B2B Growth: Your Daily B2B Marketing Podcast
B2B Growth: Your Daily B2B Marketing Podcast

Episode 2066 · 4 months ago

Use Employee Thought Leadership to Increase Your Reach

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

In this episode, Dan Sanchez talks with Jonathan Raveh who is the Head of Thought Leadership at AppsFlyer about how he grew their companies reach by inviting employees to contribute thought leadership.

Find out how:

  • Thought leadership is now democratized
  • What employees can share
  • What thought leadership is (and isn't)
  • Ways to get employees started in your own company


Yeah, welcome back to BTB growth. I'm danSanchez with Sweet fish Media and today I'm joined by Jonathan, rava, who isthe head of thought leadership at apps flyer, Jonathan, Welcome to the show.Thank you very much. Happy to be here. So for those of you who are just tuningin and maybe you missed the last episode. But we are kicking off a deepdive into the topic of thought leadership, marketing and thoughtleadership in general. It's a topic that I've become more and morepassionate about as I've studied it over the last year, I've read everybook on the topic, but I still have so much to learn. Every topic has all itsbig points, but it has so many nuances and so many different ways of doing itand honestly, there's only so much you can learn from books and while I'll besharing my insights from some of the books I've read over the course of thisseries, one of the big things I wanted to do and we do this with every deepdive, is talk to the people in the trenches, talk to the people who aredoing the work day in day out because everybody listen to this nose. Like,there's a huge difference between the people who just read about a subjectand the people who actually like live this and do this and breathe this. LikeIt goes beyond books and if you're a marketer and coming out of like, hadstudied marketing in college, like you kind of know, like you thought youlearned, even if you did well in college, you're like, oh, but I didn'tknow within one year of work, I feel like I learned like 10 years worth ofcollege of what I learned and marketing, right? Because having your hands deepin the subject matter yourself is just a huge difference. So I'm excited totalk to Jonathan who's the the head of that leadership, as I mentioned before,and I'm excited to talk to him specifically because he's got more of aunique background. A lot of people get into thought leadership through theroute of public relations. It's a very heavy communications and we'll we'll betalking to some practitioners who are on the pr side. I was excited to talkto Jonathan because he comes from a different background. So Jonathan tellus a little bit about how you got in, like, or tell us like from thebeginning of your career, like how did it start and then how did it slowlyprogress into being the head of thought leadership for a company? Sure, I haveto say right from the get go that, you know me getting to where I am right now,it kind of happened by mistake. Like I think a lot of careers tend to do that.I came from a biz dev sales and progressed later on into marketing,into marketing, let's say writing based marketing roles. So I used to be uh thevoice of a company in forums and then I did some meetups and did a lot of textsand and and writing regarding that. And then I was head of brand marketing, itwas all in the mobile marketing stage which abs fire belongs to. But my realpassion was always writing even before I started my career, that was it. Andwhat happened is that just because of my knowledge in the mobile marketingindustry, the Ceo of the company, you know, he picked me on linkedin notsurprisingly and we knew each other and he asked me to come for for aninterview in the interview, he told me, listen, I want you to do communitymarketing but on the side I also want you to write for our Ceo. So this ishow I got the role. I was head of Community marketing for a long time.That was that was my my official title. What happened is is that you know, wewe we took the community marketing on, you know, on the back burner didn'treally work out. We didn't know which way to go. So I was focused on the Ceoof the company writing his linked in and his blog post. And since he's sobusy I just got bored. This is what happened. And instead of not doinganything, I talked to the Ceo and said, well we're while I'm here let me writefor you. Then I talked to Chief People...

