Why Hype Is Misunderstood and a Force for Good

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

In this  24th episode of the #Books series, Douglas Burdett, Founder of ARTILLERY, and James Muir, author of "The Perfect Close" , recap some of the key ideas from the marketing and sales books recently featured on The Marketing Book Podcast.

Mhm. Hello and welcome to the BDB Growth Show, Monthly Book talk. I'm Douglas Burnett, host of the marketing book podcast where each week I published an interview with the author of a new marketing or sales book to help me and my listeners keep up with the latest ideas and the quickly changing world of marketing and sales. And joining me is my friend James, muir, author of The Perfect Close The Secret to closing sales. In this monthly episode of the GDP Growth Show, we recap some of the key ideas from the marketing and sales books recently featured on the marketing book podcast. Now I read every book featured on the marketing book podcast, but James read even more books than I do and he listens to every episode of the marketing book podcasts. I'm delighted that he can join me. A lot of listeners ask us for a book recommendations. So if either of us can recommend any marketing or sales books or other resources for whatever situation you find yourself in or what you'd like to learn more about, please feel free to connect with us on linkedin where we can chat and we'll do our best to get you pointed in the right direction. But please, for the love of all that is Holy, please make sure to include a message with your invitation to connect on linkedin so we'll know you're not a filthy spammer. No spam. Yes, James, Welcome back to the BdB Growth Show Monthly Book Talk. Thank you Douglas. I do read every book and I listen to every episode because you always have the best guests on your show. I tell you I I am so like a magnet for great books and great interviews. I don't know, it's like a gift that you're well, I'll tell you what I think it is. I speak with so many authors at the end of the interview and they'll go, you know what I did a lot of interviews, but you're the only person who actually read the book, like, like the word gets out and it's like, I remember saying that. So, so people are like, well, actually going to go on that guy's because they'll actually he actually reads the book. So maybe whatever it takes, you know? But I I feel so lucky to be able to interview these these authors on the show. Clearly they're not threatened by my intelligence because opposites attract, but maybe that whatever it takes, okay, man, word's gotten out, word's gotten out. Everybody knows you really read the book, you really know what you're talking about. Well, I'm having fun doing it. I just love doing it. And this is great too. So, in this episode of Book Talk, we're gonna talk about the four most recent books featured on the marketing book podcast, which are the experience economy competing for customer time, attention and money by joseph Pine and James Gilmore. After that we've got the hype handbook 12, indispensable success, Secrets from the world's greatest propagandist self promoters, cult leaders, mischief makers and boundary breakers by Michael F Shine and somebody's got to get an award for that subtitle. That's all I can say. It's great trying to deal with the ministry of comments. Oh my gosh, it's awesome! After that, we've got the ultimate guide to google ads by Perry, Marshall, Mike Roads and brian Todd. And then finally, we have selling from the heart how your authentic self cells you by Larry Levine. So, our first book is the experience economy competing for customer time, attention and money by joseph Pine and James Gilmore. And I actually remember reading the first edition of this book when it first came out and I loved it back then. And so I was really excited to read this second edition. So tell us a little bit about your interview with James Gilmore. Yeah, so This book, I think the first edition came out in 1999 and what they did is they updated it over the years and they updated again just two years ago, and I learned about it from Darryl Amy, who is the author of Revenue Growth Engine, which was also the last time I think past episode of the marketing book podcast and I've read a number of books about customer experience, but it never really sunk into my thick head as much as it did with this particular book. And I guess it's sort of the way they frame it, Not to take anything away from all these other really, really good books about customer experience that have been on the show. But basically, if you go back, like, I don't know, 200 years, there were there were commodities and then they were like, finished goods, you know, like in the once the Industrial Age started, there were goods and then services very much in the 20th century. And they actually explain why the service economy really his I mean, it's still there, but it's no longer on the rise. And now we're in the experience economy, and he talks about how just a couple of the key ideas that really took hold for me is that people will skimp now on goods or services in order to have a better experience. So if you are only selling a good or a service, you're gonna be compromised financially. In other words, you're you're you're fighting a losing battle instead. You need to do everything you can to, to make what you're selling an experience. So you think of an experience. The greatest examples like a Disney, you know, you go to a Disney theme park, even the way they fold the towels in your hotel rooms and experience, it's, they're, they're extremely well trained,...

