Transitioning From Paid to Earned/Owned Media w/Gaetano DiNardi

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

In this episode, Dan Sanchez talks with Gaetano DiNardi who is the former Head of Growth and Demand Gen at Nextiva about the status and future of paid, owned, and earned media for B2B marketing teams.

The last ten years have great for paid media, but is it still in its heyday? Are we transitioning to something else or moving away from paid media all together. Find out as Gaetano and Dan wrestle with some hard questions.

Yeah, welcome back to BTB growth. I'm danSanchez with sweet fish media and I'm here with Gitano de Nardi who wasformerly the head of growth and demand gen and next Eva gitano, welcome backto the show. What's up dan? It's always a pleasure talking with you so thanksfor having me. Absolutely. I've been excited to talk to you about this toget your take on the evolution of paid owned and earned media in B2B marketingspecifically paid personally I've been seeing some trends of paid mediabecoming a lot harder over the last year, year and a half. I know over thelast five years it's becoming increasingly more saturated on yourpaid advertising, your PPC side with facebook google ads of course has beenhard for a while. I almost look at like the last decade of PPC in general justbeing fantastic and now I'm starting to see a slowdown. So I'm doing a serieson paid owned and earned to try to figure out what the balance of thesethings looks like for me to be growth as well as owned media specifically.But before we jump into owned, I'd love to hear thoughts on paid media for Btwo B marketing in general. Has it had its heyday, is it starting to see adecrease or is it just changing and how it's going, what do you think? Yeah,great way to tee that up dan. So in terms of, you know, has paid media hadits heyday or is it just changing uh it's definitely changing for sure andthe, some of the things that I see is that saturation and competition isreally hurting paid media just like it's hurting every other channel, likea Ceo youtube, social email, everything. The Way B two B companies are runningpaid media is transforming. So what I see is that for example, unless you aresalesforce or a Tier one premier level brand, you will not succeed by runninggeneric landing pages, a book download campaigns on then very generic orgeneralized copy in your ads, you just won't win and brand is more crucialtoday Then it's ever been before. It sounds cliche when you hear yeah, brandbrand brand, but really now in 2021 as we're heading into 2022, it is the mostimportant factor aside from product quality and um, I know we're going totalk about earned reviews fall into that as well. But as you said, the lastdecade has been pretty, pretty golden, been like a golden decade. Up until nowthings are slowing down. But you used to be able to be successful by justfocusing on bottom of final plays. It was the case that if you were a companythat was only found through google, you could be successful and if you onlyfocused on bottom of funnel plays like PPC affiliates and buying leads fromsites like tech radar, you can really brute force your way through withoutbound sales and ads, but today you can't get away with it anymore. And Ithink maybe that's how we can kick off the episode. So the old run an ad, geta lead. It's just not working anymore. Not without a lot of work or thought alot of brand to support it. So what is currently working in PPC, are yourunning like a mix of different types of content through, through ads just tokind of balance it out? Are you stair stepping it? So someone sees this typeof ad interacts with it then get served this type of ad or do you just kindahave like a bunch of things running in the hopper? What is it, what is your adset look like these days? Here's the dirty little secret that a lot ofmarkers don't want to admit or just won't tell you. And that is in the, inmy time of doing this, I have never...

