B2B Growth: Your Daily B2B Marketing Podcast
B2B Growth: Your Daily B2B Marketing Podcast

Episode 1694 · 4 months ago

The Perils of Self-Centered Marketing, with Scott Miller

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

In this episode, Benji talks to Scott Miller, Senior Advisor at Franklin Covey.

What's the largest obstacle that stands in the way of massive success for us as marketers? Scott says it's misplaced focus. Far too often we hone in on what we love, instead of what our customers need. Rise above the marketing mess and find your customer-centric message!

Conversations from the front lines and marketing. This is be tob growth. This is be tob growth coming to you from just outside Austin, Texas. I'm your host, Benjie Block, and joining me from Nashville, Tennessee director of audience growth here at sweet fish, Dan Sanchez, and from Louisville, Kentucky, our creative content lead, Emily Brady. Welcoming to be to be growth. Guys. Thanks, Benjie. Good to be here. So we are in now the middle of week two of this new round table we've been doing. I've been loving this. I think it's so fun to get all three of us together. We have unique perspectives on marketing and just the things that we're seeing and getting to bring that here and and kind of talk about it in real time as we see stuff. I think it is just important and one of my favorite things that happens within podcasting. I think of all the podcast I listen to, that sort of real time conversation is so important and what keeps me coming back. So today I'm going to bring something that I have been thinking about, and I'll just say this right from the top, that this is a recurring theme or head scratcher or issue that I come back to because I am inconsistent, or around the topics that I post about on Linkedin, or even just my social strategy in general. It's like what do I actually want to niche down into? What do I want to call myself back to topic wise, so that the people that are coming back to my content know sort of what to expect right? And I know, Emily, you've set us up at sweet fish with tools and resources, and yet still, even with some guard rails, I find myself in this place of just being like, man, what are like the pillars of my content? Let's start here. Have you guys struggled with this, or are you just you've just always been great at knowing the content that you wanted to niche down into? And we'm gonna throw it to you first, because you're kind of smiling over there. Yeah, no, I think it's funny because, like Dan, I feel like Dan's really good at this. Dan is like Yoda and I'm like Anakin, like he taught me what I know about linking. So I think it's great role in this conversation. But this is actually something that I struggle with. To Benjie, it's kind of like a do as I say, not as I do, situation where I can coach our vangelists through how to do that. But for me personally, I get so excited about so many ideas that I end up posting a ton of different stuff on Linkedin, and that's my downfall. Is Not a lack of ideas, but too many. So I think whether you're on the end of I don't have enough to deat ideas or have way too many ideas, like it's helpful to niche down and meet in the middle. I do know. I know the things that I'm not going to talk about because I know what I don't know about. Now that's a helpful thing to sport with, to have some parameters there.

And I know what I like talking about, which I love talking about Linkedin. I love talking about creating content, tick tock, but those are still very, very broad. So a lot of my approach to Linkedin really is just to talk about things that I'm learning about with in those things, content, marketing, Linkedin, Tick Tock and so and a lot of it is just the nuances of those and what the daytoday looks like in creating content or creating videos, and I think my biggest resource for creating content is just having conversations with people like this in person, but also on Linkedin. I spend a lot of time on the platform engaging with people, so that I can engage with people, but also so that I can take some content from that. So that's my whole approach. Yeah, to creating content for Linkedin. Dan, how's this kind of developed for you over time? One thing I've realized is that it's really hard to figure out of yourself. I mean emily was saying, Oh, Dan taught me. Well, Dan's also the one struggling with finding it for himself. Right. It's just really hard to look at it because you have the curse of knowledge. You know too much about your stuff, your stories, you're what you know what you don't know your own interest. It's just like a chaos a room full of stuff and you're like, which thing in this room should I focus on? Should I group these things together in this room? You know, if there's lots of different things going on in a room, to make it like give it a picture, you like, which three things should I pull out of this chaos room? You know, what I found is that it's usually pretty obvious to someone else. Who isn't you? Like when I sit down with others and they're talking to me about all their interests and what they've done and all that kind of stuff? The Few Times that I've done this, I'm like it's usually really obvious, or at least it's it to me. I'm like, Oh, like, why don't you just do this? That's that makes sense. There's a market for that. It looks like you're passionate about that. Yes, you're probably gonna have to say no to these two other things, but it seems like there's a clear winner here, so what's stopping you? And they're like, but really, and then they come up with fifty other reasons why that's not the thing. But to someone on the outside, you're like that's the thing. I had someone sit down. James Carberry, the the founder is sweet fish, sat down with me and he told me he's like, Dan, I know you're interested in x and wine. You're you wanted to write a book about this, but I really feel like audience growth should be your thing. I fought it for like six months and then I eventually just gave into it and now that's been the topic that I've been pursuing more but even staying focused with it on Linkedin as a challenge and I still post about other stuff. So I'm on my journey. I've got a little bit of light, but it's still hasn't become super clear as far as like how to how to fully make it my thing. That's a really good I totally agree. It's so much harder to do that for yourself and find what your topics are than it is to do it for other people. Like when I on board of Angelists for our program we just have a conversation about the things they're knowledgeable about, the things they love, the things they're curious about, and it almost feels like it's easy to mind that way and to find things like they might not think so and then I'll say, Oh, I've...

