B2B Growth: Your Daily B2B Marketing Podcast
B2B Growth: Your Daily B2B Marketing Podcast

Episode 2058 · 6 months ago

The Do’s & Don’ts of Scaling Your Sales Organization

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

Everyone wants to scale their business…

But without empowering your sales leaders and setting realistic goals, you never will.

In this episode of B2B Growth, Host John Grispon speaks with Scott Leese, CEO & Founder of Scott Leese Consulting, about the lessons he’s learned from a career spent building and scaling sales organizations for tech startups.

What we talked about:

  • The mindset needed for scaling successfully and repeatedly
  • Why founders need to do a better job of setting sales up for success
  • The only 3 metrics that really matter

    You can find this interview, and many more, by subscribing to the B2B Growth Show on Apple Podcasts, on our website, or on Spotify.

Yeah, Welcome to the Revenue series on theBdB growth show. I'm your host, Jon crispin, founder and sales coach atEarly Revenue. Today I am here, I have a very special guests. Super excited tohave a conversation with him, scott lise. Welcome. Oh, thanks so much johnI'm excited to be here talking with you. So just what a list of accomplishments,you know, if somebody asked me to describe you, I would say prolificsales guy, efficient, amazing, amazingly efficient person with histime. Super helpful and unique are the fourth and, and I guess lastly your sanFrancisco Giants fan. Big one, if I remember correctly, A huge one.Although today I have my A's hat on because we've days have won 10 in a row.So I'm, I'm having a really good start to the baseball season as the Giantshave the second best record in baseball. The A's are in first place. So it'sbeen a good april john well you're talking to a Cardinals fan. So sorryabout that. Offline will have to reminisce about the playoff game in therain. Oh man. Which was a glorious day for me. Maybe not so much for you. Notso much welcome anyway. And so let's let's level set everyone. Our guestsare ceos revenue leaders and venture firms. And our goal is to share withearly stage tech founders and their sales leaders, insights and bestpractices on really two topics that are top of mind For most leaders, the how2s of growing early stage revenues and fundraising. So once again, thanks forbeing here rather than go through your list of of accomplishments andeverything that you do. Maybe just give the folks just a little bit of ahighlight of what you do and how you do it. Yeah, I mean, I spent about 16years or so building and scaling sales organizations for tech startups Allacross the country. But I spent the first half of my career living in theSan Francisco Bay area. And about 10 years ago I moved to austin texas. Thelast company that I was an operator at is a property tech company called Qala.That's worth a couple billion dollars right now. So check that unicorn box ofmine, my list if you will and I've spent the last year and a half runninga couple of different businesses. But my, my main business is uh, around myown consulting firm, Scotland's consulting and uh, I'm sort of as astrategic advisor to founders and heads of sales, primarily those companies inthis sort of 0 to 25 million are our stage because that's what I've done mywhole career is like I'm the guy you call, when you got a good idea and youdon't know how to sell it or scale it. I'm that guy. So I work with anywherefrom 8 to 10 companies at a time all around the world and help them buildout their playbook and hire the right people. And yeah just serve as aresource to help them help them grow awesome. And so we've got the right guyto talk with. So let's imagine, you know, like our audience is a bunch ofearly stage founders. Let's say there's 1000 of them out there. They're hungry,they're eager, their first time founders and they've got a good product,they've got 10 to 12 winds. They looks like they found product market fit,they are founder led selling and maybe looking to bring on their first salesleader a couple of million in a. R. R. So often times you've got far moreexperience than the founder does. and so we're looking for insights and bestpractices and examples that you've seen over time. Let's let's first of all youhave a very full life, you're a founder of your own company, your ownconsulting group. How are you getting all of it in? How do you balance doingwhat you do during the day with the rest of your life? Well number one itshould be noted that I'm a bit of a workaholic. I don't do well just likeparking it on the couch and watching college football all day long on theweekend. Like that's not my not my thing so I like to stay busy. So youknow I I run my consulting business. I...

