B2B Growth: Your Daily B2B Marketing Podcast
B2B Growth: Your Daily B2B Marketing Podcast

Episode 2054 · 6 months ago

Why Hype Is Misunderstood and a Force for Good

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

In this  24th episode of the #Books series, Douglas Burdett, Founder of ARTILLERY, and James Muir, author of "The Perfect Close" , recap some of the key ideas from the marketing and sales books recently featured on The Marketing Book Podcast.

Mhm. Hello and welcome to the BDB GrowthShow, Monthly Book talk. I'm Douglas Burnett, host of the marketing bookpodcast where each week I published an interview with the author of a newmarketing or sales book to help me and my listeners keep up with the latestideas and the quickly changing world of marketing and sales. And joining me ismy friend James, muir, author of The Perfect Close The Secret to closingsales. In this monthly episode of the GDP Growth Show, we recap some of thekey ideas from the marketing and sales books recently featured on themarketing book podcast. Now I read every book featured on the marketingbook podcast, but James read even more books than I do and he listens to everyepisode of the marketing book podcasts. I'm delighted that he can join me. Alot of listeners ask us for a book recommendations. So if either of us canrecommend any marketing or sales books or other resources for whateversituation you find yourself in or what you'd like to learn more about, pleasefeel free to connect with us on linkedin where we can chat and we'll doour best to get you pointed in the right direction. But please, for thelove of all that is Holy, please make sure to include a message with yourinvitation to connect on linkedin so we'll know you're not a filthy spammer.No spam. Yes, James, Welcome back to the BdB Growth Show Monthly Book Talk.Thank you Douglas. I do read every book and I listen to every episode becauseyou always have the best guests on your show. I tell you I I am so like amagnet for great books and great interviews. I don't know, it's like agift that you're well, I'll tell you what I think it is. I speak with somany authors at the end of the interview and they'll go, you know whatI did a lot of interviews, but you're the only person who actually read thebook, like, like the word gets out and it's like, I remember saying that. So,so people are like, well, actually going to go on that guy's becausethey'll actually he actually reads the book. So maybe whatever it takes, youknow? But I I feel so lucky to be able to interview these these authors on theshow. Clearly they're not threatened by my intelligence because oppositesattract, but maybe that whatever it takes, okay, man, word's gotten out,word's gotten out. Everybody knows you really read the book, you really knowwhat you're talking about. Well, I'm having fun doing it. I just love doingit. And this is great too. So, in this episode of Book Talk, we're gonna talkabout the four most recent books featured on the marketing book podcast,which are the experience economy competing for customer time, attentionand money by joseph Pine and James Gilmore. After that we've got the hypehandbook 12, indispensable success, Secrets from the world's greatestpropagandist self promoters, cult leaders, mischief makers and boundarybreakers by Michael F Shine and somebody's got to get an award for thatsubtitle. That's all I can say. It's great trying to deal with the ministryof comments. Oh my gosh, it's awesome! After that, we've got the ultimateguide to google ads by Perry, Marshall, Mike Roads and brian Todd. And thenfinally, we have selling from the heart how your authentic self cells you byLarry Levine. So, our first book is the experience economy competing forcustomer time, attention and money by joseph Pine and James Gilmore. And Iactually remember reading the first edition of this book when it first cameout and I loved it back then. And so I was really excited to read this secondedition. So tell us a little bit about your interview with James Gilmore. Yeah,so This book, I think the first edition came out in 1999 and what they did isthey updated it over the years and they updated again just two years ago, and Ilearned about it from Darryl Amy, who is the author of Revenue Growth Engine,which was also the last time I think past episode of the marketing bookpodcast and I've read a number of books about customer experience, but it neverreally sunk into my thick head as much as it did with this particular book.And I guess it's sort of the way they frame it, Not to take anything awayfrom all these other really, really good books about customer experiencethat have been on the show. But basically, if you go back, like, Idon't know, 200 years, there were there were commodities and then they werelike, finished goods, you know, like in the once the Industrial Age started,there were goods and then services very much in the 20th century. And theyactually explain why the service economy really his I mean, it's stillthere, but it's no longer on the rise. And now we're in the experience economy,and he talks about how just a couple of the key ideas that really took hold forme is that people will skimp now on goods or services in order to have abetter experience. So if you are only selling a good or a service, you'regonna be compromised financially. In other words, you're you're you'refighting a losing battle instead. You need to do everything you can to, tomake what you're selling an experience. So you think of an experience. Thegreatest examples like a Disney, you know, you go to a Disney theme park,even the way they fold the towels in your hotel rooms and experience, it's,they're, they're extremely well trained,...

