B2B Growth: Your Daily B2B Marketing Podcast
B2B Growth: Your Daily B2B Marketing Podcast

Episode 2069 · 5 months ago

Steps for Thought Leadership with Huge or Tiny Budgets

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

In this episode, Dan Sanchez talked to Matthijs Van den Broek who is the head of Thought Leadership for WUA about what thought leadership can look like on a tiny or massive budget.

They discuss:

  • Matthijs' experience creating thought leadership for WUA for 5+ years
  • What he would do if he had to start over from scratch at a small company
  • What he would do if his boss 10x his budget

Yeah, welcome back to BBB growth, I'm danSanchez, friends call me dan says and I'm here with Matthew Van den broek,who is the head of Thought Leadership at Woah and today I'm continuing thejourney into the topic of Thought leadership marketing. If you're justjoining us in this deep dive we're doing in the month of june today thenjust know that I've, if you haven't been following me to be growth for awhile, it's like I've been fascinated with this idea of thought leadershipand I've been waiting just to do a deep dive on an interview practitioners,interview vendors, interview experts and interview actual thought leaders aswell as probably give a few thoughts of my own along the way. I think thistopic is very divisive, People don't like this topic sometimes, but a lot ofpeople are still looking for it are still asking about it and that'sbecause honestly I find that thought leadership is really important. Itreally works especially And AB two B context. Yet there's a lot of peoplewho would say that thought leadership isn't even a thing that it's reallyjust expertise that it's just a buzzword and I'm trying to do thisthought leadership journey to really unpack that to dig into it. I thinkit's more than that and I think it's really powerful. So actually today I'mtalking to Matthew who's been in it for five years at his company, Being fulltime thought leadership marketer, he's been doing it, he's not necessarilyeven like the subject matter expert but he's responsible for making sure he'spositioning his company as a thought leader in this space of I believedigital is a digital communication benchmarking, Matthew digitalexperiences that, right, so it's digital experience, it'll experiencedbenchmarking which is fascinating, could be its own show in itself. Buttoday we're here to just talk about thought leadership. So Matthew, welcometo the show. Thanks for having me then. Much appreciate it. Absolutely. I wasjust talking to him about what we're gonna be talking about in thisinterview and what I stumbled upon, what I'm fascinated to kind of unpackis what being five years into this position or for over five years and I'mcurious to hear what Matthew would do if he had almost no budget and wasstarting over from scratch as well as like if it was times of plenty and hewas, if Ceo walked into his office and been like Matthew I'm going to 10 xyour budget, give us the best bang for our buck as far as thought leadershipis just concerned because it's working and I want 10 times more maybe they hadjust landed around a VC funding and knew that this was the route theywanted to go, what would that look like. So, but let's start off on the smallend Matthew, if you were starting over at a small, maybe tech tech company andyou were tasked with creating thought leadership for them company, I'd beinterested to hear what would be some of the first couple of steps you wouldtake in order order to get that started. Yeah. So I would definitely, if you, ifyou have to start small and have limited budget, you definitely start bylooking around what, what's already there. So the human capital that isalready within the organization and...

...that you might want to unlock andthat's also how I am, how I started at you are we just take a look at the dataand all the research that we already provide and see what stories arealready there and unleash those stories to uh, the most relevant public that wethat we could find. So I think if you want to start small and you havelimited budgets, you'll you'll start to see what what people already can do. Soyou see the talent, the talent that with the people who are on the, on thepayroll and you could definitely organize events or webinars or or smallknowledge platforms or communities on on linkedin. There's so much out therethat is free to go. But I think critical success factories, do you havecompelling and relevant content that people want to read or listen or watch?And that's where uh in my opinion, a great story and and good contentmarketing. Start it starts it all starts with great content and then uhthe distribution phase and the scaling up phase and the frequency phase ofyour of your most interesting articles. That's step two or step three or stepfour. That makes a lot of sense. So essentially you kind of go and do likean audit of the organization. You find out what content is already beenwritten that just hasn't maybe gotten enough exposure yet. What subjectmatter experts do we already have access to if we're going to be creatingthought leadership content. I'm curious to hear. Like is there a step you takebefore you go do that? But did you even find out like what the markets hungryfor? Um, what customers are asking about or what, what's considered eventhought leadership in that particular industry? If you're not a subjectmatter expert yet, it would be smart to, to start with. I think it would bestarting to start with buyer personas. So who are my customers and uh, whatpeople will I be doing business with? And what kind of or types of contentare they looking for? And we did that like uh with the revamp of our websitein January 2019, we decided to aim more on on the buyer personas so that sealevel and it's marketeers, that's also market researchers, it's you exercise.And it's also the web analytics uh kind of guys at this moment and girls ofcourse. So that would be uh smart to to talk to your sales people or people whohave a lot of customer contact. So how do how do you buy a personas look like?And what types of content are they interested in? So serve the righttarget audience with the right with the right message. That would be a goodstart when you when you want to craft...

