B2B Growth: Your Daily B2B Marketing Podcast
B2B Growth: Your Daily B2B Marketing Podcast

Episode 2109 · 9 months ago

The Way Forward in Digital Experience

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

In this episode, we talk to Mike Ni, Chief Growth Officer at Coveo.

Yeah, hi everyone, welcome back to be, to be growth. My name is Olivia Hurley and today I'm joined by Mike knee, who's the chief growth officer at Kobe. Oh hi mike, how you doing? Hey Olivia doing great, awesome. Well mike you have a lot of experience and a lot of thoughts around the digital experience in B two B as of today. And I'm wondering if you conclude the rest of us in and just take it super basic before we dive into a really in depth conversation about the additional experience, could you just talk us through What it is right now currently in the B two B space? Sure. I mean and I think a lot of times, you know, experiences such a big word, but it just really breaks down to you know, what is it that the that your customers are really taking away and you can think about all those touch points now and you know, if we just get back to, you know what, I think we can all agree that, you know, B two B digital experiences are getting better, but but but as we moved to, you know, from specific challenges, call centers and and maybe even retail or or or you know, having direct conversations within an account exact we have an exploding number of touch points. And what you're seeing now is that it's showing all the silos of the organization more and more to our customers who really want to see us as one company, right? And as such, you know, you're delivering a frankly underwhelming and inconsistent experience. You know, very often we still see websites that just showcase corporate information, you know, really a dump of the online catalogue and just moved it online. And whether it's for, you know, your direct customers or whether you have a dealer portal, right? It really still is lacking or even just self service. And how do people find information or get serviced by? You just have to think about how most B two B buyers, you know, how to figure out what the replacement part number was that's replaced last year's number. Just these type of things all lead to that dissatisfaction and frankly have become just what has become, you know, uh, recognition that BTB experiences are still have a way to go, shall we say? Just be kind. So I'm curious generally why is this no longer good enough or working? And what results are we missing out on? You know, why is it not good enough? Let's start there. I mean, I think we we are all part of the problem. The problem is we or whatever. The problem with us, something like that expectation bar is absolutely higher. You know, I think we've all heard this idea. But let me just give you an example of why It's true the bar is no longer set by direct competitors. I sell dental equipment right to all these, you know, tens of thousands of dental offices and my direct competitor isn't another distributor. I didn't know my competitor now is Apple. It's Uber, it's amazon, right? They're the ones who are saying the bar that not just as in my industry, but across industries, you know, amazon is clearly establishing itself as setting the...

...buyer expectations of, you know, with amazon business, uh, solution. And the question I often hear back is, you know, whether a company is going to be the amazon of the category or amazon will be and and that just gets back to the bar for the buyers are higher, not like that. I hear a lot around. Proxima services are getting commoditized. Your competitors just a click away and hence you have falling margins, commoditization and really processing services are just a reason now or distinct by what type of relevance, how you became relevant to your customers. Let me give you an example and I think this will make it more real. I was on the phone with a account exact for one of the world's largest electronic distributors and we're talking about, you know, what does it mean to increasing engage with relevant experiences? And I thought he would hate the fact that we're taking over his job because whether you're in the website, whether you're in the services or sportscenter, whether you're in the community pages were increasingly using automation and and and to deliver a much more rich experience. And he's like, no, it was great. Not the case at all. His issue is transparent, pricing has dropped down the prices uh and therefore he has to sell more. What he needs is his customers to come in and actually experience the type of experience he would have given them. But self service, which is what people will increasingly want anyway, find the products that they're looking for because B two B buyers replenishing and so you know what they want, how do you introduce them to the right packaging sizes too, given the right discounts, how do you get them to other categories? You may not know about you, a software that supports that category that they may not have learned about the documentation that they need to read about. And then by the time they get to him, he's just closing deals and giving a little bit more recommendation on top. But that even flips around, we talk about experience, it's not just your buyers, their experience is those who are providing that experience. So he was saying how much has helped, not just him, but all these new new kids who are moving into roles like his, you have hundreds of thousands of products in the catalog. They'll never know it all in the same way that you're guiding buyers, you have to have being relevant information, the right information at the right time to the to the sellers so they can provide that excellent experience to to the customers as well. So like I said across the life cycle, we're seeing that the expectations of the buyers are not enough are raising up products and and services again, or another reason why the experience right now, is that good enough? That's being commoditized. Selection is not it everyone can source, so it is being relevant across all those touchpoints and delivering a relevant experience that is now becoming the differentiation and that's why it's not enough. So let me see if I if I've got this by pulling a thread that I think might be part of this. Sure, it sounds like to your point about, you know, you're selling dental equipment, your competitor is not the other distributors selling dental equipment. As much as it now, is Apple or some of these, some of these companies that are setting the bar really, really high is that because the buyer is consuming marketing the same way, whether it's B two B or not. Absolutely. And actually...