...heard you talk a lot about this. What have you considered talking about this? And they're like Whoa, no, I have it and it seems so obvious to people on the outside. So sometimes you just need just to talk back and forth with someone to figure that out, or you need someone like James to approach you and say you should talk about this. So yeah, that helps. So one way is exactly that emily right. The conversations that you had is you're kind of onboarding are linkedin evangelists and writing that down so that we have something to reference back to. I wonder, like as you because to me it's not don't post about things you're passionate about, it's like continue to do that, but then maybe also like let's have a strategy for these specific things that we always come back to. Write like the pillars that I know when I go to Dan's Linkedin he's going to have a pretty solid mix of audience growth type content and then other things are thrown in because he's obviously interested in marketing more broadly. He's running a podcast. There's going to be these other flavors that allow for some variety, which is always nice, like we we need that, but it's to me it's like, all right, what are those pillars that we want to keep coming back to, because once you have them really truly locked in, it does make it so much easier to know what are the posts that I should be creating, what are the questions people are asking within this niche? And I see people get there. They're not me. I interview them, they get there, they find their niche and they're just posting the same types of content all the time and people are I mean they keep coming back for more. It's funny because I find that those people get boring too. Yeah, like, like Justin Welsh, as someone that I really liked this content, but now it's so repetitive. Yet it tends to it seems to be freaking working. He like grows like more and more and faster. He's growing faster now because he's so consistent. Yet as someone who's been listening to him for a year and a half, I'm like, I feel like I've seen this post from you at least four times because I've been reading almost every post he's put out for like a year and a half. But other people need to hear it. So I'm like, well, okay, I kind of don't want to read a stuff as often now just because I'm like feel like I'm I get it, you know. But at the same time he's growing, so it's working for him and you know at least that you can go to his page if there's information. They for some of the talks about, which is nice. So that's a pro but I agree in that it does get repetitive. Sometimes. So it's nice when someone has a lane, but they also talk about other things. One thing I'm really interested for. Right now, we can't speak to the results that it'll produce, but emily, maybe you can talk to this to we're trying out this like video style interview someone else from sweet fish system, where, like then, we would have videos to post on Linkedin as content, and I'm excited for that because I feel like even doing these around tables, I'm like, Oh man, stuff comes up where I'm like, I'm not talking about this in any other room. So having someone asked me some questions will prompt answers out of me. It's the same thing as that...

