The Best Book I've Read On Branding with Patrick Hanlon

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

In this episode, Dan Sanchez talks with Patrick Hanlon about his book Primal Branding and how it has changed the way Dan approaches branding for companies, products, and people. 

It provides a clear framework on how to inject meaning and weight into your brand so that it can be more than a logo.

Welcome back to G. D. P. Growth. I'mdan Sanchez with Sweet fish media and today I'm talking to Patrick Hanlon whois the author of primal branding and the ceo of Primal branding co Patrick,welcome to the show, hey thanks for having me to be here. I've been looking forward to thisepisode for a long time because your book has been one of the best booksthat I've read in awhile and I read a lot of books on business. I read a lotof books on marketing before reading primal branding. It was certainlybranding was just an ambiguous term. People meant different things. You'relike, are we talking about logos, colors, emotion stories, what are wetalking about and everyone had a different view. I wasn't to tell this,I was like oh it was finally like it gave me a playbook, not that it's easybut it gave me a playbook and actually to address what is a strong brandversus a non strong brand and how to take a brand that's just shallow andturn it into something really robust and meaty. So I'm looking forward tocovering giving some highlights of the book but also asking you some questionsfor our audience On how to use the primal branding system, what you callthe primal brand in order to build better brands for their B- two Bcompanies. Great, hopefully we're making it easier, it's not easy butit's easier B two C brands have certainly led the charge when it comesto what good branding can look like and B. Two B has always been catching up.But lately it seems like B two B brands have started to do some great thingsout there, but it's still few and far between and or B. Two B leaders arestill looking for how to make their business brands stronger and resonatemore deeply with their their target audiences. So I was really lookingforward to interviewing you to get some more of this content in front of theaudience. Yeah, I think actually the the difference between B two B and Btwo C was, I don't know if it was artificial in the first place or not,but it's certainly the lines have blurred a little bit as people becomemore, here we are, we're sitting in our home offices and working from home andwe're constantly on our phones checking things out etcetera etcetera. And so Ithink that the lines have blurred between B two B and real life. And inthe case of using primal it's definitely there's no difference. So welook at things as how do you brand people places and things and if it's aperson, it's whether you're Elon musk or it's you or Justin Bieber orsomething like that places, it could be a geographic place, like a country, theU. S. Or France or something or it could be Disney land or Disney worldand in terms of things, certainly products and services of course, butalso things like concepts like gravity, like why do we all believe in gravityor Cryptocurrency is a new one that's out there or coronavirus for thatmatter. So why do we believe in these things? So they all have the sameroutes. It brings me back to one of my favoriteterm or quotes in the book and I had to under light and highlighted because itbecame it was the big change in aha for me was when you said brands, our beliefsystems. Once you look at a brand like a belief system and automatically gainsthe advantage is that enterprise strives for trust, vibrancy, empathy,commitment. Yeah. It's the thing that people spend so much money on all theirmarketing efforts are toward trying to I don't want to say superficially, butin a in a slim way, let's say create vision and values and trust andefficacy and community and customers And and we don't really know,especially in B2B, I would say, but also in consumer packaged goods and soforth. Any also maybe to a lesser extent, but we really the subject ofbranding has always been like molding...

