B2B Growth: Your Daily B2B Marketing Podcast
B2B Growth: Your Daily B2B Marketing Podcast

Episode 2058 · 11 months ago

The Do’s & Don’ts of Scaling Your Sales Organization

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

Everyone wants to scale their business…

But without empowering your sales leaders and setting realistic goals, you never will.

In this episode of B2B Growth, Host John Grispon speaks with Scott Leese, CEO & Founder of Scott Leese Consulting, about the lessons he’s learned from a career spent building and scaling sales organizations for tech startups.

What we talked about:

  • The mindset needed for scaling successfully and repeatedly
  • Why founders need to do a better job of setting sales up for success
  • The only 3 metrics that really matter

    You can find this interview, and many more, by subscribing to the B2B Growth Show on Apple Podcasts, on our website, or on Spotify.

Yeah, Welcome to the Revenue series on the BdB growth show. I'm your host, Jon crispin, founder and sales coach at Early Revenue. Today I am here, I have a very special guests. Super excited to have a conversation with him, scott lise. Welcome. Oh, thanks so much john I'm excited to be here talking with you. So just what a list of accomplishments, you know, if somebody asked me to describe you, I would say prolific sales guy, efficient, amazing, amazingly efficient person with his time. Super helpful and unique are the fourth and, and I guess lastly your san Francisco Giants fan. Big one, if I remember correctly, A huge one. Although today I have my A's hat on because we've days have won 10 in a row. So I'm, I'm having a really good start to the baseball season as the Giants have the second best record in baseball. The A's are in first place. So it's been a good april john well you're talking to a Cardinals fan. So sorry about that. Offline will have to reminisce about the playoff game in the rain. Oh man. Which was a glorious day for me. Maybe not so much for you. Not so much welcome anyway. And so let's let's level set everyone. Our guests are ceos revenue leaders and venture firms. And our goal is to share with early stage tech founders and their sales leaders, insights and best practices on really two topics that are top of mind For most leaders, the how 2s of growing early stage revenues and fundraising. So once again, thanks for being here rather than go through your list of of accomplishments and everything that you do. Maybe just give the folks just a little bit of a highlight of what you do and how you do it. Yeah, I mean, I spent about 16 years or so building and scaling sales organizations for tech startups All across the country. But I spent the first half of my career living in the San Francisco Bay area. And about 10 years ago I moved to austin texas. The last company that I was an operator at is a property tech company called Qala. That's worth a couple billion dollars right now. So check that unicorn box of mine, my list if you will and I've spent the last year and a half running a couple of different businesses. But my, my main business is uh, around my own consulting firm, Scotland's consulting and uh, I'm sort of as a strategic advisor to founders and heads of sales, primarily those companies in this sort of 0 to 25 million are our stage because that's what I've done my whole career is like I'm the guy you call, when you got a good idea and you don't know how to sell it or scale it. I'm that guy. So I work with anywhere from 8 to 10 companies at a time all around the world and help them build out their playbook and hire the right people. And yeah just serve as a resource to help them help them grow awesome. And so we've got the right guy to talk with. So let's imagine, you know, like our audience is a bunch of early stage founders. Let's say there's 1000 of them out there. They're hungry, they're eager, their first time founders and they've got a good product, they've got 10 to 12 winds. They looks like they found product market fit, they are founder led selling and maybe looking to bring on their first sales leader a couple of million in a. R. R. So often times you've got far more experience than the founder does. and so we're looking for insights and best practices and examples that you've seen over time. Let's let's first of all you have a very full life, you're a founder of your own company, your own consulting group. How are you getting all of it in? How do you balance doing what you do during the day with the rest of your life? Well number one it should be noted that I'm a bit of a workaholic. I don't do well just like parking it on the couch and watching college football all day long on the weekend. Like that's not my not my thing so I like to stay busy. So you know I I run my consulting business. I...