...seen a google ads um configurationwhere a company can definitively say that we are profitable from our ads. And the problem is that you have growthat all costs mindset and you know, I've, I've personally audited SAAS companiesgoogle ads profiles And I've seen examples where companies are paying,you know, $50,000 a month to close maybe 10 paying customers With anaverage contract value of like $2500 and so the math is quite horrifying inmany of these cases and there are examples lately that have come outWhere brands and companies have launched experiments where they shutoff all their PPC where they've shut off like 90% of their ads and nothinghas changed. And I, I audited a saAS companies google ads account last yearso they went public and they increased their spin by like they doubled theirspin And they realized that they weren't getting any any return afterdoubling their spin. And then I went in there and I cut spending by like 70%because I found a ton of inefficiencies We can get into the inefficiencies in asecond. But long story short is that I cut the spending by 70% and absolutelyzero impact on pipeline or revenue after doing that. And so what is thepoint of all this? When you talk about the current state of PPC is waste,there's a tremendous level of waste. And um, you know, one reason why isbecause a lot of companies don't care cost per clicks are rising at anincredible rate in some industries. Uh, the one that I was most recently in,you CASS We're talking about $80 a click and above just for the click. Andthen when you factor in that there's affiliates um that are extortingcompanies for a middle man payment. The cost of acquisition is through the roofAnd when you have inexpensive products. But yeah, you have to pay $80 a clickbecause it's so saturated and so competitive and there's so much moneybeing poured into ads. Companies don't care. Uh, you know, Zoom is just goingto brute force you out, ring central is going to brute force you out. How doyou keep up with that? If you don't have, if you don't have deep pockets,that is the challenge right now. So what are you doing to combat that? Yousay you're still keeping it around, you're saying you're cutting thingsback from like 70% in some cases, but you're still keeping around a littlenugget there, you still got 30% in the game. So what are you doing with thatextra? Yeah. So here's like, what I think is the transformation that'shappening now is, and thankfully there's voices like chris walker andmany others, hopefully myself is contributing to some of the changeshappening. But companies are realizing that you do have to figure out how toget out of the bottom of funnel hamster wheel, get out of the PPC S EOaffiliate Who's ready to buy in the next month marketing and go way upfunnel and figure out how do you market to the 90% of people who are not readyto buy today or or soon because if you catch them higher in the funnel, theneverything is just easier because when you're scrapping at the bottom, it'soften too late. And so I personally have not cracked that code and I will,I will just flat out say every company I've been at I've been pressured intouh you know subscribing to this bottom of funnel, you know marketing machine.So every company have been at, they wanted me to really focused just onbottom of funnel. No companies have...

...ever said to me. Yeah let's think aboutdemand gen in a way that goes more top of funnel or is more brand oriented oris more higher final activity. It's always every single company I've been,we need leads, we need growth, we need, you know dollars and dollars out. Weneed P. P. C. S. C. O. Affiliates. And I, me personally I have never had theopportunity to market in a way that's different from that and that saddens me.But that's that's what companies want. And the only chance I've ever had itdoing something you know, creative or fun or different has been sales hackerbecause when I was marketing there the product was not sas it was the audience.So we were selling attention. People. I mean it kind of comes with the title,demand gen. I mean with chris walker and his crew, he's kind of like theexception but almost everybody ever, everybody else ever met on the demandinside is almost always bottom of the funnel performance marketing type stuffat least with all the customers I'm meeting with that sweet fish if there'sa demand gen person in the, in the zoom room. I'm like yeah that person'srunning on PPC ads and doing bottom of the funnel stuff. Yes. And you know,the bottom of the funnel is super important. Like don't get me wrong, butyou know like the industry I was I was in most recently which is you cast andVoIP there is huge demand bottom of final demand for that, but that's onlybecause the pandemic drove it to insane levels that it has never seen before.So there are certain industries that the pandemic has driven like crazyamount of demand for without marketers doing anything, It just happenedbecause of circumstances. So marketers got lucky. Yeah, the market changed,right? You don't have any control over that. Sometimes, sometimes it's good,sometimes it's great. Sometimes it's great. Sometimes it's sometimes themarkets dying, you're like, no, you're pivoting. Yeah, exactly. But it's, youknow, you want to find marketers who have created demand without the help ofa pandemic. Who are those marketers and where are they? Uh those are the kindsof marketers you want you want to find. And so when I think about hiring, likethat's why I look for I look for like marketers who have been like scrappyunderdog companies that have fought back against giants. Like I've done inevery role I've ever had in my career. Yeah. Now that I think of it I've beenan underdog scrappy, you know, fighting against the big guys that every singlerole I've ever had, you're like, wouldn't it be nice to work for the bigguy with the massive budgets, of course, maybe you're like your arms are tiedbehind your back, if you're working for one of those companies, I've neverworked for one of those companies, so I only know what it's like to work with alimited budget, trying to be creative, right? Yeah, Next evil was the biggestcompany I've ever worked for. Um in my time there, the company went from 70million to over 200 million and there are, But I truly think my sweet spot islike getting a company from like 10 million to like 50-60, 70 million andthen maybe it gets too big for me at that point, but like that pipe drive,that was the case and it was really fun at that stage. But you know, when I,when I think about just S SEO PPC in general, like search, it is reallymoving away from exact match long, long tail, exact match stuff is like kind ofout of the picture now, like you really do just need to focus on keywordbuckets, keyword themes and then, you know, the google machine has gottenreally smart, so if you, for example, if you're setting up had ad campaignsthat are targeting competitors in PPC, it may be good enough, let's say yourpipe drive today, it may be good enough to have an ad group that is calledhubspot, you're going to target hubspot and you can just set phrase matchhubspot alternatives, hubspot competitors and hubspot pricing maybeeven hubspot, some other things like that. So find like a couple of bucketsand then just let it rip. And then what...

