B2B Growth: Your Daily B2B Marketing Podcast
B2B Growth: Your Daily B2B Marketing Podcast

Episode 1660 · 3 months ago

What's Missing in Your Email Campaign? with Jordan Decker

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

In this episode Benji talks to Jordan Decker, Vice President of Demand Generation at PatientPop.

B2B email can feel stale and robotic, but Jordan believes email can be exciting and extremely valuable to your companies bottom line. Todays conversation is a tactical dialogue on what's working for PatientPop in their email campaigns right now and how we can level up our next outreach.

Conversations from the front lines and marketing. This is be to be growth. Hello and welcome into be to be growth. Today I'm joined by Jordan Decker. He's the vice president of demand generation at patient pop. Jordan, thanks for being on the show, thanks for having me. So I asked you a question, Jordan, offline, about what you do if I gave you a limitless budget in your marketing right now and you said that you would hire a small army to iterate on email campaigns and design. And so here's my first question for you. What do you believe we are under utilizing in our email marketing when it comes to the the be tob space right now? I mean it's testing, it's creative and copy every step of the way. We get in this really bad habit sometimes with email because it I feel like, compared to other demand gen channels, emails usually a lighter lift compared to I have to go build display ads, I have to go do a video campaign on Youtube. We tend to think so shortsighted in terms of email or we don't have enough time to work on it, where we just go with the last temple that worked, go with the last language Tome that worked and just run with it. In my dream world I have like a little army of copywriters and creative and man Gen experts who are just saying there thinking, okay, for every single email we do, what is the test were running? What are we going to go try to do out of this, if whether it's imagery or layout or like hml versus plaintext, and what is the tone and what is the language like? I just want to have a little like vice framework, AB testing army working on it, because it's such it always has such untap potential and it's such a great channel for conversation where you're not limited by character limit or minutes of video. You can phrase it the way you want to, you can present it the way you want to. So I would just test the hell out of everything. Two seven sounds fun and time consuming. So you would definitely need the small army. So I love the way that you phrase that because you're thinking about this. Maybe it would be helpful to just give some context to your current marketing role and what makes you think about this, like give a sort of your day to day so I oversee all functions of demand generation and the way that works within the patient pop org is that I oversee everything that has to do with marketing operations and technology, all of our digital marketing, so paid search, paid Social Seo, all of our programmatic channels, content marketing. My oversee our demand gen programs around email and Webinar and direct mail, and I also oversee all of our customer marketing and our partner marketing. So basically, anything that's driving new business or helping to drive retention and upsell or cross cell falls within me and my team from the marketing side, which then explains why email becomes very compelling to you. Right. Yes, email is specially coming from a company that...

...focuses on the healthcare space and specifically really focusing on those providers who sit within that private practice independent practice space. There's not a lot of data out there that I get to go mind. Like, as much as I would love to sit there pulling six sense lists all day, every day, that's not a real option for US based off of the quality of the data that we can get and how it fits within our target market, where we do have a lot of stuff as our own first party database that we've built an email and we know who those people are, we know what their specialty is what their area focus is. We have their consent to email and we can really leverage that in a way that we don't have to be worried about. You know, what is IOS privacy doing to facebook advertising and how is that impacting our reach? And is there more competition on paid search and there was before? Like emails our channel, we have it. We see really good engagement off of it. HMM. Okay. So, because you're thinking about this a lot, what do you think when it comes to be to be email campaigns specifically, like if I gave Jordan decker a billboard to tell the world of be to be what to stop doing, what would you tell people they should stop? So I'm torn. My first thing, this is a pet pee of me and my senior leaders on my team have a slack channel. We just share the bad emails we get sent by people trying to prospect us. So if you've sent me one before, I'm there wasn't good. I probably have mocked it with the people who reports me. Sorry, you're on a walla shame somewhere. I'm sure I am. But one of my biggest pet peeves is when people are clearly doing a one too many and trying to make it seem like it's one to one, when it's painfully not. Obviously you know, especially if you're like an st are doing cold outreach like that. One too many cadence in your sequence tool was obvious really helpful, but that lack of personalization, or just like a kind of half to attempt to do real, deep personalization, is always so obvious. If you want my attention, you have to have a really good sense of how to reach me and how to connect with me. The other thing is stop sending me all of your emails first thing in the morning, like I live by starting my day by purging my inbox, especially since I'm west coast, I know everyone on the East Coast at getting my inbox and if you're hitting me, if you're just like I'm, automatically send this out first in the morning every time. Chances are if I don't recognize your name or your subdaylines, really not, really good. I've deleted you, like before I've gotten out of bed, while I'm like treatic my inbox with one eye still closed. Same like it's that big purge every I did a flow linkedin post on this recently, where it's like, if you really want to stand out, like think about timing and like think about when in my day I might actually have time to like catch your email. You don't know if I'm be going a boring call and I'm actually really paying more attention to my inbox because I'm trying to be distracted while trying to focus at the same time. But yeah, first in the morning. Don't bother. I'm not doing very good at one thing on a billboard. I think on that one too. I just even switching up your times. But when you were saying the the one too many, the half attempt is what bugs me. It's so bad. I don't care if you send out if you send out a mass email, hi, almost if...

