Transitioning From Paid to Earned/Owned Media w/Gaetano DiNardi

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

In this episode, Dan Sanchez talks with Gaetano DiNardi who is the former Head of Growth and Demand Gen at Nextiva about the status and future of paid, owned, and earned media for B2B marketing teams.

The last ten years have great for paid media, but is it still in its heyday? Are we transitioning to something else or moving away from paid media all together. Find out as Gaetano and Dan wrestle with some hard questions.

Yeah, welcome back to BTB growth. I'm dan Sanchez with sweet fish media and I'm here with Gitano de Nardi who was formerly the head of growth and demand gen and next Eva gitano, welcome back to the show. What's up dan? It's always a pleasure talking with you so thanks for having me. Absolutely. I've been excited to talk to you about this to get your take on the evolution of paid owned and earned media in B2B marketing specifically paid personally I've been seeing some trends of paid media becoming a lot harder over the last year, year and a half. I know over the last five years it's becoming increasingly more saturated on your paid advertising, your PPC side with facebook google ads of course has been hard for a while. I almost look at like the last decade of PPC in general just being fantastic and now I'm starting to see a slowdown. So I'm doing a series on paid owned and earned to try to figure out what the balance of these things looks like for me to be growth as well as owned media specifically. But before we jump into owned, I'd love to hear thoughts on paid media for B two B marketing in general. Has it had its heyday, is it starting to see a decrease or is it just changing and how it's going, what do you think? Yeah, great way to tee that up dan. So in terms of, you know, has paid media had its heyday or is it just changing uh it's definitely changing for sure and the, some of the things that I see is that saturation and competition is really hurting paid media just like it's hurting every other channel, like a Ceo youtube, social email, everything. The Way B two B companies are running paid media is transforming. So what I see is that for example, unless you are salesforce or a Tier one premier level brand, you will not succeed by running generic landing pages, a book download campaigns on then very generic or generalized copy in your ads, you just won't win and brand is more crucial today Then it's ever been before. It sounds cliche when you hear yeah, brand brand brand, but really now in 2021 as we're heading into 2022, it is the most important factor aside from product quality and um, I know we're going to talk about earned reviews fall into that as well. But as you said, the last decade has been pretty, pretty golden, been like a golden decade. Up until now things are slowing down. But you used to be able to be successful by just focusing on bottom of final plays. It was the case that if you were a company that was only found through google, you could be successful and if you only focused on bottom of funnel plays like PPC affiliates and buying leads from sites like tech radar, you can really brute force your way through with outbound sales and ads, but today you can't get away with it anymore. And I think maybe that's how we can kick off the episode. So the old run an ad, get a lead. It's just not working anymore. Not without a lot of work or thought a lot of brand to support it. So what is currently working in PPC, are you running like a mix of different types of content through, through ads just to kind of balance it out? Are you stair stepping it? So someone sees this type of ad interacts with it then get served this type of ad or do you just kinda have like a bunch of things running in the hopper? What is it, what is your ad set look like these days? Here's the dirty little secret that a lot of markers don't want to admit or just won't tell you. And that is in the, in my time of doing this, I have never...

