The Best Book I've Read On Branding with Patrick Hanlon

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

In this episode, Dan Sanchez talks with Patrick Hanlon about his book Primal Branding and how it has changed the way Dan approaches branding for companies, products, and people. 

It provides a clear framework on how to inject meaning and weight into your brand so that it can be more than a logo.

Welcome back to G. D. P. Growth. I'm dan Sanchez with Sweet fish media and today I'm talking to Patrick Hanlon who is the author of primal branding and the ceo of Primal branding co Patrick, welcome to the show, hey thanks for having me to be here. I've been looking forward to this episode for a long time because your book has been one of the best books that I've read in awhile and I read a lot of books on business. I read a lot of books on marketing before reading primal branding. It was certainly branding was just an ambiguous term. People meant different things. You're like, are we talking about logos, colors, emotion stories, what are we talking about and everyone had a different view. I wasn't to tell this, I was like oh it was finally like it gave me a playbook, not that it's easy but it gave me a playbook and actually to address what is a strong brand versus a non strong brand and how to take a brand that's just shallow and turn it into something really robust and meaty. So I'm looking forward to covering giving some highlights of the book but also asking you some questions for our audience On how to use the primal branding system, what you call the primal brand in order to build better brands for their B- two B companies. Great, hopefully we're making it easier, it's not easy but it's easier B two C brands have certainly led the charge when it comes to what good branding can look like and B. Two B has always been catching up. But lately it seems like B two B brands have started to do some great things out there, but it's still few and far between and or B. Two B leaders are still looking for how to make their business brands stronger and resonate more deeply with their their target audiences. So I was really looking forward to interviewing you to get some more of this content in front of the audience. Yeah, I think actually the the difference between B two B and B two C was, I don't know if it was artificial in the first place or not, but it's certainly the lines have blurred a little bit as people become more, here we are, we're sitting in our home offices and working from home and we're constantly on our phones checking things out etcetera etcetera. And so I think that the lines have blurred between B two B and real life. And in the case of using primal it's definitely there's no difference. So we look at things as how do you brand people places and things and if it's a person, it's whether you're Elon musk or it's you or Justin Bieber or something like that places, it could be a geographic place, like a country, the U. S. Or France or something or it could be Disney land or Disney world and in terms of things, certainly products and services of course, but also things like concepts like gravity, like why do we all believe in gravity or Cryptocurrency is a new one that's out there or coronavirus for that matter. So why do we believe in these things? So they all have the same routes. It brings me back to one of my favorite term or quotes in the book and I had to under light and highlighted because it became it was the big change in aha for me was when you said brands, our belief systems. Once you look at a brand like a belief system and automatically gains the advantage is that enterprise strives for trust, vibrancy, empathy, commitment. Yeah. It's the thing that people spend so much money on all their marketing efforts are toward trying to I don't want to say superficially, but in a in a slim way, let's say create vision and values and trust and efficacy and community and customers And and we don't really know, especially in B2B, I would say, but also in consumer packaged goods and so forth. Any also maybe to a lesser extent, but we really the subject of branding has always been like molding...