Officer. I told I told him let me writefor you as well. And it started to expand and then the Chief peopleOfficer and then non executives and it started to expand. And in the course ofone year and nine months, it's actually, it's kind of interesting that we'retalking this week because yesterday, the 100th person in the company thatI've written for published a thought leadership posts on linkedin. So itgrew from run to 100 Within about two years. But it was never the goal. Thisisn't why they brought me to us, right? They brought me to write to the Ceo,but I ended up understanding that one isn't enough. Even if it is in the topof the pyramid, everyone has a voice, everyone gets to share their voice andthought leadership. Maybe I'm talking, maybe you're gonna ask me that later on.But thought leadership is totally democratized now. It's not just forexecs that's just it, it's just it's not like a pr thing that you put anarticle or like a thought leadership item on inc dot com or entrepreneur orfourth, it's not it anymore, we're in a different different error in terms ofSaudi worship. So I gradually started writing for everyone in the company andin any position, any role in any seniority level, that's kind of mystory, I love that, I love where you're going with this. I'm going to circleback around the democratization of thought leadership and I think we havea lot of similar opinions already forming at Sweet Fish Media. Um We havea we actually have a term for what we're calling it, but before we getthere um I want to circle back to what you were doing, you said you arewriting early on like what kind of stuff were you writing before you gotinto mobile marketing and community management. How what kind of writingwere you doing? I always had a passion for writing but it wasn't professionallike I used to write short stories, I even try to get on, just get a seconddegree in literature, but then I started my career so I couldn't youknow, finish and get my degree, but I was always, I always had a passion forwriting, It doesn't matter how and what and I guess what I'm doing right now,it fits me like a glove because I get to write every day, that's what I do.I'm like 100 and 10% focused on writing and each of those thought leadershippost that I write and I've written 635 so far, I have uh I have a google sheetwith all of them, so I know each of them, or at least most of them havekind of a story. So even if it's professional, I kind of write shortstories or at least something with a theme in the narrative and this is whatI have fashion for. That makes so much sense that it has more of a narrativeto it. I mean, I know a lot of the things we remember we remember, becausethere's a little bit of a story there, it kind of gives context for the ideaand actually an application to the idea. What usually thought leadership is kindof seen as like a um I don't know, like an idea solution to a problem um orpoint of view, but all those things have context and story provides that itmakes a little bit more memorable, so that kinda makes a lot of sense. Yousaid you'd gotten into mobile marketing and brand marketing. Tell me a littlebit more about that. I was always like, I don't know thrilled about aboutmobile phones even in the days of, you know, Nokia Symbian phones. So this ishow I started really my career as an account manager and working as anadvertising manager from cellular company and then went into thatbusiness development slash sales pit. You know, we can call it it now becausethey say they always say it's like...

...business development but usually it'sjust sales and I'm a lousy salesperson. So I gradually moved into marketingbecause that was actually my way to bring in leeds. So I I used to work foran ad network and I really felt as a as a salesperson about bringing in theleads and closing them. Huh? And I found out when I started doingsomething that I loved like being the voice of the company, advising peoplein developing like mobile developer forms, I started bringing in the leadslike I started actually doing what I was supposed to do as a lousysalesperson. So and again it all boils down to when you do something you havepassion for your ultimately much better than anything else you will ever do. Socircling back to the topic of democratizing thought leadership. Whywould you say that? It's it's no longer just the C suite anymore, like what'skilled that essentially? Why is that dead? I think it's hard to, it's hardfor a lot of companies to praise, to praise Microsoft. But the truth of thematter is I think it's linked in, I think Lincoln made the difference. Umit's like, you know, again, it used to be like the tech blogs are like the bigtech close at the Techcrunch and the Venture Beat and the entrepreneur dotcom and the Forbes and all of those, you know, those were where theexecutives wanted their spot and Forbes whatever. And it was like, it was avery small portion of the company that even got to a place that they couldvoice their opinions and nobody ever try to take a different direction interms of company strategy, in terms of their marketing strategy. Yeah. Youwant the Ceo or the CMO or the Ceo or the CPO, you want them to getinterviewed and you want them to to share their voice. But I can tell youthat in that app supplier the people with the most, the highest amount offollowers on the Ceo. It's a talent sourcer which which, you know, she getspeople to work for a bachelor which is now, she's now in talent marketing uhand the head of sales in in games in the U. S. These are the people thatmake probably more different than even opposed by the Ceo. Although of coursehe matters a lot. Again it's not this or that it's everyone. The power of acompany in thought leadership is the mass is the mass is is the is thediversity. It's the amount of people that get to share their voice and speakup and brand the company as a leader makes so much sense. I mean the socialmedia has kind of been known to democratize lots of things, lots ofcommunications but that thought leadership it would democratize as well.I mean I've seen it myself where it's like somebody's getting more tractionfor a company and they're just a specialist. Sometimes. I literally seeentry level employees who have more followers and get more engagement onlinkedin all the time. More than the, the heads of the company. So you'reright and companies can either let that person go about or it can actuallymaybe pull that person into, into some kind of program for the rest of thecompany. It's something we do here at Sweet Fish. We actually have what wecall the Lincoln evangelist program where we have some requirements for theemployees, but we actually even throw resources behind employees linked inaccounts knowing that it works remarkably well. And some, someemployees do better than others. Some just know how to write well and liketheir post just connect and go viral. Um, and they all have their own uniquevoices. So we found it's been working particularly well. What are some of theadvantages you've seen? Um, as you get more and more employees on board atapps flyer? What's happened differently because you're bringing more peopleinto it than before? First of all, we...