The whole organizations engineered that way. A lot of hospitality organizations have that travel like Southwest Airlines is a little bit more of an experience. They're not, you know, you like them for that. And one of the interesting ideas in the book, he talks about how you should always ask yourself what would we do differently if we charged admission. And that was a very interesting concept, because he even talked about how Disney had, Disney and Nike had these big flagship stores in new york and Chicago and it didn't cost anything to get in there and they kind of missed the boat by not charging people to come in or at least charging for some aspect of the store. And now they both sort of devolved into this basically merchandise stores because people will, they want to pay more for a good experience. And another concept from the book that really I really liked was he talks about how to many companies will give away any experiences they add in order to better sell their goods and services. And he says that's a race to the bottom two. In other words, you should be thinking first and foremost about what what's an experience that we can give people. And he also explains that even the most mundane transactions can be turned into memorable experiences. So people will remember the experiences that they have and they'll they'll pay for that, you know, you think back two years ago, the advent of these theme restaurants and it was an interesting experience. And the problem that he outlines there along with a lot of companies is that they don't continue to update the experience, it's just kind of, it's hot for a while and then and then it peters out. But the other, I mean it's where the money is, he talks about how experiences are much more profitable than selling services. So it was a meeting with maybe even the less complex product. Right? So he is a comparison of like base camp versus other project management tools which are base camp isn't nearly sophisticated, it just is really good at like four or five things. Yes. Yes. And uh one other one quote from the book, he talks about those that thrive will do so because they treat their economic offering as a rich experience and not a glorified good or celebrated service and will stage it in a way that engages the individual and leaves behind a memory. And a big part of the second half of the book, he talks about how theater is such a great paradigm for the way companies should be creating experiences. If you think about like a Disney for instance, to go back to them, um, those are though, they don't call them employees, they call him cast members and they're all trained and they understand what their particular role is. And he has several chapters that explain how this, how this works at companies that are doing great, producing great experiences. And even talks about companies now they don't have human resources departments, they have casting departments, it's a completely different approach. But then you look at that and go, yes, of course, that's why it works. And that's why I've been buying from from companies like that. So it's a paradigm. Yeah, he and he and at the end, when you're on your interview anyway, he was recommending books about drama, right? Yeah. In order to so it's just an interesting paradigm that applies well to the whole experience. You know, one of the things he mentions, because I'm talking to a sales guy, he talks about how if a company designs a worthwhile experience, customers will gladly pay the company to essentially sell to them. Isn't that interesting? Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Right. And there are a couple other companies and I'm trying to think of uh the mortgage experience with rocket mortgage. I don't know that that was in the book, but that's a very, very different experience than almost any other mortgage company. They have really figured out how to you actually use them recently, didn't you? Yeah. Yeah. I was I was stunned by how different the experience was just by, you know just I mean it's money right? Either way you're just buying money. So it's mostly about the rate. But man, oh man was the experience. I would highly recommend it. Yeah, interesting. And it's also like, I don't think I can ever buy, I have an 18 year old car and I think the main reason why because I don't want to have to go through the experience of buying another new car. But over the years, last couple of years I bought cars for my kids at Carmax and I just thought you know, I think I'm just going to buy from them because it was such a better experience. I even sold a car through them and I just thought, oh boy, what a relief. Those guys have embraced this principle. What did you think of his concept of advertising? To experience ratio? Try to remember basically. It's the concept is you offer experiences that customers really want to do instead I have to do. Right. Right, right. Yeah. That was the memory goes first James. Um, no, he talks about how advertising is actually, it's now become like a phony this...

...machine where people, they can experience these things and they're going to tell other people about it. And that's why you're you'll hear people like me or a bunch of the authors that I've interviewed talked about how the experience is really that your marketing now or your customers, are you marketing now very closely related to the word of mouth marketing. Right. Yes. Yes. But I love this book the first time around. I would say that the what of the experience economy, of the dynamics. I don't think that's really changed at all since the first edition. But what has changed is the how to do all that? And this new edition addresses that fantastically. So, I thought this was a fantastic read. Yeah. And I it's not like they're trying to persuade anyone, they're laying out facts explaining, look, this is what's going on. And it was like, that's why it was such a head slapping experience for me, because of course, that's how Oh, yeah, Now I now I see. So not only is a customer experience, very, very important, but delivering experiences. The biggest takeaway from me was how much more profitable it is. Right? And that's the evolution of everything to, right. That's where it's all going. So you can get either be on board or get left behind. Yes. All right, well, next up, we've got the hype handbook 12 indispensable Success, Secrets from the world's greatest propaganda, self promoters, cult leaders, mischief makers and boundary breakers by Michael F shine. And like I said, somebody should get a prize for that. If he, if he's the one that came up with that subtitle, he deserves an award because I'm sure he did. He is a phenomenal writer. And as I joked with him, I can't remember doing the interview or not or beforehand. I just said your book was a joy to read and it was written so much better than it had to be. It was, it was an easy reading. It is kind of a bigger book too. But I mean it was just so engaging right before I read it. I kind of had a negative connotation with the word hype, you know? But I mean if Michael doesn't mind me saying, I would say that this book is really more about influence a little bit like Children's books than it is about hype the way we traditionally think about it. So, but he's a very interesting person. So, tell us about your interview. Yes. So