...run surfing sales which is another business. I run thursday night sales which is another business. I run the University of Sales which is another business. one of the things that I have gotten good at is doing a task and then moving quickly and starting the next task and I think that what a lot of people do is they work on a task, they finish it and then they immediately take a break of some sort. So when I hit the zone, you know, whatever that zone looks like, right, like when you're in the urine, the flow john like whether it's, you know, you're cranking on writing project or editing things or just making cold calls, whatever, like when I'm in that zone, I try to stay in that zone for as long as possible. You know, that's not to say that I don't take a break throughout the day, but I think some people work in like 20 to 30 minute sprints. My friends are like 2 to 3 hours and then I'll go for a walk or whatever. And then when I get back, I move quickly again when I get back in it. And so I just try to be like really, really present with whatever I'm working on with an aim towards getting something done. I'm a very action oriented person. I'm not a perfectionist, which I think is a blessing. I think it's actually a curse to be a perfectionist. I also don't over analyze things. So if you and I were having a conversation and we hit on some sort of good idea, I'd start working on it as soon as we're done. And you know, I tease my buddy, Richard Harris about this all the time. He's like, he'll have this idea and I'm like, you're gonna do something about that. He says, no, I don't have time. And like 48 hours later I've monetized it. He gets all pissed off at me. I'm like, you got to optimize for action, not ideas. So the degree that we can kind of shrink that delta between idea and action is really, really important. And so I think that, that, that will be extra efficient. I don't know, you know how much of a like hackers secret that is, but that's just how I'm kind of moving all the time. Well, it's an interesting approach because you're getting everything in that you want to get in. You have a number of balls in the air, you know, add in tequila Tuesdays to all of that, right? Don't forget that. Um, and you've written a couple of books, so you've got plenty going on. How are you also taking time? Because I know you're a huge advocate of growth, of personal learning, of making sure that you're, you've got a mentor or someone to be an aide or or a teacher in your life, how you allowing for that and how would you recommend for for those that are just getting started out to engage like that. I paid a lot of attention to who I surround myself with And this has kind of been my thing for 20 plus years so now, so you know, when you talk about like who do you learn from or balance ideas off of like these are people that I text or email or talk to every single day. So there's never, it's not like a scheduled thing, like once a week scott talks to his coach, I'm talking about like, you know what I mean, Like I'm text messaging, Jon Baril is at midnight, Right? And like Kevin Dorsey is messaging me at 6:00 AM, Justin Wells is asking me about this and you know, all these, all these people that are like in the kind of the same circuit, like I'm communicating with very smart people who often times have been at this longer than me who sometimes are more successful than me, I'm communicating with them all the time. Those people that I talked to that serves as a ton of motivation. Whenever I think of myself as trying to get lazy, I have conversations with these kind of people who are also doing a million things and I'm like, well you gotta get off your ass, you gotta, you gotta get moving right. And I, while I do work really hard and don't slow down all that much, You know, every day of...

...the week, I'm taking my kids to practice is taking my kids to sporting games including the weekends. I mean a couple weeks ago, John, I spent nine hours on Saturday and 15 hours on Sunday at the Little League field for this baseball tournament. Right? So well when my kid is warming up before the game, I'm in my car, I have my laptop there, I've got spotted and I'm doing work in my car rather than taking a nap or shooting it with other parents or whatever. I'm finding ways to sneak things in and sneak in productivity And so, you know, to me that's harmonious to other people, it might not feel that way. But when you were in the office for 16 years working 12 hours a day in the office managing hundreds of people like I was doing this Is like one big vacation by comparison. It's a lot less stressful. Yeah. And I certainly feel free. I've got three little ones and they're, the oldest is just, is almost eight. And so he's getting to that place now we're having to go to the fields and the ballparks and everything. So I'm with you on that. So you've got I don't know if it balances the right description but you're getting it all in. You you're learning where you can you're fitting that in and you also seemed to also allocate time to give back and to help others. You know I just saw the other day on a post that you are responding to 250 some D. M. S. And I know how much work that you do to post jobs because people are either going from working with you to wanting to bring on someone full time. You've even talked to me about those things. You're even having time to give back. Well it depends what we define as kickback. Okay so I mean it's really important to me too, trying to be as helpful as possible. I don't have like uh, core values or mission statement or anything fancy like this. Um this is again an example of me, like not getting hung up in the details and just getting shit done. But it's really important to me to send the elevator back down. If you know my story, I I spent four years in the hospital fighting for my life in my early 20s. I never even had a job until I was 27 years old because of my health challenges. And you know, at some point, the very first, you know, co founder gave me a chance and hired me and was like, I don't know who you are, you've never done anything. But there's something about you that I think will be good and so I would never be where I am today if that person wouldn't have given me a chance. So I have a soft spot for people who have been through hell and back and who are, you know, just looking for some help, looking for a guide, whatever you want to call it. So I prioritize all this stuff but don't get it completely twisted. It's not like I'm a pure philanthropist, like I find ways to help people and then in a sense, like marry some passions of mine between helping people and community and traveling and surfing in ways that also become profitable for me. I think that you're getting a win win there, you're helping people and you're doing something for yourself. You always have been this advocate of the individual first before the company, right? Yes, I wouldn't say I always have been because I got stung by that a few times early on in my career. Over the years, I evolved this kind of mindset, you know, and my job, I've always felt as a leader. If you were one of my reps, john, my job is to help you get wherever it is you want to go next. And if that's somewhere with me, great, if you've, you know, outperformed your contract, so to speak and you have a better offer somewhere else, I'm happy for you more power to off you go. That's my job. And I've always been frustrated by people who...