The whole organizations engineered thatway. A lot of hospitality organizations have that travel like SouthwestAirlines is a little bit more of an experience. They're not, you know, youlike them for that. And one of the interesting ideas in the book, he talksabout how you should always ask yourself what would we do differentlyif we charged admission. And that was a very interesting concept, because heeven talked about how Disney had, Disney and Nike had these big flagshipstores in new york and Chicago and it didn't cost anything to get in thereand they kind of missed the boat by not charging people to come in or at leastcharging for some aspect of the store. And now they both sort of devolved intothis basically merchandise stores because people will, they want to paymore for a good experience. And another concept from the book that really Ireally liked was he talks about how to many companies will give away anyexperiences they add in order to better sell their goods and services. And hesays that's a race to the bottom two. In other words, you should be thinkingfirst and foremost about what what's an experience that we can give people. Andhe also explains that even the most mundane transactions can be turned intomemorable experiences. So people will remember the experiences that they haveand they'll they'll pay for that, you know, you think back two years ago, theadvent of these theme restaurants and it was an interesting experience. Andthe problem that he outlines there along with a lot of companies is thatthey don't continue to update the experience, it's just kind of, it's hotfor a while and then and then it peters out. But the other, I mean it's wherethe money is, he talks about how experiences are much more profitablethan selling services. So it was a meeting with maybe even the lesscomplex product. Right? So he is a comparison of like base camp versusother project management tools which are base camp isn't nearlysophisticated, it just is really good at like four or five things. Yes. Yes.And uh one other one quote from the book, he talks about those that thrivewill do so because they treat their economic offering as a rich experienceand not a glorified good or celebrated service and will stage it in a way thatengages the individual and leaves behind a memory. And a big part of thesecond half of the book, he talks about how theater is such agreat paradigm for the way companies should be creating experiences. If youthink about like a Disney for instance, to go back to them, um, those arethough, they don't call them employees, they call him cast members and they'reall trained and they understand what their particular role is. And he hasseveral chapters that explain how this, how this works at companies that aredoing great, producing great experiences. And even talks aboutcompanies now they don't have human resourcesdepartments, they have casting departments, it's a completelydifferent approach. But then you look at that and go, yes, of course, that'swhy it works. And that's why I've been buying from from companies like that.So it's a paradigm. Yeah, he and he and at the end, when you're on yourinterview anyway, he was recommending books about drama, right? Yeah. Inorder to so it's just an interesting paradigm that applies well to the wholeexperience. You know, one of the things he mentions, because I'm talking to asales guy, he talks about how if a company designs a worthwhile experience,customers will gladly pay the company to essentially sell to them. Isn't thatinteresting? Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Right. And there are a couple othercompanies and I'm trying to think of uh the mortgage experience with rocketmortgage. I don't know that that was in the book, but that's a very, verydifferent experience than almost any other mortgage company. They havereally figured out how to you actually use them recently, didn't you? Yeah.Yeah. I was I was stunned by how different the experience was just by,you know just I mean it's money right? Either way you're just buying money. Soit's mostly about the rate. But man, oh man was the experience. I would highlyrecommend it. Yeah, interesting. And it's also like, I don't think I canever buy, I have an 18 year old car and I think the main reason why because Idon't want to have to go through the experience of buying another new car.But over the years, last couple of years I bought cars for my kids atCarmax and I just thought you know, I think I'm just going to buy from thembecause it was such a better experience. I even sold a car through them and Ijust thought, oh boy, what a relief. Those guys have embraced this principle.What did you think of his concept of advertising? To experience ratio? Tryto remember basically. It's the concept is you offer experiences that customersreally want to do instead I have to do. Right. Right, right. Yeah. That was thememory goes first James. Um, no, he talks about how advertising is actually,it's now become like a phony this...

...machine where people, they canexperience these things and they're going to tell other people about it.And that's why you're you'll hear people like me or a bunch of theauthors that I've interviewed talked about how the experience is really thatyour marketing now or your customers, are you marketing now very closelyrelated to the word of mouth marketing. Right. Yes. Yes. But I love this bookthe first time around. I would say that the what of the experience economy, ofthe dynamics. I don't think that's really changed at all since the firstedition. But what has changed is the how to do all that? And this newedition addresses that fantastically. So, I thought this was a fantastic read.Yeah. And I it's not like they're trying to persuade anyone, they'relaying out facts explaining, look, this is what's going on. And it was like,that's why it was such a head slapping experience for me, because of course,that's how Oh, yeah, Now I now I see. So not only is a customer experience,very, very important, but delivering experiences. The biggest takeaway fromme was how much more profitable it is. Right? And that's the evolution ofeverything to, right. That's where it's all going. So you can get either be onboard or get left behind. Yes. All right, well, next up, we've got thehype handbook 12 indispensable Success, Secrets from the world's greatestpropaganda, self promoters, cult leaders, mischief makers and boundarybreakers by Michael F shine. And like I said, somebody should get a prize forthat. If he, if he's the one that came up with that subtitle, he deserves anaward because I'm sure he did. He is a phenomenal writer. And as I joked withhim, I can't remember doing the interview or not or beforehand. I justsaid your book was a joy to read and it was written so much better than it hadto be. It was, it was an easy reading. It is kind of a bigger book too. But Imean it was just so engaging right before I read it. I kind of had anegative connotation with the word hype, you know? But I mean if Michael doesn'tmind me saying, I would say that this book is really more about influence alittle bit like Children's books than it is about hype the way wetraditionally think about it. So, but he's a very interesting person. So,tell us about your interview. Yes. So he talks about how the perception ofhype is exactly what James Miller just said. It's associated with ne'er doWells And it's disparage. But he explains that it's, you know, somewhatart and science here. But he explains these 12 ways that hype artists use itfor good or bad. And he would like more people to use it for good. And I thinkhe makes the case for that quite well. So you have to get over the fact thathype is considered, you know, an eye rolling concept. But then he goesthrough and this is what was so interesting, goes through history. Imean all the way back to before before. Yeah, he likes using a really oldhistory. Yeah. And and all the way up to the 20th century and, and so forth.And I had to laugh. I'm going to read this because the book talks aboutvarious hype artists, including people like Donald trump, Barack, Obama, kimjong il, joseph goebbels, Hitler's pr man, louis, Farrakhan, Gary, Vaynerchuk,tim Ferriss, Bernie Madoff, johnny rotten, Andy Warhol, the frenchrevolution, the bolshevik revolution and the Church of scientology. So talkabout covering the waterfront and he's not saying all these people are are badobviously, but he's, he was showing how they were able to use hype for good orbad and very, very uh entertaining. And so there's, there's 12 different wayswe won't go into all of them. But a couple of them, they were veryinteresting. And almost every chapter as I read through it, I went kind oflike with the experience economy, Oh, that's how they do it. It was likewatching a penn and teller performance where they show how they're doing thetrick. And one of the first things he talked about, which is the, and he hasa firm that helps clients do these kinds of things to promote themselvesand some very, very successfully. And the, one of the areas that is very,very important. But it gets the most pushback on from clients is this ideaof, uh, the great unifier of hatred. So he talks about, you've got to pickfights and it doesn't necessarily mean you pick a fight with the competitordown the street. You could be picking a fight with some frustration that a lotof your customers have or yeah, or a problem or some aspect of a frictionand that type of thing. And You do have to pick the right enemy. Um, there's athere's a, he explains that he explains how to go about finding the right kindof him because he shows examples of people that picked the wrong enemy.Don't be a troll. Yeah. Right, right. But you can pick something. Like, Ithink you just mentioned um, 37 signals the base camp people. I'm pretty surehe mentioned him in his book where they were, they picked a fight with complexproject management software and Base camp is a very simple one. And so theywere picking a fight with, with that...