...it's done well, I don't mind. At least I know what I know. The context right, you're getting the message out to a bunch of people. But I receive emails where the first line is it because I'm in podcast world Jordan. I'll just give you a podcast specific example. They will take it feels like they went to the last episode of be to be growth. They just scrolled over to like halfway through whatever. They heard the guest mention. You know, the very first sentence they said they like wrote it down real quick in an email and the rest of it is copied and pasted. It's the same for everybody and they're just pitching a guest of me and I'm like, Whoa, this is not personalized. This actually almost makes me feel worse, like I don't know, what's an example from your world, it's just spam. My number one tell for someone. I don't want to give us away because if someone's listening this and trying to get ahold of me, they're going to catch this now. But my number one twel is that they are doing kind of dynamic token copy. If they list patient pop as patient Pop Inc, because they've clearly pulled it off a Linkedin, because I think on Linkedin were listed as patient pop ink, at least in certain places. I forget, or I just exist in their crm somewhere that way. But like the ink part of my company name, like under no circumstances that ever used in common conversation or an email. Yeah, so those little things that I can I can spot. The other thing that I get a lot as someone who it's not only emails I get, because we've had people leave the company in the past where, like I get their old emails forwarded to me. People just don't do any form of research to make sure, like is this your current job title? Are you still at this company? Like I get my old boss as emails all the time and it's like hey, jared, now's a great time to talk about was having patient Bop, my dude don't work here no more, like and his linkedin makes it very clear. So you're kind of lazy prospecting if you're not at least going to look up the information on the person you're trying to reach out to. Like, come on, there's right ways and wrong ways to use tokenization and email. For sure, we could probably do a whole episode just on that, but we won't. Absolutely will scare you. So what exactly do you when you think of email design? Tell me what you what you consider, what comes to mind when I use that phrasing, email design in a weird way for me, like I think a lot of people use the word design and immediately think of visuals. When it comes to designing an email, tone and language is actually what I think of first. There's great resources out of the kind of show how to diversify your tone and language and writing, making like things as easy as making sure that like not all your sentences of the same length. You're going between full like full length, like eight, nine, ten word versus a three word, and really trying to sound conversational. I had a direct report who used to work from me, where she had come from like a financial background, and her copy red legs someone who came from like a financial background, and I used to tell them like you're writing, like your posture is like so stiff and like etiquette, like I need you to like slump a little bit. You need to sound like a person when you're writing this, and I would do stuff with her. I'm like, read this...

