What Marketing Wishes Sales Knew

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

In this episode, we talk with Dan Sanchez, Director of Audience Growth at Sweet Fish Media.  

Mhm Hi everyone welcome back to be to be growth. My name is Olivia Hurley and today I'm joined by our very own dan Sanchez, he's the director of audience growth dan. How are you doing today? Doing well? Good. I'm so glad. Well I love talking to you, recorded call, not recorded call and I want to pick your brain a little bit about this idea of sales and marketing alignment. We're hearing it all the time, we hear about it with A B. M. We hear about it just in general about how you know, strategy alignment and all of these things. Um but as a salesperson, I'm super curious if you were to kind of break down what you on the marketing side. Wish that I knew and then just kind of make it general to, I'm super curious about what are the essentials of marketing that a salesperson needs to know in order to give successful feedback to use content properly, all to help marketing get the best leads for the sales person. Whoa. So one at a time, what are we starting with? Tell me first, what are the marketing essentials that every salesperson should know if you would speak for all of us. Yeah, so three things marketing essentials, things that sales people need to know about. Marketing. Marketers really see themselves as the same team. An extension of sales. Actually think like my main goal as a marketer is to make sure the sales reps are successful. My main goal is to set them up for the best that they can possibly be like I want to co own revenue. I hate I hate being held accountable. That just leads because we all know that system can be gamed like in all sales reps know that marketers can deliver a lot of really bad leads really fast. There are like box galore out there that will fill out lead forms for you if you set your campaigns out right that are just like never ending left messages for a sales rep. But doing it well can be pretty difficult...

...doing marketing well. I know doing sales really well. It can be difficult. I've had some time in the sales seat. I've worked at 34 different call center roles before trying to do sales can't say it was really good at it. But I kind of have felt the sting the burn of that kind of rejection and working in order to be understood and discovering what people's goals and problems are in order to best serve them. So I kind of have some understanding and I'd say like both marketing and sales would actually benefit really well from probably actually swapping at some point like sales, taking some marketing tasks and say marketing, taking some sales calls I just think is really healthy to develop a healthy respect for each other's roles Knowing that we're one team and we really have to work together to get to revenue together and most of the teams I've worked on have been like smaller where it's like the marketing teams, about 25 people at the most and the sales is probably like 30 or something. So that's the largest organization. I've worked out where those teams were that big and there's organizations, words like so much drastically bigger. It could be a very different kind of conversation, needing all kinds of meetings and buy in at so many different levels. Usually it's just mean the sales director kind of going head to head, working through what, how to achieve a problem or whatever. But yeah, I think the essentials are we want to work with you, We understand that we have a lot of the upfront process. You have a lot of the background process, but I still think marketing works throughout the whole sales process, wants to work through the whole sales process with you and sales, we want to include you in the front part of what we're doing, so that there's just alignment, not just in the middle when the handoff happens, but alignment from what sales expects marketing to be doing at the very beginning of the relationship and what sales is doing at the very end of the relationship with marketing, is there a way that you if so if you were a marketer and you were in the sales role you'd swapped and you had all the content that the sales enablement content than you'd created for the...

...sales people. Do you think there would be ways that you would use that differently than a typical salesperson? Yes. I'd probably use more of it because I'm familiar with what's out there and what we've written and stuff. So I'd be figuring out different ways to use it at the same time. I would probably find out really quickly, let's say this is not sweet fish media and I'm already talking to customers but I'd probably find out really quickly what questions people are asking that we have no content on. It becomes really apparent when you're talking to customers like what their actual pain points are like what is going on. But like if marketers aren't talking to customers or or even different they might be talking to customers like on a podcast or something. But if you're not actually on the sales call, you know it's really different when it actually comes down to them evaluating like what kinds of questions are they asking? What what are their hurdles, what what are their bosses asking? You know, all of a sudden I'd probably discover that there's some gaps in the content mix um to actually be able to use in best serve sales. So then maybe it is super valuable that the marketing person sit in the sales seat to just be able to get really good until I think so otherwise like sometimes if sales only ever been in sales, they probably don't even know what marketing could do to assist that are simple things for marketing to knock out an extra blog post on this may be helpful illustration that just, you just need that one extra page that pulls things together visually in your pitch deck That is getting tight together and you know, we don't know what that is until we felt the pain of pitching it. My gosh, I've literally put together pitch decks, marketing designed the pitch deck, thinking it's gonna be so great for sales and then I've actually gone to like sell it and I completely gave up on the pitch deck within 30 seconds and just went to manual mode. I'm like actually that didn't work at all. I spent all day on this thing and it's completely useless within 30 seconds. Yeah, so sometimes you're just disconnected and that's why you have to talk and work it out together. Do you think sometimes sales people don't know what to ask for from marketing, Like don't maybe don't even know how to give...