...seen a google ads um configuration where a company can definitively say that we are profitable from our ads. And the problem is that you have growth at all costs mindset and you know, I've, I've personally audited SAAS companies google ads profiles And I've seen examples where companies are paying, you know, $50,000 a month to close maybe 10 paying customers With an average contract value of like $2500 and so the math is quite horrifying in many of these cases and there are examples lately that have come out Where brands and companies have launched experiments where they shut off all their PPC where they've shut off like 90% of their ads and nothing has changed. And I, I audited a saAS companies google ads account last year so they went public and they increased their spin by like they doubled their spin And they realized that they weren't getting any any return after doubling their spin. And then I went in there and I cut spending by like 70% because I found a ton of inefficiencies We can get into the inefficiencies in a second. But long story short is that I cut the spending by 70% and absolutely zero impact on pipeline or revenue after doing that. And so what is the point of all this? When you talk about the current state of PPC is waste, there's a tremendous level of waste. And um, you know, one reason why is because a lot of companies don't care cost per clicks are rising at an incredible rate in some industries. Uh, the one that I was most recently in, you CASS We're talking about $80 a click and above just for the click. And then when you factor in that there's affiliates um that are extorting companies for a middle man payment. The cost of acquisition is through the roof And when you have inexpensive products. But yeah, you have to pay $80 a click because it's so saturated and so competitive and there's so much money being poured into ads. Companies don't care. Uh, you know, Zoom is just going to brute force you out, ring central is going to brute force you out. How do you keep up with that? If you don't have, if you don't have deep pockets, that is the challenge right now. So what are you doing to combat that? You say you're still keeping it around, you're saying you're cutting things back from like 70% in some cases, but you're still keeping around a little nugget there, you still got 30% in the game. So what are you doing with that extra? Yeah. So here's like, what I think is the transformation that's happening now is, and thankfully there's voices like chris walker and many others, hopefully myself is contributing to some of the changes happening. But companies are realizing that you do have to figure out how to get out of the bottom of funnel hamster wheel, get out of the PPC S EO affiliate Who's ready to buy in the next month marketing and go way up funnel and figure out how do you market to the 90% of people who are not ready to buy today or or soon because if you catch them higher in the funnel, then everything is just easier because when you're scrapping at the bottom, it's often too late. And so I personally have not cracked that code and I will, I will just flat out say every company I've been at I've been pressured into uh you know subscribing to this bottom of funnel, you know marketing machine. So every company have been at, they wanted me to really focused just on bottom of funnel. No companies have...

...ever said to me. Yeah let's think about demand gen in a way that goes more top of funnel or is more brand oriented or is more higher final activity. It's always every single company I've been, we need leads, we need growth, we need, you know dollars and dollars out. We need P. P. C. S. C. O. Affiliates. And I, me personally I have never had the opportunity to market in a way that's different from that and that saddens me. But that's that's what companies want. And the only chance I've ever had it doing something you know, creative or fun or different has been sales hacker because when I was marketing there the product was not sas it was the audience. So we were selling attention. People. I mean it kind of comes with the title, demand gen. I mean with chris walker and his crew, he's kind of like the exception but almost everybody ever, everybody else ever met on the demand inside is almost always bottom of the funnel performance marketing type stuff at least with all the customers I'm meeting with that sweet fish if there's a demand gen person in the, in the zoom room. I'm like yeah that person's running on PPC ads and doing bottom of the funnel stuff. Yes. And you know, the bottom of the funnel is super important. Like don't get me wrong, but you know like the industry I was I was in most recently which is you cast and VoIP there is huge demand bottom of final demand for that, but that's only because the pandemic drove it to insane levels that it has never seen before. So there are certain industries that the pandemic has driven like crazy amount of demand for without marketers doing anything, It just happened because of circumstances. So marketers got lucky. Yeah, the market changed, right? You don't have any control over that. Sometimes, sometimes it's good, sometimes it's great. Sometimes it's great. Sometimes it's sometimes the markets dying, you're like, no, you're pivoting. Yeah, exactly. But it's, you know, you want to find marketers who have created demand without the help of a pandemic. Who are those marketers and where are they? Uh those are the kinds of marketers you want you want to find. And so when I think about hiring, like that's why I look for I look for like marketers who have been like scrappy underdog companies that have fought back against giants. Like I've done in every role I've ever had in my career. Yeah. Now that I think of it I've been an underdog scrappy, you know, fighting against the big guys that every single role I've ever had, you're like, wouldn't it be nice to work for the big guy with the massive budgets, of course, maybe you're like your arms are tied behind your back, if you're working for one of those companies, I've never worked for one of those companies, so I only know what it's like to work with a limited budget, trying to be creative, right? Yeah, Next evil was the biggest company I've ever worked for. Um in my time there, the company went from 70 million to over 200 million and there are, But I truly think my sweet spot is like getting a company from like 10 million to like 50-60, 70 million and then maybe it gets too big for me at that point, but like that pipe drive, that was the case and it was really fun at that stage. But you know, when I, when I think about just S SEO PPC in general, like search, it is really moving away from exact match long, long tail, exact match stuff is like kind of out of the picture now, like you really do just need to focus on keyword buckets, keyword themes and then, you know, the google machine has gotten really smart, so if you, for example, if you're setting up had ad campaigns that are targeting competitors in PPC, it may be good enough, let's say your pipe drive today, it may be good enough to have an ad group that is called hubspot, you're going to target hubspot and you can just set phrase match hubspot alternatives, hubspot competitors and hubspot pricing maybe even hubspot, some other things like that. So find like a couple of buckets and then just let it rip. And then what...