For leadership program. And if youwanna, especially in B2B, you might want to have, you might have not wonjust one stakeholder, but multiple stakeholders before uh the seal thedeal is done, and you want to convince all those stakeholders that you're therelevant company and with the right tools to work with. So I think thatthat would be smart to do to diversify your your content before you start, uhpublishing it makes a lot of sense. So essentially we do a little bit of work,we established the personas, figure out what kinds of questions are asking,figure out what are the essentially, I guess what thought leadership, you'rereally looking for gaps in the knowledge, right? Because it's not yourthought leadership is usually a new idea, something that's pushing forwardthe boundaries that haven't existed before. Um So you're looking for gaps,you're looking for what's relevant to the customers and then um doinginventory of the company, establishing what pieces are we already providing.Because you don't want to have to reinvent the wheel and then getting, doyou like try to repackage those who just get them in front of people indifferent ways before you start creating new content? How does thatwork well if you were packaging? Yes. In a way. But the business we're intois is so customer experience benchmarking. It means we uh we comparesales funnels and we benchmark sales funnels and we tell our clients what isthe best the best sales for. Not there are the best customer journey there andwhat you can learn from your competitors in a way. So it's a it's akind of a mystery shopping on steroids, what we what we do and digital andstrategic decisions on on on budgets are made by sometimes by sea level, butC. Level people are more more into the strategic questions. And I want to havea management summer we've with clear KPs. But the market researcher uh theywant that the research is done in a proper way that it's uh that it's validthat it's trustworthy. It is repetitive and that the outcomes are just clearand and sure, so other uh we we we have a product that is suitable for alllayers who are working with Digital within the organization, but they'relooking at other aspects of our products. So we created in the past, wecreated uh storylines about digital excellence and the digital excellencepart really for the for the C. Level, people who are looking at Digital at amore strategic in a more strategic way. And they just they want to have the KPsgo up and I wanna see an uplift in uh...

...in online sales volumes. But how youhow the product works and how you how you can make a deep dive into whatcustomers are saying about your website uh compared to the competition. That'snot not directly relevant for those people. And if you know that, then youcan craft your message in in another way. And yes, that also means that uhsometimes you recycle content a bit because the message for the C. Levelpeople is also aspiring for the people working under the those uh sea level orour management boards. So definitely it's good to see what's already there.And also recycle it a bit. But you don't want to copy paste too muchbecause then if you copy paste too much, then you get not the SEO ranks and thefind ability that you that you want to have. So it's also a threat to uh torecycle too much, I think. Yeah, I do like, I mean, I like recycling contents.I find that people need to hear things over and over and over and over againbefore it sinks in, right? Especially if you have a really powerful concept.Yeah, but again, you have to mix it up a little bit, you know? So I love itthat you have all this research to pull from. Now. I'm curious to know like howdo you repackage it? What's your favorite, like, especially if you're ina low budget situation, do you try to get it into writing? Do you try to getit into video form? Infographic? Like what's kind of like your favoritemedium to go with? Just to start, wow, We're based in Amsterdam. So we're aDutch company founded by Dutch cheese. So my my favorite recycling istranslation, so I can publish the original content within the Dutchlanguage area, that's not, not too too big, but we're talking about 20 millionpeople or something or maybe a bit more. So if I translated to uh us English,then i it cost me uh some, but not not that many, and I have an originalcontent in my head, um it's, of course, of course it's exactly the same, but itdelivers me directly a broader, broader audience. And it also means that I cancan recycle it and have the double amount of use just by translating it.So that's the most, most easy part of content recycling and reusing a contentfrom my perspective. The other way is what we, but we also uh did the firststeps is we have a podcast since half year, or uh we did now nine episodes.And what I'm also trying to do is uh...