...run companies who say, oh, everything has to be about, you know, the company only and you can't do any of this thing on the side. And that's like what that is like an outlandish sentence from somebody who stands to make, you know, nine figures or more when they're a founder and you're talking to other people who are making 75 K - 150 K primarily in sales rules. That doesn't make sense. And so I'm always advocating for people to learn more working skills, grow, network more, build your brand, put your own content out there, diversify your income streams, create stuff, right? And eventually, you know, kind of get to a place where maybe you can cut the cord and take control of your own life and your own income and that type of thing. So it's a big part of what I do and, you know, it takes a lot of time and energy to respond to all those, but that's become a little bit of like who I am and my brand and and how I candidly like try to separate myself from other people out there because how many other people out there are going to respond to all those messages? I don't know, but I want to be, I want to be known as the one who does. It is certainly rare. I've been out and about for a little while and uh, I could say that it's rare. That's uh, I think I called it earlier. I said unique and I stick with that. So a question for you on one question on funding. So you're part of uh, the GTM fund with max and others. So you, you're familiar with that side of it, the equation as well. So I'm sure you see plenty of founders come through and pitch. What's one thing that you would like to see founders start doing that? They're not today? I think what I would like to see them doing is start setting up their sales leaders for success a little better. What I mean by that is a few things. Let's have some slightly more realistic expectations around our growth. Let's have a little bit more humane Treatment and and stop kicking people to the curb after 12-18 months. I think the average life span of a VPs like 16 months now, which has dropped from 18 months, the number I heard before that that is not very much time, especially if you're in some kind of mid market or, or enterprise sales motion. That's like one sales cycle. That's really, really, it's really tough. Let's get them a coach or let's get them an advisor, let's get them a mentor of some sort, you know, because we founders are tending to optimize for one of two types of candidates, the person who's been there 100 times before and done it, or the person who is super cheap and has never done it ever before. And we're hoping they can kind of grow into it. Well, the people who are super cheap and younger in their career that you're betting on Good Lord, let's empower them and give them at least the best chance to succeed, hire them an advisor or a coach, let them purchase modern selling tools that help their team perform, you know, all of this kind of stuff. And then, um, the last one, maybe a little bit controversial, but get the hell out of their way, get out of their way. I understand that founders often made a few sales and I think maybe they haven't figured out how to how to sell the product, but there's a big difference between making a couple founder led sales and coming up with a repeatable scalable pitch and process that you can teach to a bunch of people who don't care about the industry or frankly the product as much as you do. Right? So how can you expect a sales leader to come in and do their job if you're all up in their business, telling them how to do how to do that all the time. Right? So hire them, support them, empower them, get out of their way a little bit, let them do their job. And, uh, I, I wish we'd see more of that. So if they're in the process of, hey, all right, I got to...