...you want to do is monitor the negative search term report list because you want to monitor the search term report and then narrow it down with your negative or exclusion list and that when you see and then you feed all the insights that you're getting from paid into S. C. O. That that is that is how you scale. But you know the trouble is that, you know, hubspot is an insane brand. So unless you have a brand that can be somewhat you know, comparable to that and fight back like you can't be, you can't be an unknown. That's why monday dot com is so powerful because their brute forcing their way through. And so that that's what you're up against in PPC. And I think it's some of the hardest marketing to do today because you need add keywords, uh copy, landing pages, user experience conversion tracking, spend all these things to be in sync and um you have to know in keyword intent and the customer types and customer segments and if you don't have all those things uh perfectly working in Harmony. I think you're you're going to be uh in a world of trouble. I love some of the nuggets. You just dropped it got pretty granular, but I'm like, I'm, I used to be, I don't know, I feel like I really got my start as a marketer through google adwords. Something about the simplicity of just having to write copy with a few, only a few words at a time and split testing. It was, it was a great, great place to start my career. But from what you're saying, I'm like, wow Edwards has changed a lot. I remember like it was all about how granular you can make it right. The more specific you can make those campaigns the better they performed. But, and I never turned on their automated features because that was just, well they just weren't great at that. Facebook was always much better at the automated features like let facebook figure out who to target. It's not like they would let you target specific specific people anyway, but they were always pretty good at figuring it automatically. You're saying that google's google's kind of caught up, you can let it let them automated match the right adds to the right groups and keywords now, as long as you're keeping a good watch on the negative keyword list. Yeah. In many ways. Yes. Yeah. There's two, I think, I think there's two super important things you got to do is monitor the search term support and then really tighten up as much as you can with the exclusion list and then you really got to pay attention to the quality scores because in a lot of scenarios, and especially in B b um, some of the highest intent search terms are, they can be quite long tail and quite obscure. And if you have low quality and maybe just take a step back if it's long tail and obscure, that means there's not a lot of volume and if you want to have those impressions and clicks, you have to have a high quality score in order for google to say, yeah, I think that this ad from this company is most relevant for when this gets searched, and if you have a low quality score, you will be ineligible for impressions and you won't get any clicks. And so that, you know, that's becoming another problem too, that I've seen is like, um, you know, companies are going to say like, hey, we need to spend, spend, spend, spend, spend, and then you look at your add account and you'll be like, damn, we're just not getting the clicks, what is it, low quality scores and, and that is something to, to really, I think pay a lot of attention to. And that is a combination of landing page experience, ad copy relevant, um, site links, side, extensions, mobile experience, all that ship. Hey, everybody Logan with sweet fish here. If you've been listening to the show for a while, you know, we're big proponents of putting out original organic content on linked in. But one thing that's always been a struggle for a team like ours is to easily track the reach of that linked in content. That's why I was really excited when I heard about Shield the other day from a connection on you guessed it linked in since our team started using Shield, I've loved how it's led us easily track and analyze the performance of our linkedin content without having to manually log it ourselves. It automatically creates reports and generate some dashboards that are incredibly useful to see things like what contents been performing the best...