...out loud to me and it would sound awkward. I'm like, okay, if this doesn't sound how how you talk, this isn't written right and we have to go back and Redo it. It should sound like. I was like, if your aunt's a doctor and she's running own practice, as this, how you'd explain it to her? Like hang out at your parents house. No, go do it again, like wrong language. But then also, like the actual design of your email is so important too, and I think be to be, especially if you're doing like html design, like newsletter, white paper, content download kind of emails. We have a tendency to not have the most esthetically pleasing looks and feels. We tend to be a little behind the curve on design and really looking at what you're doing to make your email feel like it's well designed and well polished, especially in a beat to be space, because you're trying to win over business, to show that like you can help someone grow their business. How are you marketing what you're doing? How are you making your look and feel, especially for us, because a big part of a patient pop does is help private practices advertise and grow their business. Nine Times out of time, when we have a successful marketing activity, those practices immediately go back to us and go so how do I do this now? So I'm almost proving what we can do for our prospects based off what me and my team are doing for our own brand on a regular basis. So looking cutting edge, looking like the phrase cutting edge, but it's true, looking really modern design and looking what works well on the B to sea side, because for sure what we see more and more is that people are consuming in their be tob world the same way they consume content or material or information and as a consumer there's no gap anymore and this sense of like a betb cell looks one way in a BTC cell looks another, is going away. There's no reason why I shouldn't be getting an email from a brand like six sense that has a cool look and feel, like a might get from like All Saints when I'm picking out something I want to buy to weere. HMM. The thing that I think of there, and I would love to hear your take on is if all saints sends me an email, I'm interested as the consumer automatically because they know that I've bought from them or I've opted into something. Clearly, on the BB side you opted into an email somewhere where you're probably not just straight up getting spammed all the time. I would hope not, but I think when I get a really highly branded be to be email, we haven't figured out what you brought up first, which is the language side, because I see highly branded be to be emails that seem very hyper prideful, like they lead with MMM, who we are as a company versus why we're interesting to you, versus all saints knows. I looked at this specific item of clothing and they're popping it up on my screen with amazing visuals and I'm like that's the Holy Grail, I must buy now. It's so funny, like even aside from email, the concept of retargeting, like if you talk to your friends who don't work at a marketing space, they're like, Oh God, it's so like it's creepy, it's big brother, but all of us who work in marketing and know how the day to work, we're like no, no, like, prospect me better, yeah, give me better ads, got a card abandonment add...

...for me, like give me a sequence deal, like, I'm ready, let's go. But it is true, because a lot of what I see brands doing is not always making sure that the way they talk, on the way they present their brand aligns with the funnel position of the prospect they're going after. And you really have to tie that not only in terms of like what you're offering, but how you're talking to them, because in a pure top of funnel prospecting kind of mode, which, to your point, shouldn't be happening, realized email, because you shouldn't be going after all these people you don't have consented. You know, but that's again as a whole other legal topic podcast right there. You don't want to be this weird braggy thing, but you do also want to present your brand in a way where it's like I'm the one here to solve your problem. But the court of that and and one of our sales leaders who just be working with us, Kevin Dorsey, always talked about is like getting people to understand and agree about a problem before you try to sell, and I think that applies to marketing as well. We have to be focused on do you agree that you have this problem you're trying to solve, that my solution can come help you with, before I just kind of, you know, full on music man, trombones blaring, marching through town kind of approach. You got to bring people along on that journey and if, if you are just focus on like here's how cool my brand is and not here's how my brand can help you, you're coming off, to your point, as like braggy ego as opposed to like you know that I'm here to serve you as our future hopeful customer. And I say braggy in it doesn't even necessarily come off as that. It just comes off as like we don't even understand what you do. Yeah, the number of be to be like, especially like Sass kind of brands. We are like this looks really cool. The Hell do you do? Like, I don't understand your value prop and, and it goes back to that, like how do you focus on the problem your product is solving? Because if you can present how you solve a problem, it doesn't matter how you present your I mean doesn't not matter at all. But, like the brand, presentation matters less if you've gotten their interests. Of Yes, I can help you solve this. So we're thinking about language, we're thinking about the medium, because the medium really matters. So when I open an email, does it look like more of a landing page? Doesn't look like there's a will feel to it? How are you guys testing campaigns and utilizing email at patient pop right now? One of the big things for us, and this was kind of an edict I made when I took over all of demand Jen for the business, was nothing should ever leave the door without testing. There's never a time we should be sending an email where the only goal is conversion. Yes, conversion is obviously a goal. If we're promoting our next Webinarre. We want to get those registrants because we know that fuels the funnel and we know our sales team is waiting for those leads. But it also has to have a goal of what you can learn for your brand in terms of subgocline performance, in terms of your copy, your tone or your funnel alignment. For us, like I try to think of our emails as almost like a mini landing page to what they will be hitting. Okay, kind of going back to that like all saints. Example, from an e commerce side, when you get an email being like here's the latest trends for this season and...