...aspect. So picking a fight is almostrequired and a lot of these overlap a certain a bit. Another thing he talkedanother chapter is he talks about how the best way to get people to do whatyou want them to do is to have them get themselves there in steps so small thatthey don't even know it is happening. Which reminded me of this book calledThe Perfect Close by James new york, right? Uh uh no, it really was thatcame to mind, but for instance, he talks about the Church of scientologyat one point and he said, you know, they have some beliefs and someconcepts that people find really quite unbelievable at first and that's whythey don't mention them when they get people to join. It seems like more of auh you know, uh more of a holistic wellbeing, time management, you know,positive thinking, psychology. Yeah, yeah. And then they go and then theygave examples of other cults in the past that showed how, you know, youdon't try and change people too much all at once and why, why that works usso well. One other idea that I see in the news all the time, particularlythis last year with the coronavirus is basically the reporting of it where hetalks about people can't resist the persuasive appeal of a flawed orfraudulent idea when packaged in hard science and oh yeah, he said make itscientific. Yes. Even if it's not just say, you know, but he shows how peopleswallow that hook line and sinker when it's got some sort of science wrappedin, even if it's not related to what you're we're talking about. Even ifit's junk science, right? They're completely abandoned common sense. Aslong as she said, hey, somebody did a study or we did a survey and this isthe thing. Yeah. Oh my goodness. So there was back to drama with theexperience economy. He talks about how hype artists are really good at two ofthe key facets of drama which are tension and mystery. So you think aboutany kind of think about Shakespeare or any kind of movie, uh die hard,anything like that, there's tension and mystery. They don't tell you right awaywhat's gonna what's going to happen. And he said the hype artists are reallygood at bringing out the tension and and kind of holding back the mystery.And he says, regardless of their subject matter, these professionalthought leaders invariably inject whatever constructive or inspirationalmessages they there are that there's a conveying with doses of doom I think of,you know, religious leaders, he talks about religious leaders because hetalks about all of these sentiments serve to make you squirm beforerelieving the tension. And he even said this is what I thought it would beinteresting to you. He said, inflicting this kind of pain is something yourcustomers, clients and prospects want you to do even if they don't know it.But I remember every principle in this book must be used for good for good.That's right. That's right. Right. I think he wrote this with some a littlebit of trepidation and you know what it reminded me of a book that was on theshow several years ago called hooked by near AOL. And he is a great book, bestselling book. It explains how companies make addictive products, right? And Imean social media, but other things as well. And he includes at the end oftheir saying, now listen, you got to use this for good, you gotta useremember that right, adding gambling elements to games. Yeah, yeah, yeah.And then he later wrote another book called in distractible in part becauseyou felt so bad about you know how to defend yourself against those things.He wasn't teaching companies who are already making addictive products howto do anything because they already know how to do that. So back to myfriend uh near, but the other thing he talked about was this idea of coming upwith a solution to a complex problem and making it really almost too simpleand clear and example he gave was, You know, somebody could come out and writea book now and you know, great leadership for the 21st century, itwould be kind of a ho hum, But instead you write a book like the seven habitsof highly effective people, so it becomes much more concrete even if it'snot or the other great example he has was tim Ferriss the four hour workweek.Yeah, so nobody is going to have that four hour work week. But they've beenaspire to that. And they were there was an allure of that simplicity. Peopleare attracted to this idea that there's an absolute truth, there? S an absolutetruth. So, another concept that I thought was very interesting and hetalks about promoting the ideas of...