...turn this over. I've done enough of this. I think it's time for me to bring somebody in. Uh, who would you recommend? Typically as a first higher? Do you see it more appropriate just to bring in a salesperson to start to take over that first full time hire? Or do you bring in a sales leader and then let them do the hiring or let them do the work initially. What's your sense? Sure, it's different everywhere. It kind of depends on the situation. There is either the there's either the methodology where you start with, you know, on the rep side and then bringing the leader or you start with the leader and then bring in the reps. The problem that I have with starting with the website is that a lot of people just pick one rep and one rep is not enough to figure out what works or what doesn't work If you're gonna hire reps to start with, you gotta hire three. I don't care what we're selling. It doesn't matter to me You hire three reps. One of them is probably going to be pretty good. One of them will be man will be okay. Probably coach them up, keep them stick around for a little while and one of them won't get it and we'll kind of flame out really quick. There's a lot of learning and that, that I need to have, I need to try to figure out well which type of person made it, in, which type of person shaped what caused this person to shank. And I don't learn that fast enough with just one person. Those people, if you just hire one person, they're not competing against anybody else, right? They're not sharing learnings with anybody else. They're just in a silo doing this on their own. So if you're going to start with the reps and then you got to hire three, what I would prefer people do Is find the leader 1st, have the leader be the person to work on the messaging and the process and all that kind of stuff and then prove it out and test it. Meaning if you hire me are going to get in and write the script, I got to figure out who I'm gonna call. I gotta start making calls, I gotta start sending emails, I gotta build pipeline. I gotta close the deal or two. I gotta make tweaks and changes basically what's working and what's not working now. I've learned all this stuff and if I've executed on it now, now I have confidence to go to you, john the founder and say, hey, I think I got this dialed in. It's time for me to hire. I would rather do it that way. It can be done either way, but I would rather start with the the leader and then bring in the, the rest. So it sounds like you're an advocate of bringing that sales leaders so that they can start to establish sort of the set of core elements the fundamentals for how to scale that organization and let him let that person he or she rolled up her sleeves, get their hands dirty in a way, be that player coach for a little while to start to understand it from the core and then you build from there. Yeah, I want I want my sales leader too have sold the product before and therefore be the best salesperson in the company at that product for a little while. You know, if you have a couple reps and you bring the sales person in later, don't underestimate how hard it is to enter a team situation somehow have to learn the culture, learn the pitch in the process, learn these egos that I'm now managing, gain their respect, right? It's a it's a trickier situation. Not that it can't be done. The last company that I was at as an operator, Kuala, there was three sales reps in there when I got there. None of them had ever made a deal, None of them. So I got there. I spent two weeks with the founders rewrote kind of the messaging and the approach rolled it out to the reps, got in the trenches with them. So there was four of us basically calling and emailing The first month that we did this together, we closed 18 deals. So we went from nothing to 18 deals. When once we did that, I was like, I got to pull the ripcord. I'm not going to make any more calls. It's time like this has proven itself. I'm gonna repeat it with just those three with me, coaching them and me kind of working on...

...some other projects on the side. They closed 19 deals, month two. And we're like, it's game on And you know, boom now we hire 10 more people, you got that group to work, then we hired 20 people. Boom, you get that group to work and off and off you go. But that was, that's hard for me. It was hard for me to show up and be like high rep A B and C. I'm gonna teach you how to sell this thing. And they're like, well what do you mean? Uh we've already been trying to sell it and I'm like, yeah, all due respect. You haven't closed the deal yet, so you don't really know how it's a challenge. It would have been easier for me to just be the first one in there, I think. Yeah. So you mentioned something interesting, you know, one of the things, one of the recommendations you said for founder was Get the hell out of the way, once you're you're you're bringing in a sales leader. And I think part of that is that that leader needs to begin to form that sales culture. And I'm curious what you think the key elements are for bringing in that positive selling culture. I presume that it's something that has something to do with coaching, but curious how you frame it. Yeah, I I just frame it as um the team needs to believe that you're in it to help them succeed period. We don't care about the number, I only care about the number because that's what it takes to get you paid. I'm only pestering you about the pipeline because I want you to have enough in there, so you get paid. I'm only working with you on these particular skills because that's what you're going to need in order for you to get paid and move up. I'm only having this conversation with you about how not to be rude to the product team because I want you to figure out out company politics. So eventually you can move your way up the corporate ladder one day. Like what is a barrier or an obstacle that is in front of you that I can remove out of your way. That's the foundation to me for building a healthy sales team, healthy sales culture. Once that's established now I have, I have some trust and some rope to be like, hey john a little lazy this week buddy, come on, right. And I can kind of poke the bear a little bit in a playful ish way, But, but you're okay with it because you know, I've been doing everything in my power to help you. Right? That's where it starts. I think you mentioned pay. So let's, let's talk about cop. It's been my experience that founders don't really understand how to compensate its sales leader or in a, or an SDR for that matter. We don't have to go into an actual numbers. But what is a lot, what's a logical percent for these types of roles? 50 50 for a sales leader? Well, I'm a big believer in 5050 regardless of role. So if you're an SDR and you're getting paid 50 k base, I think you should have 100 kot. If you're an 80 and you have an 80 K base, I think you should have 100 and 60 ot fierce sales DP and you've got 100 and $50,000 base. I think you should have a 300 K. zero. T. A long long time ago, somebody said to me, you're calm plants should be so simple. You can explain it to your significant other in less than a minute and they understand it. And if it's more complicated than that, you've stopped writing your company and I tried to abide by that to the best of my ability for a long time. Now Significant other. I've tried to explain it to a 12 year old. That was that was my that was my goal. But a 12 year I'll understand it. I don't want to compare the two myself. A little bit of hot water could be similar depending on uh, circuit the circumstances. Yeah. Well, so, so let's let's keep going since we're talking about numbers, Let's talk about metrics.