...get the most important and mostinteresting parts per topic out of the podcast and create white papers out ofout of bed. And that's what I I tried that with with external writer. Hisideas were really good, but I had to I still have to follow up on that on thatproject. But it's also really interesting because he proposed to addif there's any new episode on your podcast To also renew the white papersand publish it when it's like seven or 8 or nine pages long. And that's reallyinteresting from from recycling perspective because it just it's it's ait's a machine, it just keeps on feeding with new new pieces of originalcontent and I think original content and original ideas, be it that you havederived those original ideas from front runners in the digital industry. Sopersons or people you interview, just like we're doing now, that doesn'tmatter, That is what counts when you're we're talking about for leadership. Sothat's also really interesting. Uh and we also once created a book that we did,it did the interviews in Dutch, and I translated the whole book to uh toenglish, and uh we printed it in 2.5 1000 copies, but we also uh had itavailable for download in english on our website. So it's also created a lotof, a lot of leads, so that's also a way of uh of content recycling anddistribution and getting it together and then ripping it apart again. Soyeah, sometimes the smaller pieces of content add up to a bigger to a biggerpiece of content, and it can be a white paper or a book or or an event orseminar man, that's fascinating idea. Taking smaller pieces to make a biggerpiece. We usually do the opposite here sweet fish by taking a bigger piece,like a longer interview like this one and then break it up into a bunch ofsmaller pieces. But I can definitely see reverse engineering and going theother way. Yeah, that's actually something I'm thinking about doing thisseries is turning not a lot, I've done a lot of original research myself, buttaking parts of these interviews and turning it into a book that we createdas a sweet Fish playbook for thought leadership. But I'm already thinkingalong those lines and I think you shared this idea with me even last timewe talked way back in the fall, they kind of circle back around though too,picking channels to publish your thought leadership in. It sounds likeyou're mostly going with written content because it's easier to liketurn written content into different languages and then sometimes the audiocontent as a next next step for your, your channels. Um, I'd be curious toknow like if you're, if you're translating a lot of the writtencontent, are you also translating audio content? Like what language are yourecording in? And then are you posting...

...two episodes, one for different like orthree episodes one for different languages? Like how are you handlinglanguage when it comes to podcast? Yeah, So we don't subtitle the podcast. Whatwe do now is just recorded in english and that's it. We do it for the videoswe published on linkedin. So when a new study comes out, we, we present thestudy findings in a, in a dashboard and we present the high level findings ofthose of those study results in a short, uh, well a bit long at this moment, butwe're trying to bring it back in in time, video on, on Lincoln. And wesubtitled, uh, sometimes it's the, it's the languages in dutch and then wesubtitle it in a translation in, in english. But what we try to do most ofthe times is to directly record the video in uh, in english and then haveit subtitled also in english, so that people also can read uh, and don't haveto plug in the any, uh, any airports or something. We didn't reverse the audiofrom english to, to touch because that's a lot of effort for a smallerlanguage language area and I can, I can only make sense. I've had people ask meabout it and I'm like, I don't have a good answer on that, customers asked me,I've had a few people in Lincoln like, how do you deal with languages? I'mlike, I'm usually just doing english and distributing in english. That makessense. That I would want to try to figure how to do it um, in differentlanguages, I'm gonna have even wondered like if you're gonna distribute contentvia podcasting in different languages is better to have different episodes onthe same episode or even split it out into different podcasts is kind of athing. I would be interesting. It will be interesting to, to, I think that thespanish have not figured it out. Well, well, the spanish language area is ofcourse also really, really, really big. So it would be, maybe it would beinteresting also for you guys that beat, we grew up to do it in to have spanishepisodes. Why not? It's huge. But then then you also have to have people whoare who are natively or really, you got to think about your customer serviceteams and all that kind of stuff to work backwards and the languages, youknow, that's something you guys have to think about and you're probably alittle bit more but certainly symptom we're thinking more out here more. Sowe've kind of covered like what you would be doing in a smaller company ifyou're just getting started and what you're doing at your currentorganization. Um But I'd love to hear like if your boss walked in and gaveyou 10 X the budget to expand it, would you do something different or would youjust scale what you're currently doing and make it more like tell me aboutwhat that would look like? Yeah, I I think I would definitely scale whatwe're what we're doing because when I started at this company I I came fromuh I have a publishing and journalism background. So I really like thepublishing part of the whole media...