...go check it out and you're looking at in your email and then you hit the ECOMMERCE page to the look at those products, it feels seamless. It looks like your email just went from email to landing page and you never left. That experience I think sometimes be to be you know, if you are hosting a landing page for a white paper download on your corporate site through your wordpress, instance, and then running an email campaign through Marquetto you may not be making those designs feel really locked step, and we've definitely been guilty of that at times because you know, you get in this mentality of like, okay, what has proven success? Okay, this landing page has proven success and this email temp what has proven success. But do they make sense together? Do they actually look like two pieces of the same campaign, the same execution? More doesan just look like, in our case, like you went from one green colored thing to another green color thing and if it wasn't for the color in our logo mark you wouldn't see a connection. It's something we have to be really cognizant about as marketers. That's interesting. I've never really stopped to think about that. But the seamless nature of when I click on something, open new window, take me to a different APP whatever it needs to engage the thought process I was already on. Yeah, and allow me to just continue down again. Men Use the funnel language, but you want that that person to start to get like tunnel vision towards something, and I think our direction were like this emails great, this emails great over here, and then someone else built this great thing over here, and the way that those things kind of coincide me maybe off or missing. And I think the especially for someone like me coming from be to be and specifically in Sass be to be. Sometimes our products, when they are software, are so abstract that it's hard to get visuals that really drive home what it is you're promoting when you're talking about how things like email solutions can drive, in our case, patient recall for practices, like you don't want to just show an inbox. That's a weird thing, but then you don't want to go so lifestyle. That's, you know, smiling, happy person looking at their phone, because then it has no meeting whatsoever and like what's the point of that imagery other than to have a person on it see in the email every day? Yeah, yeah, so it's it can be a struggle, especially and be because I like there are times where I look at BTC market I'm like God, that looks so much nicer where it's like you're selling a physical product, like here are these shoes I want you to buy. It's more styling that. There are times when we're looking at even beyond demandgen looking at our website or our product walk through videos of like okay, how do we represent this product? Because our we all agree that our product is great looking. It has great results for our customers. We know it does, but how do we presented in an abstract, non movement kind of frame, like like email, like static email, and and really get the point across by what we can do and how we can help? You mentioned testing. What are some of those tests that you've run? Can give like an example of some of the things you're trying? One of the big errors of focus for us lately has been especially with email. Were interesting because our sales cycle is really short,...

...especially when we have deals coming from inbound like we it's not uncommon for us to see someone coming from an mql state to a new customer in under two weeks. So, as someone has been with a I'm very spoiled. I am absolutely spoiled and there are some people kill for that sale cycle. But one of the things that we've always done with email historically, from when I was first starting and I was running the campaigns myself, is we didn't really take a good look at how we treat email along every step of the funnel because the funnel felt so quick that it was hard to do that. And we may not have like every defined funnel stage that we can align with, but there are definite, you know, top, middle bottom, general stages that we've been testing. How do we optimize our offers, our copy, our tone, are visuals based on where they're at the funnel? How do we treat someone who is in our database because maybe they've downloaded a single white paper from one of our content marketing efforts on native or social and get them a little further down, versus someone who maybe saw demo of the product six months ago, the timing was off and now we're trying to re engage them? How we can leverage emails a channel to make sure we're mapping toward the prospect is is something that putting a lot of energy into. One of the guys on my team, Brian, has been a big fan of of the vice framework, the velocity impact confidence in these kind of way of looking at what we're testing, because one of the things we become guilty of is, you know, we spend so much time not having the bandwidth the test that we kind of carved out time for ourselves where it's like, okay, brainstorm, blue sky session. What's everything we would test if we could? And all of a sudden you have this amazing list of things you want to test and you're like, I have no idea where it start so overwhelm rings of a really good job. Yeah, it's overwhelming because you're like, we're how do I pick? Do I pick the one that people were the most passionate about? And applying that vice framework actually is nice because it gives a numeracle score to what everything we want to test is and you can kind of see which ones across. How quickly can we do it? What impact are we expecting? How confident are we in the results? How easy it is for us to implement it? That kind of allows us to triage things automatically and really prioritize what we're testing. Funnel position has been a big thing for us and it's probably in our biggest testing focus because it is that like what is the offer? What is the tone? What is the look? We've also been doing a lot of testing around email, around what we've been referring to internally as email affinity groups, where we look at people who came in from our top of funnel campaigns and try to group what not necessarily buy. What what up part of our product they're interested in, but what problem they're trying to solve? Are they trying to really like figure out how to market a practice? Are they figure out how to really drive a better control of their their online reputation? Are they're really look at just bringing New People in the door and and keeping those patients coming back time after time and looking how we segment our audience instead of looking at it based off of, you know, what their medical specialty is or how large of a practice they're at, trying to segment them based off of their kind of self identified problem statements. So we've been doing kind of drip campaign is based off of those affinity groups...