...on boarding conversation, right, but it's just like a different way of doing it. Speak to that and maybe even what prompted that idea. Yeah, so we actually have to two people on our evangelist team. They had like daily meetings for like thirty minutes where they would just get on riverside and ask each other questions about the work that they're doing daily or about the things they're passionate about, and they just started doing this of their own initiative and I thought it was a brilliant because I started seeing more of their videos pop up on linkedin and so then I jumped on some micro videos with people. It's helpful because the people that are asking you questions maybe don't know anything about your role and it might it might help you think, because a lot of times we're two in the work to realize that we have something to say about it. So, like if I were to jump on a conversation with you, Benjie, I would be like, all right, tell me how you interview, tell me how you find guests to interview, because I don't work in that at all, and you're like, oh well, that's the basic functions of my job. or I might see the content that you have on Linkedin, what you've been posting, what you've been talking about, and I can ask you about that. And sometimes it's just it's helpful to verbally process those things. And we used to do a lot more, like I would send people prompts, just like in the slack channel. I would just send a prompt, but that's not as helpful as building off of a conversation in video. So that's been really good strategy in coming up with ideas, but also in producing more content and more video content specifically and if someone's not comfortable on video, they they can just take they can transcribe what they've said and make a post out of it, which also really helpful. Yeah, all right. So I want to start to wrap this up by just going what are like our next steps, because it seems like all of us are going in one way or another. We might know what to do, but let's talk about what we are going to do. So what comes to mind, guys, like what's your what's your action item as we leave this conversation? Mine is to get interviewed. I'll say that mine is to do this video interview process because I am genuinely like thinking so much good can come from the questions I can ask someone else and then they can just ask me. And I do want to pick like one area, probably, I think, podcasting, and then something that's more like a passion that I feel like I could bring to Linkedin and the a unique way and just start trying stuff where it's like, okay, I know at least one post a week I'm posting on, let's say podcasting. Right then just start there. It's not going to become the pillar of I'm not going to become this person that's repetitive as crap, because I don't have that yet, but I think that's my easy next step. In the beginning, you probably can't post a lot of topics and then, as an exploration, to find out what the topic is, you know I'm saying, and then over, over time, you kind of find you greatly lean towards one or one pops more than the other ones and you kind of like that anyway and you got to go for it. Actually think you can be abroad in the beginning, so I don't think there's a problem with...

...that, but I think eventually you do want to hone it down. My one thing that I've thought about doing for a long time, but I'm like, I just need a freaking pull the trigger and just hire someone to coach me some spe specifically someone who's good at finding the thing and finding your story behind it and coaching you through it, because some people are good at it and do it enough that they're like you lay out a whole table worth of stuff and they're like Oh, yeah, this, this and this. In fact, when you told me this about your story lines up perfectly with that. This is your sound bite. You're just like what like? I think of woman called Robin Farm and Farmanium, long last name. I interviewed who are me to be growth, and I realized, I'm like, you're one of those people. You're really good at this, because we talked a little bit about even my own personal brand a bit and she was able to ask a few questions that I'm like, oh my gosh, I need to hire you, like help me figure this out. So part of me is thinking about reaching out to her or finding other people and then just pulling the trigger and hiring somebody to do an hour long session, maybe a couple hour long sessions, and it probably would be enough to create a lot of clarity. Yeah, you guys are really inspiring me to to after I get off this call, to go and tea clutter and organize my content, because I have pages and pages and pages of ideas and notes and sometimes I go back to those and I'm like, I don't think I like this anymore, so I just need to delete some stuff, I need to add a some stuff and get organized. I think it would also be helpful to have maybe like a content audit, like someone to tell me you should not be talking about these things but this is actually really good. You should be talking about this and I think that it's a simple thing, but an effective thing, to just ask for help, to say like, what do you think of the content that I've been putting out? So for me, my action items are declare and organized and then ask for some feedback. HMM, this has been a fun one. It's thought provoking and it's just real right. I think anybody that's listening to this is going to feel this tension, whether you're creating content for a company or you're thinking about your Solo brand and what you're doing as an individual on social or whatever platforms. So, who it's not one whet. We're wrapping up going here's the answers, and you definitely should do this. It's just an ongoing conversation we should all be having. If you want to connect with any of us, do that over on Linkedin. We want to be talking to you and we would love your input. If you have ways that help you create content and helped you hone in on a couple key pillars, I would love to know what's working for you. Right now, we're about to jump into a conversation and interview that I did with Scott Miller. He is the senior advisor of thought leadership at Franklin Cuvey Leadership Institute. This conversation is one on the perils of self centered marketing and I know you're going to find it insightful and Scott rings a great energy to the show. So let's tune in check this out. Welcome back to be to be growth. Today I am joined by Scott Miller. He is the senior advisor at Franklin Covey. Scott, we are so glad to have you here today, man, and see my an or man. Thanks for the spotlight and the...