...you want to do is monitor the negativesearch term report list because you want to monitor the search term reportand then narrow it down with your negative or exclusion list and thatwhen you see and then you feed all the insights that you're getting from paidinto S. C. O. That that is that is how you scale. But you know the trouble isthat, you know, hubspot is an insane brand. So unless you have a brand thatcan be somewhat you know, comparable to that and fight back like you can't be,you can't be an unknown. That's why monday dot com is so powerful becausetheir brute forcing their way through. And so that that's what you're upagainst in PPC. And I think it's some of the hardest marketing to do todaybecause you need add keywords, uh copy, landing pages, user experienceconversion tracking, spend all these things to be in sync and um you have toknow in keyword intent and the customer types and customer segments and if youdon't have all those things uh perfectly working in Harmony. I thinkyou're you're going to be uh in a world of trouble. I love some of the nuggets.You just dropped it got pretty granular, but I'm like, I'm, I used to be, Idon't know, I feel like I really got my start as a marketer through googleadwords. Something about the simplicity of just having to write copy with a few,only a few words at a time and split testing. It was, it was a great, greatplace to start my career. But from what you're saying, I'm like, wow Edwardshas changed a lot. I remember like it was all about how granular you can makeit right. The more specific you can make those campaigns the better theyperformed. But, and I never turned on their automated features because thatwas just, well they just weren't great at that. Facebook was always muchbetter at the automated features like let facebook figure out who to target.It's not like they would let you target specific specific people anyway, butthey were always pretty good at figuring it automatically. You'resaying that google's google's kind of caught up, you can let it let themautomated match the right adds to the right groups and keywords now, as longas you're keeping a good watch on the negative keyword list. Yeah. In manyways. Yes. Yeah. There's two, I think, I think there's two super importantthings you got to do is monitor the search term support and then reallytighten up as much as you can with the exclusion list and then you really gotto pay attention to the quality scores because in a lot of scenarios, andespecially in B b um, some of the highest intent search terms are, theycan be quite long tail and quite obscure. And if you have low qualityand maybe just take a step back if it's long tail and obscure, that meansthere's not a lot of volume and if you want to have those impressions andclicks, you have to have a high quality score in order for google to say, yeah,I think that this ad from this company is most relevant for when this getssearched, and if you have a low quality score, you will be ineligible forimpressions and you won't get any clicks. And so that, you know, that'sbecoming another problem too, that I've seen is like, um, you know, companiesare going to say like, hey, we need to spend, spend, spend, spend, spend, andthen you look at your add account and you'll be like, damn, we're just notgetting the clicks, what is it, low quality scores and, and that issomething to, to really, I think pay a lot of attention to. And that is acombination of landing page experience, ad copy relevant, um, site links, side,extensions, mobile experience, all that ship. Hey, everybody Logan with sweetfish here. If you've been listening to the show for a while, you know, we'rebig proponents of putting out original organic content on linked in. But onething that's always been a struggle for a team like ours is to easily track thereach of that linked in content. That's why I was really excited when I heardabout Shield the other day from a connection on you guessed it linked insince our team started using Shield, I've loved how it's led us easily trackand analyze the performance of our linkedin content without having tomanually log it ourselves. It automatically creates reports andgenerate some dashboards that are incredibly useful to see things likewhat contents been performing the best...

