What Marketing Wishes Sales Knew

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

In this episode, we talk with Dan Sanchez, Director of Audience Growth at Sweet Fish Media.  

Mhm Hi everyone welcome back to be to begrowth. My name is Olivia Hurley and today I'm joined by our very own danSanchez, he's the director of audience growth dan. How are you doing today?Doing well? Good. I'm so glad. Well I love talking to you, recorded call, notrecorded call and I want to pick your brain a little bit about this idea ofsales and marketing alignment. We're hearing it all the time, we hear aboutit with A B. M. We hear about it just in general about how you know, strategyalignment and all of these things. Um but as a salesperson, I'm super curiousif you were to kind of break down what you on the marketing side. Wish that Iknew and then just kind of make it general to, I'm super curious aboutwhat are the essentials of marketing that a salesperson needs to know inorder to give successful feedback to use content properly, all to helpmarketing get the best leads for the sales person. Whoa. So one at a time,what are we starting with? Tell me first, what are the marketingessentials that every salesperson should know if you would speak for allof us. Yeah, so three things marketing essentials, things that sales peopleneed to know about. Marketing. Marketers really see themselves as thesame team. An extension of sales. Actually think like my main goal as amarketer is to make sure the sales reps are successful. My main goal is to setthem up for the best that they can possibly be like I want to co ownrevenue. I hate I hate being held accountable. That just leads because weall know that system can be gamed like in all sales reps know that marketerscan deliver a lot of really bad leads really fast. There are like box galoreout there that will fill out lead forms for you if you set your campaigns outright that are just like never ending left messages for a sales rep. Butdoing it well can be pretty difficult...

...doing marketing well. I know doingsales really well. It can be difficult. I've had some time in the sales seat.I've worked at 34 different call center roles before trying to do sales can'tsay it was really good at it. But I kind of have felt the sting the burn ofthat kind of rejection and working in order to be understood and discoveringwhat people's goals and problems are in order to best serve them. So I kind ofhave some understanding and I'd say like both marketing and sales wouldactually benefit really well from probably actually swapping at somepoint like sales, taking some marketing tasks and say marketing, taking somesales calls I just think is really healthy to develop a healthy respectfor each other's roles Knowing that we're one team and we really have towork together to get to revenue together and most of the teams I'veworked on have been like smaller where it's like the marketing teams, about 25people at the most and the sales is probably like 30 or something. Sothat's the largest organization. I've worked out where those teams were thatbig and there's organizations, words like so much drastically bigger. Itcould be a very different kind of conversation, needing all kinds ofmeetings and buy in at so many different levels. Usually it's justmean the sales director kind of going head to head, working through what, howto achieve a problem or whatever. But yeah, I think the essentials are wewant to work with you, We understand that we have a lot of the upfrontprocess. You have a lot of the background process, but I still thinkmarketing works throughout the whole sales process, wants to work throughthe whole sales process with you and sales, we want to include you in thefront part of what we're doing, so that there's just alignment, not just in themiddle when the handoff happens, but alignment from what sales expectsmarketing to be doing at the very beginning of the relationship and whatsales is doing at the very end of the relationship with marketing, is there away that you if so if you were a marketer and you were in the sales roleyou'd swapped and you had all the content that the sales enablementcontent than you'd created for the...