...platform, for sure. So let's do this. Let's just start with like a flyover, maybe some high level perspective. Give me some brief context around the background that you have as it pertains to marketing specifically. Sure. So I spent four years at the Walt Disney Company, the Disney Development Company. They invited me to leave, which is a different interview and different podcast. And Twenty seven years ago so I moved from Orlando and went to Salt Lake City, Utah, where I joined the cuvey leadership center, now the Franklin Cuvey Company, the world's largest and most trusted leadership development firm, founded, of course, by the famous author Stephen Are County, of the seven habits of highly effective people. I was the chief marketing officer for a decade yeah that company and then became the executive vice president of thought leadership. We've sold sixty million copies across all of our titles. Retired from the company about a year ago. I still am the advisor to them on all things thought leadership, public relations books and their entire book strategy. I have authored five books on my own. I host the world's largest weekly leadership podcast called on leadership, with Scott Miller. What if it what? A few books about marketing. Made a few marketing mistakes along the way and feel free to tap into my reservoir a couple of successes today. That's perfect, because I think for so many and I've had this conversation a few times, but it feels like in marketing right everything is shiny and we need to highlight some of the mess because behind the scenes marketing is all sorts of experiments and trial and error and every but we all look so shiny on the outside, Scott. So thank you for even titling your books with mess in the title. That is a wonderful way to think of marketing. Well, I think it's true. I think the best marketers are those that are willing to walk into the CEO or the investors and say a cable, this didn't work and that did not work and this was a total flop, and all those were my ideas. This one shows some glimmer of hope and so we're doubling down on this for looking at all the metrics. Those are the best marketers. I mean, every CEO's nightmare is the CMO that spins the marketing message internally like they do externally. I honestly got I think it's why I lasted ten years as Cemo of a public company, you know, three times the national average. Not because I was a marketing genius. I just told the truth to the CEO and talk transparently around what wasn't wasn't working, so we could get it together and and unpack. You know what, what we could do more of and do less of. HMM. Well, let's talk about some of the obstacles that stand in the way. So, as you've worked with marketing teams, what would you say you see as the largest obstacle that stands in the way of us being successful. You know, Donald Miller is a good friend of mine. I've written a lot about he. He's endorsed my books, of course, building a story brand and all the other books that Donald written right about of Nashville. You know, Donald Talks so much about the heroes journey that so much of our market is self referenced. Is that it's about, you...

...know, our R D our mission, our vision, our values, our purpose, our expertise and me, me, me, and it's understandable. You could ask your home second mortgage your home right. You've put your life work into that. Your grandfather, Jose or pepe, brought the butt, the ingredients for your secret sauce, over and underwear. Herb on the titanic made it. You get the point right it yeah, you, you're so emboldened and holding, if you will, to your to your mission. Most clients don't care what your mission is or your values or your vision. They want to see themselves in your message. If they can't see themselves in your marketing message, if you're not using words that they use, acronyms that they knew, use your chest, you've got a very expensive monument to yourself. HMM. This might be dismissed by most people, but how often are you spending your time listening and talking with your clients and using the language that they use to solve the problems that they're facing? Very few of US do. That takes discipline, it takes you moving outside your comfort zone and checking your ego, which is tough for all of us. HMM. Well, I want to hit on that and I want to go go pretty deep there for the next fifteen, twenty minutes here with you and just talk about self centered marketing, because it's something that I feel like we can peel back the layers on and then help diagnose and wherever you are listening to this today, right, we can always be readjusting, evolving, thinking about how we're so guilty of this, because I know this is even a check for me in my marketing efforts. Right. So, you say it pretty often that we as marketers are we're so focused on what we love versus what our customers need. We're focused on what we love versus what our customers need. What do you mean by what marketers love? Like flesh that out for me. What do the marketers get obsessed with? That our customers aren't so interested in. Well, I think it's there's a couple ways to approach this. One is I think we, like most of us, we speak the way we like to listen. We know, so I might, to speak it a loud voice and a charismatic, fast paced and not everyone listens that way. We market similarly. I mean most CMOS I know have a passion around either, you know, Goo, go analytics or social media or sceo or direct mail or email or billboards or, you know, video. I think most of US market the way we like to be marketed to. Now most people will say that's not true, but I think there's inherently some of that true. So first I would say make sure that you're not deploying or employing tools and channels modalities that don't just exercise your own creative juices. It don't bring you a level of satisfaction it can. Takes a really humble, confident person to say you know what, Scott, you might be right. The reason I'm doing videos because I'm very visceral and very visual, or maybe I'm doing podcast because...