Most of these organizations, we're talking about our tech companies. SaAS companies. The SAs metrics are one thing. And let's let's push that aside, right? Because Leaders care about that stuff. But a lot of times, especially in the early the 0-25 million space. Some of that stuff may or may not apply. Just kind of depends on where you're at. So let's talk about the metrics that a sales leader cares about and then a and that a real that a founder should care about when he's talking to and prepping for that board meeting. This is an interesting topic because you can get carried away in any set of numbers, but there's really only a couple of things that that matter. Obviously the volume of deals meaning the number of unique deals you've closed the revenue. So how much money is that on every deal? The overall size of your pipeline compared to what your quota is? That is to me the most important number. Most people would tell you you need to have a 3-1 ratio And that might be true. I'm that maniacal Paranoid person. That's like I need to have 10-1. Really? Yeah, because I'm so paranoid that I think I'm bound to lose unless I have a massively right, that's just how I'm built that way. You know, they always, I played soccer for a long time and the most dangerous leading soccer is 20, you relax, you can relax a little bit, right? You're up 20, you run the risk of relaxing a little bit, you give up one goal and all of a sudden you're like, oh right, the game is on edge, the rest of the way you give up too and you're tied and all of a sudden you're like, oh my God, we just blew a 20 lead and before you know what, you're giving up the third. So this 3-1 pipeline ratio, it's not enough for me. I want to trip and fall into my number. So I'm always thinking, how can I get us to 10? Right, so if our goal for the month is 100,000, I want $1 million dollar pipeline, yep. Now 10 x pipeline to quote a number is really, really hard. Damn near impossible. Impossible. Depending on on what you're, what you're selling enterprise sells. That's particularly hard. Right, okay, so you didn't get to 10, but maybe you got to four instead of three, right? You got to five instead of three and every bit helps mission accomplished, right? What you're doing is you're stacking the deck in your favor. That to me is the most important number. That's a big leading indicator of of our performance. Um and so it's really just about those couple numbers to me if I really wanted to steal it down to its most basic form, There's 100 other numbers that we could look at. But that's what I want to know. What's the size of our pipeline? How many unique deals is that? And what's the revenue on those deals? Fair enough. Yeah. Simple. Clean. I like it. And what more, I mean, there are other data points to look at. But that pipe should tell the story that you're looking to tell. Right? Yeah. It's gonna I mean, if you are think of it this way, if your pipeline is that big or somewhere near that big, if you're doing really well, you now can report Yeah. And look at the size of our pipeline, we're going to keep doing really well if you're not doing that great, you have an easy story to tell that's like, yeah, but look at our pipeline, it's coming. So you're buying yourself time either way. It's true. Yeah, that's a great point. So earlier you mentioned helping teams work on messaging, you've done a bit of that. And so, you know, it's important that that messaging make its way into the content. And one of the early ways that sales teams look to deliver their message is in outbound...

