What you need for a Crisp Marketing Campaign

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

In this episode, Olivia Hurley talks to Mary Pat Donnellon, Chief Revenue Officer at CallRail

Yeah, Hi everyone, welcome back to be, to begrowth. My name is Olivia Hurley and today I'm joined by mary Pat Donnellanwho is the Chief Revenue Officer at Call Rail. Hi mary Pat, how are you?I'm doing well, thank you for having me Olivia. Well it is my pleasure. I'mreally excited to talk to you today, you have seen one or two marketingcampaigns in your day and and I'm excited to learn more, but I want tokind of level set with everybody like you were saying a few minutes ago andget us all on the same page. So my first question is how do you thinkabout a marketing campaign? Okay, we'll dive right in. So when I think about amarketing campaign, I think about it in multiple layers. Kind of the firstlayer would be, what is the message or outcome that we're trying to accomplishwith this campaign? What do we want our potential buyers to do at the end ofthe day? Like what is the outcome were driving for and how do we want tocommunicate with them? Like what do we want them to know to get them uh, tothat outcome. So kind of, that's the top level, like really being clear onwhat the outcome is and what the message is to get to that outcome, thenyou have a million channels as we all know in today's world, there is anunlimited number of channels that you have by which you can communicate toyour audience with that message and the outcome and then you need to, basicallythe way I think about it is mapping the message and the channels to your buyersand their journey and to try to get the right message two at the right time tothe right person. And that's nuanced and complicated at times. And it can bekind of simple too. But those are the elements that I think of and planning acampaign. I love that. It it seems like it's really succinct when you thinkabout it that way. And I'm curious with this. You know, we have, what are youtrying to accomplish? What's the outcome? How do we want to say it?What's the right time early? There are ways to complicate that and surelythere are irrelevant efforts. And so if those are the ones that are essentialto the marketing campaign success, are there parts that you've seen time andtime again that people add in, marketers add in that are irrelevant orunnecessary? I think there's a couple ways to look at it. I think that peoplecan overcomplicate for sure. One way to over complicate is to maybe start withthe channels and think like, oh, we have all these channels that we can goafter. We need to put our message on social. We need to advertise here. Weneed to and not just social, but every channel on social, we need to dofacebook linkedin instagram Tiktok like whatever it might be, we have to do allof them. We have to advertise in all the places we need to call everybodyand do all the things. And I don't think that that's really necessarilystrategic or necessary. I think we can get really busy as marketers and feellike we're doing a lot by pursuing a lot of channels. But if they're not thechannels where your buyers are, it's not gonna make sense. It's like we'redoing that because we might like it. But if our buyers aren't there andthat's not where they consume information, then you might be wastingyour time and a lot of energy and we all know there's so many channels rightnow. So being really thoughtful about where your buyers are and the peopleyou want to reach and then being very...

...selective on the channels. So that's,that's one way that I see wasted time and energy and and marketing dollars.The other way that I see it is when the timing and the message and the channeldon't match. So let me give you an example of that. I am Chief RevenueOfficer, my phone, I get so many phone calls and emails from very wellintentioned business development representatives. I love BDR. I have BDRs on my team, I love them. But when they're cold calling me right now andsaying, I want to give you a demo of my software. Like that's not where I amright now right now, where I am in my journey? I'm thinking about how am Igoing to grow my business. What am I going to do next year and All theplanning that I need to do to drive more growth in 2022. That's like wheremy head is right now. I am absolutely not sitting around thinking whatsoftware can can I buy today? Like that's not where my head is. So if I'mdoing like outbound calling as part of a campaign and coming in with a messageto someone like me that hasn't engaged, knows nothing about your software andyou want to show me a demo. Like I'm going to ignore you and it's not worthmy time and it's not worth their time, a better use if you're going to usethat channel knowing that a buyer that they don't a potential buyer thatthey've identified. But I haven't engaged is maybe to have somethingwhere they're inviting me to. Something about growth planning. How do B two BsaS leaders think about revenue growth? That's what I'm thinking about invitingme to something where a thought leader on that topic is going to shareinsights. That's the way to maybe get me engaged. Or maybe we don't make thatphone call until I have engaged with some other channels and they know, oh,she obviously has a problem that she's looking to solve and is looking aroundon this. She's a warm lead. I think probably at this at this point. She'sready for a phone call to see a demo of my software. But that's an example ofwhere a phone call isn't necessarily a bad thing. It can be a very good thing.But if it's like going right on a cold outreach to see a demo of a software,you know, just, it's not the right time for that this fire and not the rightmessage. And how how should a decision maker over the marketing campaign makethose decisions, how should they make the call that outbound prospecting withcold calling isn't the right first move or? Yes. So the way I think about it,the first thing to do in planning your campaign is to really understand whoyou're trying to reach and doing research. It doesn't have to be aformal market research study. It can be informal research, like calling people,talking to them, understanding how they consume information and where they lookfor answers and where they hang out, et cetera, and how they think about things.So, you know, really buyer persona, understanding who your buyer is and howthey consume information. And a little bit about the types of decisions thatthat person would make, where they look for information, how they think aboutthings. So just do basic research and make a very simple map of what thatjourney is. And then it's a matter of mapping your message and your channelsto that decision making process, knowing your buyer. And the way I thinkabout it is, um, and I think it's pretty standard is that you would havekind of high level content for an offerings for people who aren't engagedat all that you don't know, you need to educate them on what's possible thatthey might have a problem that they could do things better in my case.Maybe it's like what are SAS leaders...