...fog, I'd like to say. And if you ask100 people what is the brand, you get 100 different answers. And nowhere elsein marketing or advertising industry, do we let something go that is notmeasured, right? It does not is not measured or that that effort didn'tmarketing effort didn't work. Sorry, let's try something else, zig and Zagand I just thought that was ridiculous. And I had a client project that I wasworking on and I started to wonder to myself or what really separates the,what are the powerful brands doing? Is there any kind of pattern that's inthere? And of course, my first thing I thought of was, well, they all have alogo. And then I started thinking well along right underneath that logo istheir theme or creed as they ultimately called it. They all have a leave ceo orsomeone else, a steve jobs or Elon musk or something. Ellen really wasn'taround at that time. But the and they all have generally they all have acreation story, whether it was the two steves jobs and Wozniak working in thegarage trying to make computers for the rest of us, or HP had the same story.Then winding coils and the Harley Davidson, Davidson started in thegarage and thank God for the garage. Right. And they had words that they hadbuilt around them and special words imac and this and that and the otherthing, iced grande, skinny decaf latte for Starbucks. And they all hadcompetitors or people that were against them in some way, shape or form Macversus pc burger wars, the colder wars back in the 1919 nineties and datingmyself. But but these days it's google phone versus iphone and so forth. Andso anyway, the vegans versus mediators and I started to see that there weresome similarities between the big powerful brands and even those thatdidn't advertise like google and Starbucks still had these things, theseassets and pillars, some people call them, we call it primal code. So if youhave a creation story, you have a creed, you have icons, you have rituals, youhave uh special words, a lexicon, their sacred words, you have non believersand you have a leader. And when you pull these seven things together in astoryline, what we call a strategic brand narrative, you ping not only asit happens, not only the rational parts of our brains that make help thingsmake sense, but also the emotional parts of our brains that we are thatdraws us to you and when all these things are pulled together, you docreate a belief system and a system of belief in that people not only on theoutside customer facing share, but also hopefully people on the inside becauseif the people inside your company don't believe in what they're doing there,you're certainly not going to be able to sell people on the outside. So youpull these things together and uh you attract into a belief system and youattract others who share your beliefs and that can be two people or it couldbe too billion people. So it all comes down to the beliefswhich to me is almost summarized in the creed, which you have, the creed issomething like what I would I think that most people would call like themission what you're trying to accomplish. Not necessarily like a bhag, but what do you want to see different in the world? Kind of a thing.And a lot of companies have missions, but not very strong ones. I don't thinkit's the mission. It's the the mission is like what we're trying to set out todo. And the creed is more this is the thing that rallies us around thatmission, but it's it's just doing its think different, it's the ultimatedriving machine. It was the old ups thing if we build the tightest ship inthe shipping business or have the type...

...of ship in the shipping business, whichwas reflective in that and spoke now it's an old campaign engaging myselfimmediately. But anyway, the it was instrumental in that time for ups thatwith the tightest ship in the shipping business because it told the customersthat they had their stuff together, they're shipped together. And but itwas reflexive because that also they they did not have their ship together.And at that point in time ups knew that if they wanted to be the globallogistics supply chain provider, they needed to have their ship together, gettheir ship together. And so it was so the employees were hearing this at thesame time and it rallied everyone around a tent pole. That's interesting.So it's very much a rallying cry that everybody behind, not only internallyexternally, but it's important for people to know, here's why we're here,here's how we started, here's why we're here, how, why we come to work in themorning. These are the things that people that identify us, whether it'squick service or brown truck, and here are the things that we do, theprocesses that we have that make us unique and special. Here are the wordsthat we use to describe all of this, which are unique and special. Andusually, and then here's what we're not never want to become, which is acritically important. And then and then here's here's the leader, here's who'sleading the way and who is usually the person who set out against all odds inorder to recreate the world according to their own point of view. And sothat's Henry ford, that's thomas. Edison, That's steve jobs, that's, youknow, and Jeff Bezos and so the once you pull all those together into anarrative into a story, once you identify them, excuse me, that's theirfirst step is to deconstruct them and make sure to deconstruct the brand andmake sure that they have all of these pieces in place, then we distributethem across social digital and traditional media, so that customersand people inside understand who we are and what we're about. It sounds a lot like Simon cynics, thegolden circles with y in the middle at the creed and the Y are essentiallythat same answer except the Y. Is just the creed. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And thereare six other pieces Simon doesn't talk about but we do. What are those sixother pieces? The creed is the why the creation story.Okay, so it's the primal code. It's the primal code. Creation story, createdicons, rituals, lexicon or sacred words, pagans, non believers and leader. That makes sense. What are some of theexercises you walk through to help customers find a strong creed whenthere's not one that's just evident. There's not a great creation story,It's like the creation stories we wanted to make money and it's just thisopportunity came and we started making money business to start like that. Itwas an opportunity we saw and did it and now it's evolved to be somethingbig. But our brand needs some help. Well the you hit it on the head becausethat's the hardest one to come up with I think. And that's why. So I'm in thewhy and the why is sometimes unexplainable, inexplicable and verydifficult to come up with. And then what do you do with it once you figureit out? And so the we do a lot of work with people who have explored the y ingreat detail but don't know what else to do now. And so the things that yeah,we were with one group of people at Microsoft, they created a billiondollar enterprise was already successful. We spent the next threehours discussing why they came into work in the morning and it's very andeven then it was a little bit up to question but the create is it's not themission. Sometimes it becomes the tagline. Usually it's something that'sbeen winnowed down or whittled down by...