he talks about how the perception of hype is exactly what James Miller just said. It's associated with ne'er do Wells And it's disparage. But he explains that it's, you know, somewhat art and science here. But he explains these 12 ways that hype artists use it for good or bad. And he would like more people to use it for good. And I think he makes the case for that quite well. So you have to get over the fact that hype is considered, you know, an eye rolling concept. But then he goes through and this is what was so interesting, goes through history. I mean all the way back to before before. Yeah, he likes using a really old history. Yeah. And and all the way up to the 20th century and, and so forth. And I had to laugh. I'm going to read this because the book talks about various hype artists, including people like Donald trump, Barack, Obama, kim jong il, joseph goebbels, Hitler's pr man, louis, Farrakhan, Gary, Vaynerchuk, tim Ferriss, Bernie Madoff, johnny rotten, Andy Warhol, the french revolution, the bolshevik revolution and the Church of scientology. So talk about covering the waterfront and he's not saying all these people are are bad obviously, but he's, he was showing how they were able to use hype for good or bad and very, very uh entertaining. And so there's, there's 12 different ways we won't go into all of them. But a couple of them, they were very interesting. And almost every chapter as I read through it, I went kind of like with the experience economy, Oh, that's how they do it. It was like watching a penn and teller performance where they show how they're doing the trick. And one of the first things he talked about, which is the, and he has a firm that helps clients do these kinds of things to promote themselves and some very, very successfully. And the, one of the areas that is very, very important. But it gets the most pushback on from clients is this idea of, uh, the great unifier of hatred. So he talks about, you've got to pick fights and it doesn't necessarily mean you pick a fight with the competitor down the street. You could be picking a fight with some frustration that a lot of your customers have or yeah, or a problem or some aspect of a friction and that type of thing. And You do have to pick the right enemy. Um, there's a there's a, he explains that he explains how to go about finding the right kind of him because he shows examples of people that picked the wrong enemy. Don't be a troll. Yeah. Right, right. But you can pick something. Like, I think you just mentioned um, 37 signals the base camp people. I'm pretty sure he mentioned him in his book where they were, they picked a fight with complex project management software and Base camp is a very simple one. And so they were picking a fight with, with that...

...aspect. So picking a fight is almost required and a lot of these overlap a certain a bit. Another thing he talked another chapter is he talks about how the best way to get people to do what you want them to do is to have them get themselves there in steps so small that they don't even know it is happening. Which reminded me of this book called The Perfect Close by James new york, right? Uh uh no, it really was that came to mind, but for instance, he talks about the Church of scientology at one point and he said, you know, they have some beliefs and some concepts that people find really quite unbelievable at first and that's why they don't mention them when they get people to join. It seems like more of a uh you know, uh more of a holistic wellbeing, time management, you know, positive thinking, psychology. Yeah, yeah. And then they go and then they gave examples of other cults in the past that showed how, you know, you don't try and change people too much all at once and why, why that works us so well. One other idea that I see in the news all the time, particularly this last year with the coronavirus is basically the reporting of it where he talks about people can't resist the persuasive appeal of a flawed or fraudulent idea when packaged in hard science and oh yeah, he said make it scientific. Yes. Even if it's not just say, you know, but he shows how people swallow that hook line and sinker when it's got some sort of science wrapped in, even if it's not related to what you're we're talking about. Even if it's junk science, right? They're completely abandoned common sense. As long as she said, hey, somebody did a study or we did a survey and this is the thing. Yeah. Oh my goodness. So there was back to drama with the experience economy. He talks about how hype artists are really good at two of the key facets of drama which are tension and mystery. So you think about any kind of think about Shakespeare or any kind of movie, uh die hard, anything like that, there's tension and mystery. They don't tell you right away what's gonna what's going to happen. And he said the hype artists are really good at bringing out the tension and and kind of holding back the mystery. And he says, regardless of their subject matter, these professional thought leaders invariably inject whatever constructive or inspirational messages they there are that there's a conveying with doses of doom I think of, you know, religious leaders, he talks about religious leaders because he talks about all of these sentiments serve to make you squirm before relieving the tension. And he even said this is what I thought it would be interesting to you. He said, inflicting this kind of pain is something your customers, clients and prospects want you to do even if they don't know it. But I remember every principle in this book must be used for good for good. That's right. That's right. Right. I think he wrote this with some a little bit of trepidation and you know what it reminded me of a book that was on the show several years ago called hooked by near AOL. And he is a great book, best selling book. It explains how companies make addictive products, right? And I mean social media, but other things as well. And he includes at the end of their saying, now listen, you got to use this for good, you gotta use remember that right, adding gambling elements to games. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then he later wrote another book called in distractible in part because you felt so bad about you know how to defend yourself against those things. He wasn't teaching companies who are already making addictive products how to do anything because they already know how to do that. So back to my friend uh near, but the other thing he talked about was this idea of coming up with a solution to a complex problem and making it really almost too simple and clear and example he gave was, You know, somebody could come out and write a book now and you know, great leadership for the 21st century, it would be kind of a ho hum, But instead you write a book like the seven habits of highly effective people, so it becomes much more concrete even if it's not or the other great example he has was tim Ferriss the four hour workweek. Yeah, so nobody is going to have that four hour work week. But they've been aspire to that. And they were there was an allure of that simplicity. People are attracted to this idea that there's an absolute truth, there? S an absolute truth. So, another concept that I thought was very interesting and he talks about promoting the ideas of...