...and what days of the week are we getting the most engagement and our average views per post. I highly suggest you guys check out this tool. If you're putting out content on linked in and if you're not, you should be, It's been a game changer for us. If you go to shield app dot Ai and check out the 10 day free trial, you can even use our promo code B two B growth to get a 25% discount again. That's shield app dot Ai. And that promo code is b the number to be growth. All one word. All right, let's get back to the show. Yeah, it's a lot more. It's a lot more than just the ads. It's the whole it's the whole funnel you really get optimized in order to make those ads worth it, What do you think about blending paid and owned essentially taking your own media and then amplifying it with paid? Do you think that's a good where people should be spending more of their paid dollars? And if so like what percent? Oh that's yeah, that's a good one. I mean, yes, here's here's the thing that a lot of people just have to accept right now. And that is the way social algorithms work and the way that social algorithms work is that organic reach is extremely limited with the exception of linkedin and Tiktok. So you're gonna get nowhere on facebook twitter instagram and you're certainly gonna get nowhere without pain amplification. And I hope that, you know, unless you're doing like, unless you're selling toothbrushes or you know, t shirts, like you're not going to get like, you know, sales doing instagram ads for B two B. I mean you might, but it's just not likely, especially for expensive products. But the deal is like, if you think of, what do people like me do late at night? You know, I'm a decision maker. I'm a technology by R and B two B. Marketing, what am I doing at nine o'clock at night? Well, um I don't watch the news. So what do I do I spend time on social media sites, like, like instagram and I read like tech blogs and stuff, right? So companies like clear bit, have found ways to advertise to people like me late night and why am I mentioning clear but now because their ads are memorable And so they are an example of marketing to the 90% of people who are not thinking about them and who do not want to buy a clear bit. Right now. There the day will come where I will need some kind of data enrichment solution and I'm probably going to go to clear bit because I'm talking about them now and I remember them and uh, it's, it's kind of the same thing I wrote about in lengthen the other day that had a huge reaction, which is the company in Miami that targeted me for three months on instagram before I even clicked. And you know, you can say that, okay, optimizing for the impression is still good even without getting the click because you're, you know, subconsciously penetrating someone's mind. Uh, such as clear bit. Like when I see their video ads, I don't ever click, I just watched them. Right. So then how do you measure adds engagement? How much time was spent, video watch through that matters? Is your message getting through that matters. So anyway, back to the thing about the company that targeted me for three months before I clicked. I finally clicked after three months and I didn't buy anything. But now I know the company exists, I may go directly to their website later on whenever I need a cool date idea to do in Miami. They were advertising candlelit rooftop dinners with live orchestra. It's pretty cool. But that's the difference in DDB ads today is that you cannot treat social like PPC and you certainly can't measure it that way. And executives have to change their mindset when it comes to this stuff. And the final point is that companies give up too soon. They run ads for like two weeks. They don't see quote unquote leads and they're like ship they, this ain't...

...working, let's let's, you know, Canon. But the reality is like you, there is so much noise, you need a lot of impressions before somebody decides to click now and so you need patience. Uh, and you need to use a lot of different creative techniques and not use just generic, uh, you know, static display ads, you gotta switch it up and use different stuff and that's where I think it's up. What I'm hearing. It takes quite a variety of different content and you can't be dependent on it, converting and you giving, getting the data like in your facebook ad set. So your, your cost per acquisition according to facebook or google is going to be through the roof. But it might not be as bad as you think because if you ask your customers, like if you that instagram ad you saw, if they ask you, how did you hear about us? You tell him I saw it on an instagram ad of course you're a marketer. So you know the difference between what you're seeing and I think most people would now, if you just ask your customers, they're probably going to remember seeing the add quite a bit, especially if you dive into a few depending on how many you have coming through all the time into their journey and how, how it went from. Hey, first becoming problem aware like when did it first become an issue or maybe it wasn't an issue and you just start, you just discovered us, tell me the story those ads are going to come up and that should be noted, right? Not that there's like a perfect mathematical way of keeping track of it all, but you'll hear about it like the problem is it takes a lot longer for that to trickle down. Right? Yes. I think there's two things that come to mind based on what you said to me. One is that if you did add, how did you hear about us field in your sign up form, you would get an incredible amount of uh, qualitative data. Companies are reluctant to do this because they are afraid of doing the work that is required to analyze. Freeform tax responses. It's really not that hard though, right? It's not, but companies don't want to, you know, break the machine. Right? Like think about it. The forums are locked in to all across the web site. There can be hundreds of submissions a day, all that information is perfectly sync and flowing into a salesforce account exactly the way they need it, it's a big disruption to add an extra field and start looking at all that information. Um So companies are reluctant to do that, but if they did, I'm sure that they would be pleasantly surprised by what they saw. Um It would be some phenomenal marketing insights, but companies just don't do it because of the, you know, pain of labor if they want to call it that and then you know the creative men, the Creative uh It's an afterthought nowadays I see companies spending so much time fussing over the targeting criteria, the keywords, the ad groups, even the copy. But then when it gets down to like the landing page or the display creative, it's just like yeah, let's just pull something off the shelf. Uh huh. Uh And that's why the companies who are winning are the companies who don't do that. I can tell that, you know monday dot com is not just pulling something off the shelf. They are making commercials, like their videos are legit commercials and that's the difference. Yeah, none of that. Uh Stock b roll over voiceover, right? Like everyone can kind of see through that one thing. Gosh, I did a lot of PPC over the last seven years and it was magical. But now it's becoming so much harder to do. So I'm kind of curious to see like before, like would dominate a budget now. Where do you think PPC sits like if you have to allocate dollars including like staffing dollars, where do you see it fitting between like the three major silos of like paper click owned media, earned media? How do you, how do you allocate these these days?...