...feedback. I think in a lot of situations sales fills, I mean I'm, I'm kind of speaking for sales so it would be probably better to ask. You probably know better than I do, but it's my assumption that a lot of sales or like Phil a little isolated, like they have their quota and then it's kind of like a do whatever you need to do. It's necessary in order to meet that quota, which can look and some, some organizations have very tight parameters around what they can do. And some have more loose parameters. Usually the bigger you are, the more type parameters use an SDR, an account rep can do and the smaller it is, the more flexibility you have to come up with your own stuff or going like hire a designer effort to make some interesting sales collateral or write your own email copy or whatever it is. So I've worked in organizations before where they were like essentially doing marketing but improvising themselves coming up with stuff, building little web pages out of google sites, building their own little pdf set of power point. They look bad, but some of them, you know, they address different things than what marketing would have ever known to address. So they're doing their best to hobble together things that marketing could have helped a lot in. But marketing didn't know that they were working on them until we actually visited the sales floor and saw what was going out sometimes outside of content. What is going to be helpful for marketing to know from sales in order to get the best leads possible. Is there other information aside from like I could use this content from marketing, What do I need from sales. Honestly, the best thing I could ever get from sales is more updates. Unlike how things are going often don't hear from sales often. That's probably been true for most places. I've worked to have to go looking for it, but I never get like, hey, like customers have shifted recently, I'm starting to hear this competitor, they're starting to ask this question more than they used to. Hey, I've had two people tell me this blog post didn't do this, that didn't actually answer the question or whatever it is, like staying in that...

...conversation. I'm usually hunting out the information, but there's probably like hundreds of things that are going on that if I knew about half of them, I could probably help you with with quite a few of them and you had no idea. But I'd love to help because honestly, if, if like sales can't be successful, then no, none of us are going to be successful. I almost see like sales is batman marketing is Robin, I am here to help and serve batman. So whatever, I just need batman to talk to me. So with a new company, the opportunity to, to sell to somebody different or to find out that there's a better ideal buyer is totally possible. And as that change occurs, whether it's fast or slow, that means marketing is going to need to create different content. If you were kind of, to create like an ideal scenario where that happened, what would sales be telling you? So if that's happening, there's a few different things that might be going on one year startup and you don't really know who your market is and you're still trying to figure it out. So you thought it was this person now, it's shifting to this person. So at that kind of a situation like marketing and marketing and sales are really small departments and it's easy to like just talk and meet weekly in order to compare notes of what we're hearing in a larger organization. Usually one person is the market and maybe you're starting to find that there's a whole new market and marketing would love to know about that because there's more collateral needs to be built around this new market. And that happens all the time. We find this product is great and it works for this. And then all of a sudden there's this whole other group that's like, actually we love it too. For a totally different reason. You're like, oh, shoot, okay, that's a new vertical for the product kind of like, I don't know, this is kind of a failed product, but segue. You know, those like nerdy looking scooters right? At first, it was like tourists and then it became like, eventually they figured out like, oh, shoot mall cops like these things, right? So it's a wholly different thing. And that was kind of an older case study because those have...

...panned out and there's totally different tech on that level now. But new verticals open up on the bigger level. And sometimes with established products and markets sometimes and this usually happens slowly, but some like some customers, well you'll just lose more and more sales because the new competitors come in usually undercutting the big person and uh you have to make a pivot there too. But if sales are starting to get the sense that it's not, they're losing more, losing things to a new competitor of some kind and that we need to make a shift either to a new market or change the product. Then those are all conversations. Usually that one has to be had with the product team too. So few different scenarios. Yeah, but marketing should be involved in all those things and they're going to be probably the last to know and sales needs to be the one telling them Yeah. Usually sales will just keep, we'll just pivot and uh marketing still producing blog posts for the old person, the old target, our audience for like six months. And we're like, oh I didn't realize you changed could have produced a lot of other content, you could have told me. Yeah, for sure. Well, so a lot of, a lot of people sell to marketers, not everyone, but some people get the pleasure of selling directly to the piece of marketing directors of marketing. And if they are new to the world of marketing and I'm just talking about myself here, If there was anything, I feel like I've had this like immersive experience into the world of B2B marketing and I've learned a ton, but it hasn't ever been like listed out in in priority has and if you were to kind of hand off a list of of like a syllabus for somebody who's selling to marketers of what they need to know um whether it's industry trends or what's going to be the priority for a typical marketer as of today, what do...

...you think? Maybe the top uh one or two areas of of information? They should No really well about marketers from a sales perspective. Yeah, marketers generally have too many things going on, they're busy, they're overwhelmed, they're being asked to take on a lot of different priorities. And this is honestly the largest challenge for almost all B two B marketers. We did do a survey of 100 different BB marketers and this was overwhelmingly the biggest, the biggest problem they're running up against is that there's them, their executives, even some of their direct reports are all seeing these new shiny ways of doing things, strategies, tactics, tools And it's not clear which one is the winner which one is going to be the right thing, but they get sucked up into trying to accomplish all of them and no matter what size they are because this is a problem with two people on the marketing team is the problem with 50 people on the marketing team. They're still trying to accomplish too much instead of staying focused on the two or three things that are actually going to work if you can just do only those things over time and do them remarkably well, they're going to win. So that's kind of like what's going on within most marking departments, Their little scatterbrain, they're chasing after too many shiny things. So I think trying to help them when most of them know that otherwise I wouldn't have shown up on the survey. We asked them what their biggest struggle was and that's what came up. I think the other thing is a marketers can smell your bad sales emails from a mile away. So uh send genuine ones, send authentic ones, put a personal video in there because I accidentally sent a D. M. On linkedin. I just archived it right away because it looked like a pitch smelled like a pitch. Somebody was literally coming to me saying, hey, I want to bring you clients, I have clients and I think a lot of them would do well with podcasting. But literally three weeks before I had that same pitch got on a phone call with the guy and he was trying to sell me like his marketing services. I'm like, oh you made it sound like you had a bunch of clients, you already had that wanted a podcast but you, you got me, you wasted 5, 10...