...fog, I'd like to say. And if you ask 100 people what is the brand, you get 100 different answers. And nowhere else in marketing or advertising industry, do we let something go that is not measured, right? It does not is not measured or that that effort didn't marketing effort didn't work. Sorry, let's try something else, zig and Zag and I just thought that was ridiculous. And I had a client project that I was working on and I started to wonder to myself or what really separates the, what are the powerful brands doing? Is there any kind of pattern that's in there? And of course, my first thing I thought of was, well, they all have a logo. And then I started thinking well along right underneath that logo is their theme or creed as they ultimately called it. They all have a leave ceo or someone else, a steve jobs or Elon musk or something. Ellen really wasn't around at that time. But the and they all have generally they all have a creation story, whether it was the two steves jobs and Wozniak working in the garage trying to make computers for the rest of us, or HP had the same story. Then winding coils and the Harley Davidson, Davidson started in the garage and thank God for the garage. Right. And they had words that they had built around them and special words imac and this and that and the other thing, iced grande, skinny decaf latte for Starbucks. And they all had competitors or people that were against them in some way, shape or form Mac versus pc burger wars, the colder wars back in the 1919 nineties and dating myself. But but these days it's google phone versus iphone and so forth. And so anyway, the vegans versus mediators and I started to see that there were some similarities between the big powerful brands and even those that didn't advertise like google and Starbucks still had these things, these assets and pillars, some people call them, we call it primal code. So if you have a creation story, you have a creed, you have icons, you have rituals, you have uh special words, a lexicon, their sacred words, you have non believers and you have a leader. And when you pull these seven things together in a storyline, what we call a strategic brand narrative, you ping not only as it happens, not only the rational parts of our brains that make help things make sense, but also the emotional parts of our brains that we are that draws us to you and when all these things are pulled together, you do create a belief system and a system of belief in that people not only on the outside customer facing share, but also hopefully people on the inside because if the people inside your company don't believe in what they're doing there, you're certainly not going to be able to sell people on the outside. So you pull these things together and uh you attract into a belief system and you attract others who share your beliefs and that can be two people or it could be too billion people. So it all comes down to the beliefs which to me is almost summarized in the creed, which you have, the creed is something like what I would I think that most people would call like the mission what you're trying to accomplish. Not necessarily like a b hag, but what do you want to see different in the world? Kind of a thing. And a lot of companies have missions, but not very strong ones. I don't think it's the mission. It's the the mission is like what we're trying to set out to do. And the creed is more this is the thing that rallies us around that mission, but it's it's just doing its think different, it's the ultimate driving machine. It was the old ups thing if we build the tightest ship in the shipping business or have the type...

...of ship in the shipping business, which was reflective in that and spoke now it's an old campaign engaging myself immediately. But anyway, the it was instrumental in that time for ups that with the tightest ship in the shipping business because it told the customers that they had their stuff together, they're shipped together. And but it was reflexive because that also they they did not have their ship together. And at that point in time ups knew that if they wanted to be the global logistics supply chain provider, they needed to have their ship together, get their ship together. And so it was so the employees were hearing this at the same time and it rallied everyone around a tent pole. That's interesting. So it's very much a rallying cry that everybody behind, not only internally externally, but it's important for people to know, here's why we're here, here's how we started, here's why we're here, how, why we come to work in the morning. These are the things that people that identify us, whether it's quick service or brown truck, and here are the things that we do, the processes that we have that make us unique and special. Here are the words that we use to describe all of this, which are unique and special. And usually, and then here's what we're not never want to become, which is a critically important. And then and then here's here's the leader, here's who's leading the way and who is usually the person who set out against all odds in order to recreate the world according to their own point of view. And so that's Henry ford, that's thomas. Edison, That's steve jobs, that's, you know, and Jeff Bezos and so the once you pull all those together into a narrative into a story, once you identify them, excuse me, that's their first step is to deconstruct them and make sure to deconstruct the brand and make sure that they have all of these pieces in place, then we distribute them across social digital and traditional media, so that customers and people inside understand who we are and what we're about. It sounds a lot like Simon cynics, the golden circles with y in the middle at the creed and the Y are essentially that same answer except the Y. Is just the creed. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And there are six other pieces Simon doesn't talk about but we do. What are those six other pieces? The creed is the why the creation story. Okay, so it's the primal code. It's the primal code. Creation story, created icons, rituals, lexicon or sacred words, pagans, non believers and leader. That makes sense. What are some of the exercises you walk through to help customers find a strong creed when there's not one that's just evident. There's not a great creation story, It's like the creation stories we wanted to make money and it's just this opportunity came and we started making money business to start like that. It was an opportunity we saw and did it and now it's evolved to be something big. But our brand needs some help. Well the you hit it on the head because that's the hardest one to come up with I think. And that's why. So I'm in the why and the why is sometimes unexplainable, inexplicable and very difficult to come up with. And then what do you do with it once you figure it out? And so the we do a lot of work with people who have explored the y in great detail but don't know what else to do now. And so the things that yeah, we were with one group of people at Microsoft, they created a billion dollar enterprise was already successful. We spent the next three hours discussing why they came into work in the morning and it's very and even then it was a little bit up to question but the create is it's not the mission. Sometimes it becomes the tagline. Usually it's something that's been winnowed down or whittled down by...