...fulfillment successor salvation throughtoil is the cheapest and most efficient way for a hype artist to get others tospread their message for them. I know you're thinking Gary Vaynerchuk rightthere and he talks about by fetishizing hard work hype artists find theirfollowers bind their followers to them ever more tightly. And he talks abouthow if you can find ways to put your clients and customers to workimplementing your ideas rather than always doing the implementing for them.They will keep coming back for more. And the example he gives there and thecamera if we talked about this in the interview but he belonged to thisorganization that helped agency people and he was paying a good bit of moneyand he would go to these quarterly meetings and they showed him exactlywhat to do and people would come in not having done everything they weresupposed to do because they would get distracted and they run into businessand they were apologizing saying, I'm sorry, I wasn't getting all this done,but they were charging enough so that he was trying to take it seriously. Andthat is what really got me quite interested because I mean the agencyworld and we when we've done work for a for clients in the past and I overexaggerated by saying, you know, we're leaving at the loading dock for them,they never take ownership of it, and they say, you know, I wrote a check andI was expecting something to happen here, and it's like, well, it's kind ofnot have marketing works anymore if advertising still work that well, I'dbe doing it. And generally, and and this has talked about in MarcusSheridan's book. They ask you answer the second edition, he talks about howin the past, and this has been my experience to when you try and do allthis work for a client, and they're not involved in it, and they're not takingpartial ownership of it. It usually falls through, it doesn't work out. Andthat's why this this was further affirmation of, look, we're going tostart getting out of that, we're going to say, look, we're going to help youdo it, but we're gonna do it so that you guys will be able to take overquickly. And the irony is that the hard work itself makes people believe evenmore in the cause, Right? So it's like a double plus. I'm doing some work forbe any right now. It's a networking organization and it's exactly that,that the chapter level, it's all volunteer, nobody's getting paid forany of that stuff. And yet they are very structured. They have expectationsfor you to be in the group and all that. And it totally works very effective,you know, at the risk of sounding sacrilegious. There was one of thethings in this book where he talks about churches and bibles, but hedoesn't mean necessarily religion or an actual, like The old, he calls theseven habits of bible basically. Exactly. He, so he talks about how thesome of the best hype artists they produce a bible okay, like the fourhour workweek or the seven habits of highly effective people or, or whatever,basically the truth that you hold To be like the 10, Not the 10 commandments,but there's probably something of B and where they have some sort of Yeah, theydo directive saying this is what's important and this is what works. Andthen he talks about how starting a church and again, a church meaning agroup of believers of something, uh, not necessarily religion. He saysthat's the best growth hacking method ever invented because they go andevangelizing being is a great example. Weight watchers is a great example, allkinds of things like that. Yeah, absolutely. Well, his, uh, there's somuch to this. There's for the listeners. There are 12 total principles that he'susing uh, in the book, right? That he calls hypes hype strategies I think iswhat they're called. And I think we got maybe half of those so fantastic if youlike this kind of stuff, which is all about influence and persuasion and thatkind of thing. And psychology, which I do, you'll find it very fascinating. Um,here's one takeaway for the listeners is if you're trying to better yourself,he suggested that you pay attention to what the gurus are actually doing, notnecessarily saying, but what they're actually doing and observe their hypetechniques, uh, in this context and learn from that, right? And the onething that he thought listeners could do to start is, you know, what's thepoint of view? And you ask yourself what, you know, what's the point ofview in your industry that's accepted as the truth, right? And an irrefutabletrip that you just disagree with. That's a pretty good place to start toremember. The very first thing we talked about was, you know, make war,not love, pick an enemy, pick an enemy. So this is this is a great place tostart for your contrarian view, right? The enemy that you're gonna fight. Veryentertaining read. Oh man. The whole is I would say this book fits somewherebetween Baldini's influence and maybe the Heath brothers made to stick andmaybe Seth Godin's. This is marketing, but it touches on a ton of useful toolsfor promoting ideals with a unique perspective. And I think what separatesthis book maybe from a number of other books out there that covers some ofthese topics is that he demands that every, every reader must use thesetools for good. Yes, and I would throw in a bit of Malcolm Gladwell too,because he just like that list. I read all those people, He covers them andmany more. Yes, absolutely. So, absolutely great book, veryentertaining and the interview that you did with his entertaining too. So besure to catch that. Alright, well next up we've got uh ultimate guide togoogle ads by Perry Marshall, Mike roads and brian Todd and I think, youknow, I'm a big fan of Perry Marshall...