...thinking about for growth going forward,that would be like top level. Then once we've gotten some engagement in there,we talk about how people are solving these problems, what tools might beavailable where they could get insights to help them deploy their resourcesbetter and and find more growth opportunities. And then once they'reengaged at that level, then say, okay, now would be the time to put a call inand see if we can get them to do a demo of our software. So it's kind of likejust mapping it out in advance and doing that planning up front and thenbeing able to capture what's happening along that journey. So that's, that'sthe hard part often is like understanding what's happening alongthat journey. So that you know, how engaged is someone, how interested issomeone, where are they on their journey and being able to track andknow that so that your surfacing those write messages and have the righttactics at the right time? What do you think people stand to loseor maybe you have an example of maybe a time where you missed out on, on, onsomething like this? But what do you think people stand to lose bycontinuing to kind of include some of these like irrelevant efforts of likegoing after every channel or not knowing who the buyer is. Um yeah, yeah,there's two problems. One is, you can and I would love to say I've never donethis, but I have the number one problem is that you can burn out a team. Likeyou can exhaust people like there is so much work that you can put into theseefforts and it can be an unlimited amount of work. So whoever is runningthese campaigns, like if if you're doing extraneous work, it's hot. Likewe need to be smart about what we do and um otherwise you can be on thishamster wheel that never ends. So that is one like big internal risk is thatyou burn out the people doing the work because they're just doing everythingand sometimes when you do everything, your, you're not doing the things. Sobeing careful of burnout for your team, the other one is you can waste a lot ofmoney to and so I think the way to, you know, you've talked to buyers, you knowwhere they are, you need to definitely focus on putting your efforts there.It's also okay to try new things, but I would strongly encourage marketers totest into those before they go all in and put tons of resources just becausea channel exists or we think it might be good like test into it and find outfor sure. So that's the other thing. There's a risk of a lot of waste andvaluable resources. Lastly, and probably the worst is you can create areally bad customer experience if you are going out with really aggressivemessages that aren't like suited to where a person is, it makes it feellike you don't understand or care or get your buyer and and it can feelinauthentic, irrelevant and really damage your brand. So I think that'sprobably the greatest hazard of all is that you that you do things that justare tone deaf and wrong um for the person that you're trying to engagewith and and it creates not only maybe a different opinion, but actually anegative impression which you don't want. Do you have an example of that?Maybe not from your own experience? Oh yeah, I've never seen that done. I'llgo back like every day I get so many emails from good companies just likewith these super technical invitations talking all about them that they wantme and come to this like super specific...