...generations of copywriters whose job it's been, it has been to really condense it down into a couple of words. Sometimes it's one word. H. P. S. Word for a while was invented. So when you were driving onto the campus at HP every morning you knew why you were their think different same thing. It really coalesced the Apple's reason for being at that time. And so they're getting it down to one or two words or five words or whatever. It is, a very difficult and painstaking process and sometimes you need real professionals to get to that. But I should point out that none of this costs any money to do. There was a great example, I was speaking to a president before the book came out in 2000. This is by the way, the 20th 20th anniversary of when I Came up with primal code, primal branding back in 2001 in the summer of 2001 and just real quick I was I perfected it during or whatever thought of it during june july august I didn't do anything because I was Living in Connecticut at the time and no one does anything in New York during the month of August except go to the shore and I made a few appointments for September and then September 11 happened And in 2001 and nobody really cared about a new branding idea at that time. And so I just put it on the back burner and got busy like everyone else. And I gave a speech about it one time and and someone induced me to go find an agent and get the book written. So anyway, I used to talk though, it used to be a subject that I would talk about it when I was invited to give a speech. And so I was talking to a president's circle, a group of people. And when one of the guys heard that, oh you can use these pieces of primal code to create culture inside of the organization. He immediately went back to the office and wrote down his creation stories, create his icons when his rituals were with their special language was I think he came up with some additional rituals at the time, but he wasn't and They didn't want to become what they didn't want to become. And he of course was the leader was a tech company. They were worth about $2 million. Two or $3 million He built it into uh, $12 million dollar organization, at which point he sold it and to some people. But he kept his stock and so nine months later the people who sold it to so flipped it and sold it again for 100 and $50 million because the people who bought it said they could not recreate the college that organization had and there's a case study right of B two B tech company and uh, how primal works and it didn't cost them anything to do. Just like I said earlier, they instituted a couple of new rituals and like beer varieties or something like that. And went on from there. Another word for ritual by the way is process. So the, we had another case in point where we worked with a Conservancy in kenya called Nebo show and help them straighten out their code and tell their story and there was, and is no marketing person there and we won the in 2016 a few years ago now the gold award for Ecotourism for Africa for the continent of Africa with zero budget, nothing. And so against all the hotels, all the tourism boards of all the countries, all the airlines, of all the countries and anyone else involved, it's really about storytelling and the, as is probably obvious by now. But the thing is that from the moment we're born, we're told stories were told that we're a boy or a girl. we belong in this family, here's your room, we're in this neighborhood, this city, this state, this country, this planet and...

