B2B Growth: Your Daily B2B Marketing Podcast
B2B Growth: Your Daily B2B Marketing Podcast

Episode 1759 · 3 months ago

The Most Over-Rated Trend in B2B Marketing | Original Research

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

We spoke with 100 marketing leaders and asked "What’s the most overrated trend in B2B marketing?" In this roundtable discussion Benji, James, and Dan, break down the findings.

Discussed in this episode:

  1. The pendulum in marketing channels and mediums
  2. ABM as more than a buzzword
  3. Why creating content with your ideal client is a game-changer

Conversations from the front lines of marketing. This is B two B growth. Welcome in. On today's episode of B Two B growth, we're gonna be talking over some some overrated trends, and we had the privilege recently, like in the last couple of years, of sitting down with a hundred marketing leaders and asking fifteen original research questions. We're tackling one of those on this episode today. With me we have James Carberry and Dan Sanchez and we're gonna dig into the findings around the following question. What's the most overrated trend in B two B marketing? Before we do that, like, let's just talk about how this research was conducted for a second, James, because I think it's important context, and then we'll dive into the question. Tell me a little bit about the process of of getting this research and compiling because it was actually before I was was on the team even. Yeah, so the original idea is that we would actually like charge for this original research and that we would do it quarterly. And we're like, we're we're already having all these conversations with B two B marketing practitioners on B twob growth. Why don't we just tack on some questions into the pre interview of the Post interview and we'll compile this research. It will be qualitative instead of the typical like surveys that are just quantitative. And boy did I not realize how much of a massive undertaking this would be. So we started this in started the conversations and we decided that we wanted to try to get to a hundred. I can't remember what the original number was. We're like, you know what it'll sound sexi or if we have a hundred people that we've we've asked these questions too. So we kept pushing through. We got lost in the slog of it because organizing everybody's answers, you've got to transcribe everything, you've got to figure out how to like organize it in a a that is easy for someone to go back...

...through and either read or listen to all the content so that they can come up with insights. Anyway, it took us all of basically the back half of and all of one and then the first part of to put this all together. But the original intent was, hey, this, this could be like a product that we end up selling and that might still be something we do down the road. The original intent was not to. From what I can remember, I don't think we ever intended to like break it down on B twob growth like we're doing now. So that's been a more recent or more recent idea or evolution of the original research project. But that's how we did it. I mean it was just we are already having conversations with these B two B marketing leaders and we just said, hey, it'd be really interesting if we asked all of them the same ten or fifteen questions and then compiled the data and and told the world about it. Yeah, in Sorri right, like research like this is always so great to have posts, but when you're actually in the process of collecting you and then, I think we're even going to jump into this in a minute, but like when you think of trends, getting original research data driven, like the jump from data to actual insight, there's just so many steps in between and pulling that out, and so we are learning that, but we're still using this and I think that's what's important, because there's so much here that we can glean conversation from and then ultimately it will make us better at our marketing. And so that's our hope and our desire and honestly, honestly, Benji, it is, I don't want to say surprising, because I hear Chris Walker talk about it all the time, but the benefit to this, in addition to it being great content, it's actually giving us insights that are helping us build a better product or better service for our clients. So we were just in Denver with our leadership team talking through like how can we take our service to the next level, and we're thinking through like what kind of guarantee can we incorporate into our offer and the insights from this research. We had just compiled like the last of the insights from it, and I ended up referencing this original research...

...all throughout the entire day because we had just talked to literally a hundred of our ideal buyers. We know what keeps them up at night, we know how their CEO measures and their success. We know what their biggest struggle is. So we can literally cater our service to what we now know. We're not guessing anymore. We know what these people are saying and we can go back and actually listen to them say it. And so I'm pretty bullish on the fact that every company should figure out how to do this. I'll be the first one to tell you it as hard as hell, but absolutely worth it. Well, today's question is very subjective and it's good to acknowledge that before we go into this. This is less saying everyone thinks this way and more here's a bunch of things that, as we surveyed marketers, B two B marketers, they're going this is an overrated trend in marketing and B two B marketing right now. And so here's what I'm gonna Invite from Dan and James, as they can interrupt me at any time. I'm about to to read through this list of answers that given to this question. And guys, if if one is is kind of like a bigger deal to you, you want to talk about it for a second, interrupt me and we can talk about it discuss. So here are some of the things that were mentioned as overrated trends. Trade shows, AI, chat bots, gated content, a B M as a service or tool or product, email capture, white papers, sending gifts that aren't personal, being data driven. So that is a lot of things. The ones that stand out to me. I think that we've all kind of evolved our thinking around. The one that we were talking about right before we hit record was was gated content. And so there's this massive push to get all of your content and Dan, you've actually had you've helped me kind of see a different way. I decided not to gate our B Two B podcasting course that we we released a year or two ago. I still don't think I regret that decision. Dan, you feel differently.