...fulfillment successor salvation through toil is the cheapest and most efficient way for a hype artist to get others to spread their message for them. I know you're thinking Gary Vaynerchuk right there and he talks about by fetishizing hard work hype artists find their followers bind their followers to them ever more tightly. And he talks about how if you can find ways to put your clients and customers to work implementing your ideas rather than always doing the implementing for them. They will keep coming back for more. And the example he gives there and the camera if we talked about this in the interview but he belonged to this organization that helped agency people and he was paying a good bit of money and he would go to these quarterly meetings and they showed him exactly what to do and people would come in not having done everything they were supposed to do because they would get distracted and they run into business and they were apologizing saying, I'm sorry, I wasn't getting all this done, but they were charging enough so that he was trying to take it seriously. And that is what really got me quite interested because I mean the agency world and we when we've done work for a for clients in the past and I over exaggerated by saying, you know, we're leaving at the loading dock for them, they never take ownership of it, and they say, you know, I wrote a check and I was expecting something to happen here, and it's like, well, it's kind of not have marketing works anymore if advertising still work that well, I'd be doing it. And generally, and and this has talked about in Marcus Sheridan's book. They ask you answer the second edition, he talks about how in the past, and this has been my experience to when you try and do all this work for a client, and they're not involved in it, and they're not taking partial ownership of it. It usually falls through, it doesn't work out. And that's why this this was further affirmation of, look, we're going to start getting out of that, we're going to say, look, we're going to help you do it, but we're gonna do it so that you guys will be able to take over quickly. And the irony is that the hard work itself makes people believe even more in the cause, Right? So it's like a double plus. I'm doing some work for be any right now. It's a networking organization and it's exactly that, that the chapter level, it's all volunteer, nobody's getting paid for any of that stuff. And yet they are very structured. They have expectations for you to be in the group and all that. And it totally works very effective, you know, at the risk of sounding sacrilegious. There was one of the things in this book where he talks about churches and bibles, but he doesn't mean necessarily religion or an actual, like The old, he calls the seven habits of bible basically. Exactly. He, so he talks about how the some of the best hype artists they produce a bible okay, like the four hour workweek or the seven habits of highly effective people or, or whatever, basically the truth that you hold To be like the 10, Not the 10 commandments, but there's probably something of B and where they have some sort of Yeah, they do directive saying this is what's important and this is what works. And then he talks about how starting a church and again, a church meaning a group of believers of something, uh, not necessarily religion. He says that's the best growth hacking method ever invented because they go and evangelizing being is a great example. Weight watchers is a great example, all kinds of things like that. Yeah, absolutely. Well, his, uh, there's so much to this. There's for the listeners. There are 12 total principles that he's using uh, in the book, right? That he calls hypes hype strategies I think is what they're called. And I think we got maybe half of those so fantastic if you like this kind of stuff, which is all about influence and persuasion and that kind of thing. And psychology, which I do, you'll find it very fascinating. Um, here's one takeaway for the listeners is if you're trying to better yourself, he suggested that you pay attention to what the gurus are actually doing, not necessarily saying, but what they're actually doing and observe their hype techniques, uh, in this context and learn from that, right? And the one thing that he thought listeners could do to start is, you know, what's the point of view? And you ask yourself what, you know, what's the point of view in your industry that's accepted as the truth, right? And an irrefutable trip that you just disagree with. That's a pretty good place to start to remember. The very first thing we talked about was, you know, make war, not love, pick an enemy, pick an enemy. So this is this is a great place to start for your contrarian view, right? The enemy that you're gonna fight. Very entertaining read. Oh man. The whole is I would say this book fits somewhere between Baldini's influence and maybe the Heath brothers made to stick and maybe Seth Godin's. This is marketing, but it touches on a ton of useful tools for promoting ideals with a unique perspective. And I think what separates this book maybe from a number of other books out there that covers some of these topics is that he demands that every, every reader must use these tools for good. Yes, and I would throw in a bit of Malcolm Gladwell too, because he just like that list. I read all those people, He covers them and many more. Yes, absolutely. So, absolutely great book, very entertaining and the interview that you did with his entertaining too. So be sure to catch that. Alright, well next up we've got uh ultimate guide to google ads by Perry Marshall, Mike roads and brian Todd and I think, you know, I'm a big fan of Perry Marshall...