...run surfing sales which is anotherbusiness. I run thursday night sales which is another business. I run theUniversity of Sales which is another business. one of the things that I havegotten good at is doing a task and then moving quickly and starting the nexttask and I think that what a lot of people do is they work on a task, theyfinish it and then they immediately take a break of some sort. So when Ihit the zone, you know, whatever that zone looks like, right, like whenyou're in the urine, the flow john like whether it's, you know, you're crankingon writing project or editing things or just making cold calls, whatever, likewhen I'm in that zone, I try to stay in that zone for as long as possible. Youknow, that's not to say that I don't take a break throughout the day, but Ithink some people work in like 20 to 30 minute sprints. My friends are like 2to 3 hours and then I'll go for a walk or whatever. And then when I get back,I move quickly again when I get back in it. And so I just try to be like really,really present with whatever I'm working on with an aim towards gettingsomething done. I'm a very action oriented person. I'm not aperfectionist, which I think is a blessing. I think it's actually a curseto be a perfectionist. I also don't over analyze things. So if you and Iwere having a conversation and we hit on some sort of good idea, I'd startworking on it as soon as we're done. And you know, I tease my buddy, RichardHarris about this all the time. He's like, he'll have this idea and I'm like,you're gonna do something about that. He says, no, I don't have time. Andlike 48 hours later I've monetized it. He gets all pissed off at me. I'm like,you got to optimize for action, not ideas. So the degree that we can kindof shrink that delta between idea and action is really, really important. Andso I think that, that, that will be extra efficient. I don't know, you knowhow much of a like hackers secret that is, but that's just how I'm kind ofmoving all the time. Well, it's an interesting approach because you'regetting everything in that you want to get in. You have a number of balls inthe air, you know, add in tequila Tuesdays to all of that, right? Don'tforget that. Um, and you've written a couple of books, so you've got plentygoing on. How are you also taking time? Because I know you're a huge advocateof growth, of personal learning, of making sure that you're, you've got amentor or someone to be an aide or or a teacher in your life, how you allowingfor that and how would you recommend for for those that are just gettingstarted out to engage like that. I paid a lot of attention to who I surroundmyself with And this has kind of been my thing for 20 plus years so now, soyou know, when you talk about like who do you learn from or balance ideas offof like these are people that I text or email or talk to every single day. Sothere's never, it's not like a scheduled thing, like once a week scotttalks to his coach, I'm talking about like, you know what I mean, Like I'mtext messaging, Jon Baril is at midnight, Right? And like Kevin Dorseyis messaging me at 6:00 AM, Justin Wells is asking me about this and youknow, all these, all these people that are like in the kind of the samecircuit, like I'm communicating with very smart people who often times havebeen at this longer than me who sometimes are more successful than me,I'm communicating with them all the time. Those people that I talked tothat serves as a ton of motivation. Whenever I think of myself as trying toget lazy, I have conversations with these kind of people who are also doinga million things and I'm like, well you gotta get off your ass, you gotta, yougotta get moving right. And I, while I do work really hard and don't slow downall that much, You know, every day of...

...the week, I'm taking my kids topractice is taking my kids to sporting games including the weekends. I mean acouple weeks ago, John, I spent nine hours on Saturday and 15 hours onSunday at the Little League field for this baseball tournament. Right? Sowell when my kid is warming up before the game, I'm in my car, I have mylaptop there, I've got spotted and I'm doing work in my car rather than takinga nap or shooting it with other parents or whatever. I'm finding ways to sneakthings in and sneak in productivity And so, you know, to me that's harmoniousto other people, it might not feel that way. But when you were in the officefor 16 years working 12 hours a day in the office managing hundreds of peoplelike I was doing this Is like one big vacation by comparison. It's a lot lessstressful. Yeah. And I certainly feel free. I've got three little ones andthey're, the oldest is just, is almost eight. And so he's getting to thatplace now we're having to go to the fields and the ballparks and everything.So I'm with you on that. So you've got I don't know if it balances the rightdescription but you're getting it all in. You you're learning where you canyou're fitting that in and you also seemed to also allocate time to giveback and to help others. You know I just saw the other day on a post thatyou are responding to 250 some D. M. S. And I know how much work that you do topost jobs because people are either going from working with you to wantingto bring on someone full time. You've even talked to me about those things.You're even having time to give back. Well it depends what we define askickback. Okay so I mean it's really important to me too, trying to be ashelpful as possible. I don't have like uh, core values or mission statement oranything fancy like this. Um this is again an example of me, like notgetting hung up in the details and just getting shit done. But it's reallyimportant to me to send the elevator back down. If you know my story, I Ispent four years in the hospital fighting for my life in my early 20s. Inever even had a job until I was 27 years old because of my healthchallenges. And you know, at some point, the very first, you know, co foundergave me a chance and hired me and was like, I don't know who you are, you'venever done anything. But there's something about you that I think willbe good and so I would never be where I am today if that person wouldn't havegiven me a chance. So I have a soft spot for people who have been throughhell and back and who are, you know, just looking for some help, looking fora guide, whatever you want to call it. So I prioritize all this stuff butdon't get it completely twisted. It's not like I'm a pure philanthropist,like I find ways to help people and then in a sense, like marry somepassions of mine between helping people and community and traveling and surfingin ways that also become profitable for me. I think that you're getting a winwin there, you're helping people and you're doing something for yourself.You always have been this advocate of the individual first before the company,right? Yes, I wouldn't say I always have been because I got stung by that afew times early on in my career. Over the years, I evolved this kind ofmindset, you know, and my job, I've always felt as a leader. If you wereone of my reps, john, my job is to help you get wherever it is you want to gonext. And if that's somewhere with me, great, if you've, you know,outperformed your contract, so to speak and you have a better offer somewhereelse, I'm happy for you more power to off you go. That's my job. And I'vealways been frustrated by people who...