What are your thoughts, dwn on, on why this whole push to get all your content is maybe not the best idea? As it is with most trends, like trends tend to flip from one side to the other. So we go really hard on one side and of course pushed it too far and then everyone's like no, it sucks, it's horrible, so it swings to total opposite side instead of landing in the middle. Right. I came from a B to c world and from higher ed where I was using gated content successfully, like it was freaking working. I would get their email, I would send them great follow up emails and I would send them good content, like they would literally come in on a specific category on the blog. I showed them a relevant lead magnet that was relevant to that category. Some would opt in for it and get the lead magnet and I'd follow up with more articles related to that category and the consumption levels are really high and of course over time the consumption level of them would go down and I'd unoped them out if they didn't engage with a certain amount. But I would never send them to sales. Versus when I found out when I came over to B two B and, people were like literally capturing people on content and then shipping into sales without them initiating any kind of sales conversation, I was like, well, of course the lead's not going to covert. No wonder sales hates like this kind of quote unquote m Q. Well, I would never do that, like I might throw a right hook and the email every once in a while being like hey, you want to talk to sales? No, cool, don't. I wouldn't send waste our time on sales because I know that it's just made sense that it didn't work. At first I was like, why are they so against gated content, and I found out, oh, it's because you're freaking doing it wrong. Like if you do it right you can essentially send them more value and endear them, a small percentage of them a little bit more. But if you have thousands of people coming to a blog or to a podcast or to whatever the content is, and you're capturing a small percentage with something more value and then you're following up in a really good way, there's nothing wrong with that and it works well. I think a lot of my issue with, you know, getting on lists because I wanted to download something, and it's just getting increasingly and it's getting harder and...

...harder, I think, to create something good enough for me to want to consume it in my inbox. And I don't know if that's too much, just me getting hammered with spam. And I just hired someone to specifically like focus on my inbox for me. So I literally like I have such an aversion to getting sucked into the rabbit hole that is my inbox that so I I hesitate to come on too strong here because I think I'm probably an extremist when it comes to just like I don't want to think about my inbox. I want to be in my inbox. I want somebody reading all my stuff and then texting me to let me know if they think that there's something big enough that I need to pay attention to or or think about that comes into my inbox, because our internal comms happen in slack and so I'm tuned in internally to the team through that platform. And so all the external stuff coming from email, most of it is just absolute garbage. But I do think that if you're thoughtful, and we talked about premise development all the time and figuring out what's your Hook, what's your angle, and you see companies like the Hustle and these newsletters morning, you know morning crew like there have been people that have figured out how do we deliver a delightful experience in the inbox that people actually want to consume. But it requires a lot of thought and it requires a lot of editorial lift to create something so good that somebody wants to look at it. And I think most of the time we, you know, at least in B Two b land, there's not the thought and care put into what goes into the email and and that's a shame because I think it's kind of given gated content a really bad name. But we took a hybrid approach with the B twob podcasting course and said Hey, you can you can watch all the course for free, or you can sign up if you want access to updates or you want a log in or you want it in your inbox so that you can file it away and go back to it easily without having to remember a link. So there was some utility to like, but we allowed people to do both. I'm seeing more and more people do that. It's like, Hey, you can download it here if you...