...and his cadre of experts and that he co authors his books with and this book is really no exception to that. So, tell us about your interview with Mike Roads. Well, there was another book that came out quite recently that Perry Marshall wrote with bob rigorous and one of the co author whose name I can't recall at the moment and I apologize for that, but I interviewed bob rigorous and it was all about the ultimate guide to facebook advertising and what was so interesting about that book as well as this one is that the book and particularly the interview was we only talked about things that were relevant even if you're not a facebook advertisers, you're not a google advertiser and there is so much to learn about marketing and sales from studying what works on the cutting edge of like facebook advertising or google advertising. Both books were great at simply straight up marketing as opposed to thinking of them as only google ads are only facebook ads. Right? Yes, Well they don't work if you don't have good marketing the beginning. Yeah, fundamentals. And so that I heard from so many listeners who said they learned so much from these, both those interviews because it was a great reminder of what's what's really important couple things that were just really important. And again, it's not about click this button, click this button is the thing about google advertising is the most successful people are the best at figuring out your prospects intent. So once again, those that understand their customers better when period full stop and they actually sell more to even, you know, in the sales world. And another integrate concept, he says, remember your ads only job is to get them to click on it. It's your websites job to persuade them and take action. And by, there's a lot of people are thinking, oh, that's all we got to do. Well wait a minute. Is your is your website even squared away? So the sales equivalent of that is don't sell on the phone. You said to get the appointment? Yes, Yes, exactly, exactly, exactly. And uh he talks in the book, I mean, we're talking entire chapters here about USPS, unique selling propositions. Old harkening back to the days of Rosser Reeves at the ted bates agency. But you know, they explain that the business ventures that fail the fastest are the ones that have no U. S. P. And a any selling proposition is a statement. You choose to embody what differentiates your products and your brand from your competitors. He's fairly constructive there in that chapter to write because he says sometimes USP is not a single thing. It might be a combination of things or or or the exact market that you serve or I mean there's a he's very creative about the ways that you can develop this if you think you're in a commodity space. Yeah. You know what else is interesting about google advertising? It's a great way to test things. You can even test your USP for very little money just by testing who who's clicking on on what and and just hours later you could know yeah, within hours you can even test out company product names or service names or the kinds of things that people would have paid big bucks to research companies in the past. You know, basically the really smart google advertising people, they don't presume to know these things. They just figure out what works and what doesn't. Maybe they try to understand the intent, but they go with with, they do a lot of great testing. Another thing that he talks about a disturbing number of advertised google advertisers and this could be google shopping ads could be, you know, the paper clicks on the search engines, it could be uh, google display network, it could be advertising on Youtube. So there's a lot of different ways that you can, you can advertise but he talks about conversion tracking. You've got to connect it to your google analytics and figure out what what people are doing. Because there's a lot of people that are running these ads and not connecting it to figure out what happens after they click on the add and what's even worse their advertisers that are sending people simply to their home page, there's not a specific landing landing pages are not hard to set up. You should have a landing page for each of your different ads so you can see what what happens. Another thing that he talks about here are the keywords and he explains keywords and they're not this mysterious thing that you know I think a lot of people have had maybe some bad experiences with S. E. O. People that maybe didn't know what they were doing or didn't know how to explain it or but he talks about keywords, he explains that what was so interesting about that is even if you aren't a google advertisers, the more you understand about keywords, the more effective you're gonna be as a content marketer and generating content to get found on search engines. So yeah sc Oh please. So another thing that was really, really important and if you are the ceo of a company and you know your people are doing, you know let's say search advertising paper click you should say are you guys doing...

...conversion tracking? The good ones? Will say yeah we're doing that. We're not just trying to figure out what happens afterwards. Another thing is re marketing where you place a pixel on someone's website. The same with facebook advertising where you can for free you can people that come to your site you can then advertise that and they don't convert, you don't capture their email address. You place a pixel on their site and their computer device, whatever they're using. And then when they go to facebook, they're going to see ads for you. So they're kind of, you start getting followed around and you do it just enough. So it's not creeping people out and you know, but it's really, really effective and you should be doing re marketing if you're doing any kind of google advertising and it's not that hard to do. And it really, really makes a big difference. And I mean, I mean guilty if you want to use that term of clicking on an ad or going to a website at some point and moving on and then I saw the ad over the next couple of weeks and then ultimately it was reminded about it and looked into it again and bought it. So it wasn't creepy. And I yeah, I appreciate it. But you know, another thing, a similar thing he talked about in the book, they have an entire chapter, okay, this is a book on google ads, write an entire chapter on email marketing. That's not google as and Youtube advertising, Youtube advertising all this stuff. But if you are doing any kind of advertising on google and you are not doing email marketing, you're doing it wrong, you're wasting your money. It was a very good chapter on what works well. And they really zeroed in on what works well with email marketing. And I'll just give you a hint, keep it human, don't You're not going to bore people have some something that seems realistic and, and interesting. I thought they did a they did a great job. You know, at the end of his book, this is the biggest, I think it's the big he has the biggest google advertising agency in Australia. It's still one of the biggest in the world. And he has a whole chapter on what you need to do if you want to hire a google ad agency. And what was probably surprising to some readers is he saying, try to do it yourself at first so that you'll start to understand and benefit from it. Don't completely outsource this to someone else because there's so much that your organization can learn. Let's say you need somebody like their firm to get you started, that's fine, but stay involved because there's a lot that you're going to learn about your customers, that if you all sort of outsource it to an agency, you're not going to benefit from that. So I thought that was very interesting as well. Yeah, not the least. There was is the lifetime value