...didn't, you know, I dare say I'm not tosee, I'm not the CMO, but I dare say that, you know, thought leadershipwasn't really weaved into our marketing strategy before I started my role. Nowit's weaved into it, it's not weaved into it in terms of that's what we'reconstantly thinking about. But when we're talking about the differencebetween dimension and legion, then thought leadership really takes overthis is where this is where we shine. Once you understand that thought theissue isn't meant to give you leads and I think that's the, that's the biggestimpact that we made in the that I made in the company. Then we realize thatthis is a dimension to another legion tool, it's a branding tool. Then yourealize the impact that it has. The impact that it has is not only on thelead to get the impact that it has is the amount of people who request workfor us as employees to work with us as partner to buy from us as customers.You know, it's all of the above and you can see like a lot of things in life,it goes viral, like the amount of excitement people have about them beingthought the earth, it spreads around the company and people other people goand say, you know, I want some of that. So it's exciting for the rest of theemployees. Like it's almost like a, it's a way to reward employees bygiving them exposure of a kind and helping them develop in their career.Would you say it's like almost like an incentive to remain at apps fire? Idon't know if it's an incentive, but I think it will be you don't want todisregard the fact that people that are thought there's will later on getbetter offers, improve their careers and get just get climbed the corporateladder faster. You know, it's a kind of like singing in the shower, you may bevery, very good at what you do, but if you don't voice it out, less peoplewill notice it and and people understand that. And, and as a company,I think that's a that's a big challenge for a company to say, I'm not afraid ofbuilding people's reputation and risking losing them because they get tobe in the spotlight and then, you know, other companies will just grab them, acompany needs to realize it and say, I'm not afraid, you know, I might losesome of them, but it's worth my while because the impact on my brand isdramatic. So we're going to democratize thought leadership within a company forthe listeners who are listening to this in our interested or starting to becomecurious like, huh? What would that look like? The, roll it out? How would theyknow if this is a good approach for their company? Are there anything anykind of companies that this probably wouldn't be the best best approach for?We'll start with that. Like are there any companies that this wouldn't be agood idea for it? You can think of. I actually don't, I'm sorry to say I notonly do, I think this fits all companies, especially high techcompanies, anyone who has any kind of relevance to linkedin or socialnetworks, I think this fits all roles, like from the ceo to the janitor. I'msorry to be non politically correct, but every single person in the companyhas something they can speak about and every single person unless the companywants wants just to waste money has some sort of significance for thecompany's results and if so they can speak about them. So this fits in myeyes. This fits not only every company, it fits every employee in every company.Okay. That's interesting. I'm trying to think through companies that I thinkmight not be as good of a fit. Like high tech makes sense because usuallyhigh tech is high tech because you're pushing the envelope in some way. It'sinnovation and innovation and leadership Marketing go really well,right. Thought leadership is almost like the positioning of innovation. Butfor other companies, maybe you're the low cost leader in your category andyou sell commodities and you just do it...

