B2B Growth: Your Daily B2B Marketing Podcast
B2B Growth: Your Daily B2B Marketing Podcast

Episode 1653 · 4 months ago

Turn Your Story Into Your Competitive Advantage with Dave Gerhardt

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

In this episode Benji talks to Dave Gerhardt, Founder of DGMG and author of Founder Brand: Turn Your Story Into Your Competitive Advantage.

In this wide-ranging conversation Dave provides practical mindset shifts around content marketing and walks us through 3 pivotal steps for establishing a Founders brand.

Conversations from the front lines of marketing. This is be to be growth. Welcome in to today's episode of be to be growth. Today I'm joined by Dave Gerhart, founder of DGMG, former marketing execuet drift and Privy Dy've welcome into the show. Yeah, thanks for having me, Ben Jim. I'm happy to be here. Yeah, you'r you got me fresh off the audiobook recording and so I might. If you just want me to read the audiobook for forty minutes, I could do that if you'd also like. Your Voice is like lower. You're coming in with that author mentality and the vocals. Yeah, no, you know what, it's actually funny. My voice is actually I never wore headphones doing podcasts and I always feel as I was yelling or talking over people, and I've found that monitoring my voice actually makes me a much more tolerable speaker, as you obviously can probably understand. Yeah, I definitely can. I am very loud by nature, so I'm sorry if I come in super loud in your head, but I definitely resonate with that. I wear the headphones, I hear my voice in my head I'm like, Whoa, this is a little different. But so congratulations is in order the new book. It's out. It's called founder brand. Turn your story into your competitive advantage. So congratulations. Thank you. It's still a number one book on Amazon and Marketing Right now, which is a which is pretty cool. I wish I had more reviews. I guess there's a whole strategy that I could have done to get reviews on launch day and I know marketing people are listening to this. So that's the only reason why I'm sharing this this level. This where want then to help. But but it's awesome. It's been a fun week and it's cool to see people with like a's cool to now see that like that order day was cool, but now I'm sorry to see pictures of like people sending the book and it's really cool. Thanks. HMM. Yeah. So today what we want to do is we want to walk through the book in its sense. The marketing strategy that you used to help drift become one of the fastest growing SASS companies of all time and achieve a over a billion dollar valuation set the scene for us because it also sets the scene for the book. But how did you come across this marketing strategy? Yeah, I mean I think that the drift, like I use that drift example because it like titles nice and it's like a sexy, like click battish title. But, like, I think looking back like this helped privy when I was there for Eddie Year and for your and a half, and it's even been like the underlying kind of playbook that I've been subconsciously running for myself, yeah, building my own thing and in the marketing space, and so I think it's more about, like, look, I think most people still, from a business perspective, under rate or use social media improperly. They still kind of discount podcasts because everybody's has one, and they still discount storytelling, which is like look, my book is not about publishing on...