...run companies who say, oh, everythinghas to be about, you know, the company only and you can't do any of this thingon the side. And that's like what that is like an outlandish sentence fromsomebody who stands to make, you know, nine figures or more when they're afounder and you're talking to other people who are making 75 K - 150 Kprimarily in sales rules. That doesn't make sense. And so I'm alwaysadvocating for people to learn more working skills, grow, network more,build your brand, put your own content out there, diversify your incomestreams, create stuff, right? And eventually, you know, kind of get to aplace where maybe you can cut the cord and take control of your own life andyour own income and that type of thing. So it's a big part of what I do and,you know, it takes a lot of time and energy to respond to all those, butthat's become a little bit of like who I am and my brand and and how Icandidly like try to separate myself from other people out there because howmany other people out there are going to respond to all those messages? Idon't know, but I want to be, I want to be known as the one who does. It iscertainly rare. I've been out and about for a little while and uh, I could saythat it's rare. That's uh, I think I called it earlier. I said unique and Istick with that. So a question for you on one question on funding. So you'repart of uh, the GTM fund with max and others. So you, you're familiar withthat side of it, the equation as well. So I'm sure you see plenty of founderscome through and pitch. What's one thing that you would like to seefounders start doing that? They're not today? I think what I would like to seethem doing is start setting up their sales leaders for success a littlebetter. What I mean by that is a few things. Let's have some slightly morerealistic expectations around our growth. Let's have a little bit morehumane Treatment and and stop kicking people to the curb after 12-18 months.I think the average life span of a VPs like 16 months now, which has droppedfrom 18 months, the number I heard before that that is not very much time,especially if you're in some kind of mid market or, or enterprise salesmotion. That's like one sales cycle. That's really, really, it's reallytough. Let's get them a coach or let's get them an advisor, let's get them amentor of some sort, you know, because we founders are tending to optimize forone of two types of candidates, the person who's been there 100 timesbefore and done it, or the person who is super cheap and has never done itever before. And we're hoping they can kind of grow into it. Well, the peoplewho are super cheap and younger in their career that you're betting onGood Lord, let's empower them and give them at least the best chance tosucceed, hire them an advisor or a coach, let them purchase modern sellingtools that help their team perform, you know, all of this kind of stuff. Andthen, um, the last one, maybe a little bit controversial, but get the hell outof their way, get out of their way. I understand that founders often made afew sales and I think maybe they haven't figured out how to how to sellthe product, but there's a big difference between making a couplefounder led sales and coming up with a repeatable scalable pitch and processthat you can teach to a bunch of people who don't care about the industry orfrankly the product as much as you do. Right? So how can you expect a salesleader to come in and do their job if you're all up in their business,telling them how to do how to do that all the time. Right? So hire them,support them, empower them, get out of their way a little bit, let them dotheir job. And, uh, I, I wish we'd see more of that. So if they're in theprocess of, hey, all right, I got to...