You know, I always, I always put human resources and investing in people at the top of the priority chain for me, you know, I'm from, I'm from the school of thought of let's let's scale appropriately and let's not do it the other way around. So I like it. I like putting people at the top and then if I had to break out a spend mix, you know, it's a, it's a really tough question because like you have to really consider what kind of product is it, how expensive, how much pressure is there to grow? Like all those all those things are are factors and to be quite, you know, just blunt with you. I've never had a situation where uh an executive said to me, what is your ideal spend mix? It's always been, here's what the spend mix is, go make it work. So I've never had that freedom actually to make those decisions and choices. So I don't know if I can speak to that one. Just given that I've never actually Had the opportunity to say, you know, Hey here's $10 million, divided up, how you see fit. I've never had the opportunity to do that before. And so I don't know if I had that much money to play with over like a certain period of time, my personal gut reaction is, I already know I would put like the majority of that to people and try not to waste on, you know, money on ads, but I've never personally had an opportunity before to make those choices some day it's coming, where do you sit on earned media worth it not worth it. It's, it's important man, earned media is important. I mean there's, there's two things that that hit you right away when I, when I think about earned media, one is reviews that is a form of earned media. Um, and they are arguably the biggest offsite factor when it comes to influencing buying decisions. So reviews are our key and I think any company needs to have like a lot of focus on reputation management and reviews that is absolutely of utmost importance. And then, you know, earned media can also be a function of like top of funnel pr and brand you can get, you know, you know, beyond like, hey, we raised money will go right about us. There are other ways to get companies to write about you and it can be, you know, cause marketing standing up for some kind of companies don't like doing this, but picking a side of controversial issues standing up for something, What's the hill, you're prepared to die on as they say, what's your brand's character diamond look like, you know, all that stuff can generate earned media for you. And it's important because not not only do you get like top of funnel visibility and all this stuff, but you get back links from very, very powerful and strong domains which fuel your own domain authority and then that can fuel your SEO campaigns that can help you tremendously when it comes to fighting back against giant legacy competitor domains, fighting back in terms of being able to rank organically for tough keywords. So this whole thing kind of is interconnected, you know, reviews, reputation, product pr how can you extract data out of your product and customers to like create some kind of compelling story and get people to write about it all that plays together and it feeds back. So I think you think it's going in the future, do you think it's going more earned less earned? Oh you're gonna need more, you're gonna need more than ever before because um reputation and brand is only getting more important products and categories in SAs or like convergent and so there's going to be less and less opportunity for people to win based on like some kind of product advantage because there really won't be much...