...want the pdf in your inbox, or you can just look at it here. So yeah, so much of this stuff. I think you hit the nail on the head, Dan, when he said it's that we're somewhere in the middle. Like we we like to take hot takes and go with the completely other way when in reality, uh, there's probably a middle ground there, and I think the middle ground, particularly forgated content, is are you delivering something exceptional in the inbox once you capture that email, and obviously not just sending them straight to sales? It's interesting because I would just use the imagery of a pendulum swinging, because the most of marketing where you're going to get your advantage is when people swing really hard to one side. You just look. Okay, they're all paying attention over here. If we just go pay attention to whatever the opposite is, there's less people over there right now and that's where we win. You look at direct mail and everybody that advocated to get rid of direct mail went over to digital things and made it so crowded in the digital space that there is definitely people that are winning with direct mail because they went where everybody else thought we can't win over there. And so when you look at this list, I'm like, can you win at trade shows? Yeah, if there's a ton of people on linkedin saying you shouldn't do trade shows, Blah Blah, blah, Blah Blah, but you know your market. When I look at this entire lit like chat box would be a similar thing. If you thought it was a trend a few years ago and most people are walking away from it in your little industry and you walk into it, there could be a potential advantage if done correctly. And even one thing we've talked about on B two B growth before that hit this list was sending gifts that aren't personal that we've talked about. Get receiving a gift and you're like this is like half done merch or this is half done like swag, and I'm I'm just not in on it. We we literally just hit pause on something like we were about to do that. We were about to send out boxes to to folks in squads, and I looked at what was going to go in the boxes and I was like this just doesn't this doesn't feel like something I would get in the mail and go, man,...

...that was delightful, and so we boshed it. But I don't think a lot of people have that have are necessarily thinking about it in the same way, and so they put a lot of time, into effort, into into things that don't actually do what what they hope they would have done. I just think, yeah, that pendulum and being aware of where you're at potentially can give you an advantage, and that's as I look at this list. People are like, Oh, this is so overrated. They get really passionate about it, and if that becomes a blind spot, like just be aware that there is someone that can win in that category still, there's someone that's using it effectively. If you really want to learn it, you can learn it. You don't, you shouldn't learn everything. Some of these things you should just all right, that's for someone else, but pick your things and pick wisely. Dan. Anything else that stands out to you from this list? Yeah, I still think chat bucks suck. Everybody is saying they suck. I'm like, Yep, I agree. Yep, that was a bad trend all through. I haven't seen it done well. So somebody proved me wrong. I hope. If you know a chat bought that works well, send it to Dan on Linkedin and Hill. I think we use a chat Bot on the sweek fish site. I can't remember now. I hate it, I know. Okay, so I'm looking at the key findings here. I'll tell you, guys, how it was broken down status wise. So most marketers listed a B M actually as a service or a tool or a product, as the trend that was most overrated. So that actually came in a B M as a as a tech tool. At and Dan, I know we've talked a lot about a B M, so probably want your insight here. But then it goes to things like social media, chat bots, trade shows. I think social is very funny and that's such a broad term that I don't understand quite how we got to eight percent. There but then four percent for things like virtual events personalization. So there's a huge jump...

...down from a B M to these other categories. Any first initial insights, when you hear that Dan is a statue. Twenty one percent saying the most overrated was a B M, I'm not surprised. They were very successful in establishing that as a category. What's interesting is three times as high as the second one, almost three times to eight percent. What I found interesting and reading the responses is there's almost always nuance to how people said a B m. But there it's almost like they can't throw a B m out the window completely. It's always like just the way it's emphasized about it being a tool or a crm. But almost all the marketers, all B two B marketers, know the a B M is actually a really good thing and coming from a BBC World, I didn't even know and honestly it made me fall in love with B two B, because a B M can be so it's you just have more information to work with. It's so different to cover a category. You know a category, even using firm a graphics to have a narrowly defined category is very different from no, we're going to target these three companies to totally different approach changes the game and some people might call that best practice, but I think most marketers know that that is a good thing. And maybe they were doing in sales, but I don't I still don't think most marketing departments do it that way. I know even at sweet fish we kind of do it that way sometimes, but most people just spray a very good segment. They're doing segmentation but not going after specific companies, and I think that's why a B M is so loved and hated, because of the tech people throw onto. It's like, oh well, you have to have terminus, you have to have this, but really most marketers will come to the conclusion that you can do it with just an excel sheet, like it doesn't have to be fancy. Yeah, I like that you called out the fact that you know. The fact that three times more people that you know there there were these folks that said a B M is an indication of how well I see terminus as really being the category King of a B M and I think sang Ram just did a masterful job of designing and building the category of a b m. and naturally, when you do something that creates widespread awareness,...