of your customer, which helps you justify all the spin that you do elsewhere, Right? So yeah, that's one of the first concept that they cover in the book important. I think that's true. Yeah, I forgot to mention that. And that's one that is in a number of books and people seem to forget about it. And I've even spoken to Cfos say, what's the lifetime value of your customer? This one fella, Not a dumb guy, but he's got a head in front of it that way. Well, we keep our customers for about 20 years and when they spend about X amount each year, I said, Okay, so if you can just get one, do you realize it's worth many millions of dollars? Yeah. Oh, I haven't been accounting for it that way. You know, maybe that gives you the justification to go out and use revenues to generate the client over a period of time, it's going to generate profit, you know, another thing that I failed to mention, which is just amazing and often forgotten about google advertising is that the better your google ads work, the lower the price you're gonna pay, it gets cheaper if you've got the right combination of you, you understand the clients, your customers search intent, you create ads that are effective, you bring them to your site, you get them to take action. I mean, google can see all this. They want people to have a good experience, you know, finding what they're looking for, even if it's an ad or buying something. And he said it was sort of like you run a Tv commercial for your car dealership on the local television station and it works so well that the television station says, you know, that's working so well, we're gonna charge you less for it. There's no one, no one else does that. Yeah, Yeah. It's the magic of on and and you know, you don't pay if they don't click it also. Right? So it's that's the beauty of online advertising. Well, there's so much of this book. His one takeaway was kind of back to what you're saying about testing, be open minded, bi curious B test if you've tested before, guess what things have changed. It's time it's time to test again, right? Maybe it's a B. T. Always be testing, right? Yeah, Yeah. Never, never stopped doing that. And uh constant iteration, but always always be testing things, Even little things because you start to stumble upon things that make your that make you more successful. Yeah. A little bit like the facebook book, this book really isn't just an in depth explanation of google ads, it's really a book about successful marketing principles and in that sense, I think...

...it kind of over delivers on what I was expecting, right? Not just how to use google ads, but also how it leaves you with a great understanding of what makes great online marketing. Yeah. Yeah. And so they're not and and he's even saying he's even saying, look, it's not all about google ads either. In other words, he'll be giving a talk somewhere and they'll say we're only doing google ads and he'll say, well are you all doing any facebook advertising? Oh no, he's like, no, there's a lot of you need to be really no, no, no. Yeah, totally worthwhile book. Excellent book. And I like that you've incorporated couple of these because it's an area that I don't always study. So good choice. Alright, Last up, we've got selling from the heart how your authentic self cells you by Larry Levine. And I think you know that Larry and I are friends, so full disclosure. I think that selling from the heart kind of cuts right to the core of what's wrong with most sales and marketing today. I'll tease people with that. But maybe give us the low down on your interview with Larry Levy. Yeah, maybe you should do it. It's funny. I was at the outbound conference, the last one that was in person. So what is that like two years ago? Yeah. And I remember seeing you standing there and you were talking to Larry Levine and I walked by and I thought oh man that's Larry Levine, I should introduce myself. And I thought no, no, come on, you don't want people you know bothering him. It's like and I joked because he lives in L. A. He's a Dodgers fan. It was like, you know, you see celebrities all over Los Angeles since like I don't bother and let them eat their meal, you know? So now I've interviewed him, but I still haven't met in person. But it was a great interview and he's very forthcoming and he does explain that something he talks about the end of the book, uh this terrible malady that's going around the world in sales and it's not coronavirus, it's called commission breath. Uh huh. And if you're being used that phrase, yeah, if you're being inauthentic, people can smell that a mile away, don't try and fool humans. And so he really steered into that over the over the years and said, you know, I'm just I really I'm going to try and help people. And he wanted to be kind, he became more interested in his customers and just honest with folks. And there are a couple just real pearls that I pulled out of this, even things that, yeah, it works great with sales, but it also works well with marketing. And one of the ones that really just hit me over the head was a great salesperson is a student of their clients. Problems. They can never get enough information about the problems their clients have and how they can better understand them and how they might be able to help them. And basically, I'm somebody who is being sold to all the time. A lot of listeners probably are. I know you are. How rare is it for somebody to come forward and saying, I think I kind of understand what some of the issues are that you're facing. Never. Yeah, I got good stuff here. You need to do. You want my stuff? Yeah. You want my stuff? Let me talk about me, let me talk about, you know, just the self orientation is, you really can see it two miles off and There's, there's so many rich things in here and it's, it's funny how he ties together so many things from the over 50 sales books that have been on the marketing podcast. But another thing that I really liked was he talked about the biggest problem with salespeople today. Is there consistently inconsistent with how they go about developing business, which I mean like uh Jeb blunt for instance, he'll say the number one reason for sales in the primary reason for failure in sales is a failure to prospect period. And Mark Connor, all these guys, they'll, they'll, they'll all talk about that you have to be consistent. Um, it's sort of like learning a new language or working out, but what they do is they go feast and famine. And he says that's one of the, one of the biggest problems. And another thing that I found interesting that I've I've seen in several other books is he says that the one skill that every salesperson needs to develop and really develop well how to use the phone, I just can't know. I'm somebody who came a lot came around while we had was the phone. But I I could see how uh that's such a challenge, maybe more for younger people, a whole new generation of people that don't even know what that's like. Yeah, so it's, they'd rather just send things with text or social messages or emails. Right? Yeah, yeah. And another concept that's in the book that it's funny. After I interviewed him, I had a listener contact me and say, hey, we're looking for somebody to talk to us about, you know, a servant leadership. And I said, oh my goodness, I just interviewed him. He talks about servant led, uh, sales leadership. And he talks about being service oriented rather than being reactive. Yeah. And modeling the behavior that you're looking for, right? So if you're a sales leader, you want to be modeling the behavior that you're exiting from your team, it's not do what I say, do what it do what I do, right? And also, he talks about providing service, meaning, not being reactive, but instead uh anticipating what a customer might be needing beforehand. He even...