I like an auditory approach, or I'm creating direct mail pieces because I still love direct mail. Yeah, there's a place for all of that in your marketing mix. Right. Frankly, I think direct mail has had a resurgence in the pandemic. As long as if I can find the right address. Direct mail is certainly I read all my mail that comes my mailbox. I don't read that nine hundred emails I get a day across for in boxes and instagram and Linkedin and facebook. Yeah, first is to make sure that your marketing and a channel that your customers are in and they're focused on right right the right channel in your myths. Second is, I think, to make sure that you are speaking the language of your customer, that you're speaking the language of the business. You know, when I say engagement, you might mean leadership, but I say culture, you might mean preductivity, understanding the job could be done. What is the problem your client, prospective client, is trying to solve and are you meeting and finding them in a way that resonates with them? You know, Franklin convey is a great example. For years we would use words like stewardship. Yep, I mean like your God, responsibilities, whatever, religious organization, where Public Company, the people would we hear the word stewardship and think church. Yep, it's church word. Yep, and we would say don't know, that's that's what we call. People would say, wait, are you church? No, you're not church. So for us it was a natural word to use to describe your job responsibilities, and someone at last ail US might say yeah, no, thank you, next, next, next, ender. So I think it's just so important to not only do what you like and no best, but also make sure you're speaking the language of your business but also the language of the market place in the client as well. Okay, so let's look at a companies that are firing on all cylinders and how are they answering this call to be customer for so you, yes, it's important to meet customers where they are, but like, do you have a couple examples? When you think man, even in your the think the ways you're being marketed to Scott where companies meet you where you are and you go man, that's impressive. That the way that they've taken on. Maybe my vantage point, I'll tell you once not coming to mind immediately, and I get a lot of email and direct mail. I happen to be at buyer of Mercedes that's the car that I like. I find technology, the comfort and safety to the best of class and I have members of my family in that car. They send me probably three pieces of Directmail a week. Literally, they send me three pieces of direct mail oh week, you know, and so they're always they know my buying patterns right. They know that about every two years I'm probably moving my wife out of a car into a new card itch in your looking right. So they know, they know, so they they probably do a great job. I don't mean that to be elitist at all. I just happen to like driving Mercedes and that's been an indulgent that I've worked to earn. So I think we're Sades. has done a good job of knowing my buying...

...patterns and that they reach out to me frequently, probably too frequently. I'm trying to think of you know, the montage is a hotel chain that we like to indulge in and stay as a high or five star hotel chain. We can't afford it every season of the year. We can never afford it a Christmas or Thanksgiving, your Easter, but you know, in July you'll find us in Mexico, a montage because rates are the lowest. But I think the montage resort is another good group that they also know our buying patterns and to make sure that they know that our boys are agings. So they're marketing new adventures for the boys and camps and things like that. So there's a couple of them. I actually don't think it's an expertise of most marketers exactly. Marketers fall into the trap, but they were taught in Business School of this concept of total addressable market. When a fact seth goat and also a dear friend of mine and a genius, will tell you it's the opposite of what you do. Resist the idea of the total addressable market. That's great for your Small Business Admin loan or your DC funding. Instead, focus on your smallest biable market. Are the exact people in Salt Lake City that should be vacationing at the CABBO MONTAGE in July? I who could afford that? What is that segment of customer? It's unnatural. Yep, it requires a lot of discipline that is unnatural for most of us. Most of us are just kind of praying, praying as praying. Do you think that that? I think this is perfect, because you're going I actually don't have that many examples. I totally agree with you. So when you think of that, do you think it's from a place of like you mentioned, just like a business school thing. It's how we were brought up and taught and that's how our brain thinks, or is it something that's like laziness or selfishness? I mean like, what are we missing there? That might be a missing ingredient for us and the marketers listening to go. Okay, Hey, I need to maybe readjust and we'll get into some solutions in a second. But what do you think leaves us in that space where it's so hard to actually put ourselves in someone else's shoes in our marketing? I think a couple of things. I think the marketing world has changed diametrically and the last three to four years around analytics and data and really understanding how to actualize decisions and investments based on data. So I'll bet, I'll bet if you were to interview Marriott and Ford and you know some of these big companies, I'll bet you the majority of their marketing investments are heavily metric oriented. But that's the fortune. Five thousand then there's throughout to the fortune a hundred thousand right on. UNPOP small businesses don't have access to that. Don't have maybe a left brain, think you don't have analytical mind, where their marketing is a little more kind of trial and air. It's email base, maybe it's s SEO base, maybe it's social ads and things like that. So I'll bet you there's more cases than I'm aware of because that's not my world every day to day to day out basis. You know. But you know, you you look at why someone still places an add in the back of people magazine and manial...

