get sick all the time, all sorts of stuffhappens and then also allows them an outlet to problem solved. Maybe vent ifthey're having a hard day rather than depend on their manager, which issometimes an awkward conversation. So I think that's, that's just like at amicro level, like a way to think about kind of team building and I would justsay like the bigger aspect of recruiting and building a team is justlike, again, being deliberate about organizational design. I do try to beopportunistic with hiring, like sometimes I'll just meet someone reallygreat who's just like kick at this thing and then we don't have a job forthat role, but because they're so amazing, I want them on the team. Sosometimes will opportunistically create like jobs for some of these smartpeople. But yeah, just again, being deliberate about how to set up yourteam for success, what does those, um, what is the organizational design looklike? It's great. I'm a big fan of like just organizing everything in a squadstructure. You might have heard people talk about pods and sales and even anengineering, they're very common to have pods. The thing would pods, Iguess maybe it's just norman clay church. But the thing with pods I findis that again, it's like a lot of homogenous people in the same group,whereas a squad is like a lot of different functional people in onealmost cross functional squad. So it's like, it's more like a work streamrather than a pod. Um, so at super side, we organized ourselves in these, inthese squads for example, we've put performance, marketing and conversionoptimization and product led growth all...

...of that at one squad. And there's areason for that because that style of thinking and that level ofexperimentation and how that team, uh, that that those groups of people there,the cadence of work is very conducive to those three functions that are notnecessarily directly related, but they kind of all operate the same way. Sothat's like one example of a squad and we have no good name for it. We kind ofcall it growth sometimes, but really it's performance, C R O and P L G.Right? And it's like no one would really see that in the same squad, butit works for us. And the cadence is basically the same and they'reextremely experimental. That group runs or ships and experiment every weekmultiple experiments every week. So that's, that's an example of a squad.How do you think about the buddy concept of the quarterback concept forpeople in leadership though? Like do you have a a buddy or a quarterback foryourself? Did that come you know? Yeah, I selected my own? Yeah. I was justlike, I need a buddy, can't be my manager were close, but it can't be myceo because ultimately like I can't actually complain to him all the time.So my buddy is our head of sales. He started before me, he knows the orderreally well, he knows our customers really well and him and I havecomplementary skill sets, we're at the same level, which helps. He can'tquarterback me if I get hit by a bus or something because he doesn't have thesame skill set as me, but because we talk so often, he knows a lot about howwe're operating and what are areas of priority are and vice versa. In fact,there used to be a weekly meeting that I used to run with his entire salesteam, which we've now changed for since, since a few months ago, but that was,that was great and in theory he could do the same the opposite way as well.So that works for us. It's hard, it's harder to do it at the leadership level,but it can be done and it's important, even though it's hard to be able to dothat, knowing that in the instances where you get hit by a bus or just needto take that time off or are called away to do something else. You, there'snot major things that our house just inside your head that nobody else couldexecute on or, or so it even gets into this, this idea of like institutionalinformation or like shared, shared information is probably better. Yeah, Iwould say. Yeah, absolutely, no, absolutely. I mean, I was on madly forfour months, like the world was fine, super side did really well actuallyduring the time that I was gone because, you know, we had set ourselves up forsuccess, we had the right people in place. My counterpart kind of took overthe Ceo knows marketing really well and it's very involved with marketing, sohe was able to contribute a lot and I was actually able to step away for fullfour months without things like cracking open, you know, and I checkedin with the team for the last few months, but I wasn't actively involved.So that actually gave me this, I mean,...

...it did kind of suggest that some thingswere going well and that we had set some things up correctly and with likea few hours of slack checking every single week. That was enough. That'sall that I really needed to do in between diaper changes or whatever,right? Like that wasn't that hard. That must be the best feeling as a leaderand the person who built this team to know that it's not even under your,under your watchful eye, their blossoming and thriving. And then evenwhen you can step away, things are still working, like that's really howyou must know this system is self sustaining and these people own theirwork and I'm sure that okay, our structure really keeps everybody onpace because that's ultimately what they're accountable to. That adds a lotof freedom. That's awesome. That's a lot of Exactly, There's this quote fromJames clear, he said something like I might be misquoting him. He said you donot rise to the level of your goals because he's basically trying to saygoals aren't enough, you don't rise to the level of your goals, you fall tothe level of your systems. So goals without a system is pointless. You needboth to work. I just looked it up, you nailed it, you nailed that quote, Youdo not rise to the level of your goals. You fall to the level of your systems.That's awesome. James clear is the bestselling author of Atomic habits. Ifanybody wants to check that book out, which I'm sure is something that islike right up your street and we know that is like, yeah, absolutely alongthe way. And so what we're talking about, oh my gosh, well this has beensuch an enlightening and awesome conversation. Um, that really just getsme super excited about what you're doing. It's super side for people whowant to learn more about you and super side where can they find you? So I'm ontwitter a lot. You can just find me it read a mother and then of course I'm onlinkedin on instagram the usual, but I'm pretty active on twitter. I like toengage with people there. So if you're on there, yeah, you can definitelyholler at me and of course if you are a marketer or a creative leader andyou're just trying to get a good design done and you don't have the resourcesor the ability to do it, you should probably go to super side dot com tocheck it out. Oh my goodness! Well it has been such a pleasure to have you onGDP growth. Likewise, thank you so much. One of the things we've learned aboutpodcast audience growth is that word of mouth works. It works really, reallywell actually. So if you love this show, it would be awesome if you texted afriend to tell them about it. And if you send me a text with a screenshot ofthe text you sent to your friend meta. I know I'll send you a copy of my book,Content-based networking, how to instantly connect with anyone you wantto know. My cell phone number is 4074933-8. Happy texting.

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