...and seeing some really cool success from it. How many segments, Jordan? How many of those kind of little groups have you tried to go after? I think there's three or four that we have where we kind of treat it as whenever we launch a new content piece or run a new campaign, we try to associate it with one of I think we have about three main ones. And then I think okay, forth, where it's just kind of the this is a new topic that like maybe we just put out a super seasonal, very like current topic kind of piece that doesn't necessarily fall somewhere else. We need kind of a general what we refer to as like our practice growth kind of affinity group and figuring out how do we push them into another affinity group from there if we didn't get their full interest point. But I think it's around three or four that we focus on right now to make sure we get it right like that. Go back with me real quick for those that would have been unfamiliar with the vice framework and just resay that so that we have a second time to think through what you what it is. So the vice framework, I want to give all credit to Brian clevisy on my team, kind of brought this to us as a way to start measuring all of our AB testing. But vice is an acronym for Velocity, impact, confidence and ease, which basically allows you to look at everything you're testing and figure out for any test you want to run, you have to kind of give it a score based off all of those criteria and based off of that, you kind of have a hide a lower. You can figure out, okay, this is something that we can do very quickly. We think it has high impact. We're really confident that we that it's gonna drive some sort of so we're going to get some sort of results and it doesn't take us a lot of heavy looking to get it done. That's a win, whereas other things where it's like, Oh, you know, this would have a lot of impact and really confident, but we can't do it quickly and it's not going to be easy. Maybe we don't prioritize this right now. But we start talking to marketing up so we start talking to our dever resources and figure out how we start spinning up in the background as we get closer to it. It's really like that triaging tool for us around all of these AV tests, velocity, impact, confidence, EA's. That is a good reminder. I like that one. Thank you for sharing that with us. Okay, so you're telling us that the testing that you're doing super valuable. That sort of falls in the things you're actually doing right now. I wonder, moving and maybe looking out into the future, what are you trying to maybe the next thing you're interested in? What are you actively hoping to improve moving forward that maybe you're not testing yet? I want to go nuts on personalization. We're a MARQUETTO customer and there's it's one of those tools where, I know there's so many things that we're not we're not using it for everything we could, whether it's because of time or resources, but we have a very robust in how crm database of people that we know are in our target market that we want to go after, and I think there's still a lot of work we can do to kind of really boost in those email formats that are clearly one too many, like a newsletter. How do we really elevate and step up our game around what we're doing around personalization? How can we change?...