...you see the fact that more and more buyers are now millennials And their consumer experiences absolutely translate into what they expect from their B2B experience as well to be able to shop any time. That's why self service has become such a large impact. In fact, we just did a recent survey and we'll talk a little about an impact later and expectations. But millennials said if you don't have a self service option, they dropped the brand right? They expected. The fact is that it's not just be able to buy but to be able to discover what they should be buying and that's all part of the experience. And so when you think about amazon and what they do, it is really providing, not just answering. I have a question, I'm trying to find something, Let me find it. And amazon is now 50% of all starting points because people search start their search there, but the also provide additional information. You know, what are things people like you buying them? Maybe you should have thought of, here's some additional videos that actually help you explore what you should be thinking about in this category. Maybe it'll help you buy better next time again, it's that relevance and finding, bring the right information up. That's making the difference, not just selling the product. And that's the bar now that B2B is stepping up to as well and hence you see the rise of all these initiatives around customer experience. Yeah, so to kind of go down a little tangent here, but I want to Flushes out a little bit more. Could you write a prescription for me for B2B companies starting to have a self service option? What does that mean? What does that look like? What is step one for getting there? Well, absolutely. So, you know, first it always starts with uh the core infrastructure and this is where you have to separate a little bit. Um just do I have an infrastructure, a commerce solution? Do I have a um, do I have the right website? And so there are pieces of just the look and the feel that's part of the experience, but increasingly that's becoming table stakes and so you start there, the question is how do I actually start helping people find what they're looking for? And so from an experience perspective, search has become so important and it's not just search, think about netflix. When you think about search, you don't think I go to netflix to look for movies. Yeah, maybe I do, but reality, it knows what I'm looking for and lays out a page of the types of movies and by categories that I'd be interested in and it learns it takes every every interaction to learn and power the next. And that's what you're really looking for. How do I start first with Just Simple helped me find what I'm looking for and that's absolutely step one and you know, it's not just the state of constant, the best content for whatever set and that's and that's step one. I think the question then is how do you start bringing pages of information? How do you start bringing recommendations? And so let's say I'm looking for a I'm I'm I'm buying pipe fittings and I'm looking for a certain part but that part actually every year the part...

...numbers change, I'm actually looking for this part, this part is discontinued but here are the replacement parts typically that takes a lot of manpower, but you're really looking for a better search to help them find what they're looking for and have tools that automatically start connecting the dots. People like you, are you looking for this actually are looking for this and they find their solution here. That's the first step. Which is just fix their basic search and you know, this is where they get to first. The second thing is really started recommending what people need and this gets into Yes, I may be looking for pipe fittings, but did you know that there are other categories around? How do we put brackets? How do I actually put together, you know, using pipes in a whole set. That actually helps me maintain the most efficient like layout of piping or even software that lets me do piping design. You know that level of education starts taking the next step. How do I start doing recommendations? How do I help discover what I as a buyer should know? That's we start getting more relevant. That's when you start thinking about the experience uh and a relevant experience actually becoming part of the value that differentiates me as a B two B seller versus others. And from there, you could just get increasingly rich in terms of really understanding the individuals who are buying and understanding getting to the next level of personalization, which then actually superpowers both your search as well as your recommendation. But let me pause there for a minute, but that's a basic road map. We see a lot of lot of customers start Commerce is one place, support, services and helping you self service another. Um but cross cross goes across the entire life cycle of the customer. Absolutely. Well, you circled back to my next point incredibly well, so this is hardly a jump at all. But you were saying, kind of get us back on this this digital experience thread, you were you mentioned relevance and I think that probably is a big part of what the digital experience needs to be today. Can you talk about what you think that the digital experience, the status quo of today's digital experience should be? Absolutely, you know, it's funny because this is where it's hard to describe, but we all recognize that when we experience it and were increasingly doing it every day. So if I had to sum it up, you know, we talked about the look and feel, and yes, that is one part, let's talk about, you know, let's put that aside for a second. You have to have the website, you have to have call center tools, but the problem isn't one of a pretty sight. It's not even around like the training, we call center agents, it's around, you know, you know, what we really have is a relevant question, You know, the right understanding people and uh and the intent that they have, it's not about being product centric has been, context has to know what I'm searching for now. It's not about demographics, so much of, you know, these experiences are driven on because I come from a certain segment, these are things I should like. But in reality I may be a dad, I mean I...