...we're told, we're going to school or whatever as we grow older, we're told what we're good at, what we're bad at and we start to wrap all of these stories around us. And then of course at some point in time we might discover that some of these stories we've been told are not true or they can be rewritten or we tear them up or want to tear them up. And so we do the same thing with products. We give them a story and that story maybe believable or not believable or people might believe it or tend not to believe it. And what's happening now in marketing is that people don't believe us. They don't believe marketing, communications or advertising, 90 80-90% of people think it's a lie And what we tell them is a lie. But they 80, also believe, do believe what their parents tell them about a product or service and that's where getting the stars and so forth and testimonials and consumer reviews has become so important. I used to write Super Bowl commercials and These days I would suggest that you should take your $2 million dollars and invested in getting another star or getting some more community consumer reviews and get your ratings up because that would probably be more effective out there in the marketplace aside from the seats that you might be getting at the Super Bowl, you, you mentioned before that there were some exercises, you take customers through to help find beliefs, help find why and they're not the full process and it takes exercises alone, don't give you the answer. But what are some of those exercises you've used that have been helpful to your, we go back when someone has been really, we use non believers a lot. When someone, when a company is stuck, it could be a startup, that stock or it could be a company that's 100 years old and they're trying to find, become relevant to a new marketplace like gen Z or something, millennials or whatever. And or it could be just, the product is no longer relevant. And so the, we go back and we find out, help them figure out well, how about this? And they go, no, we don't want to do that. And so, well, how about this? No, I don't think so. And so how about this? Maybe? And so we work them backwards into a space where it might be a corner, but at least it's a starting point becomes a starting point for, okay, you do like this. You do want to go there. And so then we build from that. Another thing is just going back to in their history, going back and figuring out their original reason for being, why did they exist? What was the point of difference back then? And sometimes it's very functional but it became their reason for being and hey, by the way that's the reason for being still applies. A great example of that is Motorola, which they used to build radios and then they stopped building radios and then cell phones came along and by the way a cellphone, mobile phone is a radio and so that gave them the credibility to go back and build little radios, make cell phones, make mobile phones. And so sometimes that's where it is for HP was they started out winding coils something you have me thinking a lot about as I was reading the book was the idea around pagans and non believers almost fine for a lot of story creation like defining the anti eyes almost helps to find what you stand for. I think you said it a moment ago and even finding your creed by defining the nonbelievers, sometimes you can find the creed. What do you feel like it fits in an idea on the table? I think been made popular though he didn't invent it was Donald miller about having a villain in this story. Is it better to find maybe a competitor or maybe an idea that your competitor...

...stands for to villainize? How do you go about looking for the non believers of the villain or things to stand well having a villain. Yeah. Donald certainly didn't invent it. The, having the villain is crucial in terms of building drama and having something to stand against planting your flag. And so the but we have found more positive things regarding the villain. In other words, if you can identify a group of people who can't have sugar, you can invent sugar free, create that. If you can identify a group of people who don't want to eat meat, you can create new food stuffs and new food sources. Even hashtag quinoa, if you can invent or create, identify a group of people who don't want to drive gas guzzling SUVs, you can create new kinds of cars and new kinds of energy and so on from there totally new ecosystems. So that's a blue ocean approach to it. We've also, we have used it to help people find their way back strategically to find their way back to being becoming relevant all over again. I find that the leader can be a difficult thing sometimes to deal with when looking at a brand. How critical is a leader to the primal code and can you have a strong brand without having a strong leader, You can have a strong brand I think, but it's more difficult. Certainly there are the front page headline driving leaders, bas osas and Elon musk and Oprah Winfrey and Jack Welch when he was still around and other people like that. But you'll notice that without strong leadership, some of those companies like IBM for example, tend to recede in lieu of those people who are out in front. And so I think it's important, it's tricky these days because some leaders, if you're, some leaders come out of the sales department where they are very gregarious and they're talkative and don't mind being in front of the camera. There are other people just because of the state of things in the state of investment in technology who are former C. I. O. S. Or C. Fos, who are not as gregarious or talkative or, and more shy reclusive. That does not necessarily help the organization, I would say. And so, uh, the thing that we tend to ask people to do, even if they are not the leader is to, in other words, you're the marketing manager or your head of sales or something is to promote your own brand, go out there and get your own personal brand, yes, and go out there, get the photos, take, do some talks, write some articles, write some blogs, whatever do some blogs, whatever it is that you can help support you in your career because people don't stay at the same job for 30 years anymore. And ultimately, we just saw that recently how companies determine who's who's vital and who's not, who's expendable. And so the ultimate goal is to not is to shape your own future. So that makes a lot of sense. Makes a lot of sense for a personal brand and you are the leader of your own personal brand when it comes to a company, would you say it's safer to diversify by maybe bringing up a number of thought leaders, some people call them personalities, but essentially your faces of the company or is it better to hunt and groom and find the one that might be the ceo, it might be your key subject matter expert. Yeah, I think that depends totally on what industry you're in, what category you're in. But I think that and what your culture, there are two, several people, I think...