...technical thing. It's just like a turnoff, especially if it's marketing software that would be coming to melike trying to say like really technical detailed demo and or kind ofincreasingly aggressive outreach. It's a real negative, it's in my in box allday long. I won't name any names. But I'm sure if you're a marketer you getthem in your probably anybody and B two B you're getting that from vendors andit leaves a negative impression and it's in my in box all day long. Howmany do you think you get every day? Like I would say, I now I do try tounsubscribe to a lot, so I get it better and then it explodes again oncemy name gets put on another list someplace I think. So I would say 10 to15. Yeah. And a lot some really good companies, you know, maybe they boughta list of, you know, my profile, they buy a list and then they starthammering me and then it's just like go away. I don't want any part of this.Yeah. Is it one of those things where because of the nature of the outreach,even if that was a solution that you were looking for, it was just delete it.Yeah, I don't even it's just like delete unsubscribe. Unsubscribe withouteven looking. Yeah. And then they've lost me for everything, you know, I'munsubscribing, right? Oh, what a loss. That's yeah, that's a bummer. Soinstead of these, you know, inappropriate, strong word. But he'slike outreach, that doesn't make sense with the, you know, the level ofengagement, the place that you're at or going after every channel, you know,instead of doing those things, what do you suggest in their places to have areally tight focused effective campaign. Yeah, so again, back to mapping outthat buyers journey understanding where people are and then it's very importantfor marketers to know and look at what is working and what isn't. So you haveto understand how people are engaging and what is driving outcomes and not.So you have to be very critical and and look at that at all at all times.Actually, it's interesting that is what I call real provides for smallbusinesses is tools not to do a shameless plug here, but that is whatCall Rail is all about, is providing that kind of insight into into what'sworking and what isn't for small businesses so that they can see whatactually drove to a phone call, what actually resulted in in bound form fillor a text or chat on their website and they know what works and what, whatdoesn't. So all marketers need to have some level of data to understand thatotherwise you're flying blind and it feels right to you, but you canactually test with the level of engagement and what activities are outactually leading to outcomes. So we try to be pretty crisp on that and ourbusiness as we're marketing and then we're, it's like actually great to beable to offer that just small businesses of all sizes as a company. Ithink that's awesome. I'm so, and I look like you use the word crisp,that's just so visual for me. I'm curious what the, you have a campaigngoing, you're measuring, you had your understanding engagement from yourideal buyers and something needs to change. Um, I'm curious about about the,how you alter the focus, how you kind of turn the ship mid campaign. That's agreat question. So any time you're doing something, you'll get some thingsright and you're going to get some...

...things wrong. So again, just to be openminded, data driven, so that your, your emotions don't cloud your judgment. Andif something isn't even if it's your, what you thought was amazing and itisn't getting engagement or working, there's a couple things to look at. Oneis, is the message right? Like, is it just the way we presented something?Could it be done differently? And you could test that, You could introduce anew, a different variation of that and see if it performs better. You couldask yourself is the channel right? Is the way I'm communicating correct? Andif it is, maybe that isn't, maybe you start with a message and that'sprobably often the easiest place to start. If you're like, construct inyour channel is off. You need to be open minded and look at that. If you'readvertising in some place and it's not working. Like don't keep puttingthinking like, if I keep putting more money into this, it'll start workingall of a sudden like be honest with yourself and try to look at what isworking and maybe redeploy some of those dollars toward what is and andfurther away from what isn't. So those are the kind of things. I think it'sjust being open minded and like looking at it regularly, like you don't launcha campaign and go away, but like on a regular cadence, you're inspecting itand seeing how things are progressing, you know, it call real and most B two Bbusiness is, we're looking at how engaged in measuring how engaged areprospects are through a lead score and understanding all the touch points thatdrive to that lead score. And if you see things getting stuck and notprogressing, you have to, that's like your trigger of where things might needto change and you just go in and you keep working it, testing iterating,redeploying, you've got to be nimble. That's the way it is. It's not set itand forget it. It's an ongoing process. You got to be nimble. What results haveyou seen in your career from kind of reducing some of this waste andreadjusting as you go, I've seen great results from this over time and again,sometimes we haven't gotten it right, but a lot of times we have andsometimes you get it right after all the iterations, what we've seen is justhuge engagements improvement with target market. So, you know, an exampleof a market that car rail works very closely with is a digital marketingagencies And we've really one of the things when I came to call rails, likelooking at how can we better engage with marketing agencies, speak to themin their language, find them and get them into our fold. And we've been ableto increase our penetration of North American marketing agencies like by 20%.We have really high market share with marketing agencies. A lot of them usedcall rail, especially if they have small business clients. So we've donereally, really well with that. But it involves getting into the mindset of amarketing agency understanding where they are speaking to their pains andthen showing tangibly how our solution can solve their pain agencies want toshow our ally to their clients and prove the value of their work for theirclients and we talked to that about that at a high level. But then tangiblyas they get engaged, show them how Call real can do that for them. So that's abeen a huge success story for us, it's been a big driver of our growth, whichhas been exciting. That's awesome. Congratulations friends. That's yeah,if you were kind of to paint like a sweeping generalization of the BdBworld right now, do you think that that many marketing campaigns kind of oursuper focused only have the essentials or do you think you generally see a lotof marketing campaigns? And I'm thinking back to the fact that you geta lot of these cold outreach. So I...