...and his cadre of experts and that he coauthors his books with and this book is really no exception to that. So, tellus about your interview with Mike Roads. Well, there was another book that cameout quite recently that Perry Marshall wrote with bob rigorous and one of theco author whose name I can't recall at the moment and I apologize for that,but I interviewed bob rigorous and it was all about the ultimate guide tofacebook advertising and what was so interesting about that book as well asthis one is that the book and particularly the interview was we onlytalked about things that were relevant even if you're not a facebookadvertisers, you're not a google advertiser and there is so much tolearn about marketing and sales from studying what works on the cutting edgeof like facebook advertising or google advertising. Both books were great atsimply straight up marketing as opposed to thinking of them as only google adsare only facebook ads. Right? Yes, Well they don't work if you don't have goodmarketing the beginning. Yeah, fundamentals. And so that I heard fromso many listeners who said they learned so much from these, both thoseinterviews because it was a great reminder of what's what's reallyimportant couple things that were just really important. And again, it's notabout click this button, click this button is the thing about googleadvertising is the most successful people are the best at figuring outyour prospects intent. So once again, those that understand their customersbetter when period full stop and they actually sell more to even, you know,in the sales world. And another integrate concept, he says, rememberyour ads only job is to get them to click on it. It's your websites job topersuade them and take action. And by, there's a lot of people are thinking,oh, that's all we got to do. Well wait a minute. Is your is your website evensquared away? So the sales equivalent of that is don't sell on the phone. Yousaid to get the appointment? Yes, Yes, exactly, exactly, exactly. And uh hetalks in the book, I mean, we're talking entire chapters here about USPS,unique selling propositions. Old harkening back to the days of RosserReeves at the ted bates agency. But you know, they explain that the businessventures that fail the fastest are the ones that have no U. S. P. And a anyselling proposition is a statement. You choose to embody what differentiatesyour products and your brand from your competitors. He's fairly constructivethere in that chapter to write because he says sometimes USP is not a singlething. It might be a combination of things or or or the exact market thatyou serve or I mean there's a he's very creative about the ways that you candevelop this if you think you're in a commodity space. Yeah. You know whatelse is interesting about google advertising? It's a great way to testthings. You can even test your USP for very little money just by testing whowho's clicking on on what and and just hours later you could know yeah, withinhours you can even test out company product names or service names or thekinds of things that people would have paid big bucks to research companies inthe past. You know, basically the really smart google advertising people,they don't presume to know these things. They just figure out what works andwhat doesn't. Maybe they try to understand the intent, but they go withwith, they do a lot of great testing. Another thing that he talks about adisturbing number of advertised google advertisers and this could be googleshopping ads could be, you know, the paper clicks on the search engines, itcould be uh, google display network, it could be advertising on Youtube. Sothere's a lot of different ways that you can, you can advertise but he talksabout conversion tracking. You've got to connect it to your google analyticsand figure out what what people are doing. Because there's a lot of peoplethat are running these ads and not connecting it to figure out whathappens after they click on the add and what's even worse their advertisersthat are sending people simply to their home page, there's not a specificlanding landing pages are not hard to set up. You should have a landing pagefor each of your different ads so you can see what what happens. Anotherthing that he talks about here are the keywords and he explains keywords andthey're not this mysterious thing that you know I think a lot of people havehad maybe some bad experiences with S. E. O. People that maybe didn't knowwhat they were doing or didn't know how to explain it or but he talks aboutkeywords, he explains that what was so interesting about that is even if youaren't a google advertisers, the more you understand about keywords, the moreeffective you're gonna be as a content marketer and generating content to getfound on search engines. So yeah sc Oh please. So another thing that wasreally, really important and if you are the ceo of a company and you know yourpeople are doing, you know let's say search advertising paper click youshould say are you guys doing...

...conversion tracking? The good ones?Will say yeah we're doing that. We're not just trying to figure out whathappens afterwards. Another thing is re marketing where you place a pixel onsomeone's website. The same with facebook advertising where you can forfree you can people that come to your site you can then advertise that andthey don't convert, you don't capture their email address. You place a pixelon their site and their computer device, whatever they're using. And then whenthey go to facebook, they're going to see ads for you. So they're kind of,you start getting followed around and you do it just enough. So it's notcreeping people out and you know, but it's really, really effective and youshould be doing re marketing if you're doing any kind of google advertisingand it's not that hard to do. And it really, really makes a big difference.And I mean, I mean guilty if you want to use that term of clicking on an ador going to a website at some point and moving on and then I saw the ad overthe next couple of weeks and then ultimately it was reminded about it andlooked into it again and bought it. So it wasn't creepy. And I yeah, Iappreciate it. But you know, another thing, a similar thing he talked aboutin the book, they have an entire chapter, okay, this is a book on googleads, write an entire chapter on email marketing. That's not google as andYoutube advertising, Youtube advertising all this stuff. But if youare doing any kind of advertising on google and you are not doing emailmarketing, you're doing it wrong, you're wasting your money. It was avery good chapter on what works well. And they really zeroed in on what workswell with email marketing. And I'll just give you a hint, keep it human,don't You're not going to bore people have some something that seemsrealistic and, and interesting. I thought they did a they did a great job.You know, at the end of his book, this is the biggest, I think it's the big hehas the biggest google advertising agency in Australia. It's still one ofthe biggest in the world. And he has a whole chapter on what you need to do ifyou want to hire a google ad agency. And what was probably surprising tosome readers is he saying, try to do it yourself at first so that you'll startto understand and benefit from it. Don't completely outsource this tosomeone else because there's so much that your organization can learn. Let'ssay you need somebody like their firm to get you started, that's fine, butstay involved because there's a lot that you're going to learn about yourcustomers, that if you all sort of outsource it to an agency, you're notgoing to benefit from that. So I thought that was very interesting aswell. Yeah, not the least. There was is the lifetime value of your customer,which helps you justify all the spin that you do elsewhere, Right? So yeah,that's one of the first concept that they cover in the book important. Ithink that's true. Yeah, I forgot to mention that. And that's one that is ina number of books and people seem to forget about it. And I've even spokento Cfos say, what's the lifetime value of your customer? This one fella, Not adumb guy, but he's got a head in front of it that way. Well, we keep ourcustomers for about 20 years and when they spend about X amount each year, Isaid, Okay, so if you can just get one, do you realize it's worth many millionsof dollars? Yeah. Oh, I haven't been accounting for it that way. You know,maybe that gives you the justification to go out and use revenues to generatethe client over a period of time, it's going to generate profit, you know,another thing that I failed to mention, which is just amazing and oftenforgotten about google advertising is that the better your google ads work,the lower the price you're gonna pay, it gets cheaper if you've got the rightcombination of you, you understand the clients, your customers search intent,you create ads that are effective, you bring them to your site, you get themto take action. I mean, google can see all this. They want people to have agood experience, you know, finding what they're looking for, even if it's an ador buying something. And he said it was sort of like you run a Tv commercialfor your car dealership on the local television station and itworks so well that the television station says, you know, that's workingso well, we're gonna charge you less for it. There's no one, no one elsedoes that. Yeah, Yeah. It's the magic of on and and you know, you don't payif they don't click it also. Right? So it's that's the beauty of onlineadvertising. Well, there's so much of this book. His one takeaway was kind ofback to what you're saying about testing, be open minded, bi curious Btest if you've tested before, guess what things have changed. It's timeit's time to test again, right? Maybe it's a B. T. Always be testing, right?Yeah, Yeah. Never, never stopped doing that. And uh constant iteration, butalways always be testing things, Even little things because you start tostumble upon things that make your that make you more successful. Yeah. Alittle bit like the facebook book, this book really isn't just an in depthexplanation of google ads, it's really a book about successful marketingprinciples and in that sense, I think...