...better and faster and can deliver it ata lower cost than most people. How does thought leadership work its way into acompany like that? If you're selling commodities, it's all about thoughtleadership in in essence, it's all about creating some sort of awarenesstwo Your expertise and to a problem. So this fits everything. It doesn't matterif you're selling hardware, computers or a suspect from like uh like apps,right? It really doesn't matter. You need to speak about what people careabout, not about yourself, not about the company, only about what peoplecare about. And you know, it fits, it kind of fits everyone. It fits me tosee if it's me to be, maybe the platform is different. Maybe if you're,if you're doing me to see if your end customers on companies, there arepeople then then go to facebook or or uh I don't know or twitter, twitterfits everyone but instagram or facebook or other places. If you're selling, Idon't know, microchips then go to a technical platform where people discussit and talk about that stuff. But if you're talking about business then goto Lincoln and talk about business. So I'm still thinking about like someonewho sells commodities maybe like, I don't know like manufacturing parts tomanufacturers, right? Commodity, just steal something like that. I waswondering if like if you're trying to come up with a thought leadershipposition for those companies, would you be like interviewing employees and howthey keep costs low, how they're efficient they are because that's whatpeople care about is getting the bottom dollar right? I'm not sure that theycare about how it's made more than getting the low cost, getting the goodsat low cost and making sure they're at a certain quality level or whatever. UmBut maybe there's a story, there may be, there are thought leadership positions.Um I think about a popular grocery store that's been kind of blowing uphere in the US that beating out things like walmart is all the, so it's kindof a german grocery chain and I don't think they have all the there in Israel,but it's essentially just efficient. They only have a few employees and theemployees are cross trained and you can't like grocery carts, you don'tleave them in the parking lot, you have to put them back to because you have toget to use a quarter to like unlock it and put it back at your quarterback.But they have all these like little things that are just different andbring all their prices down real low. There are also small compared to likethe typical huge walmart stores we have here. But I know they have a rave likea huge following and a cult following for this grocery store because theydeliver good stuff and it's cheaper than everywhere else. Um But almostthink like no, I can see a thought leadership position for a store likethat even though they're the low cost leader. I don't know if leadershiplends itself as well to a company like that as it does to innovative companies.But I could probably see a way where thought leadership can be used even formost companies though I'd be interested like with you are rolling out this kindof a program and you want to go beyond the C suite, you're starting at a newcompany, they want to get started. How do you roll this out? Well, that'sthat's a great question. I don't know what I what I would have donedifferently. But I I can tell you that right now I kind of have across a verydistinct process with with a new person. Like what I've learned in the in thepast two years is that each person is very very different in the work processand his writing styles and it's writing skills and it is enthusiasm and in thisand everything about each and every person that right is different. But thebeginning is usually the same. What I do is I kind of interview them. Like Isince I'm in mobile marketing and I have the experience of the of theindustry in which we we operate so I kind of know you know the basics butthen if it's a C. T. Oh I don't know anything about it and if it's the chiefpeople officer I certainly know, don't know anything about HR So I needed tolearn that stuff about what they do. So...

...what I do is just I just interviewedthem and when I interview them I usually just asked them very verytypical questions about stuff that they have been involved in and what theythink about A. B. And C. In the industry, in the company challengesfailures. I really like those because people can really it really resonateswith people because everybody fails um successes uh limited. But we we talkabout them as well about that as well and anything they have any passionabout, basically I'm looking for their passion and in my Experience 100% ofthe people I talked to the difficult was the easy ones. They all havepassion. So I'm trying to find those and then I just asked them a questionis usually a process with a google, like a conversation with in zoom likewe're having right now, then a google a google dog with questions they answerand each of their answers, I turned into a draft, they look at it, then we,you know, we ping pong the style and you know, the narrative and everythingand then, you know, the process becomes much, much easier Down the road once wegot we start, you know, sending a few out and they kind of get to know whatit feels like to be a thought leader, to be, you know, to for people to likeand comment and their view, the profile views goes up 250% suddenly and theyget a lot of connection requests so they need to get used to it and I needto encourage them all the time. So for a lot of times it's uh for many in manyoccasions I just, I hold their hand for a very long time. Hey everybody Loganwith sweet fish here. If you're a regular listener of GDP growth, youknow that I'm one of the co hosts of the show, but you may not know that. Ialso head up the sales team here is sweet fish. So for those of you insales or sales ops, I wanted to take a second to share something that's madeus insanely more efficient lately. Our team has been using lead I. Q. For thepast few months and what used to take us four hours gathering contact datanow takes us only one where 75% more efficient were able to move faster withoutbound prospecting and organizing our campaigns is so much easier than before.I'd highly suggest you guys check out lead I. Q. As well. You can check themout at lead I Q dot com. That's L E A D I Q dot com. All right. Let's get backto the show, man. It's, we're doing something really similar at Sweet FishMedia. So even before we started recording this interview, he's like, heasked cause he's looking for more people. It's doing what he's doing. I'mlike, we're getting really close. We're getting, I'm behind you, but I'm notfar from you. But we've been, I've been systematically interviewing employeesand trying to get them set up as I'm not positioning them as like thoughtleadership content. We're telling it the Lincoln evangelist program, right?But I'm usually trying to find their unique spin and I'm usually trying tofigure out how to do somewhat tie it back to the company. but notnecessarily like we have some people that have, like a, like one of ourpodcast producers runs a podcast about uh, it's called recruitment hell, right?So uh, recruiting hell, if you, so if you want to find a good show on how tobe better at finding jobs and getting out of recruiting hill, like you can gosearch that in the podcast right now. Great show. But I'm trying to figureout ways to like incorporate both. How do we pump up his positions that he'sdeveloped with his own personal brand as well as crossovers between, ofcourse, podcasting since he has a podcast in the brand. I'm wondering howyou're managing that process when you're interviewing people, Are youtrying to position them on the things that they're passionate about and, andtie it back to the company? Or do you try to tie it back to the company moreso like how are you balancing that? Okay, When I do, I do a few uh sessions,you know, I lecture So for some...