Linkedin five times a day and like you will magically grow. Like this whole thing works a hundred million times better when you have something interesting to say. And so when I went to drift, it was like this amazing career opportunity because I got this founder who's wellknown in a cool space. He kind of already has a following and I know podcasting and I know social media and he wants to say things and challenge beliefs and put a new point of view in the world. It was like wow, these ingredients are really powerful and they worked like magic to help grow drift in the early days. And that magic is not like a growth heck word, just like. It was just amazing combination. We created a podcast that had nothing to do with the product that we were selling and the podcast was the thing that like created our initial audience and built like these these super fans. And I give it a shout out in the book, but there's a guy named Henry who was like a early, early drift customer and Drift Super Fan, and I talked about the the like how, when you do this, you when you have a story and you're on social media, you have pockets and you create super fans, not just SASS customers, but like super fans. Henry, who was early drift customer, he invited me to his wedding and we've stayed in touch. His fiance. Yeah, he end up getting engaged to this girl, Chrissie, and Chrissy like helps me with so much dgmg stuff and so like. That's not a it's not a made up story. But and we're be tob software company, like you know who should be super fans of that? Nobody, and I think that's the that's the opportunity is like it's a storytelling, it's the using social media and ultimately, what I saw at drift and we, and I think we really did a good job of this, was we didn't need other people to write about us in order for us to get our message out there. And so, like, we never had a PR agency that helped us do all this stuff. We never had an outsourced content agency that helped us do all this stuff. It was because we had a story and we had our own publishing channels that, like, when we wanted to do a product launch, we wrote a blog post about it, we emailed our list about it, we tweeted about it, and I just lived this this last week and launching my book. Like I don't have a PR team. I've been literally in my sweatpants in my house doing podcast interviews. How did you and I get connected? Right, like I reach out to Djmg Peete community member to say hey, if anybody would love to have me on their podcast, I'd love to do it because I'm launching a book. And on launch day I sent an email to like the twelvezero people on my email list and now I'm following up on opportunities from that. I didn't I didn't have some like PR pitch that like I hoped tech crunch would pick up and write about, and I think more companies can tap into this playbook and that's like really what we talked about in the book. Yeah, it's so interesting because there is this thought process, I call everyone has a podcast now or everyone's doing this and but in honestly, I mean in the Bob Space maybe, you know, you see the top twenty percent maybe doing it, but there's so many people who are interested from afar not executing on it. There's so much more space for interesting perspective. Yeah, well, okay, say there. You said like how there's so much competition. I was I was thinking of because I tried to give you a drift example and think about drift the...

...same time. Like one of the cool lessons that I learned from the guys that drift was like just because a market is crowded doesn't mean you shouldn't go into it. In fact, because the market is crowded, you already have one of the biggest things there, which is like there's demand there's there's need, and so, like you could look at it and say, well, they're people clearly listen to podcast. And so what's my angle? What's the what's the unique opportunity that I have? And I talked a lot about in the book, about like the power of a niche. MMM, like this podcast that you're on is not the growth podcast where you talk about how to grow businesses. You talked very specifically to like be to be SASS businesses. Yep, and that and that's why it works. And so I like and as a marketing person, I actually think that that's the fun part. It's like great, everybody says there are there's already a million podcasts out there. How are you going to create a different one? It's the unique point of view and you it takes time, right to develop your voice, and it's the storytelling piece, which is a huge I mean that's the whole first chunk of your book. So it's like Perfectlydan, because you have these really three levels to creating a founder brand that I want to I want to walk us through. But before we even get there, is there like an approach, something you really like gearing toward it, like when you're thinking of a founder brand? Are you gearing this towards start up specifically? Do you think it's more broadly applicable even for companies that are, you know, founders, that are more already have established companies? What's your thought there? I think the benefits can be I think any of those scenarios that there can be benefit. But yeah, for me, my kind of experience has been in the thing that I love, is like in the building, in like the creation stage, and so I think of it as like it's so hard to start a business and to get product market fit or get initial traction and get product market fit and and jump start that thing. My point of view is like everyone just kind of goes instantly to like market the features and benefits of that product, and I understand why. You you have customers, they have pains, they have needs, right, but like what I found is like that create like when you do the founder brand thing, you can kind of get some wind at your back and some air cover, and I know a lot of people will roll our eyes at that word, but but it really works because when people have heard of you, like who's going to be who's which outbound sales rep is going to be better the outbound sales rep who's doing outreach for a company no one's ever heard of or a company that everyone's heard of and now they're knocking one are, and so I think, I think that it can just get in a world where you need every advantage you can create a start this business and get traction. I think building the founder brand is a good one. But even at like I went to privy and they had five hundred thousand people using their product and they were close to, I guess, like ten million in revenue. But been as a founder, didn't didn't, he hadn't done a ton of things, and so you know, we saw benefit from when he started to do that. And I'm sure you could make the case that there's a origin five hundred CEO whatever. But the thing that I love is startups and I love, and I don't just even me and tech startups. I just love, love people that have chosen like build their...