...and what days of the week are wegetting the most engagement and our average views per post. I highlysuggest you guys check out this tool. If you're putting out content on linkedin and if you're not, you should be, It's been a game changer for us. If yougo to shield app dot Ai and check out the 10 day free trial, you can even useour promo code B two B growth to get a 25% discount again. That's shield appdot Ai. And that promo code is b the number to be growth. All one word. Allright, let's get back to the show. Yeah, it's a lot more. It's a lot more thanjust the ads. It's the whole it's the whole funnel you really get optimizedin order to make those ads worth it, What do you think about blending paidand owned essentially taking your own media and then amplifying it with paid?Do you think that's a good where people should be spending more of their paiddollars? And if so like what percent? Oh that's yeah, that's a good one. Imean, yes, here's here's the thing that a lot of people just have to acceptright now. And that is the way social algorithms work and the way that socialalgorithms work is that organic reach is extremely limited with the exceptionof linkedin and Tiktok. So you're gonna get nowhere on facebook twitterinstagram and you're certainly gonna get nowhere without pain amplification.And I hope that, you know, unless you're doing like, unless you'reselling toothbrushes or you know, t shirts, like you're not going to getlike, you know, sales doing instagram ads for B two B. I mean you might, butit's just not likely, especially for expensive products. But the deal islike, if you think of, what do people like me do late at night? You know, I'ma decision maker. I'm a technology by R and B two B. Marketing, what am I doingat nine o'clock at night? Well, um I don't watch the news. So what do I do Ispend time on social media sites, like, like instagram and I read like techblogs and stuff, right? So companies like clear bit, have found ways toadvertise to people like me late night and why am I mentioning clear but nowbecause their ads are memorable And so they are an example of marketing to the90% of people who are not thinking about them and who do not want to buy aclear bit. Right now. There the day will come where I will need some kindof data enrichment solution and I'm probably going to go to clear bitbecause I'm talking about them now and I remember them and uh, it's, it's kindof the same thing I wrote about in lengthen the other day that had a hugereaction, which is the company in Miami that targeted me for three months oninstagram before I even clicked. And you know, you can say that, okay,optimizing for the impression is still good even without getting the clickbecause you're, you know, subconsciously penetrating someone'smind. Uh, such as clear bit. Like when I see their video ads, I don't everclick, I just watched them. Right. So then how do you measure adds engagement?How much time was spent, video watch through that matters? Is your messagegetting through that matters. So anyway, back to the thing about the companythat targeted me for three months before I clicked. I finally clickedafter three months and I didn't buy anything. But now I know the companyexists, I may go directly to their website later on whenever I need a cooldate idea to do in Miami. They were advertising candlelit rooftop dinnerswith live orchestra. It's pretty cool. But that's the difference in DDB adstoday is that you cannot treat social like PPC and you certainly can'tmeasure it that way. And executives have to change their mindset when itcomes to this stuff. And the final point is that companies give up toosoon. They run ads for like two weeks. They don't see quote unquote leads andthey're like ship they, this ain't...

...working, let's let's, you know, Canon.But the reality is like you, there is so much noise, you need a lot ofimpressions before somebody decides to click now and so you need patience. Uh,and you need to use a lot of different creative techniques and not use justgeneric, uh, you know, static display ads, you gotta switch it up and usedifferent stuff and that's where I think it's up. What I'm hearing. Ittakes quite a variety of different content and you can't be dependent onit, converting and you giving, getting the data like in your facebook ad set.So your, your cost per acquisition according to facebook or google isgoing to be through the roof. But it might not be as bad as you thinkbecause if you ask your customers, like if you that instagram ad you saw, ifthey ask you, how did you hear about us? You tell him I saw it on an instagramad of course you're a marketer. So you know the difference between what you'reseeing and I think most people would now, if you just ask your customers,they're probably going to remember seeing the add quite a bit, especiallyif you dive into a few depending on how many you have coming through all thetime into their journey and how, how it went from. Hey, first becoming problemaware like when did it first become an issue or maybe it wasn't an issue andyou just start, you just discovered us, tell me the story those ads are goingto come up and that should be noted, right? Not that there's like a perfectmathematical way of keeping track of it all, but you'll hear about it like theproblem is it takes a lot longer for that to trickle down. Right? Yes. Ithink there's two things that come to mind based on what you said to me. Oneis that if you did add, how did you hear about us field in your sign upform, you would get an incredible amount of uh, qualitative data.Companies are reluctant to do this because they are afraid of doing thework that is required to analyze. Freeform tax responses. It's really notthat hard though, right? It's not, but companies don't want to, you know,break the machine. Right? Like think about it. The forums are locked in toall across the web site. There can be hundreds of submissions a day, all thatinformation is perfectly sync and flowing into a salesforce accountexactly the way they need it, it's a big disruption to add an extra fieldand start looking at all that information. Um So companies arereluctant to do that, but if they did, I'm sure that they would be pleasantlysurprised by what they saw. Um It would be some phenomenal marketing insights,but companies just don't do it because of the, you know, pain of labor if theywant to call it that and then you know the creative men, the Creative uh It'san afterthought nowadays I see companies spending so much time fussingover the targeting criteria, the keywords, the ad groups, even the copy.But then when it gets down to like the landing page or the display creative,it's just like yeah, let's just pull something off the shelf. Uh huh. Uh Andthat's why the companies who are winning are the companies who don't dothat. I can tell that, you know monday dot com is not just pulling somethingoff the shelf. They are making commercials, like their videos arelegit commercials and that's the difference. Yeah, none of that. UhStock b roll over voiceover, right? Like everyone can kind of see throughthat one thing. Gosh, I did a lot of PPC over the last seven years and itwas magical. But now it's becoming so much harder to do. So I'm kind ofcurious to see like before, like would dominate a budget now. Where do youthink PPC sits like if you have to allocate dollars including likestaffing dollars, where do you see it fitting between like the three majorsilos of like paper click owned media, earned media? How do you, how do youallocate these these days?...