...think I can guess the answer, but doyou think that a lot of them operate like that or that this is a really bigneed for people to move in this direction? Yeah, so I would love to say,I think some organizations probably do it thoughtful, pruned, careful from thebuyer's perspective and let me just back up. I think most people want to dothis. It does take so I don't think anybody wakes up every morning andthink I want to spam uh, you know, thousands of people. I think that thathappens when there's not time or you feel pressure or or you don't feel likeyou have the tools to know what's working or what isn't. So you just doeverything. So I do want to say like, I don't think anybody intends to do that.Maybe some people do. I hope not many. I think most people want to do it theright way. So the key to being able to do it the right way though, is tounderstand your buyer just do at least a little bit of up front and make surethat you can understand what's working and what isn't so that you can tweakand manage. It's very hard. I think all of us as marketers can get excitedabout all the channels that are out there and like so called vanitychannels where there's just never been more places to advertise or toparticipate in. I just encourage people to be judicious test into it. Don't goall in, do it a little bit, make sure it works before you go all in. So again,I think people Get it wrong, probably make up a percentage, 70% of the timeversus 30%. I'm making that up totally. I think people are well intentioned,they don't want to do that. I think it's like feeling like you need to gofast and there's so much to choose from. Like they're just not as judicious oraren't patient to test their way through it or don't feel like they havethe tools to measure what's working and really understand it. Yeah. And whatyou said about doing these like widespread, let's try it. Some of thesethings aren't going to work. So this cold outreach isn't going to work.These channels aren't going to work. Maybe they're doing that becausethere's a lot of pressure and I think to kind of loop it back into what yousaid earlier, like planning the campaign and and having these very,very focused elements of, you know, what are you trying to accomplish? Whatis the outcome? How do you say the right thing at the right time um is areally great way to alleviate some of that pressure as well. If there was onebig takeaway you wanted a listener to either go try out or apply as astrategy or even just tell themselves as a marketer, what would it be? Thenumber one thing that you can do as a marketer is understand your audiencedeeply. So take the time for that. Talk to them, get to know them. Hopefully itsomeday in the future you can go see them even if they're in your communityor if you have to travel a little bit, but get to know or just call them anddo a zoom. We all know how to do that. So just get to know your buyer andreally understand them deeply. That is really the key is knowing your buyerand customer. The other things are all all flow from that. So don't start withchannels. Don't start with tactics. Start with knowing your fire in yourcustomer. That that's how you're going to get success. Oh my goodness. I lovethat. And as somebody who, speaking for myself, as somebody who doesn't knowthe specifics of that, Is that going to talk with current customers? Is that areally good way to get to know your buyer? Or is it is it going out andspeaking with people like maybe like yourself, who they don't you haven'tengaged with their marketing material or even their company at all? Yeah, Iwould do a little bit of both. Like...

...start with your customers. That'seasier. Like understand them. Interview customers that have been successful.Like what? How did you find us? What did you think when you saw this? Likewhat encouraged you to take the next step? Like understand that deeplycapture why did you choose us? Like have we lived up to what you thought wewould be? Have the courage to ask all those questions and deal with itwhether it's great or it's hard to hear or like some things could be hard tohear where you find out like maybe all the marketing was good. But then theexperience of being an actual customers different than you than theyanticipated. You need to know that too. So I would start there. It's easy. Youknow who they are. But then look at your market. I use the example ofmarketing agencies before. Find some that aren't your clients. Like how doyou solve this problem? How do you show value to your clients? Where do you goto get information? Like what are the organizations you belong to? Who arethe people that you respect and follow? Where do you find your information?Like just probe and ask and make sure you understand their pains. Whatproblems are trying to solve? Uh and where they get their ideas andinspirations for being better. I love that you have given so much helpfulinformation. You've educated me quite a bit and you've been so eloquent thiswhole time. so I'm so glad we got to chat today mary pat, how can listenersconnect with you and learn more about Call rail. Absolutely. First of all,feel free to email me at mary paddock, Call rail dot com. I'd love to hearfrom you and I'm on twitter at Mp Donnellan at MPI down Ellen, but callreal visitor site, it's called real dot com. You can check it out, see whatwe're up to. Start a free trial if you want and if you're ready but experiencewhat we have, but we'd love to hear from you, I'd love to hear from you anduh I really appreciate the time With you Olivia and thanks so much forhaving me. I love that. Well it has been so phenomenal and thank you somuch for being on B2B growth. Yeah, one of the things we've learned aboutpodcast audience growth is that word of mouth works. It works really, reallywell actually. So if you love this show, it would be awesome if you texted afriend to tell them about it. And if you send me a text with a screenshot ofthe text you sent to your friend, meta. I know I'll send you a copy of my book,content based networking, how to instantly connect with anyone you wantto know? My cell phone number is 40749033 to 8. Happy texting.

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