...minutes of my time now. So the next time that thing came along, I spammed it. That guy was hungry though and he reached out to James and reached out to me multiple times and I was like ok I'll give you a meeting and I'm like oh it looks like a legitimate like you actually do want to partner with this. Fantastic. His email was very well crafted but it sounded, it smelled like spam and marketers can see them difference like a mile away. So be careful and how you send your emails, your D. M. S. And your messages try to make them genuine, try to try to read their profiles and customize it or lead with overwhelming value, which one's breakthrough for you. Then as a marketer ones, anyone where they felt like they even took two seconds to actually read my profile or understand this a little bit of who I am if they customized it in a way I knew couldn't be automated. And because I do a lot of marketing automation, a lot of marketers do we know what's possible to automate, right? So it's just, it's just so obvious. I wouldn't even worry about personalizing it with like first name, like that's anything that can be automated isn't a good sign to make it personal. That's why I love personal video. Like with bom bom videos, it's like a freakin secret weapon because you break everybody's barrier with that and they actually watch it. They might not be in market for what you're selling but they're going to consume the message. If you send them a personal video, especially if you have the whole white board with their name in it. Like what's up chuck, They're going to fricking click that and they're gonna watch it. Oh my gosh, do you have a white board easel whiteboard? Yes, here it is. It's like a little tiny white board you can buy on amazon for like 10 bucks or something's by a peck of white board markers and the little, what I love about bom, bom and loom does this to, to some degree of a bomb bomb. Does it better? An email is that it captures a gift. So if you inserted in the email has that first five seconds, you can have a picture of you holding up the white board being like put their first name on it and you waving Hey Yeah, that that's going to increase your click through rate and people are gonna consume your message...

...from there. It's up to your message to carry the weight. But like if, if people can tell that it's not automated, they're going to give you the time and they'll, they'll even give you a fist bump if you do it well because marketers, marketers are just going to spam your messages all day every day. We were talking about this the other day of how it can quickly make things super, you know, disarmed people who maybe are not thrilled with you in just a way of being like on the other side of the screen I'm a person and I am either sorry for what happened or I'm thrilled we're talking or whatever it is, it takes out this transactional element that can be confused by the nature of email being email, but I don't have a white board. I need to get a white board because I just get away. I just smile and wave and then I have to go at a new, I have to add in the white board, it's so easy to throw their name on the white board and get them. It will earn you way more clicks, which will make a difference in the long run. It will actually like, it's like an extra five seconds of time, but it'll save you so much time because you'll get so many more people watching those things and I totally didn't even think about that being an indicator of personalization in that they might think this is a generic video, I'm not going to watch it. And a lot of people use generic videos, but there's, if you can't, you can do this with images, you can automatically like Photoshop and image in mass to a person, but you can't do it with video. So it's really hard to fake with video, which is why it still works and somebody will figure it out eventually and then it won't, but for now it's working really well. It's the, it's the new thing for a while. I love that. Yeah, it's worked really, really well for me and it's it's been an awesome way to especially get people to not get them to but but engage with people who maybe haven't read the first outreach or the linkedin message or great conversations have gone quiet. It's just a way of being like where are we at this? Great chat? Um so it's great for marketing, great for sales, big fan of it. I feel like I I feel like I have so many more like...

...tools, my toolbox guns in my whole stores, whatever that expression is in terms of how to use content to the best of the, to the full extent that marketing has created it for give feedback to you guys about what you need, what makes you do your job better. And then also just gives me deep respect for what you guys are doing because in in the same way that you said you like to sit in the seat of a sales person, I'd like to sit in the seat of a marketer and because that is not my my skill set and I think it would quickly sometime and I'll give you a marketing task and put you through. It'll be really fun. Yeah, I love to do that. Well, thank you so much for joining me on B. Two B growth. Absolutely good to be a guest on the show. I also co host uh the best one of the things we've learned about podcast audience growth is that word of mouth works. It works really, really well actually. So if you love this show, it would be awesome if you texted a friend to tell them about it. And if you send me a text with a screenshot of the text you sent to your friend meta, I know I'll send you a copy of my book, content based networking, how to instantly connect with anyone you want to know. My cell phone number is 4074 90 3 3 - eight. Happy texting.

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