...maybe, you know, love, you know, uh, button up shirts, but I'm actually a dad today looking for a present for my daughter. So is it in context? And of course, is it constantly learning? Um, and so again, when we think about the right and what is the digital experience first and foremost, help me find what I'm looking for. And this gets back to just the, you know what we were talking about before search and find the right documents, the right products, the right person or resources to help me complete the job at hand. That could be, I'm on, I'm on a commerce site and that's what we've been talking about. But in reality we have customers like Salesforce, Where there is a 90% success rate of finest solution to my problem, that's a whole lot of calls, not him, you call center and it's also matching the way I want to do it. I want to find upon myself, right, you know, the second part of delivering a great experiences helped me discover, like we're saying, learn, learn, help me learn things to do with the job I'm looking to do and in the context of what I'm trying to achieve. And so, you know, whether it's on a website on my device, a self service chat bot, you know, give me the pieces that I'm looking for and help me get my job done. And I know that's a little abstract, if you, you know, maybe I can give you an example of what would it be. So, you know, 11 example, let's just take sales for us. We just started down that path there, a great partner, we we we were um we work with them not only selling, you know, around the whole ecosystem on Salesforce, but they're also a great customer. And so, you know, it starts off with how do I actually find new things? And so when you go to the app exchange, when I started exploring new products or even knowing what I have today, it's giving recommendations like netflix. You know, people like you typically are looking for these types of add ons to your solution. You know, these are certain training areas that potentially you may want to look into. And so how do I actually find things? And what we saw was working with that exchange? Not only Um did they increase the engagement? I think it's like 25% to 17% install click through as well. And you know, you talk about people finding things easier and actually engaging with that content. But then we talked a lot about now that I have products, how do I support? How do I how do I actually look at finding solutions to maybe questions I have and that's where you're going to the community pages. You start searching for content as I go there and knows what I've, what I have. I don't have to search for anything but lays out, here's some interesting documents that may be applying to things that you could do next. What are things that can learn for me to actually do more with the solutions I have or even now that I haven't found, if I haven't found the solution, I still have to go to the call center. The problems in the call center now are much harder because I've done so much self service. How do I actually helped the, you know, the agents? And this is where, you know, example is as call center agent. Right in the right hand panel, I actually not only have a history of all the behavior, but I'm actually getting recommendations on the content based upon what they've already looked at of what other types of content may solve the problem they're...

...facing. So as I'm typing the case as a reading out to me, it's actually dissecting the words and saying these are the categories of types of problems they may be having you can ask about but associated that here recommended sets of content you can use to resolve their problem. Again, it's around now, not just call deflection, but around proficiency and how do I make agents come across as the expert? And again, that that sense of expertise is a huge driver mps, huge driver of customer satisfaction. And that all the way goes all the way back to even the workplace, as were saying before, for employees looking at, you know, whether it's sales for us, it's sales people looking for the right document to help close the deal or whether it's, you know, we support trailhead. How do you find the next set of content that helps you learn about your product? Again, employees and how do you find the right content? Uh, is a key point. In fact, we see the employees, We just did a survey where workers surveyed spend an average of two plus hours a day searching for the information. Uh, in part because 41% of them feel that the information provided to them is not relevant to the job role they have and that's a lot of time wasted for employees. And so all around the cycle of, of experience, internal and external stakeholders, you know, find that relevant information and delivering the right visual experience applies across the board. Hey, everybody Logan with sweet fish here. If you've been listening to the show for a while, you know, we're big proponents of putting out original organic content on linked in. But one thing that's always been a struggle for a team like ours is to easily track the reach of that linked in content. That's why I was really excited when I heard about Shield the other day from a connection on, you guessed it linked in since our team started using Shield. I've loved how it's led us easily track and analyze the performance of Arlington content without having to manually log it ourselves. It automatically creates reports and generate some dashboards that are incredibly useful to see things like what contents been performing the best and what days of the week are we getting the most engagement and our average views per post. I highly suggest you guys check out this tool if you're putting out content on linked in and if you're not, you should be, it's been a game changer for us. If you go to shield app dot Ai and check out the 10 day free trial, you can even use our promo code B two B growth to get a 25% discount. Again, that's shield app dot Ai. And that promo code is B The number two de growth. All one word. All right, let's get back to the show. So if we don't move as B two B. Marketers don't move in that direction. Emulating and what you just said, putting it into practice, what do we stand to lose? It's a great question. And certainly, um this is one where I I got a great quote from a customer I was dealing...