...turn this over. I've done enough ofthis. I think it's time for me to bring somebody in. Uh, who would yourecommend? Typically as a first higher? Do you see it more appropriate just tobring in a salesperson to start to take over that first full time hire? Or doyou bring in a sales leader and then let them do the hiring or let them dothe work initially. What's your sense? Sure, it's different everywhere. Itkind of depends on the situation. There is either the there's either themethodology where you start with, you know, on the rep side and then bringingthe leader or you start with the leader and then bring in the reps. The problemthat I have with starting with the website is that a lot of people justpick one rep and one rep is not enough to figure out what works or whatdoesn't work If you're gonna hire reps to start with, you gotta hire three. Idon't care what we're selling. It doesn't matter to me You hire threereps. One of them is probably going to be pretty good. One of them will be manwill be okay. Probably coach them up, keep them stick around for a littlewhile and one of them won't get it and we'll kind of flame out really quick.There's a lot of learning and that, that I need to have, I need to try tofigure out well which type of person made it, in, which type of personshaped what caused this person to shank. And I don't learn that fast enough withjust one person. Those people, if you just hire one person, they're notcompeting against anybody else, right? They're not sharing learnings withanybody else. They're just in a silo doing this on their own. So if you'regoing to start with the reps and then you got to hire three, what I wouldprefer people do Is find the leader 1st, have the leader be the person to workon the messaging and the process and all that kind of stuff and then proveit out and test it. Meaning if you hire me are going to get in and write thescript, I got to figure out who I'm gonna call. I gotta start making calls,I gotta start sending emails, I gotta build pipeline. I gotta close the dealor two. I gotta make tweaks and changes basically what's working and what's notworking now. I've learned all this stuff and if I've executed on it now,now I have confidence to go to you, john the founder and say, hey, I thinkI got this dialed in. It's time for me to hire. I would rather do it that way.It can be done either way, but I would rather start with the the leader andthen bring in the, the rest. So it sounds like you're an advocate ofbringing that sales leaders so that they can start to establish sort of theset of core elements the fundamentals for how to scale that organization andlet him let that person he or she rolled up her sleeves, get their handsdirty in a way, be that player coach for a little while to start tounderstand it from the core and then you build from there. Yeah, I want Iwant my sales leader too have sold the product before and therefore be thebest salesperson in the company at that product for a little while. You know,if you have a couple reps and you bring the sales person in later, don'tunderestimate how hard it is to enter a team situation somehow have to learnthe culture, learn the pitch in the process, learn these egos that I'm nowmanaging, gain their respect, right? It's a it's a trickier situation. Notthat it can't be done. The last company that I was at as an operator, Kuala,there was three sales reps in there when I got there. None of them had evermade a deal, None of them. So I got there. I spent two weeks with thefounders rewrote kind of the messaging and the approach rolled it out to thereps, got in the trenches with them. So there was four of us basically callingand emailing The first month that we did this together, we closed 18 deals.So we went from nothing to 18 deals. When once we did that, I was like, Igot to pull the ripcord. I'm not going to make any more calls. It's time likethis has proven itself. I'm gonna repeat it with just those three with me,coaching them and me kind of working on...

...some other projects on the side. Theyclosed 19 deals, month two. And we're like, it's game on And you know, boomnow we hire 10 more people, you got that group to work, then we hired 20people. Boom, you get that group to work and off and off you go. But thatwas, that's hard for me. It was hard for me to show up and be like high repA B and C. I'm gonna teach you how to sell this thing. And they're like, wellwhat do you mean? Uh we've already been trying to sell it and I'm like, yeah,all due respect. You haven't closed the deal yet, so you don't really know howit's a challenge. It would have been easier for me to just be the first onein there, I think. Yeah. So you mentioned something interesting, youknow, one of the things, one of the recommendations you said for founderwas Get the hell out of the way, once you're you're you're bringing in asales leader. And I think part of that is that that leader needs to begin toform that sales culture. And I'm curious what you think the key elementsare for bringing in that positive selling culture. I presume that it'ssomething that has something to do with coaching, but curious how you frame it.Yeah, I I just frame it as um the team needs to believe that you're in it tohelp them succeed period. We don't care about the number, I onlycare about the number because that's what it takes to get you paid. I'm onlypestering you about the pipeline because I want you to have enough inthere, so you get paid. I'm only working with you on these particularskills because that's what you're going to need in order for you to get paidand move up. I'm only having this conversation with you about how not tobe rude to the product team because I want you to figure out out companypolitics. So eventually you can move your way up the corporate ladder oneday. Like what is a barrier or an obstacle that is in front of you that Ican remove out of your way. That's the foundation to me for building a healthysales team, healthy sales culture. Once that's established now I have, I havesome trust and some rope to be like, hey john a little lazy this week buddy,come on, right. And I can kind of poke the bear a little bit in a playful ishway, But, but you're okay with it because you know, I've been doingeverything in my power to help you. Right? That's where it starts. I thinkyou mentioned pay. So let's, let's talk about cop. It's been my experience thatfounders don't really understand how to compensate its sales leader or in a, oran SDR for that matter. We don't have to go into an actual numbers. But whatis a lot, what's a logical percent for these types of roles? 50 50 for a salesleader? Well, I'm a big believer in 5050 regardless of role. So if you'rean SDR and you're getting paid 50 k base, I think you should have 100 kot.If you're an 80 and you have an 80 K base, I think you should have 100 and60 ot fierce sales DP and you've got 100 and $50,000 base. I think youshould have a 300 K. zero. T. A long long time ago, somebody said to me,you're calm plants should be so simple. You can explain it to your significantother in less than a minute and they understand it. And if it's morecomplicated than that, you've stopped writing your company and I tried toabide by that to the best of my ability for a long time. Now Significant other.I've tried to explain it to a 12 year old. That was that was my that was mygoal. But a 12 year I'll understand it. I don't want to compare the two myself.A little bit of hot water could be similar depending on uh, circuit thecircumstances. Yeah. Well, so, so let's let's keep going since we're talkingabout numbers, Let's talk about metrics.