...generations of copywriters whose jobit's been, it has been to really condense it down into a couple of words.Sometimes it's one word. H. P. S. Word for a while was invented. So when youwere driving onto the campus at HP every morning you knew why you weretheir think different same thing. It really coalesced the Apple's reason forbeing at that time. And so they're getting it down to one or two words orfive words or whatever. It is, a very difficult and painstaking process andsometimes you need real professionals to get to that. But I should point outthat none of this costs any money to do. There was a great example, I wasspeaking to a president before the book came out in 2000. This is by the way,the 20th 20th anniversary of when I Came up with primal code, primalbranding back in 2001 in the summer of 2001 and just real quick I was Iperfected it during or whatever thought of it during june july august I didn'tdo anything because I was Living in Connecticut at the time and no one doesanything in New York during the month of August except go to the shore and Imade a few appointments for September and then September 11 happened And in2001 and nobody really cared about a new branding idea at that time. And soI just put it on the back burner and got busy like everyone else. And I gavea speech about it one time and and someone induced me to go find an agentand get the book written. So anyway, I used to talk though, it used to be asubject that I would talk about it when I was invited to give a speech. And soI was talking to a president's circle, a group of people. And when one of theguys heard that, oh you can use these pieces of primal code to create cultureinside of the organization. He immediately went back to the office andwrote down his creation stories, create his icons when his rituals were withtheir special language was I think he came up with some additional rituals atthe time, but he wasn't and They didn't want to become what they didn't want tobecome. And he of course was the leader was a tech company. They were worthabout $2 million. Two or $3 million He built it into uh, $12 million dollarorganization, at which point he sold it and to some people. But he kept hisstock and so nine months later the people who sold it to so flipped it andsold it again for 100 and $50 million because the people who bought it saidthey could not recreate the college that organization had and there's acase study right of B two B tech company and uh, how primal works and itdidn't cost them anything to do. Just like I said earlier, they instituted acouple of new rituals and like beer varieties or something like that. Andwent on from there. Another word for ritual by the way is process. So the,we had another case in point where we worked with a Conservancy in kenyacalled Nebo show and help them straighten out their code and telltheir story and there was, and is no marketing person there and we won thein 2016 a few years ago now the gold award for Ecotourism for Africa for thecontinent of Africa with zero budget, nothing. And so against all the hotels,all the tourism boards of all the countries, all the airlines, of all thecountries and anyone else involved, it's really about storytelling and the,as is probably obvious by now. But the thing is that from the moment we'reborn, we're told stories were told that we're a boy or a girl. we belong inthis family, here's your room, we're in this neighborhood, this city, thisstate, this country, this planet and...