...own thing and are doing their own thing and they're they're trying to build something from nothing. I love that phase of it and so the book that I wrote was really to it's it's to help those people find and find an advantage and think about a different playbook that they might not have thought about. Also, in the earlier stages of a company is when that can give you the greatest advantage because right, Yep, like why would I buy from this company? And I'm like, Oh, actually, I found out that Benji actually has been in this has has had this thing in his family for twenty years and like he has kind of got always been doing this thing and now he started the company. So like they can give you credibility at as you're doing it right, like and so I think it's like it's one of the non obvious ingredients. And I've also found that, like a lot of founders, the reason they start the business is because they have that story or they have some deep pain or passion or had some big insight, and there's usually some why. Like rarely as the founder like oh I hello, I'm Dave and I started this business because I want to get wealthy, because business is business is to it's too hard. And usually it's like no, this is toby and he's an engineer and he's actually also into snowboarding and they want to sell snowboards online. But he ended up like it was really hard to do that, but he's a really badass engineer, and so he built his own platform and like Holy Shit, now other people can sell snowboards online and that company becomes shopify. And so I think most often founders have some type of story like that, which makes for just like great marketing, you know, content that you can use. So when you think of storytelling, I guess like what's vital in the founder story? And then where do you feel like you could just cut the fat, so to speak, because I feel like there's so many aspects to someone, and I I mean we could broadcast anything about the founder right, right, but there's got to be a cohesive story. A bit. What are the things that you want to talk about? What things do you want it? What things can you talk about credibly that are going to be interesting to your potential dream customers, and isolating those one or two things down and then like kind of just channeling, like those are your two talk tracks that you're just thinking about. This is what will be known for. Yeah, and so like with David a drift, it was like, okay, this guy, drift is his fifth company and he's done a bunch of startup things and he's had a bunch of acquisitions. And so like one of his big talk tracks is going to be startups and entrepreneurship and product great, okay, so let's focus in those areas. Let's talk about those things. What's he writing about that? What perspective does he have about those things? What what's interesting happening in this word, because you can't just say you're those things, but then you never have anything to like bring to the conversation as a publisher. And so he was like prolific at like tweeting and just you know kind of those. He would tweet something about like how he hates product managers that have mb are. Do you never hire a product manager that has an MBA? And that tweet just like cause the shit storm and it was awesome. Yeah, and so from that tweet it was like well, people, clearly this topic struck nerve. Let's go create more about this.

And so we did a podcast episode on that and then we turn it into a video and we did an article. And so think you have to Chanlie and and also on the other side that he other side was like, okay, well, that's that's great, he can build the audience startups, entrepneurship, but we're in the sales and marketing space, and so he's also got to be talking about his experience over the last twenty years in sales and marketing. And so I think there are lots of different angles to tell your to tell the story, and even in a book like mine it's Toff to give like formulaic advice because there's just marketing is often, like any greet, an exercise and just like finding different ingredients that you have. But I think you got to be able to isolate like one or two categories are things that you want to talk about that will help you begin to attract like minded people in your niche. One of my favorite ingredients is having an identifying a villain or an enemy and really building on that, because you can build great content off of that and it gives you clear I mean any good story right. I'm sure I don't know what your favorite movie is, but all the movies that we enjoy there's a clear villain or enemy that it works so well in content. So how did you identify that? When you think of a founder story and really building off of villain or an enemy? I mean the identification was because just observing what what makes good stories right and I think so often we get into our world of like bdb marketing and like, but we don't we don't think about what what an actual like, what would an actual good story be? We were like, no, I got to do what? This is a Beeb marketing thing in where enterprise, cyber security, whatever. But if you zoom all the way out, and I think what I learned at trip was like just kind of first principles about like we're going to try to find a way to be interesting to people first, and when it comes to people, creating a villain allows you to kind of have some like shared cause and shared enemy or thing you're rallying around. But like a villain and there's every story has a villain. But the villain doesn't have to mean like, you know, your competitor or some like arch enemy, like a drift. We created a villain that was fake, fake, its no forms are. Our villain was lead forms right. And like if I could go hard, to go really hard with an angle for this book and say that my villain is PR agencies who charge twenty grand a month and don't deliver you the results at the book will. or it could be like I'm really into golf and there's this really cool, this great podcast that I've been listening to you lately, called them chasing scratch, and it's about these two guys who are in their s and have kids and they're trying to get better at golf and so like their villain is just like time and being mediocre, and that's like a thing that we can all rally around. And so I think it's more about like creating a shared cause that you and your customer can, like your ideal customer, can rally around and surprise, you're the one that's going to help them tackle this this perceived villain. HMM. Yeah, having that heroes journey in a sense, in your marketing man it can help move and create...