...a lot of adoption, you're gonna have a lot of people hating on it. And so I personally know sand Rome uh pretty well and I know his heart and I know like a lot of just seeing these responses going because of this. I don't like it and I don't like it and I'm like, I think sand Rome would agree with you, like he doesn't like that either, like that's not what he's advocating for as he was building this this category of of a b m. and so I think category builders just naturally. If, if you succeed, I think in a lot of cases you're you're going to have folks like this that push back against it. Well, let's talk about because of these results, as you think of overrated trends, what are some recommendations? What are some things we would do differently or or be aware of? And I can go first on this. I think for me we're sort of speaking around it, but I think whenever there's a big trend like a B M and it has staying power, right, but I think there's can be like strategy fatigue or people half baked something and they call it a b M. They're not fully in on it. There like executing at at sixty s and there's saying yeah, we're doing a B M. and when they start talking about that, then more and more in the market or more and more on Linkedin. You just get a lot of ideas all mixed in together that create like a messaging problem and then you think something is overrated because we didn't see the results that were preached by whoever the leader is or those those companies that are killing it. It's like, well, our company tried that and it didn't really work, and I think knowing that that fatigue can set in because it's being harped on over and over again is so important. But to assess, like how much are we actually putting in into this, and is this our course strategy, like is this the thing that we really really want to do? If we're gonna do it, let's do it and go all in on it. That's one of the absolute most most important things you can do. We talked about focus on a previous one of these original research episodes. You have to have a focused strategic approach or it's...

...really hard to win. And so to me it's like, well, if a B M is your your course strategy, then that's gonna make a lot of other decisions easier for you because you know what you're doing and how you're going to market. James, what did you think as as kind of recommendations based out of this? Yeah, so, I mean just I just think a lot of people have a bad taste in their mouth about a B M because of their personal experience being on the receiving end of it. It's particularly you know, we talked to VPS of marketing. I think some CMOS were in the mix. I mean those are executives that are right. I mean there's how many, nine thousand Martek tools, and so I think you're on the receiving end of you know, hey, can you take this hundred dollar gift card and jump on a demo with somebody from our sales team? And somebody's calling that a B M and it's like uh, so, bad execution of a B M. I think gives a B M a bad name. But, like we've been saying this whole time, like that's probably love marketing, the room that we have for creativity, outside the box, thinking doing something that's not necessarily that's not breaking news. It's been done before, but we can do it better, we can have a more creative execution. So I think that plays a big part of the bad taste that people have in their mouth about a b m. Dan, what are your thoughts here? I think the problem most B two B marketers make with a B M is they over index on personalization. Rather than being personal. The cool part about knowing who what the companies are that you're marketing to, even knowing the individuals in the company, which is the advantage. I fell in love with that. I do, because in B two C you don't have that. B Two c you just have to spray you know and just hope they come to you. Unless you're working in like with millionaires or something, it's like you don't you don't know who they are. You can't make it personal. It's like impossible, but in B two B you can. So what companies did was just be like, oh, hello, first name, how is it going to insert a company name? Are you going to be interested in one...

...of our products? You're like that's not come on. Just because you can insert their first name and company name doesn't make me more likely to like the thing. Just because you can insert my company and my low my region onto your website homepage. Oh, I'm so much more likely to like your product. Come on, like, what were you thinking? Just because I don't know and I understand like they just because they can pull it off technically doesn't make it actually effective, but they market it like it's effective. Like people like to see personalization, but what the opportunity is to make it highly personal. You know, I can now actually understand the company. I can look at their if they're a public company, like their their past financial performance kind of understand where they're at. Are they on the rise, are they struggling? Are they on the are they going down or they kind of going back and forth? How is their product doing? How is it perceived? I can actually go look on social media to see how they're perceived. If I'm selling them some kind of marketing service or something, I can get to know the individual I'm selling to and follow them on social and interact with them and build relationship and send maybe something that's personal to them. I had someone sent me a personalized gift. They found out I loved running, so they sent me a book on running called born to run. I'd actually already read the book. It's one of the if you're into running, so like one of the best running books you could read. But it was a very thoughtful gift and even though I don't had already listened to the book on audible, I was like, Oh, they looked at my profile, they know I'm into running. It's not something I talked about, but it is. It is online and it was a very thoughtful gift and that's where being personal that's where the power of a B M comes to play, because you're actually paying attention to the real people and the real companies and making your message just so much more relevant for them. You made me just think about like where I'm actually wary of something. I'm very wary of automation, like just pushing me through something, and it partially because we're marketers right, so we're very aware, oh, we're probably in a sequence right now, or we were you. You just start like thinking about what's the back end of this? But when I get an email where it's like personalized and I put personalized in quotes,...