...sequences and in sales dex. How do you, is there a methodology or an approach that you take to helping teams create great messaging? Simple, effective messaging? Well, I wouldn't say that I have a methodology, but I definitely subscribe to the less is more theory. So I feel like I'm always trimming people's emails down, trying to shorten them removing fluffy filler words, things like that. The other method, ology, if it is a methodology, is, I don't feel like often enough in some of these emails, the actual pain point that people have is mentioned, which has never been, it's always been very strange to me. Everybody wants to include the messaging in their email about what the hell they do, but nobody cares what you do, unless they believe that they have a problem that somewhat is going to be needed by what you do. So we should probably talk about the problem somewhere, right? Like let's say john's problem was not enough podcast listeners. I'm not going to pitch you in an email about, you know, the caliber and quality of the microphone and sound production. I need to be like, hey john, uh, let's check out your podcast online and looking at the stats. It's a pretty good showman, but the numbers are a little lower than I would expect. Why do why do you think that is? I want to get somebody to tell me what's going on, what's going wrong? So mentioning something about the problem in the pain and some of the emailing, I think it's really, really important. And then we're on this, I'm operating on this flywheel all the time of messaging. That's like, tell me what's wrong. I'll help you understand why you should care to fix that. Now, let's agree on like, why it's important to do something about this right away. And then I'll tell you how we do it. It's all that simple, right? You want to start a conversation. You're not If you start off selling, you're doing the wrong thing, You want to start a dialogue, right? Yeah. And I'm always telling people stop pitching. Just start just have a conversation. Yeah, Every why does everything sounds so formal? I don't get it. Maybe it's just me. I'm not, I'm not built that way at all. Like you, you talk to me like all formal, like I'm tuned out. Just talk to me like a normal person. So then, uh, you know, there's a big debate. I love that. I love to help tweak sales decks because everyone I see always starts off with me, me, me always like, here's how we're founded. There's a back story, here's what we do. I'm like, nobody cares, shouldn't you be starting with their problem first. It's about them, you tell the story about them. Isn't that right? Yes, it's totally right. I'm chuckling over here because of all the decks that I've seen recently that have like a, our history slide and it's like we raised money from so and so and so and so and so and so it's like nobody cares, your prospect doesn't care if you raise money from Good Lord, especially especially if you're selling to an audience that is like not even from the kind of fundraising V C B two B sas kind of kind of world. I mean I've seen people selling to small local businesses and there's slide decks like We've raised $20 million dollars from, you know, and recent Horowitz, like they don't know who that is, what are we talking about? I don't understand. And everybody is obsessed with talking about, you know, themselves. It's because it's their baby, right? It's their baby, they built it. That's why they love talking about it so much or they've been told they've been handed this tax, they used this tech. So the key then if we understand that about human psychology that we love to talk about ourselves more than anything else, why is it so hard for us to apply that when we're selling, all I gotta do is get the prospect to talk about themselves. It it's really straightforward and there's a, there's a lot of leaders out there that are talking about this, but clearly we're not getting the message through to the...