...momentum and in unique ways. I'm going to check out that podcast. That sounds super interesting. That's like such an important lesson you mentioned. If you really want to geek out in this, Google Joseph Campbell. Yes, journey right, because that's the real answer to like you know, he goes back through history and philosophy and basically breaks down like hey, look, stories have been the thing that just like connect people forever and there's some natural ingredients at all these stories have and so if I'm going to start a business, I'm going to think about how can build around that. Why would you not use that tier advantage? Yep, there's a lot there. So enjoy the digging. Enjoy listening to Joseph Campbell explain things, because he is a master at it and he'll draw some conclusions you maybe didn't see coming. Okay, so, level to content and publishing, there's a lot here. Part of the unique story that you unique situation you were placed in as someone that had a large twitter following already, so like fortyzero followers. You obviously wanted to leverage that. How did twitter start to fuel the podcast? And then what is the podcast kind of be come from there? Because I think that from twitter to podcast and beyond is an interesting jumping off point for us. Sure, so David had a lot of so this is like an like, you know, an exercise of like thinking. This is the fun part of marketing. Is like, okay, I got to achieve this goal. How am I going to do that? Well, didn't really have a budget. We raised a bunch of money, but they're like, you don't have a budget yet and no product yet. Right, no product it. So we had lots of money in the bank, but it wasn't to be used to to play marketing. They were like figure it out without money and then you might get some money later. And so it's like okay, well, what are the ingredients? And one of the things that they bet on was like David's social following. However, it wasn't like, oh, he just tweets out a link to a drift Webinar and like people sign up and like that's how the business was built. Is like people, people don't want to just be sold to and then they don't want promotional stuff. And so with him it was like wow, just seeing the stuff he would put out. He'd always wanted to question beliefs and share interesting takes, and so his twitter was what had grown. First we started the podcast basically off of twitter, because he had this idea. He's like, I want to do a podcast. You know, he's obsessed with learning and all the stuff, and he had this he's like, I want to start this podcast called seeking wisdom, where I talked about books and I talked about, you know, lessons from building the company and whatever, rants on marketing and sales and and so I was like great, I'll help you do the podcast. I know how to do it, I got gear. Let's go. So and he had already been tweeting a bunch, and so we were like in any had followers, and so I was like, okay, just here's a topic that like kind of took off on twitter. Let's make that your first podcast episode. But he went into the room. He would try to record it by himself and he's like, I can't, I can't just sit in here by myself and like talk, and I didn't want to insert myself like this random twenty year old marketer in my late twenties, like I'm not gonna be like, let me be your cohost. Man Like it, because they who wants to hear for me. So I end up starting to just try to interview him because I'm like,...