...out show is a good friend of mine. He's a former NFL player, ESPN analyst, wrote a few books. You know, he's everywhere. He's on the back cover of every magazine right now in America, as the face of Lexis literally people US magazine. The economist I mean, and I really Emmanuel like you're in the back cover of every single magazine. So just everyone drive Alexis. I I I've got a guess. Lexis, which is, I think, owned by Nissan, and my right or to I don't want of the two, but I I have often wondered. I wonder why a Manta show is on the back cover of like every single magazine right now. Not everyone is in the market the by Alexis. So I still think a lot of marketing is still the art right, yea, you know, but that famous phrase. I know at least fifty percent of my marketing budget is working. I just don't know which fifty percent it is. Still come up at. And every level of business fortune one hundred down the you know, Mama. HMM. Well, we're as we start to wrap this thing up, I want to spend the rest of our time together just going okay, like, let's put ourselves in in a marketer shoes. will say, Heather, she's a marketing leader, she's in her organization, she's coming to you, Scott, she's going. All Right, I've identified in these first few minutes listening to this conversation, got some self centered marketing going on. Where do I begin to turn the ship? What are some maybe diagnostic questions you would ask? First, what would you be looking to do to get yourself out of that mindset and into your customer shoes? I think four five things. First is, do you really understand who is your customer? What is the job to be done? What is the problem they're trying to solve? Do you really know what their problem is? That not what is your solution? Not Problems that the problems that you want to solve, but the problems that your ideal client wants to solve. Have you interviewed them? Do you know how they found you? Do you know why they bought your product? Not why the salesperson says they bought their Protubius. She called the client said, how are we doing? Why did you buy us for someone else? How did you find out about this? Get Out your office. If your office, it's not asking the client, because not asking the salesperson why they bought call the client or clients, and then you can beget to develop look alikes. Right, okay. So if this client bought us for this reason, how can we find more clients in that space? One is what is the job to be done, what is the problem they're trying to solve, and how do you create look alikes? AVATAR's customer journey. Right, understand what was their journey to your brand and how can you get more people in that same journey? Next, I would really be listening to them. I think as marketers, were probably right brain. We're strong communicators. were very creative. We like to create email templates and websites and viral campaigns. No such thing as a viral campaign, of course, and so I think we have to be more thoughtful around. Are we listening enough? HMM. Are we looking at the data? Do we have the metrics upon which to make good decisions? I'll tell you, I think most of us don't like that...