Most of these organizations, we'retalking about our tech companies. SaAS companies. The SAs metrics are onething. And let's let's push that aside, right? Because Leaders care about thatstuff. But a lot of times, especially in the early the 0-25 million space.Some of that stuff may or may not apply. Just kind of depends on where you're at.So let's talk about the metrics that a sales leader cares about and then a andthat a real that a founder should care about when he's talking to and preppingfor that board meeting. This is an interesting topic because you can getcarried away in any set of numbers, but there's really only a couple of thingsthat that matter. Obviously the volume of deals meaning the number of uniquedeals you've closed the revenue. So how much money is that on every deal? Theoverall size of your pipeline compared to what your quota is? That is to methe most important number. Most people would tell you you need to have a 3-1ratio And that might be true. I'm that maniacal Paranoid person. That's like Ineed to have 10-1. Really? Yeah, because I'm so paranoid that I thinkI'm bound to lose unless I have a massively right, that's just how I'mbuilt that way. You know, they always, I played soccer for a long time and themost dangerous leading soccer is 20, you relax, you can relax a little bit,right? You're up 20, you run the risk of relaxing a little bit, you give upone goal and all of a sudden you're like, oh right, the game is on edge,the rest of the way you give up too and you're tied and all of a sudden you'relike, oh my God, we just blew a 20 lead and before you know what, you're givingup the third. So this 3-1 pipeline ratio, it's not enough for me. I wantto trip and fall into my number. So I'm always thinking, how can I get us to 10?Right, so if our goal for the month is 100,000, I want $1 million dollarpipeline, yep. Now 10 x pipeline to quote a number is really, really hard.Damn near impossible. Impossible. Depending on on what you're, whatyou're selling enterprise sells. That's particularly hard. Right, okay, so youdidn't get to 10, but maybe you got to four instead of three, right? You gotto five instead of three and every bit helps mission accomplished, right? Whatyou're doing is you're stacking the deck in your favor. That to me is themost important number. That's a big leading indicator of of our performance.Um and so it's really just about those couple numbers to me if I really wantedto steal it down to its most basic form, There's 100 other numbers that we couldlook at. But that's what I want to know. What's the size of our pipeline? Howmany unique deals is that? And what's the revenue on those deals? Fair enough.Yeah. Simple. Clean. I like it. And what more, I mean, there are other datapoints to look at. But that pipe should tell the story that you're looking totell. Right? Yeah. It's gonna I mean, if you are think of it this way, ifyour pipeline is that big or somewhere near that big, if you're doing reallywell, you now can report Yeah. And look at the size of our pipeline, we'regoing to keep doing really well if you're not doing that great, you havean easy story to tell that's like, yeah, but look at our pipeline, it's coming.So you're buying yourself time either way. It's true. Yeah, that's a greatpoint. So earlier you mentioned helping teams work on messaging, you've done abit of that. And so, you know, it's important that that messaging make itsway into the content. And one of the early ways that sales teams look todeliver their message is in outbound...