...we're told, we're going to school orwhatever as we grow older, we're told what we're good at, what we're bad atand we start to wrap all of these stories around us. And then of courseat some point in time we might discover that some of these stories we've beentold are not true or they can be rewritten or we tear them up or want totear them up. And so we do the same thing with products. We give them astory and that story maybe believable or not believable or peoplemight believe it or tend not to believe it. And what's happening now inmarketing is that people don't believe us. They don't believe marketing,communications or advertising, 90 80-90% of people think it's a lie Andwhat we tell them is a lie. But they 80, also believe, do believe what theirparents tell them about a product or service and that's where getting thestars and so forth and testimonials and consumer reviews has become soimportant. I used to write Super Bowl commercials and These days I wouldsuggest that you should take your $2 million dollars and invested in gettinganother star or getting some more community consumer reviews and get yourratings up because that would probably be more effective out there in themarketplace aside from the seats that you might be getting at the Super Bowl,you, you mentioned before that there were some exercises, you take customersthrough to help find beliefs, help find why and they're not the full processand it takes exercises alone, don't give you the answer. But what are someof those exercises you've used that have been helpful to your, we go backwhen someone has been really, we use non believers a lot. When someone, whena company is stuck, it could be a startup, that stock or it could be acompany that's 100 years old and they're trying to find, become relevantto a new marketplace like gen Z or something, millennials or whatever. Andor it could be just, the product is no longer relevant. And so the, we go backand we find out, help them figure out well, how about this? And they go, no,we don't want to do that. And so, well, how about this? No, I don't think so.And so how about this? Maybe? And so we work them backwards into a space whereit might be a corner, but at least it's a starting point becomes a startingpoint for, okay, you do like this. You do want to go there. And so then webuild from that. Another thing is just going back to in their history, goingback and figuring out their original reason for being, why did they exist?What was the point of difference back then? And sometimes it's very functional butit became their reason for being and hey, by the way that's the reason forbeing still applies. A great example of that is Motorola, which they used tobuild radios and then they stopped building radios and then cell phonescame along and by the way a cellphone, mobile phone is a radio and so thatgave them the credibility to go back and build little radios, make cellphones, make mobile phones. And so sometimes that's where it is for HP wasthey started out winding coils something you have me thinking a lotabout as I was reading the book was the idea around pagans and non believersalmost fine for a lot of story creation like defining the anti eyes almosthelps to find what you stand for. I think you said it a moment ago and evenfinding your creed by defining the nonbelievers, sometimes you can findthe creed. What do you feel like it fits in an idea on the table? I thinkbeen made popular though he didn't invent it was Donald miller abouthaving a villain in this story. Is it better to find maybe a competitor ormaybe an idea that your competitor...

...stands for to villainize? How do you goabout looking for the non believers of the villain or things to stand wellhaving a villain. Yeah. Donald certainly didn't invent it. The, havingthe villain is crucial in terms of building drama and having something tostand against planting your flag. And so the but we have found more positivethings regarding the villain. In other words, if you can identify a group ofpeople who can't have sugar, you can invent sugar free, create that. If youcan identify a group of people who don't want to eat meat, you can createnew food stuffs and new food sources. Even hashtag quinoa, if you can inventor create, identify a group of people who don't want to drive gas guzzlingSUVs, you can create new kinds of cars and new kinds of energy and so on fromthere totally new ecosystems. So that's a blue ocean approach to it. We've also,we have used it to help people find their way back strategically to findtheir way back to being becoming relevant all over again. I find that the leader can be adifficult thing sometimes to deal with when looking at a brand. How criticalis a leader to the primal code and can you have a strong brand without havinga strong leader, You can have a strong brand I think,but it's more difficult. Certainly there are the front page headlinedriving leaders, bas osas and Elon musk and Oprah Winfrey and Jack Welch whenhe was still around and other people like that. But you'll notice thatwithout strong leadership, some of those companies like IBM for example,tend to recede in lieu of those people who are out in front. And so I thinkit's important, it's tricky these days because some leaders, if you're, someleaders come out of the sales department where they are verygregarious and they're talkative and don't mind being in front of the camera.There are other people just because of the state of things in the state ofinvestment in technology who are former C. I. O. S. Or C. Fos, who are not asgregarious or talkative or, and more shy reclusive. That does notnecessarily help the organization, I would say. And so, uh, the thing thatwe tend to ask people to do, even if they are not the leader is to, in otherwords, you're the marketing manager or your head of sales or something is topromote your own brand, go out there and get your own personalbrand, yes, and go out there, get the photos, take, do some talks, write somearticles, write some blogs, whatever do some blogs, whatever it is that you canhelp support you in your career because people don't stay at the same job for30 years anymore. And ultimately, we just saw that recently how companiesdetermine who's who's vital and who's not, who's expendable. And so theultimate goal is to not is to shape your own future. So that makes a lot of sense. Makes alot of sense for a personal brand and you are the leader of your own personalbrand when it comes to a company, would you say it's safer to diversify bymaybe bringing up a number of thought leaders, some people call thempersonalities, but essentially your faces of the company or is it better tohunt and groom and find the one that might be the ceo, it might be your keysubject matter expert. Yeah, I think that depends totally on what industryyou're in, what category you're in. But I think that and what your culture,there are two, several people, I think...