...that I'm not gonna point out, I'm not gonna name names but that they have totally promoted themselves and built their own personal brand while being at large organizations and and they did exactly what I just described. And so I think that sometimes helps the organization sometimes is despite the organization, but I think it's incredibly necessary in today's world. That's fantastic. And we do that a lot with sweet fish and it's something, it's certainly an idea. We promote a lot is building employees brands out and I think that your, your organization is better for it as long as that person is that your organization organization and that certainly we looked at places like google for their X for example, for their expertise and having a laundry list of great people who are working there or facebook or amazon or anyplace else. And so the, the aggregation of terrific people who have thoughts, who have ideas sparks the entire organization, I think so I think it's organizationally fundamental at this point in time to think about the grooming and um thought leadership that your organization provides and that's what we're talking about really is thought leadership. Thought leaders. And so it's it's good for the organization as a whole. I think it revs everyone up, look at someone like Virgil Ablow who just died last week, unfortunately who has went to joint building um age. And I think that he helped spark the whole organization. And I think that with his passing, you can see that people are a week later people are still talking about it and what he did, even though he was not out in front all the time and some people may not even know who he is or what he accomplished. But yeah, let's talk about rituals. You define a ritual as possibly a problem. It could just be a process, but it's something that's happening habitually, it's something that's going on over and over again with beginning to identify rituals that could be part of a greater part of the story and a part of the brand. Do you look for processes that already exist that you can then brand or do you try to invent them or even try to map the brand onto maybe habits, your, your ideal buyer's already, first of all rituals are repeated interactions or engagements that we have either internally or externally. So when they're internally their processes, if they're externally, it's you X user experience customer experiences. And so the we want those to be positive, right? Because every contact point that our customer has with us, we want to be positive. And just imagine all the marketing efforts that have been spoiled because someone visitors visits our office and the receptionist is having a bad cancels out every positive thing that all this grooming that you've done out there in terms of your brand and brand messaging. But anyway, the and same as they get someone on the phone who's rude or is having a bad day. So you want your rituals to be positive. What I usually do at this point in time, If I'm standing in front of our a group of people is I call you line. Your line is a for those who don't know, they sell waste baskets and mops and packing tape and the rudiments of the supply room basically. And If once you call you line you get someone on the phone and you can order something within 60 seconds. A real human being gets on the phone and you can order something within 60 seconds and you hang up and you think to yourself, it occurs to you, why can't the credit card companies do that? Why can't the banks do that? Why can't...

...the airlines do that because and once upon, once I gave that example and I actually called you line, we ordered something within 60 seconds, less than 60 seconds And someone in the crowd rattled off all the systems that needed to be in place in order for the line to do that. And there were four or five unique things but the, but still they're also, it's all available. You just have to link it all together. So that's rituals and so the rituals are important because you want those interactions to be positive and you want to remove in Silicon Valley, we talk about, we want to want to remove the pain points and when we're building apps and so forth. And so it's really a process of removing all the pain points to create that very positive because we're going for user reviews and we're going for user stars and get those removed the pain points. So we get as as positive an experience as possible. And you saw the thing here is to go through rituals are not only the repeated interactions but there are also the things that we celebrate just in the world. The holidays are coming up here as we're recording this and people are going crazy not only about buying gifts and so forth, but we're coming up with celebrations almost universally across around the world china will have its New year and India's just had Diwali and so forth. These are human things and we want to celebrate things. We have a need to celebrate things and we were trying to motivate employees celebrating their piques. Hopefully not valleys celebrating their accomplishments is germane to building employee morale and feeling people helping people feel that they are, that their work is valuable and meaningful and that they are contributing something so that have more incentive or motivated to move forward and coming to work in the morning and not quit this week water rate. Do you find that when you're looking at a ritual and improving maybe something external to us that you're trying to map it back or try to find ways to map it back to the creed and maps some of your interesting beliefs. It's not only how can we make the user experience good, it's how do we make weird as in it aligns with how we perceive things. It aligns with our creed. So are pagans would not like this ritual because it doesn't, they don't believe what we believe. So our rituals might be a little different. Sorry there trying to pull it off the Yes, absolutely. Everything is what we're trying to do here is we're trying to take something that is meaningless, basically meaningless in trying to make it meaningful. Each piece of primal code. Whether it's the created creation story, icons, rituals lexicon nonbelievers or leader is trying to make this person place or thing more meaningful to people. And so we are trying to do things that when we put the code in place. Each piece of code is going to be unique and differentiating. First of all, some things might be similar. We still have a coffee shop and there are 1000 other coffee coffee shops but we're trying to build in things that make us unique even if it's just the people behind the counter. And so the once we accomplish that, so it's incremental. These successes are incremental, the points of differentiation are incremental. All of these pieces are unique and they can be incremental and we're making improvements and moving things because we live in moments today, we want to make those moments positive and we make one so we do things incrementally and each increment really counts, whereas...