...with a couple months ago. His point was, you know, if you are irrelevant, you are ignored. And at this point in time when everyone can find things online, there's so many choices out there. This is a matter of not just losing a customer to, it's a matter of company uh survival. It's not, you know, it's it's it's that fundamental. And so and companies. No, it's true. And they're rethinking their customer experience. You're seeing the rise of a whole new organizational titles and initiatives and you see it in the hiring patterns of many companies across industries and we work across all of them whether it's B two B or B two C, and just a couple examples from, like I said, that consumer survey we ran last quarter, you know, missing shopper expectations. I think this is one that a lot of people see stats on, but it's worth pointing out, right, not only costs you a sale, it costs you a customer, even if they buy from you this time, right, 90% of customers we surveyed expect online shopping experience is equal, if not better than the in store experience and 43% would pay more if they could find what they're looking for in just a few clicks. Um, and we certainly, you see the fall off and multiple surveys around if it's not relevant, they're not finding that recommendation right? This is why you see so much consumer business flowing to like an amazon who can provide that. But at the same time, three strikes and you're out, you know, three negative service experiences. And 70% of the respondents said they would abandon a brand and as we mentioned before, 50% of digital natives that they'll abandon a brand if they can't self service. That's huge. We're talking about massive impacts if people don't start thinking about that experience and be able to deliver that to their customers. And of course, employees and that relevant. You talked about the fact that they spend a tremendous amount of time, in fact, the ability to build up that proficiency in the organization often gets to, you know, are they finding the right information and starting to learn the best ways to do the job? And that raises the whole, not only the ability of the organization to handle harder problems, as we mentioned before, but that level of being able to move forward. Actually, we see a direct correlation to customer mp to employ mps and retention, so certainly impacts across the board if you stay on the status quo. So do we need to take a page out of the B. D. C. Or e commerce digital experience? Uh, you know the question, the answer is actually yes and no actually won. Yes. As you mentioned, our expectations as buyers are absolutely set by what we're seeing in our consumer experience. And that is as absolutely raising the bar for all B two B but also, and no, the job is actually a little different. Let me just point to a couple examples, you know, in the consumer world, a lot of times you're just trying to sell a little bit more. You often get, do you want cheese with the hamburger? Right, I'm sorry or the insurance. Right, You get some add on recommendation, but actually in b to B, it's not around selling a little bit more, it's around adding value. And so that could be, let me if actually, if you're buying this quantity, let me get you to the bulk platt been to size and that gives you a...

...better discount or let me give you a category cross sell a lot of times, buyers know what they're looking for. What you really want is to educate them on other things you can do that would help them specifically. Again, how do you stay relevant to their problems? They know that you're a great partner to educate them. And of course this is something we talked about in the pre call. It actually matters more, that idea of relevance and that you're helping me do my job. You know if I made a if I as a consumer make a bad choice of toothpaste alright. My kids may hate me for a day or two. Right dad, this tastes terrible. I've certainly got that, that's what's top of mind. But uh it was on sale come on. But you know if if you buy, you know if you make a bad procurement decision and it causes the impact of the business you could lose your job. It matters. And so these you know we talk about providing the right experience and being relevant and they're having a relevant experience. It actually matters even more than in the B. C. World. So there's a lot to learn in delivering the right experience. But you have to understand that this is slightly different as well. And so this is where you know, yes and no you just have to, you know, there is a there's a line and are thinking to be done as you think about how to apply the best practices. Okay, so I want to go super foundational building blocks here for somebody who's taking a look and taking inventory of their companies digital experience and their assessment is something's got to change. We've got to evolve into the level up our digital experience, what is step one? No, absolutely. And and so you know, we have a maturity curve that we typically help our customers with and it really goes around the horn of, you know, fixing search relevance number one, recommend what people need and then finally look and revisit the core journey and assumptions and deliver on 3 60 degree relevance and let me break it down a little bit of why that's the case right at the end of the day, you know, it's like painting a picture right? You have to start off with a blank canvas first and when someone comes to the specific problem, you better answer their question. And so anything that's the way of that process, whether it's answering a service request or buying, trying to make a smart purchase decision, you have to be able to answer that question and that's what we were talking about before. And a lot of times it means bringing information follow the place, which which is, which is an issue with with a lot of customers that we first bump into Best answer to deflected cases. Actually YouTube video, a lot of times people don't bring in all the information and so they are often limited. So number one fixer, 12 ints. It's uh, you know, it's actually finding all the content and not just limited to what the system can provide, you know, for an open case, an agent needs to know that there is an open bug indira, how do you make sure you bring that information in and today making all these connections? It's hard, this is why searches often so much better to leave the data where it is, don't try to put it all into Big Cdp, it's probably want to overhyped Marketing technologies out there right now, but...