...it kind of over delivers on what I wasexpecting, right? Not just how to use google ads, but also how it leaves youwith a great understanding of what makes great online marketing. Yeah.Yeah. And so they're not and and he's even saying he's even saying, look,it's not all about google ads either. In other words, he'll be giving a talksomewhere and they'll say we're only doing google ads and he'll say, wellare you all doing any facebook advertising? Oh no, he's like, no,there's a lot of you need to be really no, no, no. Yeah, totally worthwhilebook. Excellent book. And I like that you've incorporated couple of thesebecause it's an area that I don't always study. So good choice. Alright,Last up, we've got selling from the heart how your authentic self cells youby Larry Levine. And I think you know that Larry and I are friends, so fulldisclosure. I think that selling from the heart kind of cuts right to thecore of what's wrong with most sales and marketing today. I'll tease peoplewith that. But maybe give us the low down on your interview with Larry Levy.Yeah, maybe you should do it. It's funny. I was at the outbound conference,the last one that was in person. So what is that like two years ago? Yeah.And I remember seeing you standing there and you were talking to LarryLevine and I walked by and I thought oh man that's Larry Levine, I shouldintroduce myself. And I thought no, no, come on, you don't want people you knowbothering him. It's like and I joked because he lives in L. A. He's aDodgers fan. It was like, you know, you see celebrities all over Los Angelessince like I don't bother and let them eat their meal, you know? So now I'veinterviewed him, but I still haven't met in person. But it was a greatinterview and he's very forthcoming and he does explain that something he talksabout the end of the book, uh this terrible malady that's going around theworld in sales and it's not coronavirus, it's called commission breath. Uh huh.And if you're being used that phrase, yeah, if you're being inauthentic,people can smell that a mile away, don't try and fool humans. And so hereally steered into that over the over the years and said, you know, I'm justI really I'm going to try and help people. And he wanted to be kind, hebecame more interested in his customers and just honest with folks. And thereare a couple just real pearls that I pulled out of this, even things that,yeah, it works great with sales, but it also works well with marketing. And oneof the ones that really just hit me over the head was a great salespersonis a student of their clients. Problems. They can never get enough informationabout the problems their clients have and how they can better understand themand how they might be able to help them. And basically, I'm somebody who isbeing sold to all the time. A lot of listeners probably are. I know you are.How rare is it for somebody to come forward and saying, I think I kind ofunderstand what some of the issues are that you're facing. Never. Yeah, I gotgood stuff here. You need to do. You want my stuff? Yeah. You want my stuff?Let me talk about me, let me talk about, you know, just the self orientation is,you really can see it two miles off and There's, there's so many rich things inhere and it's, it's funny how he ties together so many things from the over50 sales books that have been on the marketing podcast. But another thingthat I really liked was he talked about the biggest problem with salespeopletoday. Is there consistently inconsistent with how they go aboutdeveloping business, which I mean like uh Jeb blunt for instance, he'll saythe number one reason for sales in the primary reason for failure in sales isa failure to prospect period. And Mark Connor, all these guys, they'll,they'll, they'll all talk about that you have to be consistent. Um, it'ssort of like learning a new language or working out, but what they do is theygo feast and famine. And he says that's one of the, one of the biggest problems.And another thing that I found interesting that I've I've seen inseveral other books is he says that the one skill that every salesperson needsto develop and really develop well how to use the phone, I just can't know.I'm somebody who came a lot came around while we had was the phone. But I Icould see how uh that's such a challenge, maybe more for youngerpeople, a whole new generation of people that don't even know what that'slike. Yeah, so it's, they'd rather just send things with text or socialmessages or emails. Right? Yeah, yeah. And another concept that's in the bookthat it's funny. After I interviewed him, I had a listener contact me andsay, hey, we're looking for somebody to talk to us about, you know, a servantleadership. And I said, oh my goodness, I just interviewed him. He talks aboutservant led, uh, sales leadership. And he talks about being service orientedrather than being reactive. Yeah. And modeling the behavior that you'relooking for, right? So if you're a sales leader, you want to be modelingthe behavior that you're exiting from your team, it's not do what I say, dowhat it do what I do, right? And also, he talks about providing service,meaning, not being reactive, but instead uh anticipating what a customermight be needing beforehand. He even...