...since everything is being copied and convergent. So the more earned media, you you can get, the better off you're gonna be because you're going to need that as a form of differentiation and that's just what it comes down to interesting. So no, uh, there's certainly people that are like all earned media never paid. Maybe a little bit of owned. I mean you think of Tesla, it's kind of like all earned media right on one extreme and it's like Elon's marketing playbook is earned. He's kind of a master at it. And then you have like chris, I talked to chris walker a few weeks ago and he was like, no, I do nothing for earned. I just do so good on the own that it earns me. That gives me free here in the media. I'm like, okay, that's, that's an interesting play. He's essentially doing zero to get earned other than just focusing on owned And paid. Yeah, that was the sale cycle strategy. It was zero paid and zero earned. Everything was so good with owned that created natural, zero effort required earned partners would promote us naturally. We would host kick as conferences and big sites would promote us and write about us and give us back links and say how awesome we are, social would have nonstop chatter and rambling about how Kick ask our events are both offline and online. The content was so good. It was a community driven content effort where I would hit up top VPs from all these SAAS companies and have them contribute to the block and then that created this sort of organic flywheel effect that did generate tons of free earned media that we didn't have to pay any money for it all. And that's ultimately why outreach bought sales hacker. Um, and I'm really proud to have been part of that movement and I've been on that side of the equation where you're doing owned so well that everything else falls into place and that was cool to see. So its transition into like owned as our last part of the triangle here between the three. Uh, which interesting to me about sales hacker is that sales hacker is essentially an owned media property without a large product or service behind it. I mean, I know it makes money somehow. I actually don't know what it's business model is, but I think it's primary concern was being a publication. Is that right? Yeah. The way it makes money is from sponsorships, which is traditional publication revenue. What would you think about? I hardly ever see people do this. But once in a while, if a brand like a SAS brand or a service brand, like sweet fish media started its own media property, that's separate from the court brand. Do you think that would be a smart play or is that too much like to try to be a media company and a product or service is asking too much. Mm that's really, really interesting on them. Uh, you know, I think if you have the resources to pull it off, it could potentially work trying to think of an example of that. I can't think of one of the off the top of my head. I know there are examples out there of companies that can take you to the recorded future has the record the media. So that's one that was on chris walker's show and I talked to him about that too. There's also um maybe when you've run into is a PPC hero which is the it's mainly positioned as this blog but it's actually become quite large more than a blog in sc Oh it's it's a big conference now too. But that's run from uh an ad agency I think called the Hennepin remember but that's also its separate from their core brand and you don't even know henna pins behind it until later. If you start digging in then you do. Right, Right. And I didn't uh did somebody acquire morning brew or not yet? Oh somebody did but I don't remember who. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. See so what you're talking about is like things that are happening all the time. Like hubs I think hubspot acquired a couple of big community, the hustle.

Yes. Yes. They acquired from a daily reader of the hustle. I love that. Yeah, it's good content. Most people are acquiring it. Even Wall Street Journal acquired by amazon that makes sense. Very few people starting it internally. I'm almost wondered like it seems like it would make sense. Are owned media seems to do so much. How can people don't build it themselves? Usually it's just a blog within their current site, but it's not positioned differently. It's just the company blog, even if it is good content in it. So it's something I'm no, I'm keeping my eyes peeled for to see if that's becoming a thing or not. Well, they don't do it because it's hard. It's nothing audience is hard. Yeah, it's very hard and you know, companies have deep pockets nowadays And um I still to this day don't know how much outreach paid for sales hacker, but let's just say it was under 10 million. That is a drop in the bucket for outreach company that's worth billions. Right? So the value that they get From buying sales hacker for sub 10 million is ridiculous. They get ridiculous R. O. I. On that. Just absolutely ridiculous. Ri and I think big companies with deep pockets would rather just buy communities and brands and rather than building it themselves, um you got the pockets that makes sense, It's the ones without the deep pockets. The Series B Series C companies that aren't quite ready for that yet, but are, you know, they got they got stuff going on, they got resources, but not enough to do to do that yet to just take outright acquire their there ideal buyer's favorite content source. Right? I think we all wish we could do that, but not all of us are hubspot walking around with tens of millions in extra cash. Not yet anyway. Right, so what else do you think about owned media to kind of wrap it up? Where's it been? Do you, do you see it becoming more important? I mean, imagine so, but I have to hear it from you? Uh, yes, in my view is still the most Important of the three without it, you know, like not not many people can do Elon musk, you know, all earned media. There's other other examples of that to like, let's talk about musicians for for for a second. Musicians don't have websites, they don't have blogs or many of them do not. They rely on offsite properties, Spotify, apple music, social media. Um, some of them build email us, but not a lot. But you know, what is the problem with that? The problem is that you don't control access to your audience, um, you don't have direct access to their attention. You are, you are allowing social algorithms to control your business model. And so you're you're seeing musicians now trying to, you know, do more clever things like get people to opt in through SmS and there's a product called Super phone that was created by Ryan Leslie, it's basically mass, you know, marketing SmS, imagine, you know, active campaign, but just for texting, that's basically what it is. So musicians are facing that problem because there's not really an owned component and unless you're a household name in music like Ed Sheeran or something like that, people are not necessarily checking for you every day on social or they're not going to Spotify and searching for you directly. And so, um that's an example of how it can be really challenging environment that is, that is not owned media first, because it's just all about Brandon and off site and, and so I couldn't see a normal tech company trying to come up that way. You have to do owned other like that's it, you can't really succeed otherwise. And so I I was still...