You know, for us, for example, we do use a lot of like kind of healthcare medical lifestyle imagery. Can we do things to make sure that the imagery were showing is different if we're if the person opening that email is an obi guine or a dentist or a pediatrist or an orthopedic surgeon. And Yeah, what do we want to change about that? One thing that we were looking at doing, and then pause thanks to Covid is when we have our presence at trade shows, can we leverage their zip code information to show extra modules that we're going to be at an upcoming trade shown that they can set up time to stop by our booth and have that intelligently show where, you know, if the shows in San Francisco, we don't need to show that to someone who's going to email Miami necessarily, but if we know you're in the Greater Bay area, can we do that really smart personalization in the vice kind of world. For us, unfortunately, that's not exactly in the ease category, so it hasn't been prioritized, but it's something we're really eager to do and to do more with. HMM, good too. Things are okay. So let's talk about what tools apps because I want to go practical here as we start to wrap up on the house and how you're executing the stuff that you guys are doing. What tools and APPs of you use that you feel like are really helping your email campaigns? Right now, one that's become really popular with my team and we've all become big advocates for his path factory. And if you're not familiar with path factory, it's this really cool content engagement system that allows you to try to make content more bingeable. I remember when I was on sales pictures with them originally, when we were looking for a solution. They kind of position themselves as like we kind of want to be the Netflix of be to be content, where Netflix kind of will give you the suggestions of like, go watch this next. Yeah, because one of the things we knew, and we would see this through our own crm tracking and our marketing tracking, is that we would see all of these these one deals we got where someone was downloading a white paper a month from us, like every month for a year, and after all that we finally got the win off of it. We finally gotten that position for them and it kind of open to this question for us of how do we kind of accelerate that process where we can put more content in front of you right away? And what's cool about path factory is they have these content paths where you can load up basically a playlist of content across a lot of different media forms and just have them all in one playlist. So you can put a pdfile in there, you can put video content, like we have our whisty of videos living in there. You can even embed individual like web pages, so like if there's a page that lives on your site, you can pull it straight in and it all lives in one contained space where you have analytics, you have known versus unknown visitors. It integrates with our Marqutto instance, so the data gets passed back and forth. We can see what the last asset they were reading on. And what I really like them is that they have kind of intelligent dating systems. All of us is be to be markers. Are Constantly having that fight of like do I gate it? Do I unate it? Does everyone have access to it? Like are there certain things as a depend and what we liked about about path factory is the fact that we could use intelligent gates and determine when and how we want to show that wall. So if someone was looking at our content for multiple minutes, we...

...could say hey, once they've been looking at things and actively engage on the page for at least forty five seconds or exactly two minutes, that's when it that gate shows up and we get them to kind of keep going. Or we could say that, you know, all of these assets in the path are free to view except for this one, like high value research piece, we do need to collect your information on and it allows us to be a lot smarter and a lot INTU more intelligent about how we do that. And their team does regular qbrs with US around how we're using taxonomy in their system and what's working and what's not and figuring out how we can levered it more. It's been a really popular tool for the team and, like anything we're working on, we're like, okay, we can, we use path factory for this. To one of our executions that we did early on is, and I feel I see a lot of people struggling this with with newsletters, where you're like here's like the last five things we published. Well, you don't want someone to click off on the first content thing and then have to go back to their email to find something else because they can get distracted. The Nice thing is if we would have like our our February newsletter with five content pieces, we would load those full, all five of those content pieces, into one path and scroll no matter where you clicked in the email, you hit the one you wanted, but everything else is right there and you don't have to go back beforeth Nice. So it's been a really cool, powerful tool for us and we're constantly looking for like how else do we leverage it? We're constantly like looking at what the new product releases are from them and seeing if there's something else we can do. We played with actually building like you can build almost like a little mini microsite resource set are that like requires no coding work. So obviously, being in healthcare, we had a lot of content we're putting out at a very start of covid and trying to get this information out to our providers around hey, like here's how tell a health building codes matter to you now and what you have to do, and we're able to kind of spin up a really quick resource hub with a lot of content one place that normally would have taken like several Dev cycles and it was just kind of quick, easy done. Wow. Well, this episode's brought to you by path factory. Still apparently I'm now a brand ambassador and I didn't realize it, but I like it. I always love giving away some of those practical it just it's interesting to hear what tools are working, it's true. And like and and we're still looking at directmail has become a big channel for us. It works really well for us and we're still looking at how we can better where a sendoso customer and how we can integrate sendoso into our email campaigns and as we do those offers that are aligned with funnel position, are there things that we can do to drive, you know, those door open earth campaigns, those deal accelerator campaigns and have that tie into email. So it's kind of every execution is all in one touch. So there's there's more we're testing there. I'm a big fan of the campaigns that are very like a mix of like doing the campaigns where it's just a packets and we shows up unexpectedly, versus like Hey, I want to send you something. Please opt in, because if you've gotten someone's opt into mailing you something like there's there's obviously much better avenue for our sales and to have a conversation. All right, well, this has been fascinating. Oh, ask one more question and then, and I will will get your socials and ways...