...part of marketing. It's not pretty fun. It's kind of boring. Right. Is the metric analysis and looking at what is the data show us to we have the right metrics and to do some more testing. Are we willing to do test? You know, test three types of email versus, you know, create your email, print your database and this blow it out, versus let's seat it out over the course of a couple of days, different times, different days, different audiences, different subject lines. For my favorite business is in fact subject LINECOM. One of my friends owns it. But it's a great way to test and kind of get the ranking of what is your subject line for emails. And Be careful. Don't blow all your gunpowder in your first email. Be Thoughtful and tested over time and see which ones work through, which audiences. On that one, I have to say for marketers, even if you find it boring but you want to grow in your career, the two areas that are going to cause the most career grows for you as a marketer is getting better with data and getting better at business strategy over all, being able to talk to people outside of marketing about not only what you do but understand what the businesses objectives are as a whole. Benjie Amen, right. As a marketer you need to know how your business makes money. Right, must be like an expert on your money making model, margin, cash velocity, customers and growth. I tell most people who worked under me, leave marketing and go over and become a sales forcecom Ninja, like literally leave marketing, go over to sales or two operations, become a Ninja expert on pipeline, lead scoring, lead generation, understanding all the conversion and then come back to marketing and become a Marquetto or an eloquaw or some other kind of expert. But you're absolutely right. Most of marketers have that marketing language and sales thinks they're idiots because sales has things. They don't have any idea how to build a pipeline how to score and convert. I love your evangelization around that. HMM, anything else you would add to that list that you would say? These are things you need to be thinking about, questions you want to be asking. I would say bruise hard and heal fast, like that is going to work. So be that kind of marketer that is super transparent. Don't hide it. Don't be the marketer that says well, you know, if you look at it from this angle, you know, if you look at you know, opens or clicks. You know, yes, you know. A person with a big vocabulary can defend anything. Don't be that marketer, be super transparent. I I'll hire a marketer that's truthful over one who's a genius storyteller or spinner every day, because now I got somebody in my boat rowing with me. We're testing, we're tweaking, we're bruising hard, but we're healing fast or pivoting, we're turning. That's where you're going to find your voice, in your your magic is just trying different things. Marketing as much as an art as it is anything but being willing to admit your mistakes. Turn on a dime. That is such a valuable skill and any career, but especially in marketing, don't go down with the ship. Yeah, I often find my self saying whose idea was that?...

Oh wait, that was mine. That was insanely stupid. Let's not do that again. Who has a better idea? I think the best marketers are those that have the least ego. HMM, but most marketers have some sort of ego. We, I would say we all do right. Some can't see it in the mirror. We're talking to marketer specifically, but hey, I do. I couldn't agree more, and I think your ego sometimes is what made you good at art in the first place, but it won't keep you there right. So, if you're one of those types like figure out a way to kill the ego and know that your ideas aren't you detach those things. Humility is born out of confidence. Confident people, confident marketers, are capable of demonstrating humility. It's arrogance. Arrogant marketers are incapable of demonstrating humility. To your point, it's the most confident season people that could admit that's not working, stop that, turn it off, let's test something else. Just going all in and then spending all of your created energy figuring out how to position why it wasn't a bad idea. Just admitute, cut your losses and pivoted something else. You can tell of a season that a person is in in their career because it takes so much courage at the beginning, and courage and arrogance can sometimes be together. You almost need the arrogance to jump out of the boat right and then, as your career goes on, you move from like courage to boldness to confidence, and then arrogance goes down right because you're like, okay, I've done this a few times and I realized my ideas aren't me and you're detaching certain things. So it's such an interesting way that that works, as evidenced by my book called Marketing, Mess Brand success. That took I couldn't have written that book in My S. I had to write that book in My S. MMM. Well, this has been so interesting. I love this conversation, Scott, and you just brought up your book. So I do want you to take a minute real quick plug the things you're working on right now, ways that people can connect with with you. Thanks, benchie. So you can visit me at Scott Jeffrey millercom I write a magazine column for ink magazine, host a couple podcasts, like you do, my book and I referenced His Marketing Mess to brand success. That's the second book in the mess of success series. The first book was management mess to leadership success. Coming out sing will be job ness to career success and communication mess to influence success. I've also written a series of books called master mentors that are based on the podcast that I host on leadership with Scott Miller and I'm just honored to be on your stage today. Thank you, Veggie. So Fun to get to have this conversation. For those listening, connect with Scott. We would love for you to do that and hey, you can connect with me on Linkedin. Just Search Benjie Block and would love to talk to you more about marketing, business and life. And if you aren't subscribed to be to be growth yet, you can do that on whatever your favorite podcast platform is. And will always be coming out with content like this to help stoke our fire in marketing right and help make a better marketers, more humble marketers. Coming out of this conversation those...

...that are willing to admit we don't have it all figured out, but we are doing our best and we're continuing to get better. Hey, keep doing work that matters. Will back real soon with another episode and Scott, thank you so much for being with us today. Man, if you enjoyed a day show, hit subscribe for more marketing goodness. And if you really enjoyed today show, take a second to rate and review the podcast on the platform you're listening to it on right now. If you really really enjoyed this episode, share the love by texting you to a friend who would find it insightful. Thanks for listening and thanks for sharing.

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