...to be able to leave where it is but actually know that there's certain type of content that actually helps you answer a certain problem best. And with 60% of commerce purchases starting with search and some of our research, you know, certainly the ability to self service and solve that search problem is day one problem. Hence we see that being the critical starting point and some folks really just focus their because their customers, that's what they want. But recommendations and what people need is actually leveraging a lot more Ai and and a machine learning to understand intent, right? It's not just historical data, but real time in constant detects what people are trying to do. I'm buying for my daughter right now. And how do I actually help them navigate to, you know, to to control that, how it actually helped them with surfacing the right content and documents and now brought in from across multiple sources. And you know, most people are captured a ton information from search and what they're doing there. The next step is to leverage all that learning and start giving recommendations. You know, doing listing pages of, you know, you come you log in, you don't have to ask a question now, you're starting to give guidance on these are things that you should be doing next. Here are ways or areas that you maybe want to look deeper into, right? And that actually turns into finally, as you start optimizing within an area like service or commerce, then the third step is really starting to look at a broader and end personalization and revisit the core journey, and I think this is where a lot of people have been jumping right into. So sometimes I think this is too early, but it's always good to have a view of your customer journey. Actually, a great story here. Um a friend of mine soon, you he's author of a book called iconic brands. Um had a great analogy where you how do you focus on the right point of your experience? Is it in your call center? Is it in the is it in the first point of your website? And he used the example of Disneyland, Sorry, we'll go back to a little bit more be deceived world. He had his son take a cran on top of the map of Disneyland. You know, you get that one pager map you get when you first get in there and he just had his son mark down little red dots where he didn't feel like he was having as much fun. Right? Clearly things like waiting lines are sitting and waiting for food. And so when you start thinking about connecting on 360° of of that level of relevance and how to give him what they want at a point in time, you know, you start looking at those friction points and you start knocking down down first. And so as you see about journeys and again, you know, you're starting simple with search and recommendations. But then journeys uh now you start to try to connect the dots and this is where you can start leveraging the data, right? Not only doing things like fast pass to think about lines, but the fact is when he walks closer to the restaurant that they have, the reservation at the table is set right, His name card is there and his favorite character is right there next to the table. I mean those are types of experiences that you can now start to orchestrate because you've collected the information and you can actually start knowing the types of things that are most relevant to a young kid that makes your heart sing, right? And I know I should be using a BB experience story but it's so cute. I just had how to use that story, but exactly the same thing that goes in to...

...be to be experienced. You start with the journey map and where are those frustrations, right, fixing irrelevant searches. One of the first things that need to be uh customers absolutely have because it gets that friction points, How do I finding what I'm looking for? I actually know what I'm looking for. I. B two B. I'm usually replenishing, I'm trying to learn and discover how are you starting to recommend the right things to me. And that applies not just to the early points on your website, to commerce, to service and support, but also to how you support your customers with your internal workplace solutions. And so this is why we see ourselves where I see, you know so much of the core as a starting point of search, fixing the core problems in certain processes because they're fast to fix, starting to leverage AI and machine learning to start bring those recommendations into those steps and then have in mind the broader personalization that you want, the leverage of data you want across the journey to remove this friction points or find those points where you can actually bring more information to change the process. And I think those are the basic steps of how to engage. So I want to get a little bit more into your mind and your experience as you were developing and experiencing these elements of creating a better digital experience and the jobs that you've held. What were those friction points for you that other B2B marketers might encounter. And and also kind of a second portion of that question, you know, what are other general warning signs that people might not be nailing this? Well? Uh so it's always easy to start with the negative first. Right, So I think we all are looking at falling, we're looking at a level of saturation of my digital content that's out there. And I think this is one where uh if there is something that we've all struggled with, which is when we're introducing something new to the market, I'm often bringing new products to market and I've been 20 years actually working with marketers selling Martek and other types of engagement, optimization type of tools. And so I've not only been living the shoes of the market, but I've also been helping other cmos actually try to change the way they experience, you know, first and foremost, is how do I think about engagement? What not only what hooks and that's an acquisition game, but where am I actually putting the right piece of content uh in front of uh each person? And so when you look at not only response to programs which are constantly be testing, but what is the the set of content as we moved into creating, become content machines? What is the effectiveness, all of that content? How am I promoting and therefore what response rates? And that's one that I think we're all watching. Where are we in, you know, in in that side, number two, you know, when we think about general warnings of of when things are wrong, you know, it's going to be breaks in the journey, right? I'm often looking at the full funnel and one of the things that has changed is not just sort of em que ele, but all the way from where people are...