...let me interview you about this topic and we'll cut me out and make it. But our conversations became very like real and I was learning from him and we're at different points of our career, and so were we ended up like creating this podcast and calling and seeking wisdom and launching and we interview each other and it was driven by twitter because he already had that audience there. We had a sense of like what topics people are interested in, and so in the book I talked about like I don't talk about Tick Tock, I don't talk about instagram and talk about Youtube. I'm the biggest believer in all those platforms, but from from building your brand as a founder, I just think that the twitter and Linkedin give you the best opportunity to succeed, because it's all you need to be successful as text. You can post often, you can get really quick feedback, and so, like with David likes through twitter. Then he would post like a eat would he would send me. Like on Instagram he post a picture of like a book he was reading and like twenty people message him and they're like what book is this and he's like we should do book reviews. Awesome. So we we started doing book reviews and the book reviews started to become really popular. They're like our most popular episodes. We we felt that when we did a book review we would get the most DMS and reviews and emails after that. And so the stuff that I'm talking about right now, this is like the whole book. This is what the book is about. It is and this is what people don't understand. It's like there's not some spreadsheet, there's not some like one metric. It's like so much of the value about being on social media and and and and becoming a publisher like this is this feeling. Is like there wasn't some spreadsheet like number analysis that said, like do more podcasts about books. It was like when we did one, we got more responses like, Holy Shit, let's do more book content. And I think the cool part that we got to feel was because he already had that audience built up on social media, we're able to get like feedback on those ideas quickly. And when I talk about getting feedback on ideas, I don't mean that you're like going to social media and like asking necessary like Hey, what should I do a podcast on? But when he shared like his daily routine and how he you know, he does X, Y Z, he got a bunch of more messages and than usual. Okay, can we take that into and make it into something more, and I think that's like this. The really powerful part about social media is that you can, you can message test really quickly without having to spend a dollar and without even have to do it like consciously and you kind of get direct feedback from your dream customers and then you can use that as a indicator to go and create other things. And so then we did the podcast. We turned twitter into a podcast basically, and then from seeking wisdom our podcast, we did, however, many episodes of that we could see the different topics that were popular and look at look at it on a bigger scale. And so then we wanted to do an event. And so when we went to do the event, not that it was perfect, but we had a better sense of like what things people would be interested in because we'd already even publishing on these on these other channels, and we built smaller audiences on other channels. And so I'd much rather be in that situation then like...

...here's an ex budget for event, figure out what to program the event and hope it hope that it works. Like I'm kind of betting on on like things that we've already tested in some in some way, and I think a lot of people just don't understand that it. It doesn't have to be some like scientific test that you're doing. Like content creation is ultimately about. It's a little art in science and you got to be able to be there, and it's why I talk about you can't just outsource social media to your to the intern is, because you have to be there, like in the comments in your inbox, feeling it lit, hearing the podcast reviews, seeing what people are saying. That's when everything clicks. I talked to a CEO last week who's a super analytical CEO, and he's like, I've been doing our podcast for sixty seven episodes. I couldn't tell you, Roy, but every day he's like, we can never stop doing this podcast because every week I'm getting an email, I'm getting an Intro, and so he's someone who, like typically, would have normally analyze the hell out of that podcast. He's like no, I just I know that it's working because I'm doing it, I'm on social media, I'm seeing the inbound stuff that's coming back from it. I think that's why it's such a important part that, like, you're actually there. It's not the the the advice in this book is not like hey, write a bunch of content, schedule and buffer and like you will build a brand. That's not that's not what it is. You have to be there for the whole part. Hey, everybody Olivia here. As a member of the sweet fish sales team. I wanted to take a second and share something that makes us insanely more efficient. Our team uses lead Iq. So for those of you who are in sales or sales ups, let me give you some context. You know how long gathering contact data can take so long, and with lead Iq, what once took us four hours to do now takes us just one. That is seventy five percent more efficient. We are so much quicker withoutbound prospecting and organizing our campaigns is so much easier than before. I suggest you guys check it out as well. You can find them at lead iqcom. That's L EA D iqcom. Already, let's jump back into the show. It's resonance. That's the word that kept just going off in my head while you're saying that, because when you're actually in the space, you know what's resonating with other people. And then, I mean any good marketer, but any any empathetic, normal human, but I'm right, just starts to see, oh, like this is, this is a conversation that resonates with people, and let's go further down this road together and we can create even more helpful content. What do you think, from the days of seeking wisdom, was the biggest lesson you learned? Dave, there are many. Just give me like the first one that comes to mind. I think the power of authenticity in marketing and the power of nondirect mart it's really like the power of nondirect marketing channels when you do them right, if I can explain that. What I mean is like, if we set out to start a podcast that was going to fuel our first a hundred sales, drift sales like it would have failed. It wouldn't have because what with strategy...