...companies and I always use one of theslides there, the first size about how to do thought leadership. I used theslide from Fight Club. Well, you see brad pitt without a shirt and it says,the quote is the first rule of fight Club. You do not talk about fight club.So the first rule of thought leadership, you never talk about your company, Younever talk about the company. So my role is, it's like 100% thought theissue of 0% promotion. You know, that's why I personally, again, you know,everyone can do whatever they want. You know, I'm not telling anyone how to dotheir own business, but I I try to stay away from the world evangelist becauseevangelists which are great, I'd love to be an evangelist one day. They'repromoting the company. I don't want to promote the company. Okay, what what Isense when people right on Lincoln, is that the minute you kind of smell thatthis is a promotion, People lose 90% of their, you know, their attention oftheir attention, you know, and people can smell it a mile away like sharksand then when it becomes a promotion, it's not interesting anymore. It's likea billboard on a highway and you know, you forget about it. The main goal inthe audio ship is to inspire people or to get people to to feel something. Itsounds like a cliche, especially when we're talking about the business waswho wants to feel, you know, this is this is business, it's not aboutfeelings, but people feel inspired. They don't think they're inspired, wewant to inspire them and we can't do it If we're talking about our company. Sofor me it's 0% promotion. Like and and and it's tough but that's what that'swhat and we can't always get there but that's where we're always going to aim.So funny. I've used that same picture of fight club but I have a differentrule and my rule is the number one rule of thought leadership is that you can'tcall yourself a thought leader. Oh that's pretty good. As you callyourself a thought leader. You can be one, you can aspire To be one, you canwork towards being one but you can recall yourself one right? Completelyagree. That's very true. Even worse. Probably in my opinion, worse than justpromoting your company out, right? Is calling yourself a thought leader andthat's what everybody rolls their eyes and that's why I thought leadershipkind of has a kind of has some baggage, right? It's got a little cringe esometimes, but it is what it is. It's a tried and true topic. But man, it'sit's interesting. Maybe I need to change the name of our program becausewe don't intend for employees to promote the company specifically andtalk about sweet fishes services. And I find that good evangelists, even forother companies that are there literally like their job title isevangelists don't talk about the company. They're usually promoting theideas of the company, maybe the position of the company and there theirway of thinking. But they're rarely ever talking about the company Ethanbeauty of a bomb bomb comes to mind. I'm like, I'm like Ethan doesn't reallytalk about bom bom that much. He's promoting the ideas behind bom bom andthe personal video sharing software they have. So I agree that that'sthat's a really important rule even then when it comes. So maybe maybe youdon't position it to talk about the company, but do you, do you try tobring it, do you do when you're crafting thought leadership for maybelike your your you said your head of people, your HR person, Are you mainlyhelping that person talk frame up her opinions on HR or does it tie back,does it somehow tie back to the, you know, the topic your customers areinterested in? Maybe maybe they're not as interested in HR Now I every persontalks about what they do, they don't talk about what they don't do becauseit has to be driven from their passion and from their expertise. This is howwe want to portray them. So an HR person doesn't matter if the chiefpeople officer or the head of people...