...sequences and in sales dex. How do you,is there a methodology or an approach that you take to helping teams creategreat messaging? Simple, effective messaging? Well, I wouldn't say that Ihave a methodology, but I definitely subscribe to the less is more theory.So I feel like I'm always trimming people's emails down, trying to shortenthem removing fluffy filler words, things like that. The other method,ology, if it is a methodology, is, I don't feel like often enough in some ofthese emails, the actual pain point that people have is mentioned, whichhas never been, it's always been very strange to me. Everybody wants toinclude the messaging in their email about what the hell they do, but nobodycares what you do, unless they believe that they have a problem that somewhatis going to be needed by what you do. So we should probably talk about theproblem somewhere, right? Like let's say john's problem was not enoughpodcast listeners. I'm not going to pitch you in an email about, you know,the caliber and quality of the microphone and sound production. I needto be like, hey john, uh, let's check out your podcast online and looking atthe stats. It's a pretty good showman, but the numbers are a little lower thanI would expect. Why do why do you think that is? I want to get somebody to tellme what's going on, what's going wrong? So mentioning something about theproblem in the pain and some of the emailing, I think it's really, reallyimportant. And then we're on this, I'm operating on this flywheel all the timeof messaging. That's like, tell me what's wrong. I'll help you understandwhy you should care to fix that. Now, let's agree on like, why it'simportant to do something about this right away. And then I'll tell you howwe do it. It's all that simple, right? You want to start a conversation.You're not If you start off selling, you're doing the wrong thing, You wantto start a dialogue, right? Yeah. And I'm always telling people stop pitching.Just start just have a conversation. Yeah, Every why does everything soundsso formal? I don't get it. Maybe it's just me. I'm not, I'm not built thatway at all. Like you, you talk to me like all formal, like I'm tuned out.Just talk to me like a normal person. So then, uh, you know, there's a bigdebate. I love that. I love to help tweak sales decks because everyone Isee always starts off with me, me, me always like, here's how we're founded.There's a back story, here's what we do. I'm like, nobody cares, shouldn't yoube starting with their problem first. It's about them, you tell the storyabout them. Isn't that right? Yes, it's totally right. I'm chuckling over herebecause of all the decks that I've seen recently that have like a, our historyslide and it's like we raised money from so and so and so and so and so andso it's like nobody cares, your prospect doesn't care if you raisemoney from Good Lord, especially especially if you're selling to anaudience that is like not even from the kind of fundraising V C B two B saskind of kind of world. I mean I've seen people selling to small localbusinesses and there's slide decks like We've raised $20 million dollars from,you know, and recent Horowitz, like they don't know who that is, what arewe talking about? I don't understand. And everybody is obsessed with talkingabout, you know, themselves. It's because it's their baby, right? It'stheir baby, they built it. That's why they love talking about it so much orthey've been told they've been handed this tax, they used this tech. So thekey then if we understand that about human psychology that we love to talkabout ourselves more than anything else, why is it so hard for us to apply thatwhen we're selling, all I gotta do is get the prospect to talk aboutthemselves. It it's really straightforward and there's a, there'sa lot of leaders out there that are talking about this, but clearly we'renot getting the message through to the...