...you'd have to take to do that would not help you actually attract any customers or be interesting. But it was because it was like this, this thing was completely separate. It was like the CEO wanted to do a podcast, so we're doing a podcast. Nobody's spreadsheeting this, and that's why it was good, because it was never like we got this many at downloads last week and so we need to do this. It was like we had a great topic, we had chemistry, we had engaged listeners and we did it because it was interesting content and we enjoyed doing it, and that worked to by the way, these people happen to be associated with this company, drift. When we go to sell something later there are going to going to know, like and trust us. And so the hard part about, like writing about social media and content is that a lot of people take this advice and they just like what you say matters and the strategy used to create that content matters. And so it's not like, yeah, if you, Hey, you, if you're just promoting your own webinars a bunch on your podcast and you're wondering why nobody's listening and you're not getting the same reaction that seeking wisdom did, that I could tell you why. Wrong. Heart wrong, why wrong starting place? I mean it is, it's non transferable, right like that's those are things that resonate at a deeper level that. Yeah, we all know podcasts or content we've consumed. That's like in the Bob Space. That clearly had a motive behind it to get just get the sale and you're not going to engage with it. I've been there, I've done that, I do that and that's okay. But I think like what actually works to if you really want to grow something, is is to separate those things and it just gets hard because you get inside of a company and you got all these competing priorities and and this and that. But I also think like people don't take a step back and say, like, hold on, which of the let's use podcasting acts as an example, like which of the pot? Like I got a lot of things going on. which in the podcast do I actually listen to? Okay, these two, and why? And I think so often we just like get in this like cycle, just like creating more stuff, verse thinking about the Hook, and it seems still to be like on a marketing pockets and be like think about the hook. But why? Why is somebody actually going to take an hour out of their day and listen to like the B toob growth podcast or whatever? I think when we created seeking wisdom, it was like very selfish. Is Like we're helping people get smarter, get better, and we're having fun doing it, and I think that's what creates an actual connection. And so, whether you sell to finance or HR or sales or cyber security or whatever, it's like before like think about what if you had a dream budget and dream dream budget, Dream Team, dream whatever, and the mission was like create the number one thing for these people. What would you create and how would you do it? Because it wouldn't be the like. Well, every third episode we're actually going to sprinkle in a product demo because a sales team would really like that. Really, that's not your favorite podcast? That sounds like mine. How about after the ten episode, we can't we get email address is from all these listeners...

...and can we just sell to to like we could just put them, you know, send them a invite to next webinar. And I'm not mocking, like I've done all those things. And sometimes you do. Hey, you do act like you want to keep your job, you want to get promoted. I like I struggle with some. Sometimes marketing advice becomes a little bit like holier than now. It's like, look, I want to drive business results and revenue from marketing, but I'm talking about like it's not surprising that most of these things don't take off for companies when they're rooted in that right and that this is a different strategy of that can work, but it's just deeper in the funnel and it's a different, different place, different different time, different place. HMM. I want to go back to something you said earlier before we move on, because you mentioned twitter and Linkedin as good starting places, simply because it's written. Word. I would have imagined any sort of approach like this where a founder is extremely public like that. I mean even being on a podcast, if it's just audio, like maybe more founders would be into that, but it could feel like it's a certain personality type thing. But you would say even on twitter and Linkedin, like get to publishing, even if it's just written and it's not video, like. You would encourage that, right. Have you ever seen Darmesh from hup spot? HMM, you know he is. Yeah, I do. He will tell you and everything. He's like, I'm the most introverted person ever. That guy is prolific on social media. Yep, and that's one. The other thing is, like, if you're the founder of this company, you're probably, I would hope, communicating a lot internally, the a email, via slack, via Wiki va or whatever, writing to investors, like you are. You are doing that in some form, and so sure you don't have to be like you and me and be comfortable on camera and doing a podcast, but I would say that you're probably, because I'm also not talking about like writing fiction novels, right, like I'm saying, like take, what I'm saying is like the stuff that you're already writing about most of the time is going to be interesting at help and be helpful to build your credibility and trust as a brand. Okay, so, if you were starting from scratch right now, what would you prioritize? What would be the questions that you're asking yourself, like Dave Care Heart one point, oh, all over again. What what comes to mind? If this is actually right now, right now, I would prioritize tick tock a hundred percent, especially in B tob and if I had more time right now, I would do it. But I'm I think it's a perfect example of like what content or people obsessed with and really interested in, and what content is like most of the music that people are listening today is is like debuting on Tick Tock. Like what? What's The music that's popular right now? Is Popular because of tick tocks with then, no, I don't need I'm not like, I'm not trying to be like Gary V and, like, you know, explain how how important tick tock is, but what I'm saying is, like I think it is that and it's still nobody's using it in a be to be per in a be to be context, and so like. If I was a be to be start up right now or something, I would, I think, first, beyond my advice ice in the book, is like where the what platforms...