...that I'm not gonna point out, I'm notgonna name names but that they have totally promoted themselves and builttheir own personal brand while being at large organizations and and they didexactly what I just described. And so I think that sometimes helps theorganization sometimes is despite the organization, but I think it'sincredibly necessary in today's world. That's fantastic. And we do that a lotwith sweet fish and it's something, it's certainly an idea. We promote alot is building employees brands out and I think that your, yourorganization is better for it as long as that person is that yourorganization organization and that certainly we looked at places likegoogle for their X for example, for their expertise and having a laundrylist of great people who are working there or facebook or amazon or anyplaceelse. And so the, the aggregation of terrific people who have thoughts, whohave ideas sparks the entire organization, I think so I think it'sorganizationally fundamental at this point in time to think about thegrooming and um thought leadership that your organization provides and that'swhat we're talking about really is thought leadership. Thought leaders.And so it's it's good for the organization as a whole. I think itrevs everyone up, look at someone like Virgil Ablow who just died last week,unfortunately who has went to joint building um age. And I think that hehelped spark the whole organization. And I think that with his passing, youcan see that people are a week later people are still talking about it andwhat he did, even though he was not out in front all the time and some peoplemay not even know who he is or what he accomplished. But yeah, let's talk about rituals. You define aritual as possibly a problem. It could just be a process, but it's somethingthat's happening habitually, it's something that's going on over and overagain with beginning to identify rituals that could be part of a greaterpart of the story and a part of the brand. Do you look for processes thatalready exist that you can then brand or do you try to invent them or eventry to map the brand onto maybe habits, your, your ideal buyer's already, firstof all rituals are repeated interactions or engagements that wehave either internally or externally. So when they're internally theirprocesses, if they're externally, it's you X user experience customerexperiences. And so the we want those to be positive, right? Because everycontact point that our customer has with us, we want to be positive. Andjust imagine all the marketing efforts that have been spoiled because someonevisitors visits our office and the receptionist is having a bad cancelsout every positive thing that all this grooming that you've done out there interms of your brand and brand messaging. But anyway, the and same as they getsomeone on the phone who's rude or is having a bad day. So you want yourrituals to be positive. What I usually do at this point in time, If I'mstanding in front of our a group of people is I call you line. Your line isa for those who don't know, they sell waste baskets and mops and packing tapeand the rudiments of the supply room basically. And If once you call youline you get someone on the phone and you can order something within 60seconds. A real human being gets on the phoneand you can order something within 60 seconds and you hang up and you thinkto yourself, it occurs to you, why can't the credit card companies do that?Why can't the banks do that? Why can't...

...the airlines do that because and onceupon, once I gave that example and I actually called you line, we orderedsomething within 60 seconds, less than 60 seconds And someone in the crowdrattled off all the systems that needed to be in place in order for the line todo that. And there were four or five unique things but the, but stillthey're also, it's all available. You just have to link it all together. So that's rituals and so the ritualsare important because you want those interactions to be positive and youwant to remove in Silicon Valley, we talk about, we want to want to removethe pain points and when we're building apps and so forth. And so it's really aprocess of removing all the pain points to create that very positive because we're going foruser reviews and we're going for user stars and get those removed the painpoints. So we get as as positive an experience as possible. And you saw thething here is to go through rituals are not only the repeated interactions butthere are also the things that we celebrate just in the world. Theholidays are coming up here as we're recording this and people are goingcrazy not only about buying gifts and so forth, but we're coming up withcelebrations almost universally across around the world china will have itsNew year and India's just had Diwali and so forth. These are human thingsand we want to celebrate things. We have a need to celebrate things and wewere trying to motivate employees celebrating their piques. Hopefully notvalleys celebrating their accomplishments is germane to buildingemployee morale and feeling people helping people feel that they are, thattheir work is valuable and meaningful and that they are contributingsomething so that have more incentive or motivated to move forward and coming to work in the morning andnot quit this week water rate. Do you find that when you're looking ata ritual and improving maybe something external to us that you're trying tomap it back or try to find ways to map it back to the creed and maps some ofyour interesting beliefs. It's not only how can we make the user experiencegood, it's how do we make weird as in it aligns with how we perceive things.It aligns with our creed. So are pagans would not like this ritual because itdoesn't, they don't believe what we believe. So our rituals might be alittle different. Sorry there trying to pull it off the Yes, absolutely.Everything is what we're trying to do here is we're trying to take somethingthat is meaningless, basically meaningless in trying to make itmeaningful. Each piece of primal code. Whether it's the created creation story,icons, rituals lexicon nonbelievers or leader is trying to make this person place or thing more meaningfulto people. And so we are trying to do things that when weput the code in place. Each piece of code is going to be unique anddifferentiating. First of all, some things might be similar. We still havea coffee shop and there are 1000 other coffee coffee shops but we're trying tobuild in things that make us unique even if it's just the people behind thecounter. And so the once we accomplish that, so it's incremental. Thesesuccesses are incremental, the points of differentiation are incremental. Allof these pieces are unique and they can be incremental and we're makingimprovements and moving things because we live in moments today, we want tomake those moments positive and we make one so we do things incrementally andeach increment really counts, whereas...