...media game. And I really see ourselvesalso really as a as a publisher of data and of qualitative. Really really goodand professional too high professional standards insights on digital customerexperience. So I I would definitely what I'd love is that everybody everycompany who wants to sell something online worked with us in the future. SoI would definitely scale what we what we do what we do now and increase thebudget for translations, increase the budget for editing. And I would reallylove to see are we now have research team of uh 11 digital researchconsultants. So there they studied neuropsychology or psychology oreconomics or or marketing and what we what we what I really would love isthat they can only have two that, that they can check the content that iscreated by by external riders, so that you can scale up all the, all thethings you already do and that, that just costs a lot of money to getprofessional riders who are skilled, who are flawless in their in theirenglish and you also, I don't wanna have to check on what they've written,but you just know that it's that it's good from a language perspective ofthem, and I would I would definitely scale the distribution part. So, whatwe now do is we, we advertise a lot on on linkedin and we targeted on specific,specific job job groups or on people who are in the industry of finance, inthe Netherlands, who are responsible for the mortgage or personal loanjourney. You can easily target them on, on linkedin. But there are all aroundthe planet. There are people who are doing that job at different banks andwe want to reach them with all our research because really relevant forthem, and if the data is not relevant for them, they should give us a call ordrop us an email and say, hey, can you do this study for me in Portugalbecause I want to have a data of my own, uh, of the country I'm responsible for.So the scaling up about everything we did in the last year was getting thecompany ready to ready to skill. So that is the mantra of this year. Andit's also for that, that's from the business perspective. So getting theorganization ready to uh, to maximize the amount of studies we do in the nextyear, but it's also for the, for the fault leadership efforts and for ourmessages. We uh, we push to the, to the world, I want to have more more of whatwe already do because it's really, I...

...think original research is the way togo to uh, to be, to be and stay relevant in this uh, in this era of, ofinfo overload. So, um, and what I would do is because that's really also tendsto be expensive in a way, uh, have more more on video marketing and create aYoutube channel and have it have it optimized for SEO purposes. And so thatwe can also be really that we can all that we get found more easily in whatis the biggest, the second biggest search engine of the world. And we,yeah, we tend to forget that Youtube is that's that, that Youtube is the secondbiggest search engine of the world and, and we now don't don't do a lot of Yeah,yeah, but we we we we don't have that at this moment. And it's also, ofcourse it's also priorities. But it's also uh, yeah, money and have an agencywho helps you with that for content. We have already a translation and editingagency helping us with that. Its content to its based in the Netherlandsand Amsterdam also, that's also already really nice in my idea of of of gettingskills that you have a flexible set of professionals who write better than you.That that you can just ask to write content piece X or Y and they just doit and deliver it on time and stick to their deadlines. I really love that.Yeah. Hey, everybody Logan with sweet fish here. If you've been listening tothe show for a while, you know where big proponents of putting out originalorganic content on linked in. But one thing that's always been a struggle fora team like ours is to easily track the reach of that linked in content. That'swhy I was really excited when I heard about Shield the other day from aconnection on, you guessed it linked in since our team started using Shield.I've loved how it's led us easily track and analyze the performance of ourlinkedin content without having to manually log it ourselves. Itautomatically creates reports and generate some dashboards that areincredibly useful to see things like what contents been performing the bestand what days of the week are we getting the most engagement and ouraverage views per post, I highly suggest you guys check out this tool.If you're putting out content on linked in and if you're not you should be.It's been a game changer for us. If you go to shield app dot ai and check outthe 10 day free trial. You can even use our promo code B two B growth to get a25% discount again. That's shield app dot Ai And that promo code is B thenumber two de growth. All one word. All right. Let's get back to the show. So Idefinitely hear you want to build a...

...writing team? Maybe have an editor canlike editing and kind of moderating that writing team. Right? Maybe a smallvideo team if if it was 10 X the budget. Right, definitely. Would you add like asubject matter expert to the mix that could do nothing but talk or would yougo and find just find external subject matter experts in order to get moredata from Or would you just depend on the benchmarks you already have? Ialmost wonder if like 10 x the budget, I'd almost be hiring someone that wasnothing but the idea guy or a girl, you know looking at the data and then justI pretty much just put a microphone in front of that person, just be like talkwill be turned into a lot of articles or something like that. Well uh if youif you take a look at how Forrester Research company did that in the lastyears. They had keynote speakers all over the, all over the place and whenthose keynote speakers became successful they left Forrester so it'sJeremiah o yang brian solis chillingly just burn off to name a few. They alluh that was the strategy of first to get the first message across and theydid nothing. They did exactly what you, what you said. And they also wereprincipal consultants, of course, so they did the probably, I don't know,I've never worked at first and also didn't talk to them the last couple ofyears. But but what they did is is just get the get a really inspiring storyonline or digital or on well board, board level uh, strategic stuff thatpeople found relevant. And they wrote books about it and they and they wereall over the place in the last last decade. And that's really, really smart.But it's also of course costing a lot of money in a way because it's notalways directly delivering dollars or, or bottom line euros. But that's areally interesting strategy uh, strategy to go. But I think that youhave to have a bit of a scale in your organization to to adapt to thatstrategy. But in small, we're already doing that because our our our ceo isnow more becoming the the guy who gets the uh boom message across uh talkingabout digital excellence at at big uh Fintech, uh I was ATF innovate,innovate europe in the last uh in november. So he's already getting thestages and in the in the in the Netherlands were already deliveredkeynotes by are researchers, researchers sometimes with clients induo duo presentation. And they get on the on the speaking platform because uhthey also love to of course they wanna...