...can you be successful on? and to me that starts with, like, what are the opportunities in my industry? And if nobody's doing it, could you build an audience faster there than on other channels? And then the second order from there would be like, but what are my natural strengths and talents and do I have the means to be successful, like on that channel, right, and so like, if you have no budget, then like, are you going to be able to spend five grand a month and have a video producer like make make fifty videos for you and create tick tocks off? Probably not. And so what? Where can you get the most amount of feedback the fastest? And that that is why I say, like, you know, twitter and Linkedin, because I think you can build up. The barrier entry is so low that might take you a while to build up a following, but like the distance between, like you signing up, you signing up for twitter and writing your first tweet is probably much shorter than like you come creating a company, Tick Tock, channel and like and creating your first video. Yeah, most feedback fastest. I like that. Yeah, most feedback fastest. That's the advantage in marketing. That's like the game. That's, to me, like the powerful thing about have about building audience and and online marketing days, the quicker you can get feedback, you can understand what to do and what and what not to do and what people interested in. Well, as we start to wrap up, anything else you want to highlight from this strategy, any let kind of last words before before we close it out here. No, close it out. I'm ready for whatever you want to talk about. Close it out. All right. Well, beside checking out the book, Dave, where should people stay connected to you? And, yeah, give us, give us a rundown. People get the book on Amazon. Some people they light's ridiculous. I they launch books and they have like a hundred reviews on launch day and I should you still on the review thing. I'm still on that. I love it. I love this whole conversation. He's he's just been in his head about those reviews and in book, the Second Book, I'm fine with how many I have. That's not the issue. I'm just like I feel like I as a marketer. The the marketer and me, was like I missed the key. I missed a key ingredient before launched. Dang it, and I but that's okay. It's kind of good to hear you say like, Oh, I missed something, because I'm sure for other people like Oh, that's it's kind of Nice to see you. It's into scen area. He can affert one. I miss so many things because anybody that's actually work with me will know I am the least like system process, like playbook, and like through launching the book. I work with a company, obviously to like create the book part of it, because I'm not a logistics expert and all that. But like they were really kept checking in, like hey, you know, what's your marketing strategy for this going to be by B Blah, and I was like, I am going to send out a couple of emails about it, like leading up to the book, and if I get out of any other ideas, like I might just do them. Like I'm very like spontaneous and so like I bought some billboards one time and then like I went for like four weeks without talking about the book and then I was like, Oh, shoot, book lunch is coming up, I should talk about it more. So I wish I was like that, that planned out and had like this like spreadget of all this stuff that I but I don't and I'm just lucky that we've...