...for people to connect. If you were going to start from scratch, where would you begin? And I mean this in the way of clearly there's a million things you could do in marketing in general, but let's go email specific. Maybe there hasn't been a lot of strategy at a company and they bring Jordan in and he's going to start do an email. What are you focusing on? What's important to you? You're starting from scratch. Go I mean first and foremost as audience. Like there's nothing you can do with email market until you really have a hand on who your audiences. So looking at what you're existing database is. Do you have consent? Have you been able to segment them? How much information do you have in there, and really making sure you have all the information you need to really build out smart segments without going so far down the road that you're like hyper segmenting too early, too fast, but being able to at least have some sort of like for us it's in like a healthcare space, it's can I at least segment them by what medical specialty they are and how my language will change there. So that audience data. And if you don't have it, that's not a reason to panic. There's so many resource out there you can go to kind of append and scrub and add more to your database. After that is text act like you need to have the right tool that's powerful enough to scale with you, as you know, your programs are going to scale. It's really easy for us as marketers just be like I need the cheap and easy one, that I'll just be like my MVP product. But if you implement like a lower lift, the lower strength email marketing tool, that gets the job done but doesn't have everything, like all the bells and whistles you want, and then your team gets used to it. Now you not only have the debt on your team of having to change over systems, but having everyone relearned something is such a pain. Going to lose some hair in that process. Oh God, it's it's a nightmare, like whatever someone's like what like we're going through a merger right now and we have two sets of systems on both sides of the family and it's it's a very intentional discussion around which systems stay. How do we pick them? And a lot of it is involved in not only the feature step, but like how comfortable our team is and what they feel like they can and can't do with it right. And I guess the last thing is like find your inspiration, like figure out what your brand wants to look and feel. Like there's so many resources out there. There's so many blogs around the best of email campaigns, whether you're looking at, you know, trying to drive adoption, trying to go after people haven't logged into your platform in a while, news letters, pr whatever that looks like. There's so many great examples out there. Like you almost need to have a little like pinterest mood board kind of moment for what you like and what works, and don't be limited by your vertical or like your place on the be Tobb Toc spectrum because, like, I'm always the biggest advocate of this, like, we have to learn from the other sides of the aisle, especially on the B Tob side. Yeah, that that inspiration, that mood board, is so important because as you start doing things with email, you don't want to look sloppy. Your brand doesn't want to look all over the place. You need a little bit of cohesiveness. Even if you are going to be testing and playing with things, try not to piss off your creative director in the process and good luck. But yeah, good look with that one.

Thanks, Jordan, for spending time with us here. Tell us a little bit more about patient pop and then where can we connect with you? So patient pop is the leader and practice growth. Our goal is to help independent private practices really grow and thrive and drive care for their communities. We do that through helping them with their website, their Seo, their reputation, marketing campaigns, tell a health billing solutions, mobile APPs, everything that healthcare proviators need. At the end of the day, we know that these health care proviators provide such an important service to our community and to our country, especially as we've all been living through covid. But they studied medicine, not marketing. They don't always know what they don't know. So our goals really help them build a growing, thriving business and be those leaders that they can rely on to get the most out of their business. In terms of getting connected with me, Linkedin is always the best channel. I think there's some really antiquated marketer Jordan twitter account that probably hasn't been touched in yours. Don't bother, but linkedin is probably the best channel to get a hold of me these days. Fantastic. Well, thanks for being on B Tob Growth. Thanks for sharing your wealth of wisdom on email marketing with us. We really appreciate it. Thanks so much for having its been a blast or always having insightful conversations just like this one here on be tob growth. I would love to connect with you. You can connect with me on Linkedin as well. Just search Benji Block. I'm always sorry about marketing business and life over there and love having some back and forth. So feel free to reach out there. If you haven't subscribed to the show yet, do that wherever you're listening to this, and it will be back real soon with another episode. Keep doing work. The matters BB growth is brought to you by the team at sweet fish media. Here at sweetfish, we produce podcasts for some of the most innovative brands in the world and we help them turn those podcasts into Microvideos, linkedin content, blog posts and more. We're on a mission to produce every leader's favorite show. Want more information, visit sweet PHISH MEDIACOM.

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