...people, they need to hear it the most well. And but there's a lot of people who are wrapping some of this stuff stuff up in like big complex, you know, modalities and like methodologies and you know, I think you're trying to make themselves maybe sound smarter than they really are. Like it's just not that complicated. And one of the best things you can learn how to do if you're a sales leader is take this potentially complex problem and product and simplify it and then simplify it again and again and again until it's just bang, this is what we do, I call it, simplifying your rocket science. Here you go. That's exactly right. And founders are always obsessed with their baby. They're like, oh we need to talk about all 9000 features because all of them are so important. You know, I actually, just an hour and a half, two hours ago had lunch with uh, one of the founders of Quality, the last company that I was an operator at. Yeah. And we were reminiscing about how my first week there, we sat in a room together and we were working on the call your sales pitch. And he was telling me, you know, there's like 100 features here scott like all of them are important. And I remember I was telling him, Joel, you get to talk about five, that's it. And it was just like, it was like having a root canal for for for him it was like so painful for him to not be able to talk about certain things. And it took us a while, but we've got this list of 100 all the way down to five things that mattered. And he, you know, he was just telling me today, he was like, you know, I probably learned more from, from you and one other person at the company, you know more than anybody else. And that like painful lesson of simplifying things was really, really important that you got to be willing to do that. You gotta be willing to do that. If you're founder, if you're ahead of a leader, a sales leader, you got to be able to do that to be able to communicate that strip away the fluff from the stuff that really matters the most. There's a reason there's an appendix, there's a reason that you have a website, right? Yeah, that's where that stuff goes. It's not like you don't want to talk about, but there's a time and a place and when you're in a sales motion, not exactly the best time. Also important to remember that if somebody wants to know about something, they'll probably ask. All right, let them ask about that. And then you you sound like a genius because you're like, pull this ace out of your back pocket and be like, I got that one right here. So true. So we talked about emails a little bit. So, are you a fan? Especially early on when folks are just getting started may not, may may not have some marking automation in place 1-1 emails that are highly customized versus sending out one too many emails that are less customized, maybe more generic. Are you a proponent of both of one versus the other? I would not say I'm a proponent of one versus the other. I know this is a boring answer of like, but this is what leaders need to hear because they're struggling with this and so they need to hear that. It depends, it's a shitty answer, but it depends. Look, you can get away with pretty generic stuff at scale, depending on who you're selling to. You can't get away with that if you're selling to a different type of buyer. And the thing to remember when you're just getting started is we don't know what works yet. So part of our job is to figure out in the beginning what works. So if I was going in, I'd probably do a couple highly personalized things. I'd probably send a few bulky kind of things that are less personalized. I'd probably send a few messages to new york and I'd send a few to California and I'd send a few to the enterprise and I'd send a few to the SNB and I'd send a few on this pain point and this other messages on this paint. So I need all this data and then I get a little...

...smarter and then I can optimize what's going to do long term, be most efficient and effective for us. So what you is awesome. So what you just said to another topic, which is experimentation. So what you just described, there was a an experiment. So I personally think that you have to as a sales leader experiment, not only with the concept that you talked about, you know, 1-1 versus one too many what you have to experiment with different channels and figure out how and where you want to talk to that prospect. Right? Yeah. I mean it might not even be about where you want to talk to him. It might be more about where they want to talk to you. If you message me via linked in, I'm going to reply. But news flash, my linkedin inbox is a shit show. Okay. If you text me, You probably will get a reply within 30 minutes regardless of who you are because I'm obsessive about this kind of thing. So you got to meet them where they are. If you're just going to market for the first time, you don't know where they are yet. You don't know. And each CMO might be different and each VP of sales might be different. Somebody might want to talk on the phone, somebody might want to just do email. So one of the things that's difficult for sales leaders is there often under so much pressure to produce results immediately that they don't feel like they have time to experiment and test these things out. So they go all in on one thing. Yeah. And it might be the wrong thing and it might not be that the messaging is wrong, it just might be that no cTO ever checks their linkedin messages. And so you've been going at the wrong channel the whole time, right? So you have to build in experimentation into the process. In the very beginning. To me, you have to fair enough. So, another thing that I that I get often and I have to really try to work to change minds and hearts here is when you're bringing in early sales leader. Oftentimes they're taking the smart approach it, which is experimentation, understanding and then begin to build that sales process and that sales playbook, which are sort of the underpinnings in my mind for how to scale and how to grow. Oftentimes founders are we know, why do we need that stuff? You're wasting your time on that stuff? Why can't we just go out and sell you can, you're just not going to sell as well? Right? You know, every, uh, what's the same? Every broken clock is right twice a day. Okay, You can do it that way, but it's just not setting yourself up for success. You've got to be willing to do this dirty work, this unsexy creation of this playbook. So now you have a foundation and now you can follow that and replicate that thing to know what's really working and not and not working. And when you've done this a few times, like I have now, you know what those essential playbook items are. You know how to house them in one kind of repository. So it's easy for you and everybody on the team to find you know the right kind of formatting and whatnot. And you can bang them out inside of a couple weeks. It doesn't have to take six months to build a playbook. You can crank it out in a couple weeks and your job is only going to get harder and more complicated and more stressful as you grow. So delaying the building of this playbook, you're just accruing a form of technical debt. You're gonna have to go back and pay the piper on this at some point in time. So it might be more painful to pay the piper when you're at two million A. R. R. Then when you're at 20,000 so why don't we just set this thing up to scale right from the start rather than kind of wing it and later on be like, oh now we got to go back...