You know, I always, I always put humanresources and investing in people at the top of the priority chain for me,you know, I'm from, I'm from the school of thought of let's let's scaleappropriately and let's not do it the other way around. So I like it. I likeputting people at the top and then if I had to break out a spend mix, you know,it's a, it's a really tough question because like you have to reallyconsider what kind of product is it, how expensive, how much pressure isthere to grow? Like all those all those things are are factors and to be quite,you know, just blunt with you. I've never had a situation where uh anexecutive said to me, what is your ideal spend mix? It's always been,here's what the spend mix is, go make it work. So I've never had that freedomactually to make those decisions and choices. So I don't know if I can speakto that one. Just given that I've never actually Had the opportunity to say,you know, Hey here's $10 million, divided up, how you see fit. I've neverhad the opportunity to do that before. And so I don't know if I had that muchmoney to play with over like a certain period of time, my personal gutreaction is, I already know I would put like the majority of that to people andtry not to waste on, you know, money on ads, but I've never personally had anopportunity before to make those choices some day it's coming, where doyou sit on earned media worth it not worth it. It's, it's important man,earned media is important. I mean there's, there's two things that thathit you right away when I, when I think about earned media, one is reviews thatis a form of earned media. Um, and they are arguably the biggest offsite factorwhen it comes to influencing buying decisions. So reviews are our key and Ithink any company needs to have like a lot of focus on reputation managementand reviews that is absolutely of utmost importance. And then, you know,earned media can also be a function of like top of funnel pr and brand you canget, you know, you know, beyond like, hey, we raised money will go rightabout us. There are other ways to get companies to write about you and it canbe, you know, cause marketing standing up for some kind of companies don'tlike doing this, but picking a side of controversial issues standing up forsomething, What's the hill, you're prepared to die on as they say, what'syour brand's character diamond look like, you know, all that stuff cangenerate earned media for you. And it's important because not not only do youget like top of funnel visibility and all this stuff, but you get back linksfrom very, very powerful and strong domains which fuel your own domainauthority and then that can fuel your SEO campaigns that can help youtremendously when it comes to fighting back against giant legacy competitordomains, fighting back in terms of being able to rank organically fortough keywords. So this whole thing kind of is interconnected, you know,reviews, reputation, product pr how can you extract data out of your productand customers to like create some kind of compelling story and get people towrite about it all that plays together and it feeds back. So I think you thinkit's going in the future, do you think it's going more earned less earned? Ohyou're gonna need more, you're gonna need more than ever before because umreputation and brand is only getting more important products and categoriesin SAs or like convergent and so there's going to be less and lessopportunity for people to win based on like some kind of product advantagebecause there really won't be much...