...analytics or I don't know a recruiter.Um they're gonna talk about HR, they're gonna talk about careers, they're goingto talk about people living, we're going to talk about the onboarding newemployees, they're gonna talk about why we're having breakfast in the company.What's the importance of Brexit? I'm mentioning it because it's one of myfavorite, my all time favorite posted. I've written, why do we have breakfastin the company? It's not about giving people the perks, it's about connectingpeople, that's that's the main thing. And we can talk about that, about whywe're having breakfast in the company without mentioning apps. Fire at all.Okay. Just by raising the awareness that we understand that breakfast isfor connecting people. This means for people that we understand that we wantto connect people and this makes our company a better company to work for inthe eyes of the reader. That's all we want to do. We don't need a link in theend of here's the open positions. We don't need it, they're going to searchfor it. It's again, we're going back to where we started. This is thedifference between dimension and legion, and I would really recommend that you,if any one of our listeners or you if you don't know, chris walker, uh, fromrefined labs, look him up on election. He talks about the difference betweenlegion and imagine all the time. And I really dig that because up until a fewyears ago, nobody really understood the difference and there's a huge, huge,huge difference. Yeah, Now we just, we just finished up a deep dive last monthon demand gen we had chris on the show. It was good to get clarity on demand.Gen is essentially generating demand, helping people want what it is. Yousell not necessarily you, but for the general category, it's almost likeyou're creating more desire for it versus legion is capturing that desire,right? I mean, you could do just legion because there's in some categories,there's already demand for it. So you just go and bid on adwords and S Ceoand capture it. But demand gen is going out ahead of that and creating moredemand for it, you know, and hopefully more demand for how you do it right. Um,so thought leadership certainly dips into that. I find that thoughtleadership and I've heard you said this already like overlap somewhere betweenbrand and demand jin doesn't dip into legion, but it's like floats betweenthose two To come back to how you rolling this out of your company though.If you were starting over, would you roll this out as an announcement to allemployees? How do you like if it's a larger company you have like 200 and500 or more employees, it becomes too overwhelming for a single person towrite thought leadership content for it. So like how do you roll it out? How doyou select employees who's in and who's out of this program or out of this? Youjust touched a very uh sensitive point. You know, in my in my in my role it'sreally hard. I don't, first of all I don't discriminate, I don't chooseanyone over the other. I let it I usually it's kind of my role expandedlike like in a viral way so people heard and then people talked and thenthey came to me. I kind of created a demand jin campaign with what I wasdoing inside the company. So people came to me and it kept expanding. Idon't say no to anyone. But what I've learned is that some people would wantme to write one piece for them and then they decide it's not for them, you knowto invest so much because thought leadership is an investment, I can doall the work. But even when I write the entire piece, people still have topublish it and then to comment when people comment and to add the increasetheir network etcetera etcetera so they need to invest in it. So a lot ofpeople can't handle it on on a daily or certainly on a on a weekly basis. Sowhat happens is I work with everyone. I say yes to everyone and I'm in mycapacity, I'm pretty full, yes, I'm...

...very busy. And what I try to do, whichI haven't succeeded 100% yet is to teach people how to write and thenturning me into less of a of a writer and more into an editor, which makes mylife a bit easier and quicker and increases the frequency. But in orderto do that, that person has to have a certain skill set like writing skillsand ideation skills. So a lot of people have, you know, our super professionalhave a zillion ideas, but they don't know how to bring it out of themselves.And that's one of my biggest roles as head of thought leadership is taking aputting my my hand literally inside their throat and night taking the ideasout and you know, presenting to them and saying, here's here's what youshould be writing about and then here and say, all right, you know what, thisis interesting. Yeah, that's right about it. So, it's kind of a neverending story. Um some do that, some do some do the others and I do favor whenstuff is like sometimes stuff is urging with the ceo I'll always give him likepriority, but I will never say no to anyone who wants me to write a piecefor him, no matter what the subject is. Gotcha. Something we're trying here isby if we're going to put a company resources behind someone's personalbrand and we want to do it because honestly, I've I uh I did some researchand even in our hubspot account, I can track where like our income, ourpipeline was generated um and Lincoln's through the roof. And I know it'sbecause a bunch of us are posting on linkedin and getting massive traffic. Ican track it from just reach to comments and then to our inquiries anduh to to pipeline right when they become a customer and say like, oh,like how'd you hear about us, lengthen shows up a lot and it's produced a tonof revenue, hence we're expanding it. It was just the kind of the executiveteam with a few extra people, but now we're just kind of rolling it outcompany wide. one requirement I'm putting in place and I might, I don'tknow, we'll see how this goes is that I want them to write at least for a month,a couple of times a week. And just to get into the habit of writing of justgoing through it and then continue writing as long as they're part of theprogram and we're helping them produce content. Now, we have a more entrylevel employee that's helping them flesh out their ideas. I usually do thefirst interview um where I'm talking to them and kind of like you like you'repulling the ideas out of them, it's really kind of like getting all theirideas out on the table and then someone like you where I can like be like, ohwell actually that's a unique idea. That's pretty good. So you're callingout the ones that they didn't even know were like unique and helpful and that'sprobably the hardest part, in my opinion, is actually having theexpertise to know which ideas are worth putting out there, which ideas are not.I find that's the value I can provide. And then we have a writer that is agood writer and can write clearly and she's really fun, witty and can helpthem flush out those ideas into more things if she can if I can get them totalk about a couple of them. But that but that's a very important point. Ithink it's it's in terms of of of writing twice twice a week or once aweek, writing is a muscle. You know, it's it's a muscle you have to train itto get better. It doesn't work any other way. Some people are more skilled,other or less skilled but they all need to practice it. Which is why by the wayI'm writing myself for myself, I didn't I I didn't write on linked in before Istarted this position. I'm writing it to understand what about the otherpeople that I write for going through. You need to practice what you preachand everybody needs to do it on some sort of a regular basis to to improve.And I do agree with you that sometimes it starts with the with the executivemerely because the fact that other employees see the executives and wantto imitate in a very good way The executives. So it would start with theexecutive, but then I think in a...