...there's such a lack of attention to detail and you know that you're just one of a thousand getting this thing that you're like, I'm so less likely to engage with that company moving forward like let alone. It doesn't leave me at neutral. It actually makes me feel pretty crappy. And so automation, I think, has become something where I'm like in its best form, like if it was serving up. I've talked to several CMOS who are like working companies where their their content. It's like an automated content machine. Okay, they read this, that's how much time on page we should offer up this. Maybe in that context I would like it. But specifically with like email and the sequences you put me in, a lot of times it just feels like I'm just another one of the random numbers in your in your sequence. I don't know if if you guys feel that at all either. Yeah, I mean it might take on people sending bad emails. I guess it's it's more about like a one, like when I get a bad cold email. It doesn't that's necessarily hurt as weird as it sounds, it doesn't tarnish the brand for me because I spend so little, like you can detect them from a mile away and they're deleted before I even like. So you could literally I could have the same person sending me the same crappy cold email and it like it doesn't because I don't even it doesn't even like register in my brain who you are. So I don't give it the thought to even try to remember the company name. If I were to see like somebody from their team post on Linkedin, I wouldn't have that negative association. That might be different with like corporate kind of more like broadcast emails, not corporate, but broadcast emails, where they're like hitting my inbox over and over and over again, or like I can't figure out how to UNSUBSCRIBE, like because it actually caused me pain in trying to like go through and try to figure out how to unsubscribe. That might that triment the brand. But what I know we're we're harping on on a B M a lot here, but obviously are. You know, I wrote a book about this oncept of content based networking and and using...

...your podcast to engage on a very one to one human level with decision makers that your target accounts by asking them to be a guest on B two, b growth, and so there are so many benefits that come out of that. Obviously I think I was talking to it might have been even Dan he's in Orlando this week. We were talking two nights ago, I think, and it was just like it's you know, content based networking is is hard in the same way that cold outbound is hard. If you're only thinking about content based networking as like a sales like I want this guest to become a client. Like if that is your sole purpose of doing a B M through a podcast, prepared to not, you know, to be underwhelmed, because the likelihood that so, when you reach out to to be a guest on your show, is in market in that moment for your specific solution very, very rare. I mean we've done thousands of episodes. Very early do we ask someone to be on B two B growth and then, like, I think it's happened maybe twice where like within the next couple of weeks are like hey, like, can we talk about having you guys produce our podcast? Like very rarely does that happen. oftentimes it will be like a year, two years, sometimes three or four years down the road, and there's relationship that goes into that. Right, like you, you ask someone to be a guest on the show, you now have have a conversation, like you know that their kids just went off to their first year at, you know, Alabama or and so you get these insights and then, if you're connected on Linkedin, you can now engage in a way that you couldn't engage with them before. And so I am still a huge advocate of leveraging podcasting for relationship building and I think relationship building and a B M are much closer tied to one another than a lot of people think. It just it's harder work and it's not as like push button, easy to automate. But I still think it's incredibly effective. When I look back now, you know, after...

...building this business for seven years, the relationships I have in in B Two b marketing have been a massive strategic advantage for us for a wide variety of reasons. But I think that that approach to leveraging relationship building through asking someone to collaborate with you on content is a huge still relatively, I think, pretty untapped potential for a B M execution. Yep, I would totally agree, and I think it's great to look at the positive side of creating content with somebody else and how you can be personal there and play the long game and and even just from a your network. It holds everything for you as as a person, career wise, like the connections that you have, the community that you are within. It opens doors for you, right. So, like just allowing something like a podcast and creating content together to do that. It opens up your mind. It's creating something of value for other people and you're now connected to this person long term that maybe you end up doing business with. When you get that narrow focus. We've all heard a podcast, and I mean I have clicked off several very fast when you could tell, okay, they're just kind of here to do their thing because this is gonna hopefully drive business, versus having a compelling conversation and being there to to give away valuable content. It's just a different way of operating and that's obviously what we're going to advocate for. I think something I'm thinking about is you're explaining that, James was like we need to know, and we hit on this last week too, like what are the buzzwords in our space right now? And, even if we're sort of doing something that could be labeled like a B M, making sure that how we're talking about it and how we're thinking about it is not just in a way of like, okay, uh, you know, we're we're using this a B M strategy. When you start saying that and people already think it's a Buzzword, they're going to turn off mentally. Right. So, like how you go to market with the language you use is really important, and then how you check yourself on like...