...since everything is being copied andconvergent. So the more earned media, you you can get, the better off you'regonna be because you're going to need that as a form of differentiation andthat's just what it comes down to interesting. So no, uh, there'scertainly people that are like all earned media never paid. Maybe a littlebit of owned. I mean you think of Tesla, it's kind of like all earned mediaright on one extreme and it's like Elon's marketing playbook is earned.He's kind of a master at it. And then you have like chris, I talked to chriswalker a few weeks ago and he was like, no, I do nothing for earned. I just doso good on the own that it earns me. That gives me free here in the media.I'm like, okay, that's, that's an interesting play. He's essentiallydoing zero to get earned other than just focusing on owned And paid. Yeah,that was the sale cycle strategy. It was zero paid and zero earned.Everything was so good with owned that created natural, zero effort requiredearned partners would promote us naturally. We would host kick asconferences and big sites would promote us and write about us and give us backlinks and say how awesome we are, social would have nonstop chatter andrambling about how Kick ask our events are both offline and online. Thecontent was so good. It was a community driven content effort where I would hitup top VPs from all these SAAS companies and have them contribute tothe block and then that created this sort of organic flywheel effect thatdid generate tons of free earned media that we didn't have to pay any moneyfor it all. And that's ultimately why outreach bought sales hacker. Um, andI'm really proud to have been part of that movement and I've been on thatside of the equation where you're doing owned so well that everything elsefalls into place and that was cool to see. So its transition into like ownedas our last part of the triangle here between the three. Uh, whichinteresting to me about sales hacker is that sales hacker is essentially anowned media property without a large product or service behind it. I mean, Iknow it makes money somehow. I actually don't know what it's business model is,but I think it's primary concern was being a publication. Is that right?Yeah. The way it makes money is from sponsorships, which is traditionalpublication revenue. What would you think about? I hardly ever see peopledo this. But once in a while, if a brand like a SAS brand or a servicebrand, like sweet fish media started its own media property, that's separatefrom the court brand. Do you think that would be a smart play or is that toomuch like to try to be a media company and a product or service is asking toomuch. Mm that's really, really interesting on them. Uh, you know, Ithink if you have the resources to pull it off, it could potentially worktrying to think of an example of that. I can't think of one of the off the topof my head. I know there are examples out there of companies that can takeyou to the recorded future has the record the media. So that's one thatwas on chris walker's show and I talked to him about that too. There's also ummaybe when you've run into is a PPC hero which is the it's mainlypositioned as this blog but it's actually become quite large more than ablog in sc Oh it's it's a big conference now too. But that's run fromuh an ad agency I think called the Hennepin remember but that's also itsseparate from their core brand and you don't even know henna pins behind ituntil later. If you start digging in then you do. Right, Right. And I didn'tuh did somebody acquire morning brew or not yet? Oh somebody did but I don'tremember who. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. See so what you're talking about is likethings that are happening all the time. Like hubs I think hubspot acquired acouple of big community, the hustle.

Yes. Yes. They acquired from a dailyreader of the hustle. I love that. Yeah, it's good content. Most people areacquiring it. Even Wall Street Journal acquired by amazon that makes sense.Very few people starting it internally. I'm almost wondered like it seems likeit would make sense. Are owned media seems to do so much. How can peopledon't build it themselves? Usually it's just a blog within their current site,but it's not positioned differently. It's just the company blog, even if itis good content in it. So it's something I'm no, I'm keeping my eyespeeled for to see if that's becoming a thing or not. Well, they don't do itbecause it's hard. It's nothing audience is hard. Yeah, it's very hardand you know, companies have deep pockets nowadays And um I still to thisday don't know how much outreach paid for sales hacker, but let's just say itwas under 10 million. That is a drop in the bucket for outreach company that'sworth billions. Right? So the value that they get From buying sales hackerfor sub 10 million is ridiculous. They get ridiculous R. O. I. On that. Justabsolutely ridiculous. Ri and I think big companies with deep pockets wouldrather just buy communities and brands and rather than building it themselves,um you got the pockets that makes sense, It's the ones without the deep pockets.The Series B Series C companies that aren't quite ready for that yet, butare, you know, they got they got stuff going on, they got resources, but notenough to do to do that yet to just take outright acquire their there idealbuyer's favorite content source. Right? I think we all wish we could do that,but not all of us are hubspot walking around with tens of millions in extracash. Not yet anyway. Right, so what else do you think about owned media tokind of wrap it up? Where's it been? Do you, do you see it becoming moreimportant? I mean, imagine so, but I have to hear it from you? Uh, yes, inmy view is still the most Important of the three without it, you know, likenot not many people can do Elon musk, you know, all earned media. There'sother other examples of that to like, let's talk about musicians for for fora second. Musicians don't have websites, they don't have blogs or many of themdo not. They rely on offsite properties, Spotify, apple music, social media. Um,some of them build email us, but not a lot. But you know, what is the problemwith that? The problem is that you don't control access to your audience,um, you don't have direct access to their attention. You are, you areallowing social algorithms to control your business model. And so you'reyou're seeing musicians now trying to, you know, do more clever things likeget people to opt in through SmS and there's a product called Super phonethat was created by Ryan Leslie, it's basically mass, you know, marketing SmS,imagine, you know, active campaign, but just for texting, that's basically whatit is. So musicians are facing that problem because there's not really anowned component and unless you're a household name in music like Ed Sheeranor something like that, people are not necessarily checking for you every dayon social or they're not going to Spotify and searching for you directly.And so, um that's an example of how it can be really challenging environmentthat is, that is not owned media first, because it's just all about Brandon andoff site and, and so I couldn't see a normal tech company trying to come upthat way. You have to do owned other like that's it, you can't reallysucceed otherwise. And so I I was still...