...says to ask them that, right? Yeah. Imean, that's his his one thing he thought listeners could do is hey,become sales minded servant sales. My discernment, right? Ask customers howthey would like to be served and their jaw will drop because no one has everasked this question to them, right? They can't even believe that you'reasking it. Oh yeah, I would be, I would be the same way and there's just somany great gems in here. And again, this is another one that applies tocontent. It applies to sales. He says, instead of worrying about beinginteresting, we need first to be interested. So some interest in yourcustomer, whether you're in sales or marketing and of course to do that, youhave to get to know them. That's why he talked about referrals as such aproblem because he, he argues that sales people just don't know theircustomers as well as they think they do. Yeah. He very often refers to thesekinds of sales people that are thinking about themselves and pretending to like,you know, to care about the customer is empty suits. Yes, that's right. That'sright. He even had a sticker he sent me that said no empty suits. No emptysuits. I thought he made it just for me. But apparently he uses at all uses itall the time. You know, one other super tactical, great idea he had was thatwhen you're selling to an organization, You need to get intimately acquaintedwith at least six people inside every single one of your accounts. And I justthat I thought back and I thought, yep, that's how I lost a few over the overthe years because I couldn't I couldn't get through or I never bothered to, asthey say, walk the halls, just find out what's going on. Sometimes we call thatselling high and wide, right? Because you only have one connection and thenthat connection connection moves on or something goes trouble with thatrelationship. You're gone. Yeah. That's all you had. That was the only, what'sthe thing called? The Piton? When you're climbing a mountain face, youonly have one when it goes you go. Yeah. And uh it's almost like I I could justsee this on a KPI sheet. Like how many people do you know at your new client?Oh, just the person I'm selling too. Well, you better get down there andstart figuring out how to to do more of a swarming offense there. And how canyou really say that you're trying to really serve this customer? If you onlyunderstand the perspective of one person inside this organization, Right?So I think that speaks to his whole point about being authentic of beinggenuine is you have to really have to understand what they're trying to dobecause sometimes even your best coach may not know exactly all the right pathto take to navigate the company and everything. Yeah. Sorry. If you hear myco host for my podcast barking in the background, there it is some federalemployee in a blue suit delivering mail is just size and nuts. The darn guykeeps showing up even though he barks at him. What's in that box? Yes, that'sright. A couple other things he talked about which were just universal, notjust for sales. He says it's the post sale where the magic happens. And hesaid that was always his secret sauce. You know, it's, it's not about gettingthe money moving on. The real money is in after you make that first sale, getfurther in, meet those other six people find out what's going on in theorganization. Once you're in, that's an invaluable opportunity that is toooften squandered by somebody who runs off to the next to the next sale. Butbefore we wrap up, I've just got to say, I think there was only like 10 chaptersand one of the chapters was all about continuing education. And so peoplelistening to this are probably into educating themselves. But he talksabout how If you're a sales person and you have not spent one of your incomeof your own money on your success, you're not educating yourself. But hetalks about one of the big things that helped him a lot and I know this soundslike a, you know, a plug for the market book podcast, but he said he startedreading a lot, He read a lot of books, he still does read a lot of books, buthe just talks about all these different ways that you should be continuing toeducate yourself, don't wait for your company to be educating your yourself.And another thing that he he even says like, what was the last podcast youlistened to or what was the last sales book you read? And uh I mean even aknuckleheaded podcast host can read one book a week. I know a guy who does that.So think about fishing books are, I mean, not to get off topic here, butyou've got somebody who's crammed probably 10, 15 years worth ofexperience in into just a few pages that you can read and you know, in aweek, right, where else you gonna get that for 15 bucks or whatever does itcost? Right. I mean time in to to benefit out? You probably can't bebooks. Yeah, a lot of these books, it's almost like the I think I I oftenwonder if the ink is made from the author's blood because they pourthemselves into it. I've never written a book. I probably never will. But Icould, you can't imagine what it's...