...company um certainly a sauce company, aB2B company, you want that kind of inspiration to trickle down to everyemployee. Fantastic. I hope more and more companies figure this out becauseI feel like linkedin is just ripe with opportunity. There's so much, so muchgoing on there and I find the more employees I get on there, the moresynergy it builds, the more they're interacting with each other. So we'retrying to help facilitate this and accelerate growth just by even creatinggetting all the employees in and I'm excited and commenting on each other'sstuff which naturally gets out in front of more people. It's interesting thatyou're helping them just focus on what they're passionate about. So that'skind of like my takeaway from this is you're just letting them beat them. Weused to say like 80% you, but talk about sweet fish and not necessarilyabout sweet fishes services or products, but you know, podcasting, since we're apodcast agency, like talk about podcasting somehow. Um but naturally, Iguess if they're doing their job and they work at a podcast agency, it'sgoing to come up naturally organically. It's not like you have to be like, oh,you know, throw a post in there every once in a while about podcasting,they're probably going to talk about it because they have to come up withcontent. Yeah, I mean if you if you have some content to share, look uh onoccasion occasionally we have like we have a very we do a lot of researchers.We have a lot of data about the industry and we share it. We have a lotof reports that were issuing out. Sometimes you have to promote thecompany or any sort of content that the company issued. We have a new productwe have. Sometimes you have to do it, but I reject the fact that you have todo it like 80%, It doesn't work. You have to do it. 100% thought leadership.Pure thought leadership, non promotional. If something happens andthere's some stuff that happens that you want to promote. It's totally fine.And when you get when you do pure thought leadership and people see whatthe thought leader than anything else, you're going to promote. Its going toget much more attraction. So it doesn't have to be like 80%, I don't I don'tnecessarily agree. It's in a it's in a it's on a need basis if we need. Buteven that I have to say one more thing, there's a certain way in how you get topromote content, even promoting content, there's a certain there's a right wayand the wrong way. In my opinion, in my opinion, it's like you can do here,here's our podcast, here's our podcast, here's our product, here's our feature,here's what we do, we're the best. Here's the link that's the wrong way.In my opinion, the right way is to create awareness or why would this eveninterest me as a reader, talk about that. Talk about the pain then in theend you can you can put the link inside. I have a lot of examples of how thatpure promotion worked, awful, like really, really, really bad. Didn'ttrigger anything. Got a less views, not enough length and that thoughtleadership be kind of promotion got a lot more attraction. I agree that almost all of it should benon promotional every once in a while. I don't know, it's kind of a Gary Vthing, right? It's jab, jab right hook every once in a while I'm like, I throwin a right hook and like the last time I did that it turned into two SQ turnedinto three SQL and one became an actual customer within three weeks. I'm like,wow, I think I should throw more right hooks. Like just every once in a while.Like if you're posting multiple times, I post like nearly every day, at leastfive times a week. If not seven times amazing. I'm posting, I'm like once amonth I could throw a solid right hook, but I'm also like, it's one out of like20 or 30 post, right? But I think you can say like, hey look, I'm doing, I'mdoing consultations, soap. Do you want to learn about this thing? Let's, let'sjump on a show right now or jump on a phone call and then people DM me andthey're like, I'd love to have actually been thinking about starting a podcast.I'm like, fantastic. Let's tell your weight the way I do a first sales call.Or if I kick them over to sales,...