...sales people. Do you think there wouldbe ways that you would use that differently than a typical salesperson?Yes. I'd probably use more of it because I'm familiar with what's outthere and what we've written and stuff. So I'd be figuring out different waysto use it at the same time. I would probably find out really quickly, let'ssay this is not sweet fish media and I'm already talking to customers butI'd probably find out really quickly what questions people are asking thatwe have no content on. It becomes really apparent when you're talking tocustomers like what their actual pain points are like what is going on. Butlike if marketers aren't talking to customers or or even different theymight be talking to customers like on a podcast or something. But if you're notactually on the sales call, you know it's really different when it actuallycomes down to them evaluating like what kinds of questions are they asking?What what are their hurdles, what what are their bosses asking? You know, allof a sudden I'd probably discover that there's some gaps in the content mix umto actually be able to use in best serve sales. So then maybe it is supervaluable that the marketing person sit in the sales seat to just be able toget really good until I think so otherwise like sometimes if sales onlyever been in sales, they probably don't even know what marketing could do toassist that are simple things for marketing to knock out an extra blogpost on this may be helpful illustration that just, you just needthat one extra page that pulls things together visually in your pitch deckThat is getting tight together and you know, we don't know what that is untilwe felt the pain of pitching it. My gosh, I've literally put together pitchdecks, marketing designed the pitch deck, thinking it's gonna be so greatfor sales and then I've actually gone to like sell it and I completely gaveup on the pitch deck within 30 seconds and just went to manual mode. I'm likeactually that didn't work at all. I spent all day on this thing and it'scompletely useless within 30 seconds. Yeah, so sometimes you're justdisconnected and that's why you have to talk and work it out together. Do youthink sometimes sales people don't know what to ask for from marketing, Likedon't maybe don't even know how to give...

...feedback. I think in a lot ofsituations sales fills, I mean I'm, I'm kind of speaking for sales so it wouldbe probably better to ask. You probably know better than I do, but it's myassumption that a lot of sales or like Phil a little isolated, like they havetheir quota and then it's kind of like a do whatever you need to do. It'snecessary in order to meet that quota, which can look and some, someorganizations have very tight parameters around what they can do. Andsome have more loose parameters. Usually the bigger you are, the moretype parameters use an SDR, an account rep can do and the smaller it is, themore flexibility you have to come up with your own stuff or going like hirea designer effort to make some interesting sales collateral or writeyour own email copy or whatever it is. So I've worked in organizations beforewhere they were like essentially doing marketing but improvising themselvescoming up with stuff, building little web pages out of google sites, buildingtheir own little pdf set of power point. They look bad, but some of them, youknow, they address different things than what marketing would have everknown to address. So they're doing their best to hobble together thingsthat marketing could have helped a lot in. But marketing didn't know that theywere working on them until we actually visited the sales floor and saw whatwas going out sometimes outside of content. What is going to be helpfulfor marketing to know from sales in order to get the best leads possible.Is there other information aside from like I could use this content frommarketing, What do I need from sales. Honestly, the best thing I could everget from sales is more updates. Unlike how things are going often don't hearfrom sales often. That's probably been true for most places. I've worked tohave to go looking for it, but I never get like, hey, like customers haveshifted recently, I'm starting to hear this competitor, they're starting toask this question more than they used to. Hey, I've had two people tell methis blog post didn't do this, that didn't actually answer the question orwhatever it is, like staying in that...

...conversation. I'm usually hunting outthe information, but there's probably like hundreds of things that are goingon that if I knew about half of them, I could probably help you with with quitea few of them and you had no idea. But I'd love to help because honestly, if,if like sales can't be successful, then no, none of us are going to besuccessful. I almost see like sales is batman marketing is Robin, I am here tohelp and serve batman. So whatever, I just need batman to talk to me. So witha new company, the opportunity to, to sell to somebody different or to findout that there's a better ideal buyer is totally possible. And as that changeoccurs, whether it's fast or slow, that means marketing is going to need tocreate different content. If you were kind of, to create like an idealscenario where that happened, what would sales be telling you? So ifthat's happening, there's a few different things that might be going onone year startup and you don't really know who your market is and you'restill trying to figure it out. So you thought it was this person now, it'sshifting to this person. So at that kind of a situation like marketing andmarketing and sales are really small departments and it's easy to like justtalk and meet weekly in order to compare notes of what we're hearing ina larger organization. Usually one person is the market and maybe you'restarting to find that there's a whole new market and marketing would love toknow about that because there's more collateral needs to be built aroundthis new market. And that happens all the time. We find this product is greatand it works for this. And then all of a sudden there's this whole other groupthat's like, actually we love it too. For a totally different reason. You'relike, oh, shoot, okay, that's a new vertical for the product kind of like,I don't know, this is kind of a failed product, but segue. You know, thoselike nerdy looking scooters right? At first, it was like tourists and then itbecame like, eventually they figured out like, oh, shoot mall cops likethese things, right? So it's a wholly different thing. And that was kind ofan older case study because those have...