...right like writing a book and they It'slike you're spending 4-6 hours 1-1 with this author who is sharing with youwhat works just, it's amazing. That's why I loved the podcast because I justand the more I learned, the more I realized, I don't know, so, but youknow, another chapter, an entire chapter was on content. Okay, now thisis a sales guy. He is like one of the masters of the universe, but he talksabout how sales professionals learn how to digitally fish in the same onlineocean that their clients and prospects educate themselves in. And he, evenwhen he does training, he'll ask people, do you think it's easier or moredifficult now to prospect? And it's interesting to hear what people say?They all say. It's harder. He says he thinks it's easier now because you canget so much while it's harder to get through. You can start to find out moreinformation about the prospect or their prospects company and you know, even ifyou are not producing your own content or you don't have a marketingdepartment or whatever. He talks about how every salesperson can build theirown content library, because every you collect all this information that yourprospects can find helpful. Well, you can use that. You don't have to usethat for just one prospect. You can use it for all your prospects. And it'sinteresting. I mean, he was enormously successful and he's basically showingyou what he did. So I'll stop talking about it. But it's a tough industry ina tough industry Tuesday. Yes, copy machines, yes, office equipment, thatkind of stuff, right? Like pretty commoditized. But that's why him beingauthentic and trying to help Being with the customer, right? Being genuine isthe differentiator, right? It wasn't the equipment. So his one takeaway forlisteners was just to hold yourself 100 accountable for your own personalgrowth. Right back to that continuing education you mentioned a minute ago.So obviously I'm biased because he and I are friends. But I personally thinkthat every sales professional, both old news should read the book. I reallythink marketers can benefit from from it as well because it's about beinggenuine and authentic. And that leads to all the most effective activities inboth sales and marketing in my past. Absolutely. I've got hundreds of bookslike thinking back up you just said, and I even I have a feeling that I getmore marketing ideas for reading sales books sometimes that I might get frommarketing books. It's not a fair comparison because I'm learning aboutsomething. But when I read a sales book, all I can think about is, oh man, theycould these guys could be using this or this would be helpful for them or thiskind of content or you know, that type of things. Well, it's one thing Ireally love about your show is that it's all a continuum right from thevery, very top of the funnel, all the way to the very bottom of the funneland really post funnel and you're not just focusing on one little pieces ofthat. Right? So I think your your show is really the most broad spectrum andbeing able to touch all those things. Yeah, I know we're supposed to mitchbut I do this for fun and that's why I'm I'm always so surprised how manysales people listen to the marketing podcast. Either that it was just morevocal because I I hear from these people, but it also brings to mind thestory from Mark Hunters last book of Mine for sales where he was consultingwith a client and there were these two young salespeople and they were doingreally, really well to the point where the client thought that these guysmight be doing something illegal. Did you hear this story? Yes, I rememberthis. And so they said to Mark like Mark, you know while you're doing thisproject we need you to kind of keep an eye on these two because we just don'tknow what they're doing. And it turned out they were spending all their freetime with the marketing people. Yeah. See there you go. So it was like yousay, the best earners are the best learners. Yes, that's right. The bigearners are the big learners of the big earners. That's right. Yes. Well thatis it this month's books all phenomenal, all phenomenal. I'll former X and Ilove them all. Um, what do we got coming up on the market? But podcasts?Well, if this episode wasn't long enough, next time we're gonna talkabout five books, we'll try to go fast. Yes, I'm sorry. Um, I know. Well,hopefully somebody listen to this while they were doing it a long drivesomewhere. I hope there is somebody driving these days. The first issustainable marketing. How to drive profits with purpose by Michelle,Carville, Gemma, Butler and Grant Evans. They're british and, and grantguarantee he's well, so I, I hope I got his name right, binge marketing. Thebest scenario for building your brand by car lane post MMA, My first dutchauthor I've interviewed activate brand purpose, how to harness the power ofmovements to transform your company by scott goodson and chip walker. Soundsfascinating. Yeah. Uh the undefeated marketing system, How to grow yourbusiness and build your audience using the secret formula that electspresidents by Phillip stutts And...

...finally marketing 5.0 Technology forhumanity by Philip Kotler. The father of modern marketing. He's going to be90 years old this spring and his co authors are Hermawan cartagena and Iwan Setiawan and I interviewed dr Kotler for episode 100 a few years agoabout marketing four point oh, so anyway, that's it for this month's Btwo B growth Show Book Talk. Thanks for staying with us to learn more about themarketing book podcast, visit marketing book podcast dot com and to learn moreabout James in his excellent book, the perfect clothes visit pure mirror dotcom. And that's spelled P U R E M U I R dot com. And as I mentioned earlier, ifeither of us can recommend any marketing or sales, books or otherresources for whatever situation you find yourself in or what you'd like tolearn more about, please feel free to connect with us on linkedin where wecan chat and we'll do our best to get you pointed in the right direction. Butplease please include a message with your invitation to connect on linkedin.Otherwise we're gonna, we may miss it and we're going to just assume europe afilthy spam. But and remember the words of the late great Jim Rohn who saidformal education will make you a living self education will make you a fortune,Okay. Yeah. one of the things we've learnedabout podcast audience growth is that word of mouth works. It works really,really well actually. So if you love this show, it would be awesome if youtexted a friend to tell them about it. And if you send me a text with ascreenshot of the text you sent to your friend meta, I know I'll send you acopy of my book, content based networking, how to instantly connectwith anyone you want to know. My cell phone number is 40749033 to 8. Happytexting. Mhm Yeah.

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