...in previous times it may not have counted. So when we're online we want to have positive experiences and we want to repeat those positive experiences and those celebrations in real life too. So when we're going I. R. L. We want to those that experience to mimic what's happening online and vice versa, Especially in B two B. When I think about brands, everybody can have a logo, let's say Hyatt Hotels has a logo, but there's nothing you don't really expect. It doesn't really mean anything beyond the fact that it stands for that company versus a different hotel. In fact, most hotels don't really have strong brand, you can swap their logos back and forth on the buildings and most people wouldn't be able to tell one from the other. I think the idea behind it is that the creed and the things that make the brand really different is what makes the brand rather than a nice looking building with a nice looking logo. I think it's the total experience. Yeah, right. There are a zillion hotels that mean nothing to us. But if you go to a W or you go to a four seasons or you could go to other some other special hotels, let's say where they do pay attention to these things and they do create moments that are special. Whether I still remember when it's just flashed on me as we were getting out of the car at the W Hotel in Beverly Hills and the guy said, open the door to the car and he said, hello Mr Krauser. Mr Krauser had not been at the W hotel in three years, so that's the level of service that's provided the W hotel. And if you look at that meaningless moment really, it's meaningless to me anyway, and and but very meaningful to him and you add all those together times, all of the people that go to W hotels that you can probably look forward to. A very pleasant experience there. To wrap up the interview. I'd love to ask like when people are working on building a primal brand for their company, what are some usual hang ups, they get on like things that throw them off from being able to develop a strong primal brand. Can we talk about first steps? The because I think the first steps are important because this is a systematic approach to building a brand and and it's you're really building the root code for authentic brands when you do this, but you need to deconstruct the brand into its seven pieces, the creation story that created the icons, the rituals, the lexicon, non believers and leader and identify okay, things that you have in place in things where there might be gaps. A lot of times there are gaps if you're a startup, so you have to fill it in if you're 100 year old brand or company, you may have some things, but they've grown rusty over time. And that's what how brands grow stale, That's how you become Sears. And so the thing that you want to do is you have to refresh them and by the way, it's not enough along with that growing stale piece, it's not enough to just identify them, but you really do have to reinvigorate them or re in re energize them over time. You can't just let them stay follow like that. Remember that Yes, the creation story is the creation story, but the next goal or objective is how do you distribute them across social digital and traditional media and facebook's creation story became a movie, social network beats by dre became a piece on netflix called the defiant ones about jimmy, I wien and dr dre Andrew young and how they...