...panned out and there's totallydifferent tech on that level now. But new verticals open up on the biggerlevel. And sometimes with established products and markets sometimes and thisusually happens slowly, but some like some customers, well you'll just losemore and more sales because the new competitors come in usuallyundercutting the big person and uh you have to make a pivot there too. But ifsales are starting to get the sense that it's not, they're losing more,losing things to a new competitor of some kind and that we need to make ashift either to a new market or change the product. Then those are allconversations. Usually that one has to be had with the product team too. Sofew different scenarios. Yeah, but marketing should be involved in allthose things and they're going to be probably the last to know and salesneeds to be the one telling them Yeah. Usually sales will just keep, we'lljust pivot and uh marketing still producing blog posts for the old person,the old target, our audience for like six months. And we're like, oh I didn'trealize you changed could have produced a lot of other content, you could havetold me. Yeah, for sure. Well, so a lot of, a lot of people sell to marketers,not everyone, but some people get the pleasure of selling directly to thepiece of marketing directors of marketing. And if they are new to theworld of marketing and I'm just talking about myself here, If there wasanything, I feel like I've had this like immersive experience into theworld of B2B marketing and I've learned a ton, but it hasn't ever been likelisted out in in priority has and if you were to kind of hand off a list ofof like a syllabus for somebody who's selling to marketers of what they needto know um whether it's industry trends or what's going to be the priority fora typical marketer as of today, what do...

...you think? Maybe the top uh one or twoareas of of information? They should No really well about marketers from asales perspective. Yeah, marketers generally have too many things going on,they're busy, they're overwhelmed, they're being asked to take on a lot ofdifferent priorities. And this is honestly the largest challenge foralmost all B two B marketers. We did do a survey of 100 different BB marketersand this was overwhelmingly the biggest, the biggest problem they're running upagainst is that there's them, their executives, even some of their directreports are all seeing these new shiny ways of doing things, strategies,tactics, tools And it's not clear which one is the winner which one is going tobe the right thing, but they get sucked up into trying to accomplish all ofthem and no matter what size they are because this is a problem with twopeople on the marketing team is the problem with 50 people on the marketingteam. They're still trying to accomplish too much instead of stayingfocused on the two or three things that are actually going to work if you canjust do only those things over time and do them remarkably well, they're goingto win. So that's kind of like what's going on within most markingdepartments, Their little scatterbrain, they're chasing after too many shinythings. So I think trying to help them when most of them know that otherwise Iwouldn't have shown up on the survey. We asked them what their biggeststruggle was and that's what came up. I think the other thing is a marketerscan smell your bad sales emails from a mile away. So uh send genuine ones,send authentic ones, put a personal video in there because I accidentallysent a D. M. On linkedin. I just archived it right away because itlooked like a pitch smelled like a pitch. Somebody was literally coming tome saying, hey, I want to bring you clients, I have clients and I think alot of them would do well with podcasting. But literally three weeksbefore I had that same pitch got on a phone call with the guy and he wastrying to sell me like his marketing services. I'm like, oh you made itsound like you had a bunch of clients, you already had that wanted a podcastbut you, you got me, you wasted 5, 10...