...in previous times it may not havecounted. So when we're online we want to have positive experiences and wewant to repeat those positive experiences and those celebrations inreal life too. So when we're going I. R. L. We want to those that experience tomimic what's happening online and vice versa, Especially in B two B. When I think about brands, everybodycan have a logo, let's say Hyatt Hotels has a logo, but there's nothing youdon't really expect. It doesn't really mean anything beyond the fact that itstands for that company versus a different hotel. In fact, most hotelsdon't really have strong brand, you can swap their logos back and forth on thebuildings and most people wouldn't be able to tell one from the other. Ithink the idea behind it is that the creed and the things that make thebrand really different is what makes the brand rather than a nice lookingbuilding with a nice looking logo. I think it's the total experience. Yeah,right. There are a zillion hotels that mean nothing to us. But if you go to aW or you go to a four seasons or you could go to other some other specialhotels, let's say where they do pay attention to these things and they do create moments that are special. Whether I stillremember when it's just flashed on me as we were getting out of the car atthe W Hotel in Beverly Hills and the guy said, open the door to the car andhe said, hello Mr Krauser. Mr Krauser had not been at the W hotel in threeyears, so that's the level of service that'sprovided the W hotel. And if you look at that meaningless moment really, it'smeaningless to me anyway, and and but very meaningful to him and you add allthose together times, all of the people that go to W hotels that you canprobably look forward to. A very pleasant experience there. To wrap up the interview. I'd love toask like when people are working on building a primal brand for theircompany, what are some usual hang ups, they geton like things that throw them off from being able to develop a strong primalbrand. Can we talk about first steps? The because I think the first steps areimportant because this is a systematic approach to building a brand and andit's you're really building the root code for authentic brands when you dothis, but you need to deconstruct the brand into its seven pieces, thecreation story that created the icons, the rituals, the lexicon, non believersand leader and identify okay, things that you have in place in things wherethere might be gaps. A lot of times there are gaps if you're a startup, soyou have to fill it in if you're 100 year old brand or company, you may havesome things, but they've grown rusty over time. And that's what how brandsgrow stale, That's how you become Sears. And so the thing that you want to do isyou have to refresh them and by the way, it's not enough along with that growingstale piece, it's not enough to just identify them, but you really do haveto reinvigorate them or re in re energize them over time. You can't justlet them stay follow like that. Remember that Yes, the creation storyis the creation story, but the next goal or objective is how do youdistribute them across social digital and traditional media and facebook'screation story became a movie, social network beats by dre became a piece onnetflix called the defiant ones about jimmy, I wien and dr dre Andrew youngand how they...