...sometimes I take it myself as amarketer. I like to jump on the sales, see it every once in a while, just justto learn selfishly as a marketer. But the way we even do sales is very likeconsultative. Like honestly we will tell you to go down the street to ourcompetitor if we feel like that's a better fit for you or tell you how todo all of it by yourself. If you're that kind of like marketing department,do you like to do stuff in house dang? I will give you the full playbook. Soit's like even on that column, like value and I'm like if we want to talkabout sweet fish services and prices and how we can help them. Let's talkabout that too. So even when I am promoting the company, I'm really likeI'm trying to get people to start podcasts really what I'm starting totrying to do anyway, that's the right way. Well man, this has been veryinsightful. I want to ask one question if there's anything I left on the weleft on the uh or didn't get on the table here regarding uh democratizingthought leadership, regarding getting your employees involved in the thoughtleadership game out there Anything else our audience should know about thisbefore I jump into some rapid fire questions for the end of the interview.Yeah. Just stop being afraid. That's the secret. Stop being afraid. Nobodyremembers failed posts. No one remembers. You can write 20 failed post.Nobody will, you know, give them and then you can write one good one andeveryone will remember and then you build your reputation based on that one.Nobody remembers failure. So just keep trying, keep writing True. Oh, that wasgood dang. If you're listening to this right now, you need to hold if you walkaway with 1, 11 gold nugget from this interview and there was lots that wasthe one. Just take more swings. No one if you mess up and you like have ahorrible typo in the headline said nobody's gonna remember tomorrow. Itdoesn't get the views anyway because the link, the algorithms gonna bury it.It's all about the winners. Remember last summer I had a huge winner on onthis exact topic, I was like just volume over. I'm a big proponent oflike quantity over quality because quality is kind of subjective anyway.And the way you find the quality post is just by doing more of them fasterand then you'll find out what topics actually hit and connect in the waythey connect and then you can get to the quality ones faster if you justpost more. Of course that's scary as heck. And it's hard to get your as evenfrom a Ceo's perspective, it's hard to give all your your boys voices. Youknow, it's like to have full control. That's okay. You're right. So have lessfear going right more post. So let's jump in some rapid fire questions. Iknow almost all of these can lead into like an hour long interview bythemselves. But I wanted to do this. This is something different we're doingfor this deep dive is doing these rapid fires and I thought it would just befun to be able to compare day to day. Everyone's different answers. Startingwith how do you define thought leadership? Inspiration? Thoughtleadership is inspiration. All right. What's the difference between a realthought leader and a fake one? So we talked about inspiration. So I thinkthat the differences, promotion when promotion, you know, sneaks in. Itceases to be thought leadership. I don't know about fake or real, butpromotion is the difference between thought leadership and non thoughtleadership. What's the best channel to promote thought leadership? So that'spretty obvious I think I am for sure it's linked and forget all the otherbig business blogs, you know, you know, it's the Tiktok age, you know, it's aTik tok ra, nobody has time to read 15 minutes uh Prs like a lot of people do,but most of them don't, so you know, for millennials, you know, and forpretty much the entire world it's linked and go to Lincoln linked in whatis one of the best examples you have seen of thought leadership. I think ifwe're talking about, let's, I don't want to talk about about the app storebecause I have a lot of examples from 100 people, but I think Dave girt heartand chris walker from me like really resonate with, with, with what thoughtdealership is all about. Dave Gerhard...

...can write thought leadership pieceswith two lines, you know, but I don't know 100 characters and creeks walkerusually tends to go much, much, much longer and include a video, but he's sopassionate about what he does and you can spot it, he talks about it and heattacks the same topic from very different angles and it resonates itreally works out. So for me, those are very to exam, very good examples ofreal good thought to use so we have, there's gonna be a lot of overlap inthis next question because you've already answered some of it, but whatdo all real thought leaders have in common? So again, the real answer is passionfor what they do and passion that you can feel and see really this is thesecret like good writing and passion won't get you far in thought leadership,absolutely good writing and passion. I love it. Well Jonathan, thank you somuch for joining me on this BTB growth show today. If people want to learnmore about these ideas, I'm gonna learn more from you and about apps, fire,where can they go online to learn more? Just hit me up on linkedin, you knowJonathan Rivette, there's only one party leadership guy on F Slur, so justhit me up. Fantastic. Thanks again so much for joining me today dude, thatwas great, awesome. Thank you Is the decision maker for your productor service at VTB marketer, Are you looking to reach those buyers throughthe medium of podcasting? Considered becoming a co host of BB growth. Thisshow is consistently ranked as a top 100 podcast in the marketing categoryof apple Podcasts and the show gets more than a 100 and 30,000 downloadseach month. We've already done the work of building the audience so you canfocus on delivering incredible content to our listeners. If you're interested,email Logan at Sweet Fish Media dot com. Yeah.

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