...we've got here. So we've gotten here so far. Yeah, I I love when people sort of not I mean, obviously it's more than this, but like stumbling into something is a big part of marketing, right like this. That's what you were just saying about seeking like seeing wisdom. Like that whole podcast is you stumbling into an opportunity with conversation that then turns into something more and then you just see it and go for it. So that's awesome and I love it. But it also speaks to like it also speaks like what we talked about in the book. Like I've built up a small audience and that's the people that I wrote the book for and I figured that they would buy the book. And so if those people are already on my email list, the people that I want to buy the book are the ones on my email list. I I don't I don't care about selling x million copies of the book. Like I wanted to create a book for the people that for those people, and I didn't send send them an email about it, like I wish. I wish there's some crazy like marketing chatty behind it, but there's not. Well, you have it, I think, in the correct order and because, I mean I also I talked to smath Ors, I talked to a lot of different people, but people come out with books in order to, Oh my God, things that they feel like are attached versus. What I would commend you on is when you do in this order, where it's like Hey, I'm got this thing that I've already done and I know I have some followers who would really benefit from this additional resource. It changes the mindset and again, it keeps your why pure, and that's the same with a podcast world, where it's like, if you want to successfully focus on your content, then can't have it out of order. So we're like reinforcing our whole conversation. Well, yeah, and like what's cooled, like yeah, which you just broke down and says like why we've connected on this. It like that says that's really what the book is about. Hmm, is like you doing that, and so, like whatever I want to do, if I want to build a golf company and sell golf products in the future, I think my belief at least, is that the best way to do that would be like first build an audience, and so I'm going to I would start with content and like two years before I'd have the the podcast and everything. And so, yeah, which is so funny, you mentioned that some someone Dm to me in you know, whatever you get in your twitter GM's, and someone DM knew is like, I have a question about you know, how much money do you make off this book? And I was like, first of all, the happens all the time, nothing new. Yeah, hell, Hey, what's your how do you parent your second child, like anyway or whatever? That would there. What's your social sucreer number? But this this person said, I how much money did you make off the book? And he wasn't asking for a dollar around. He just has like Oh, it's a hundred percent. I've self publishing it, so it's so it's mine. He's like awesome, yeah, I'm just you know, I'm really thinking about book building as like a revenue strategy and I was like, well, look, if you want to make money, don't. Don't write a book like the book. Would not be the strategy to do it. I was like the only reason why I was able to sell books, and I don't even care if I sell books beyond this point, like I've sold a bunch of books already to that existing audience. That's why I wrote the book. And I was like, you know, focus on building an audience. Like the thing that allowed me to have the book...

...to sell was building an audience. This is also a business book. This is also business book. Would that? Should that? Would that be the strategy if you were an amazing writer and you were writing a novel or some fiction book? No, it's it's different. But but I think in this context, building the the audience first, and I'd even talked about in the book how much I was able to like pressure test some of the ideas, including the title, including the you know, Tim Ferris talked about like early and like the four hour work week, where he used to use like early days of like add words when it was like really easy to tell he would. He used add words like test titles of his books. MMM, and what's even cooler about that now is like now tim has a humongous audience. He can basically fool prove any idea he wants to do in the future by just learning through the community, and I did that in a very, very small way with this book and I think it's just a really powerful thing. It's not go spend a million dollars on ads to do it. It requires like a story and creativity, and that's the stuff that I love. The tangents are my favorite part of podcasting, man. So I'm glad we went there here at the end because I think it sums up so much of the heart of what we're driving at, and so I'll just say again for people, name of the book, founder, brand, turn your story into your competitive advantage. You can go grab it on Amazon. Dave Garrehart, thank you for being on BB growth. Yeah, thanks, Benjie. It's fun. You're a good host and I've enjoyed talking you whereas having conversations like this. So if you haven't subscribed to show you can do that. Stay connected to us. I would love to hear from you have conversations on business and marketing and life over on Linkedin and keep doing work that matters. Will be back real soon with another episode. For BB marketing leaders, it can sometimes feel like you're on an island. Now more than ever, it's important for us to be connected with our peers enter marketing squad. It's the sweet fish take on community and it offers be to be marketing leaders an opportunity to share and grow. Learn more by reaching out to our community manager, Diana Mitchell at Diana dot Mitchell at sweet fish Mediacom.

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