...and figure out how to scale it. There's a good way to looking at things right there. So last last topic is something that uh like you and your friend Richard Harris talked a lot about, which is the concept of discouragement. I don't, I can't think of another profession that runs into failure and rejection as much as as ours. You know, we've talked about baseball Earlier, so if you fail 70% of the time long enough you're a hall of famer in baseball. That's right. If you are cold calling And fail 70% of the time, it means you have a 30% close rate, which means you are a legend and probably the greatest sales person that's ever lived times like 30 Because I grew up in a world where if you close one out of 100 calls, you're a legend. Right? So imagine Steph curry the greatest shooter of all time, Missing 99 shots out of 100 and being considered the greatest shooter of all time. Like he doesn't deal with that level of rejection. We do, that's right. So that's, I don't care who you are. It's going to eat away at you. You know, we all can think that we're bulletproof to the best, you know, of our ability. You can do all sorts of health checks and you know, take the right breaks and read the right kind of books on confidence and listen to write podcast and all this stuff you're gonna get dinged by it. And uh, for me, the key has always been to not pretend that I'm superhuman and that these things don't affect me. The key for me has been to spend a moment and acknowledge that I'm being affected by it, process it in a healthy way and then quickly move on. So I don't dwell on things. I allow myself to feel it. I kind of talked about it to get it out and then bang, I move on. I think you run into trouble when you dwell on it and you over analyze it and start to obsess about it and it just, it's like the dark cloud just hovers around you all the time. Um, I think too many people do that or too many people just try to shove it down, feel nothing, ignore it and then they snap eventually. Right? And so that's, that's what's worked for me. Is this this like, oh man, I'm feeling lousier today, right? I'm going to talk about it. Get it out of my system. You know, 2012-24-hour rule. You're not allowed to power for more than 12-24 hours, then it's we gotta get after. Right. So where did I see this? You said the Excuse Factory has been closed for a while. Excuse Factory has been closed for a long time. I don't remember where I I use this Excuse factory quote like 10 plus years ago, probably. But uh, it's catching on a little bit now. I think it's I think it's a little catchy. I might have to do something with that title. Yeah. Do do like a Wednesday night, Wednesday night. Excuse factories connection. Your your nights are going to be booking to have time to go to baseball games. Yeah, maybe that'll be my next book. The Excuse Factory. There you go. Well, so this has been fantastic. So, what is the best way of folks want to connect with you? What's the best way to do that linkedin? Yeah. Just on like a, you know, reach out kind of casual basis, Lincoln is probably the easiest place you can find me every thursday night at thursday night sales dot com. And uh, if you want to know more about kind of what I do on a consulting and advisory basis, you know, check out scott least consulting dot com and you can see some of the people that I worked with and some of the things that I, that I do. And, uh, I reply to everybody. So shoot me a note and if I can be helpful, I'd love to try. Awesome. Thank you so much for taking the time scott. Really appreciated and continued success to thanks so much, john Thanks so thank you to everyone for listening to this episode of the...

...revenue series on the GDP growth show. I'm your host, Jon crispin, founder and sales coach at Early revenue and until next time I am out. Mhm. Mhm. Are you an early stage tech founder that's frustrated by limited sales? Do you lack the time to dedicate to a traditional sales training program? John Grisham's Early revenue sales program helps early stage founders accelerate sales in large accounts. He's built a playbook that transfers what he's learned as a founder and sales later into a condensed, easy to implement programs. If you're ready to increase your startup sales capacity, visit early revenue dot com to get started today. One of the things we've learned about podcast audience growth is that word of mouth works. It works really, really well actually. So if you love this show, it would be awesome if you texted a friend to tell them about it. And if you send me a text with a screenshot of the text you sent to your friend meta, I know I'll send you a copy of my book, content based networking how to instantly connect with anyone you want to know. My cell phone number is 40749033 to 8. Happy texting. Mhm.

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