...people, they need to hear it the mostwell. And but there's a lot of people who are wrapping some of this stuffstuff up in like big complex, you know, modalities and like methodologies andyou know, I think you're trying to make themselves maybe sound smarter thanthey really are. Like it's just not that complicated. And one of the bestthings you can learn how to do if you're a sales leader is take thispotentially complex problem and product and simplify it and then simplify itagain and again and again until it's just bang, this is what we do, I callit, simplifying your rocket science. Here you go. That's exactly right. Andfounders are always obsessed with their baby. They're like, oh we need to talkabout all 9000 features because all of them are so important. You know, Iactually, just an hour and a half, two hours ago had lunch with uh, one of thefounders of Quality, the last company that I was an operator at. Yeah. And wewere reminiscing about how my first week there, we sat in a roomtogether and we were working on the call your sales pitch. And he wastelling me, you know, there's like 100 features here scott like all of themare important. And I remember I was telling him, Joel, you get to talk about five, that's it.And it was just like, it was like having a root canal for for for him itwas like so painful for him to not be able to talk about certain things. Andit took us a while, but we've got this list of 100 all the way down to fivethings that mattered. And he, you know, he was just telling me today, he waslike, you know, I probably learned more from, from you and one other person atthe company, you know more than anybody else. And that like painful lesson ofsimplifying things was really, really important that you got to be willing todo that. You gotta be willing to do that. If you're founder, if you'reahead of a leader, a sales leader, you got to be able to do that to be able tocommunicate that strip away the fluff from the stuff that really matters themost. There's a reason there's an appendix, there's a reason that youhave a website, right? Yeah, that's where that stuff goes. It's not likeyou don't want to talk about, but there's a time and a place and whenyou're in a sales motion, not exactly the best time. Also important toremember that if somebody wants to know about something, they'll probably ask.All right, let them ask about that. And then you you sound like a geniusbecause you're like, pull this ace out of your back pocket and be like, I gotthat one right here. So true. So we talked about emails a little bit. So,are you a fan? Especially early on when folks are just getting started may not,may may not have some marking automation in place 1-1 emails that arehighly customized versus sending out one too many emails that are lesscustomized, maybe more generic. Are you a proponent of both of one versus theother? I would not say I'm a proponent of one versus the other. I know this isa boring answer of like, but this is what leaders need to hear becausethey're struggling with this and so they need to hear that. It depends,it's a shitty answer, but it depends. Look, you can get away with prettygeneric stuff at scale, depending on who you're selling to. You can't getaway with that if you're selling to a different type of buyer. And the thingto remember when you're just getting started is we don't know what works yet.So part of our job is to figure out in the beginning what works. So if I wasgoing in, I'd probably do a couple highly personalized things. I'dprobably send a few bulky kind of things that are less personalized. I'dprobably send a few messages to new york and I'd send a few to Californiaand I'd send a few to the enterprise and I'd send a few to the SNB and I'dsend a few on this pain point and this other messages on this paint. So I needall this data and then I get a little...

...smarter and then I can optimize what's going todo long term, be most efficient and effective for us. So what you isawesome. So what you just said to another topic, which is experimentation.So what you just described, there was a an experiment. So I personally thinkthat you have to as a sales leader experiment, not only with the conceptthat you talked about, you know, 1-1 versus one too many what you have toexperiment with different channels and figure out how and where you want totalk to that prospect. Right? Yeah. I mean it might not even be about whereyou want to talk to him. It might be more about where they want to talk toyou. If you message me via linked in, I'm going to reply. But news flash, mylinkedin inbox is a shit show. Okay. If you text me, You probably will get areply within 30 minutes regardless of who you are because I'm obsessive aboutthis kind of thing. So you got to meet them where they are. If you're justgoing to market for the first time, you don't know where they are yet. Youdon't know. And each CMO might be different and each VP of sales might bedifferent. Somebody might want to talk on the phone, somebody might want tojust do email. So one of the things that's difficult for sales leaders isthere often under so much pressure to produce results immediately that theydon't feel like they have time to experiment and test these things out.So they go all in on one thing. Yeah. And it might be the wrong thing and itmight not be that the messaging is wrong, it just might be that no cTO ever checks their linkedin messages.And so you've been going at the wrong channel the whole time, right? So youhave to build in experimentation into the process. In the very beginning. Tome, you have to fair enough. So, another thing that I that I get oftenand I have to really try to work to change minds and hearts here is whenyou're bringing in early sales leader. Oftentimes they're taking the smartapproach it, which is experimentation, understanding and then begin to buildthat sales process and that sales playbook, which are sort of theunderpinnings in my mind for how to scale and how to grow. Oftentimesfounders are we know, why do we need that stuff? You're wasting your time onthat stuff? Why can't we just go out and sell you can, you're just not going to sellas well? Right? You know, every, uh, what's the same? Every broken clock isright twice a day. Okay, You can do it that way, but it's just not settingyourself up for success. You've got to be willing to do this dirty work, thisunsexy creation of this playbook. So now you have a foundation and now youcan follow that and replicate that thing to know what's really working andnot and not working. And when you've done this a few times, like I have now,you know what those essential playbook items are. You know how to house themin one kind of repository. So it's easy for you and everybody on the team tofind you know the right kind of formatting and whatnot. And you canbang them out inside of a couple weeks. It doesn't have to take six months tobuild a playbook. You can crank it out in a couple weeks and your job is onlygoing to get harder and more complicated and more stressful as yougrow. So delaying the building of this playbook, you're just accruing a formof technical debt. You're gonna have to go back and pay the piper on this atsome point in time. So it might be more painful to pay the piper when you're attwo million A. R. R. Then when you're at 20,000 so why don't we just set thisthing up to scale right from the start rather than kind of wing it and lateron be like, oh now we got to go back...