...started themselves personally as musicproducers and then how that that became them, ultimately became them joiningtogether to build beats. One of the few brands that reached a billion dollarsin three years, you have to go wide and be unexpected zig when others zag justlike you would in any other communication strategy and and try tofill in those blanks and become relevant and become resident andenergize the organism. All these seven of these pieces thing together, helpbuild a belief system so that this is something that people believe in.They're motivated. They're energized, they get excited, they celebrate, theytalk, they tell other people about where they work and how is it going atwork? Great. Where do you work again? You tell them and I want to work theretoo. And so that's how you are able to really build something that listen, theIf you're a founder or it's a family enterprise or something, you will workthere. You know, for 20 years, let's say at the end of 20 years, you couldeither have a company that has a building and equipment and someemployees and sell it for X. Or during that same amount of time. You couldhave created a brand that also has building and assets, employees andemployees, but it's worth 10 x. So which would you rather cash out with Xor 10 x. And we all know that Brain go for 10 X. They go for um ultimatelymight not go for 10 X. But they go for a multiple many times X. And so that'sa great reason for doing it. The other reason is of course you get to hire thepeople that you want to hire because they want to come to work to you, theylook for you instead of you having to go out and seek them out. So there areother efficiencies that happened along the way as well. So it just makes lifeeasier, the long run and it doesn't have to cost anything. It's probably the most practical thingthat I I think most people listening to this can take away. If you take theprimal code and the seven different elements, you can literally just go oneby one and ask which ones are we already doing, which ones are wemissing, which ones have gotten rusty if the audience is listening and ifthere's anything you can take away that is like actionable. That is the onething you could probably do this week with your team and have anunderstanding of what you can do next to improve your brand or at least startbrainstorming on how to improve your brand to fill in some gaps or refreshwhat's been sitting and growing old for a while and if you think about Apple Starbucks,Nike amazon etcetera etcetera every day if you're an Apple person, you hearabout the phone, you hear about the stock price, you hear about what timCook's doing, you hear about some other aspect but what's in the future and you,so they are pinging, but because it's the stock price, it's financing becauseit's Tim Cook was personal branding, maybe personality branding, that's I. T.V. Or something like that, that's or I cars, I suppose it's the new one,something else that's happening out there, they're pinging different partsof your brain and and it's much different than the Energizer bunnywhich is still saying the same thing banging the drum 20 years later and Idon't know maybe that may be effective too, but I certainly prefer to hearsomething about apple or amazon than I do hearing from something from theEnergizer bunny. So Patrick, this has been fantastic to know about yourprimal branding book, I know there was another book you wanted to talk aboutin order to get our audience familiar with it to, do you want to talk aboutthat a little bit? Sure, so primal branding, just so people know isrequired reading at Youtube has been for several years, so when people stars,celebrities, companies go to youtube and asked how can we create billionviews and they are sent to primal...

...branding or at least if they're notsent to it there, the people had youtube refer to the principles thatyou just, I heard about one of those people is Darrell leaves at so there'sa culture or a mini tribe of Youtubers who teach other Youtubers how to useprimal branding. One of those people is Darrell leaves E v E S. He has a newbook out that just came out called the Youtube Formula, which I wouldrecommend to everyone because in here, Daryl is, I just asked him last theother day if he was felt he was an analytics person or a creative personand he said, well a creative person because who wouldn't want to be acreative person rather than an analytics person. But anyway thenumbers cruncher but the but Darryl is a multiple threat. He does bothexcellently. And he also uses Primal and he has written a new book calledYoutube formula where he goes into not only how to use Youtube's analytics Andwork with those algorithms rather than try to hack them, which does not work,which ultimately fails, but he a chapter 18 and devotes to primalbranding because he used primal too create the record breaking crowdfunding.Some broke all records and raised over $10 million in crowdfunding usingprimal Code creation story, create icons, rituals, sacred words,nonbelievers and leader to do that. I will say it is you mentioned it beforethe pre interview and I was like yes, I actually have this book, I've read thisbook and it is a fantastic book. Anybody who's getting into video periodeven if it's not, youtube needs to read the book, there's a lot that goesbeyond youtube. But of course anything youtube is like if anybody's getting toyoutube then this is like gonna be the bible. I thought the discussion, wholediscussion of how we used social media and not just do too by the way, but howit integrates with how we used facebook and instagram and I'm leaving somethingout. But anyway, the other social media as well is a perfect example of how youdistribute code across social digital and traditional media by the wayincludes not just television advertising on tv but outdooradvertising. Pr and so forth. So email Patrick, this has been a greatinterview where can people connect with you online, Primal branding dot CeoAlso we have a pretty good I think instagram at primal branding and you bethe judge and follow us please. And then of course those, I think those arethe two, but we also write on medium and I used to write for Forbes but Igot tired of that writing for medium now and yeah, google me Patrick, hanlon,H A N L O N Yeah, fantastic. Thanks again for joining me on GDP growth. Ohthanks a lot dan. It's been great pleasure being here. Thanks so much.

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