...saying for the purpose of most industries out there owned is key will always be key having control over your assets is key having control over your revenue model is key growing your own traffic, having control over your own content. That's what it's about, man. I can't see that ever losing importance. Funny as I think about Spotify and apple music as essentially it's owned because you still have full control over what the content is without paying for it. Right? So you're not paying for, it's not somebody else writing it, which has earned media, it's it's owned, but there's some, there's someone in between you and your audience. It's not quite the same as a text message relationship where you can support the numbers over to a different aspect, you still list, right? So there's different levels of owned that is potentially you kind of want to diversify across them because you probably can't start off with just you can't start off with just a text message list, right? There's no one, no one's gonna find you. So you gotta work them down to the a different level of owned. The reason why I call platforms like Spotify earned and not owned is because you cannot you do not know who these people are in any way. You cannot re market to them. There's no pixel you can put on the Spotify or Apple, like there's no way to access your audience at all. We have no information about them whatsoever. Everybody who subscribes to your channel on or your profile on Spotify or Apple music, you have no way of accessing these people. And so that is why I would I would still categorize that as as earned. Is there anything else that I missed about the three that we should add to the end of the show here between paid owned and earned in B2B marketing. Like what's the future of these? What should B two B marketers be thinking of, man? I I mean, I think there's such a good, good convo you know, we had on so many good points and good angles in terms of closing it out, there's so much complexity in this because you have to you have to choose your mix of this based on like how expensive is your product, What is the type of customer you're going after? How competitive is the market that you're that you're in because sometimes when everyone else is digging, you can zag all right. Uh maybe chris walker is an example of that. Every other agency in the world just, you know, does uh you know, S C O P P C tries to get customers through like other means, but he decided to go all in on organic linked, in which not many have done and it worked. So maybe maybe that's closing it out. Just try, try and try and, you know, find pockets where you can win and double down there. It's usually diversified game, but it's usually for each company, your first big channel is going to be a big, I don't know, a big dramatic one for you in some way. Maybe you have an unfair advantage because of some weird reason paid works really well for you or organic owned works really well for you or earned. There's something about what you're doing that it earns more attention more easily. I love that there's so many ways to win. Yet these things are always changing all the time and it's interesting to watch as a, the future unfolds as far as how paid earned and owned work separately and together, I got to know, thank you so much for joining me on GDP growth again. Where can people connect with you these days? Yeah. Thanks dan. Just search me katana denied you'll, you'll find me everywhere. So that's it. Fantastic again. Thanks for joining me on GDP growth. Thanks dan, appreciate it for the longest time. I was asking people to leave a review of GDP growth in apple podcasts, but I realized that was kind of stupid because leaving a review is way harder than just leaving a simple rating. So I'm changing my tune...

...a bit instead of asking you to leave a review, I'm just gonna ask you to go to BBB growth in apple podcasts, scroll down until you see the ratings and reviews section and just tap the number of stars you want to give us no review necessary. Super easy and I promise it will help us out a ton. If you want a copy of my book, content based networking, just shoot me a text after you leave the rating and I'll send them your way. Text me at 4074 and I know 33 to 8. Thank you. Right.

In-Stream Audio Search

NEW

Search across all episodes within this podcast

Episodes (1737)