...saying for the purpose of mostindustries out there owned is key will always be key having control over yourassets is key having control over your revenue model is key growing your owntraffic, having control over your own content. That's what it's about, man. Ican't see that ever losing importance. Funny as I think about Spotify andapple music as essentially it's owned because you still have full controlover what the content is without paying for it. Right? So you're not paying for,it's not somebody else writing it, which has earned media, it's it's owned,but there's some, there's someone in between you and your audience. It's notquite the same as a text message relationship where you can support thenumbers over to a different aspect, you still list, right? So there's differentlevels of owned that is potentially you kind of want to diversify across thembecause you probably can't start off with just you can't start off with justa text message list, right? There's no one, no one's gonna find you. So yougotta work them down to the a different level of owned. The reason why I callplatforms like Spotify earned and not owned is because you cannot you do notknow who these people are in any way. You cannot re market to them. There'sno pixel you can put on the Spotify or Apple, like there's no way to accessyour audience at all. We have no information about them whatsoever.Everybody who subscribes to your channel on or your profile on Spotifyor Apple music, you have no way of accessing these people. And so that iswhy I would I would still categorize that as as earned. Is there anything else that I missedabout the three that we should add to the end of the show here between paidowned and earned in B2B marketing. Like what's the future of these? What shouldB two B marketers be thinking of, man? I I mean, I think there's such a good,good convo you know, we had on so many good points and good angles in terms ofclosing it out, there's so much complexity in this because you have toyou have to choose your mix of this based on like how expensive is yourproduct, What is the type of customer you're going after? How competitive isthe market that you're that you're in because sometimes when everyone else isdigging, you can zag all right. Uh maybe chris walker is an example ofthat. Every other agency in the world just, you know, does uh you know, S C OP P C tries to get customers through like other means, but he decided to goall in on organic linked, in which not many have done and it worked. So maybemaybe that's closing it out. Just try, try and try and, you know, find pocketswhere you can win and double down there. It's usually diversified game, but it'susually for each company, your first big channel is going to be a big, Idon't know, a big dramatic one for you in some way. Maybe you have an unfairadvantage because of some weird reason paid works really well for you ororganic owned works really well for you or earned. There's something about whatyou're doing that it earns more attention more easily. I love thatthere's so many ways to win. Yet these things are always changing all the timeand it's interesting to watch as a, the future unfolds as far as how paidearned and owned work separately and together, I got to know, thank you somuch for joining me on GDP growth again. Where can people connect with you thesedays? Yeah. Thanks dan. Just search me katana denied you'll, you'll find meeverywhere. So that's it. Fantastic again. Thanks for joining me on GDPgrowth. Thanks dan, appreciate it for the longest time. I was asking peopleto leave a review of GDP growth in apple podcasts, but I realized that waskind of stupid because leaving a review is way harder than just leaving asimple rating. So I'm changing my tune...

...a bit instead of asking you to leave areview, I'm just gonna ask you to go to BBB growth in apple podcasts, scrolldown until you see the ratings and reviews section and just tap the numberof stars you want to give us no review necessary. Super easy and I promise itwill help us out a ton. If you want a copy of my book, content basednetworking, just shoot me a text after you leave the rating and I'll send themyour way. Text me at 4074 and I know 33 to 8. Thank you. Right.

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