...started themselves personally as music producers and then how that that became them, ultimately became them joining together to build beats. One of the few brands that reached a billion dollars in three years, you have to go wide and be unexpected zig when others zag just like you would in any other communication strategy and and try to fill in those blanks and become relevant and become resident and energize the organism. All these seven of these pieces thing together, help build a belief system so that this is something that people believe in. They're motivated. They're energized, they get excited, they celebrate, they talk, they tell other people about where they work and how is it going at work? Great. Where do you work again? You tell them and I want to work there too. And so that's how you are able to really build something that listen, the If you're a founder or it's a family enterprise or something, you will work there. You know, for 20 years, let's say at the end of 20 years, you could either have a company that has a building and equipment and some employees and sell it for X. Or during that same amount of time. You could have created a brand that also has building and assets, employees and employees, but it's worth 10 x. So which would you rather cash out with X or 10 x. And we all know that Brain go for 10 X. They go for um ultimately might not go for 10 X. But they go for a multiple many times X. And so that's a great reason for doing it. The other reason is of course you get to hire the people that you want to hire because they want to come to work to you, they look for you instead of you having to go out and seek them out. So there are other efficiencies that happened along the way as well. So it just makes life easier, the long run and it doesn't have to cost anything. It's probably the most practical thing that I I think most people listening to this can take away. If you take the primal code and the seven different elements, you can literally just go one by one and ask which ones are we already doing, which ones are we missing, which ones have gotten rusty if the audience is listening and if there's anything you can take away that is like actionable. That is the one thing you could probably do this week with your team and have an understanding of what you can do next to improve your brand or at least start brainstorming on how to improve your brand to fill in some gaps or refresh what's been sitting and growing old for a while and if you think about Apple Starbucks, Nike amazon etcetera etcetera every day if you're an Apple person, you hear about the phone, you hear about the stock price, you hear about what tim Cook's doing, you hear about some other aspect but what's in the future and you, so they are pinging, but because it's the stock price, it's financing because it's Tim Cook was personal branding, maybe personality branding, that's I. T. V. Or something like that, that's or I cars, I suppose it's the new one, something else that's happening out there, they're pinging different parts of your brain and and it's much different than the Energizer bunny which is still saying the same thing banging the drum 20 years later and I don't know maybe that may be effective too, but I certainly prefer to hear something about apple or amazon than I do hearing from something from the Energizer bunny. So Patrick, this has been fantastic to know about your primal branding book, I know there was another book you wanted to talk about in order to get our audience familiar with it to, do you want to talk about that a little bit? Sure, so primal branding, just so people know is required reading at Youtube has been for several years, so when people stars, celebrities, companies go to youtube and asked how can we create billion views and they are sent to primal...

...branding or at least if they're not sent to it there, the people had youtube refer to the principles that you just, I heard about one of those people is Darrell leaves at so there's a culture or a mini tribe of Youtubers who teach other Youtubers how to use primal branding. One of those people is Darrell leaves E v E S. He has a new book out that just came out called the Youtube Formula, which I would recommend to everyone because in here, Daryl is, I just asked him last the other day if he was felt he was an analytics person or a creative person and he said, well a creative person because who wouldn't want to be a creative person rather than an analytics person. But anyway the numbers cruncher but the but Darryl is a multiple threat. He does both excellently. And he also uses Primal and he has written a new book called Youtube formula where he goes into not only how to use Youtube's analytics And work with those algorithms rather than try to hack them, which does not work, which ultimately fails, but he a chapter 18 and devotes to primal branding because he used primal too create the record breaking crowdfunding. Some broke all records and raised over $10 million in crowdfunding using primal Code creation story, create icons, rituals, sacred words, nonbelievers and leader to do that. I will say it is you mentioned it before the pre interview and I was like yes, I actually have this book, I've read this book and it is a fantastic book. Anybody who's getting into video period even if it's not, youtube needs to read the book, there's a lot that goes beyond youtube. But of course anything youtube is like if anybody's getting to youtube then this is like gonna be the bible. I thought the discussion, whole discussion of how we used social media and not just do too by the way, but how it integrates with how we used facebook and instagram and I'm leaving something out. But anyway, the other social media as well is a perfect example of how you distribute code across social digital and traditional media by the way includes not just television advertising on tv but outdoor advertising. Pr and so forth. So email Patrick, this has been a great interview where can people connect with you online, Primal branding dot Ceo Also we have a pretty good I think instagram at primal branding and you be the judge and follow us please. And then of course those, I think those are the two, but we also write on medium and I used to write for Forbes but I got tired of that writing for medium now and yeah, google me Patrick, hanlon, H A N L O N Yeah, fantastic. Thanks again for joining me on GDP growth. Oh thanks a lot dan. It's been great pleasure being here. Thanks so much.

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