...why are we doing those things? We're doing the underlying why. It's really valuable to to come back to and that's something as a marketing team here at sweet fish that we've been doing, thinking about our purpose and and our why and how we go to markets. So that was I'm really glad you brought up content based networking and I also think it's just when it comes to a b m even though we do have a bit of that play, I don't know that we would talk about it quite like that because we care more about the people that were actually interacting with it. Actually, it's it's so strange to me. I actually do not give a crap if someone coming on to be to be growth. I literally wrote a book about building relationships with your ideal buyers, but I could not care less whether or not they end up buying from us or not. And that's it sounds so weird, but, like I just I know all the other benefits that come from that. The affinity that gets built when you get to have a meaningful, you know, minute conversation with somebody, learning about their family, like, learning about what their points of you are, how they see the market, like the growth for me that I've experienced by now forming relationships with hundreds, if not thousands, of our ideal buyers. It has allowed us to iterate on our service, it's allowed me to figure out pricing things. They've connected me to other people in their network, like there's just so many benefits beyond that one specific person becoming a client of sweet fish. But you have to go into it with that mentality or if you don't, people see right through it. Marketing takes courage and need good marketing. Obviously you're getting close to your clients and you're understanding their pain. We talked about all these things. It sounds Cliche, but that's ultimately what we're driving at right now too, is like this is just another way of understanding where they're actually at and being able to add something of value. So that's that's crucial. Dan, final thoughts here as we're starting to wrap up today. You know, I'm looking back through the list of all these different trends and some part of me wants to say, like you know, it really takes a sermon to know which ones are the better ones. But at the same time, even even if some trends are...

...more powerful than others, I think the thing that actually works the most is just going all in on just one or two or just picking a few and just like staying the course for longer than you think, going way harder than you know, and it's usually takes ten times the amount of work then you think it's going to take. Blogging, it doesn't work on one blog a week. You literally have to put in ten times more, or maybe at least fifteen a month. It's just a lot. Like you have to put in way more podcast episodes for your podcast to drive the massive results you're hoping I can't say the same for Chat Bots, since that's an automated feature. Like for most of these like you just have to go harder or spend way more time learning how to perfect it before you can actually expect it to drive zero, like a lot of results. So I think you can honestly win with any of these things, as long as you just stay focused, become a master at it. But you have to dedicate yourself to the journey of mastering how to do the thing. Even chat bots Dan like. If you go deep enough in chat bots and you're customizing each experience based on what page they landed on, based on the source of how they ended up coming there, there's so many different journeys. So even within chatbots, if that was your focus, you could become exceptional at chatbots. You're right. If anybody's listening to that and you're like, oh, that's me, reach out, I'll do a whole episode with you. I want to see you. I just haven't seen more. Now I think of like playing guitar and like playing shows, that music is like something in my background, and I think about, like what they would tell me. Once you've played a song so much that you're sick of it, then like that's right when you like in a church setting, right like that's when the congregation is finally understanding the lyrics. They're finally they're finally like, Oh, I remember this one. It's the same thing with like expressing your unique P O v in a market, right like we're on linkedin saying essentially the same things over and over and over again, trying to package it just slightly different so we're not just straight up repeating ourselves. But right as we're getting sick of it is probably when some people...

...are finally starting to get it. And so being like thinking about that and just being like okay, even if I'm sick of this method or this approach or this medium, like I'm barely getting my message across, because it's like, for a second in their day it's like like beat the same drum over and over and over again and when you're unsure, like maybe I've done this too much, maybe just try to like a couple more times. I think that's one of the key takeaways from from this and as we think about trends, like something to to take away. Well, it's been a really fascinating conversation. I love this one because it is so subjective and there's I'm sure there's some things that people are listening and they're disagreeing with. So if there's something you disagree with or something you want to add to the list of trends right now that you're just like frustrated by, I feel free to reach out to James Dan Myself over on Linkedin. We'd love to hear from you. We'll be back next week with another one of these original research episodes and keep doing work that matters. We're always excited to have conversations with leaders on the front lines of marketing. If there's a marketing director or a chief marketing officer that you think we need to have on the show, reach out email me, Benji dot block at Sweet Fish Media Dot Com. I look forward to hearing from you.

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