...showing intent and how am I actually able to move them through a level of do they know something about us have to engage with the little piece, having moved them from the first touch to actually start to engage deeper in my content. And then from there do I get them into a level of, you know, why us and wanting to engage with us now and earn the right to be able to get them to connect with one of our sellers. And what's interesting is, you know, now that we, again, we have all this data, the conversion rates, like we said, response percent content, but now we get much more specific about the context by which were actually exposing uh, folks, each one of those pieces of content. And so leveraging, automation, leveraging tools like relevance to be able to surface, right content is where, you know, really accelerating the funnel is where we see it in terms of the friction points. Um, I think we, we, you know, we hit a couple of those and so, um, for me, especially on the BdB world, the friction points are, let me take a step back from a BB marketer when we talk about engagement. You know the friction points are not only on that acquisition but also now increasingly how do we extend that to grow with our customers? And that's become so important now and hence you know the engagement around how do we service the support, How do we actually continue to expand usage? Especially as you move more into subscription based world is so important. And so actually looking at all the transition points for conversion, Not only are early warnings but the friction points of acquisition is No. one The friction points of actually getting to next year of of usage next year of value is actually the next friction point. Let me give you an example. So I was working with a a large grocer and they found that everything starts with a list. What's interesting here is my shopping list. Yeah, every saturday I have my my my my typical groceries delivered to me. But if middle of the week I actually think oh I need batteries and I add in batteries to my shopping list. I shift my perception of who I am. Of who the who this grocery is from just being a way to get deliveries to me on on my shopping list to any household goods. Be top of mind at point of need. That is the next friction point, acquire. The next fiction point is how do I actually grow and get that next year of value with my customers. And so when you think about the customer journey, the next point is how do I actually start mapping to and saying how am I deliberately moving someone to the point where I'm no longer just a list of shopping goods. I'm actually now a point where anytime I have a household need, I think of this uh this brand and that is actually the other kind of inflection point I'm often looking for as I look to not just acquire, but increasing as marketers responsible for the full life cycle to grow mike. If there was one thing that...

...you wanted listeners to take away from this episode, what would it be? Well, I would say this, everyone can compete with the giants who have literally spent, you know, ton of money, millions, if not much more than that to deliver on their experiences. And I think this is what makes marketing so exciting right now, if you want to provide the best digital experience to compete with any of these guys, the tools have been democratized, right? The the, the investments they have made, like the amazons, the apples, the ubers of the world are now actually available and able to use actually less data to be able to come to the same level of recommendations to come to the same level of relevance. And so if there's one message, certainly everyone can compete. They should look at, you know how to get started for sure. And I think you hit a couple of those points. Uh, and there are certainly experts like coviello that can help you meet your customer and employee expectations and and help you along that road, brilliant. Well how can listeners connect with you, learn more about you and learn more about covert? Sure. As always, you know, you can, you can find us at gmail dot com at the same time we have a ton of resources. There are blog as well to just learn about what does it mean to try to deliver relevant experience, tons of case studies, whether it's folks like zero, you know, for mike, uh you know whether it's sales force themselves and how they are delivering experiences. So certainly recommend you start there. Um, you can always find me, My twitter handle is mike me and uh if you feel free to reach out and contact me or my team any time and happy to answer any questions knee like the body part that's spelled and I spelled and I short great on scantron great sketch. Well it has been so wonderful to talk. Do I have learned so much? You've also just brought up a ton of questions in my brand that I'm sure I'm gonna pepper you with later, but thank you so much for joining me on B two B growth. It's been a pleasure to be here. Thanks for having me. Is your buyer at BBB Marketer. If so, you should think about sponsoring this podcast. BTB Growth gets downloaded over 130,000 times each month. And our listeners are marketing decision makers. If it sounds interesting, send Logan and email Logan at Sweet Fish Media dot com. Yeah.

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