...and figure out how to scale it. There'sa good way to looking at things right there. So last last topic is somethingthat uh like you and your friend Richard Harris talked a lot about,which is the concept of discouragement. I don't, I can't think of anotherprofession that runs into failure and rejection as much as as ours. You know,we've talked about baseball Earlier, so if you fail 70% of the time long enoughyou're a hall of famer in baseball. That's right. If you are cold callingAnd fail 70% of the time, it means you have a 30% close rate, which means youare a legend and probably the greatest sales person that's ever lived timeslike 30 Because I grew up in a world where if you close one out of 100 calls,you're a legend. Right? So imagine Steph curry the greatest shooter of alltime, Missing 99 shots out of 100 and being considered the greatest shooterof all time. Like he doesn't deal with that level of rejection. We do, that'sright. So that's, I don't care who you are. It's going to eat away at you. Youknow, we all can think that we're bulletproof to the best, you know, ofour ability. You can do all sorts of health checks and you know, take theright breaks and read the right kind of books on confidence and listen to writepodcast and all this stuff you're gonna get dinged by it. And uh, for me, thekey has always been to not pretend that I'm superhuman and that these thingsdon't affect me. The key for me has been to spend a moment and acknowledgethat I'm being affected by it, process it in a healthy way and then quicklymove on. So I don't dwell on things. I allow myself to feel it. I kind oftalked about it to get it out and then bang, I move on. I think you run intotrouble when you dwell on it and you over analyze it and start to obsessabout it and it just, it's like the dark cloud just hovers around you allthe time. Um, I think too many people do that or too many people just try toshove it down, feel nothing, ignore it and then they snap eventually. Right?And so that's, that's what's worked for me. Is this this like, oh man, I'mfeeling lousier today, right? I'm going to talk about it. Get it out of mysystem. You know, 2012-24-hour rule. You're not allowed to power for morethan 12-24 hours, then it's we gotta get after. Right. So where didI see this? You said the Excuse Factory has been closed for a while. ExcuseFactory has been closed for a long time. I don't remember where I I use thisExcuse factory quote like 10 plus years ago, probably. But uh, it's catching ona little bit now. I think it's I think it's a little catchy. I might have todo something with that title. Yeah. Do do like a Wednesday night, Wednesdaynight. Excuse factories connection. Your your nights are going to bebooking to have time to go to baseball games. Yeah, maybe that'll be my nextbook. The Excuse Factory. There you go. Well, so this has been fantastic. So,what is the best way of folks want to connect with you? What's the best wayto do that linkedin? Yeah. Just on like a, you know, reach out kind of casualbasis, Lincoln is probably the easiest place you can find me every thursdaynight at thursday night sales dot com. And uh, if you want to know more aboutkind of what I do on a consulting and advisory basis, you know, check outscott least consulting dot com and you can see some of the people that Iworked with and some of the things that I, that I do. And, uh, I reply toeverybody. So shoot me a note and if I can be helpful, I'd love to try.Awesome. Thank you so much for taking the time scott. Really appreciated andcontinued success to thanks so much, john Thanks so thank you to everyonefor listening to this episode of the...

...revenue series on the GDP growth show.I'm your host, Jon crispin, founder and sales coach at Early revenue and untilnext time I am out. Mhm. Mhm. Are you an early stage tech founderthat's frustrated by limited sales? Do you lack the time to dedicate to atraditional sales training program? John Grisham's Early revenue salesprogram helps early stage founders accelerate sales in large accounts.He's built a playbook that transfers what he's learned as a founder andsales later into a condensed, easy to implement programs. If you're ready toincrease your startup sales capacity, visit early revenue dot com to getstarted today. One of the things we've learned aboutpodcast audience growth is that word of mouth works. It works really, reallywell actually. So if you love this show, it would be awesome if you texted afriend to tell them about it. And if you send me a text with a screenshot ofthe text you sent to your friend meta, I know I'll send you a copy of my book,content based networking how to instantly connect with anyone you wantto know. My cell phone number is 40749033 to 8. Happy texting. Mhm.

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