...minutes of my time now. So the nexttime that thing came along, I spammed it. That guy was hungry though and hereached out to James and reached out to me multiple times and I was like okI'll give you a meeting and I'm like oh it looks like a legitimate like youactually do want to partner with this. Fantastic. His email was very wellcrafted but it sounded, it smelled like spam and marketers can see themdifference like a mile away. So be careful and how you send your emails,your D. M. S. And your messages try to make them genuine, try to try to readtheir profiles and customize it or lead with overwhelming value, which one'sbreakthrough for you. Then as a marketer ones, anyone where they feltlike they even took two seconds to actually read my profile or understandthis a little bit of who I am if they customized it in a way I knew couldn'tbe automated. And because I do a lot of marketing automation, a lot ofmarketers do we know what's possible to automate, right? So it's just, it'sjust so obvious. I wouldn't even worry about personalizing it with like firstname, like that's anything that can be automated isn't a good sign to make itpersonal. That's why I love personal video. Like with bom bom videos, it'slike a freakin secret weapon because you break everybody's barrier with thatand they actually watch it. They might not be in market for what you'reselling but they're going to consume the message. If you send them apersonal video, especially if you have the whole white board with their namein it. Like what's up chuck, They're going to fricking click that andthey're gonna watch it. Oh my gosh, do you have a white board easel whiteboard?Yes, here it is. It's like a little tiny white board you can buy on amazonfor like 10 bucks or something's by a peck of white board markers and thelittle, what I love about bom, bom and loom does this to, to some degree of abomb bomb. Does it better? An email is that it captures a gift. So if youinserted in the email has that first five seconds, you can have a picture ofyou holding up the white board being like put their first name on it and youwaving Hey Yeah, that that's going to increase your click through rate andpeople are gonna consume your message...

...from there. It's up to your message tocarry the weight. But like if, if people can tell that it's not automated,they're going to give you the time and they'll, they'll even give you a fistbump if you do it well because marketers, marketers are just going tospam your messages all day every day. We were talking about this the otherday of how it can quickly make things super, you know, disarmed people whomaybe are not thrilled with you in just a way of being like on the other sideof the screen I'm a person and I am either sorry for what happened or I'mthrilled we're talking or whatever it is, it takes out this transactionalelement that can be confused by the nature of email being email, but Idon't have a white board. I need to get a white board because I just get away.I just smile and wave and then I have to go at a new, I have to add in thewhite board, it's so easy to throw their name on the white board and getthem. It will earn you way more clicks, which will make a difference in thelong run. It will actually like, it's like an extra five seconds of time, butit'll save you so much time because you'll get so many more people watchingthose things and I totally didn't even think about that being an indicator ofpersonalization in that they might think this is a generic video, I'm notgoing to watch it. And a lot of people use generic videos, but there's, if youcan't, you can do this with images, you can automatically like Photoshop andimage in mass to a person, but you can't do it with video. So it's reallyhard to fake with video, which is why it still works and somebody will figureit out eventually and then it won't, but for now it's working really well.It's the, it's the new thing for a while. I love that. Yeah, it's workedreally, really well for me and it's it's been an awesome way to especiallyget people to not get them to but but engage with people who maybe haven'tread the first outreach or the linkedin message or great conversations havegone quiet. It's just a way of being like where are we at this? Great chat?Um so it's great for marketing, great for sales, big fan of it. I feel like II feel like I have so many more like...

...tools, my toolbox guns in my wholestores, whatever that expression is in terms of how to use content to the bestof the, to the full extent that marketing has created it for givefeedback to you guys about what you need, what makes you do your job better.And then also just gives me deep respect for what you guys are doingbecause in in the same way that you said you like to sit in the seat of asales person, I'd like to sit in the seat of a marketer and because that isnot my my skill set and I think it would quickly sometime and I'll giveyou a marketing task and put you through. It'll be really fun. Yeah, Ilove to do that. Well, thank you so much for joining me on B. Two B growth.Absolutely good to be a guest on the show. I also co host uh the best one of the things we've learned aboutpodcast audience growth is that word of mouth works. It works really, reallywell actually. So if you love this show, it would be awesome if you texted afriend to tell them about it. And if you send me a text with a screenshot ofthe text you sent to your friend meta, I know I'll send you a copy of my book,content based networking, how to instantly connect with anyone you wantto know. My cell phone number is 4074 90 3 3 - eight. Happy texting.

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