...says to ask them that, right? Yeah. I mean, that's his his one thing he thought listeners could do is hey, become sales minded servant sales. My discernment, right? Ask customers how they would like to be served and their jaw will drop because no one has ever asked this question to them, right? They can't even believe that you're asking it. Oh yeah, I would be, I would be the same way and there's just so many great gems in here. And again, this is another one that applies to content. It applies to sales. He says, instead of worrying about being interesting, we need first to be interested. So some interest in your customer, whether you're in sales or marketing and of course to do that, you have to get to know them. That's why he talked about referrals as such a problem because he, he argues that sales people just don't know their customers as well as they think they do. Yeah. He very often refers to these kinds of sales people that are thinking about themselves and pretending to like, you know, to care about the customer is empty suits. Yes, that's right. That's right. He even had a sticker he sent me that said no empty suits. No empty suits. I thought he made it just for me. But apparently he uses at all uses it all the time. You know, one other super tactical, great idea he had was that when you're selling to an organization, You need to get intimately acquainted with at least six people inside every single one of your accounts. And I just that I thought back and I thought, yep, that's how I lost a few over the over the years because I couldn't I couldn't get through or I never bothered to, as they say, walk the halls, just find out what's going on. Sometimes we call that selling high and wide, right? Because you only have one connection and then that connection connection moves on or something goes trouble with that relationship. You're gone. Yeah. That's all you had. That was the only, what's the thing called? The Piton? When you're climbing a mountain face, you only have one when it goes you go. Yeah. And uh it's almost like I I could just see this on a KPI sheet. Like how many people do you know at your new client? Oh, just the person I'm selling too. Well, you better get down there and start figuring out how to to do more of a swarming offense there. And how can you really say that you're trying to really serve this customer? If you only understand the perspective of one person inside this organization, Right? So I think that speaks to his whole point about being authentic of being genuine is you have to really have to understand what they're trying to do because sometimes even your best coach may not know exactly all the right path to take to navigate the company and everything. Yeah. Sorry. If you hear my co host for my podcast barking in the background, there it is some federal employee in a blue suit delivering mail is just size and nuts. The darn guy keeps showing up even though he barks at him. What's in that box? Yes, that's right. A couple other things he talked about which were just universal, not just for sales. He says it's the post sale where the magic happens. And he said that was always his secret sauce. You know, it's, it's not about getting the money moving on. The real money is in after you make that first sale, get further in, meet those other six people find out what's going on in the organization. Once you're in, that's an invaluable opportunity that is too often squandered by somebody who runs off to the next to the next sale. But before we wrap up, I've just got to say, I think there was only like 10 chapters and one of the chapters was all about continuing education. And so people listening to this are probably into educating themselves. But he talks about how If you're a sales person and you have not spent one of your income of your own money on your success, you're not educating yourself. But he talks about one of the big things that helped him a lot and I know this sounds like a, you know, a plug for the market book podcast, but he said he started reading a lot, He read a lot of books, he still does read a lot of books, but he just talks about all these different ways that you should be continuing to educate yourself, don't wait for your company to be educating your yourself. And another thing that he he even says like, what was the last podcast you listened to or what was the last sales book you read? And uh I mean even a knuckleheaded podcast host can read one book a week. I know a guy who does that. So think about fishing books are, I mean, not to get off topic here, but you've got somebody who's crammed probably 10, 15 years worth of experience in into just a few pages that you can read and you know, in a week, right, where else you gonna get that for 15 bucks or whatever does it cost? Right. I mean time in to to benefit out? You probably can't be books. Yeah, a lot of these books, it's almost like the I think I I often wonder if the ink is made from the author's blood because they pour themselves into it. I've never written a book. I probably never will. But I could, you can't imagine what it's...

...right like writing a book and they It's like you're spending 4-6 hours 1-1 with this author who is sharing with you what works just, it's amazing. That's why I loved the podcast because I just and the more I learned, the more I realized, I don't know, so, but you know, another chapter, an entire chapter was on content. Okay, now this is a sales guy. He is like one of the masters of the universe, but he talks about how sales professionals learn how to digitally fish in the same online ocean that their clients and prospects educate themselves in. And he, even when he does training, he'll ask people, do you think it's easier or more difficult now to prospect? And it's interesting to hear what people say? They all say. It's harder. He says he thinks it's easier now because you can get so much while it's harder to get through. You can start to find out more information about the prospect or their prospects company and you know, even if you are not producing your own content or you don't have a marketing department or whatever. He talks about how every salesperson can build their own content library, because every you collect all this information that your prospects can find helpful. Well, you can use that. You don't have to use that for just one prospect. You can use it for all your prospects. And it's interesting. I mean, he was enormously successful and he's basically showing you what he did. So I'll stop talking about it. But it's a tough industry in a tough industry Tuesday. Yes, copy machines, yes, office equipment, that kind of stuff, right? Like pretty commoditized. But that's why him being authentic and trying to help Being with the customer, right? Being genuine is the differentiator, right? It wasn't the equipment. So his one takeaway for listeners was just to hold yourself 100 accountable for your own personal growth. Right back to that continuing education you mentioned a minute ago. So obviously I'm biased because he and I are friends. But I personally think that every sales professional, both old news should read the book. I really think marketers can benefit from from it as well because it's about being genuine and authentic. And that leads to all the most effective activities in both sales and marketing in my past. Absolutely. I've got hundreds of books like thinking back up you just said, and I even I have a feeling that I get more marketing ideas for reading sales books sometimes that I might get from marketing books. It's not a fair comparison because I'm learning about something. But when I read a sales book, all I can think about is, oh man, they could these guys could be using this or this would be helpful for them or this kind of content or you know, that type of things. Well, it's one thing I really love about your show is that it's all a continuum right from the very, very top of the funnel, all the way to the very bottom of the funnel and really post funnel and you're not just focusing on one little pieces of that. Right? So I think your your show is really the most broad spectrum and being able to touch all those things. Yeah, I know we're supposed to mitch but I do this for fun and that's why I'm I'm always so surprised how many sales people listen to the marketing podcast. Either that it was just more vocal because I I hear from these people, but it also brings to mind the story from Mark Hunters last book of Mine for sales where he was consulting with a client and there were these two young salespeople and they were doing really, really well to the point where the client thought that these guys might be doing something illegal. Did you hear this story? Yes, I remember this. And so they said to Mark like Mark, you know while you're doing this project we need you to kind of keep an eye on these two because we just don't know what they're doing. And it turned out they were spending all their free time with the marketing people. Yeah. See there you go. So it was like you say, the best earners are the best learners. Yes, that's right. The big earners are the big learners of the big earners. That's right. Yes. Well that is it this month's books all phenomenal, all phenomenal. I'll former X and I love them all. Um, what do we got coming up on the market? But podcasts? Well, if this episode wasn't long enough, next time we're gonna talk about five books, we'll try to go fast. Yes, I'm sorry. Um, I know. Well, hopefully somebody listen to this while they were doing it a long drive somewhere. I hope there is somebody driving these days. The first is sustainable marketing. How to drive profits with purpose by Michelle, Carville, Gemma, Butler and Grant Evans. They're british and, and grant guarantee he's well, so I, I hope I got his name right, binge marketing. The best scenario for building your brand by car lane post MMA, My first dutch author I've interviewed activate brand purpose, how to harness the power of movements to transform your company by scott goodson and chip walker. Sounds fascinating. Yeah. Uh the undefeated marketing system, How to grow your business and build your audience using the secret formula that elects presidents by Phillip stutts And...

...finally marketing 5.0 Technology for humanity by Philip Kotler. The father of modern marketing. He's going to be 90 years old this spring and his co authors are Hermawan cartagena and I wan Setiawan and I interviewed dr Kotler for episode 100 a few years ago about marketing four point oh, so anyway, that's it for this month's B two B growth Show Book Talk. Thanks for staying with us to learn more about the marketing book podcast, visit marketing book podcast dot com and to learn more about James in his excellent book, the perfect clothes visit pure mirror dot com. And that's spelled P U R E M U I R dot com. And as I mentioned earlier, if either of us can recommend any marketing or sales, books or other resources for whatever situation you find yourself in or what you'd like to learn more about, please feel free to connect with us on linkedin where we can chat and we'll do our best to get you pointed in the right direction. But please please include a message with your invitation to connect on linkedin. Otherwise we're gonna, we may miss it and we're going to just assume europe a filthy spam. But and remember the words of the late great Jim Rohn who said formal education will make you a living self education will make you a fortune, Okay. Yeah. one of the things we've learned about podcast audience growth is that word of mouth works. It works really, really well actually. So if you love this show, it would be awesome if you texted a friend to tell them about it. And if you send me a text with a screenshot of the text you sent to your friend meta, I know I'll send you a copy of my book, content based networking, how to instantly connect with anyone you want to know. My cell phone number is 40749033 to 8. Happy texting. Mhm Yeah.

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