...they wanna shine with their expertise,but it's also really interesting as a professional to do those uhperformances. Um so in small, we already uh we already did it, but um ifyou have 10 times the budget, then uh probably you can hire more researchconsultants who spend more time on those guest appearances and fly aroundthe world to get the message across. If Covid, Covid is gone then probably uhwe will again fly around the world and and and take some more internationalalso create a more international footprint there. But to be honest thatcosts a lot of Yeah I definitely think I think you're right and that thebigger piece would be the publishing team, the writing and publishing team.Right? Because there's probably your company already has subject matterexperts. The time is actually converting their expertise into thoughtleadership, converting their ideas into something that people can actually readand consume. Because I don't know I find that subject matter experts areusually not the best writing and like presenting. So having a so a journalistespecially a team with the journalistic background is going to be able to takeand turn a lot of those ideas into something they just consumed a lot morewhat what what what we see at our company is that they are rock stars inpresenting and they are also uh rock stars in writing. But they at thismoment they're not that they don't have most of the time, they don't have timeto do it because they're working for demanding clients and it's totallyappropriate that they are demanding because they just want one of the bestand they can get it. But it costs a lot of time to serve them. So it's it'salso uh and what I can't do it all, you better to have your expertise pushingpushing the way forward and having somebody else doing the thing that youcan hire them out for. Yeah or or you you should. And that's also what Iwould definitely do if you uh if I if I would have had 10 times the budget, Iwould definitely push the budget towards the research team. And alsotowards uh to get maybe to come to agreement of 20 or 30, of your timecomes in is reserved for content marketing purposes. And be it a podcast,be it a white paper, be it a blog article being the keynote speech at abig webinar, It doesn't matter. But that's something that that is. I'mworking on that every day to get to get the to get that message across. And yes,it does really matter what kind of people what kind of D. N. A. That's youhave inside you if you're an introvert...

...or an extrovert. And and then what Iwould say is that you have to cherish that and and see how you can contributeinstead of saying this is, this is nothing, this is nothing for me. Andlet me just do some, let me just do the client berg, that's a really big shiftwere making at the company also that everybody can contribute in a way andI'm facilitating, uh, that they can contribute so everything, everything ispossible. Yeah. My last question is following up on video. I actually findvideo to be very fascinating. I do have in my, my like, I guess I don't evenhave it written down, but in my mental roadmap for sweet fish media to pushhard into Youtube Within the next year or two. I think YouTube is going to getbigger, even though as big as it is already. I'm like, I don't know, I'mpredicting that it's going to be twice as big in 10 years. But though I'mcurious to hear like, why are you going into Youtube? Like what's yourhypothesis in video and Youtube specifically? Yeah, I recently saw apresentation of video marketing agency and he said that the how to content isand also the uh, yeah, so how to content is really container is thatit's a lot, but that people are just searching for on Youtube tube exploreand to do, to do stuff themselves or learn, learn stuff, learned how to dostuff. And I would say that that there is a big chance also uh for us and thatif I agree with you that youtube is really big and, and also I think alsoit's gonna gonna grow uh faster than they just really, really dominant. Andwe, we forget that people search there. First they go to google and second theygo to go to Youtube to search for stuff and video is now so much more easy.It's not it's not all the internet connection speeds are are there five Gis coming up? Everybody has a big as powerful uh internet internet speed inthe in the in the western world. So that was that was in the past, that wasthe big problem with video. And then yeah, you just say oh well we can moreeasily do it in text and it's more uh it's better found in google but we'rein a total different different landscape at this moment. So for mealso it would be really more logical to get the message out also on on Youtube.And and I think we're also gonna start it somewhere this year just with allthe videos that we're now publishing native on on on Lincoln, I'm just gonnaupload them all to Youtube and get some...

...advice by the video marketing guys onhow to optimize it for S. E. O. Purposes. And then I'm gonna see whathappens and it's more or less ashamed. But we didn't already professionalizeour, our Youtube channel at this at this moment. So that's a note to selfuh this moment. Yeah, I think you're good. I actually think by doing nowyou're early In my opinion. Like B2B content doesn't do that great onYouTube right now. Real estate didn't do well on Youtube until two years agonow, it's blowing up like, But if you look at the trends of Youtube, the waygen Z interacts with Youtube is very different from millennials, Millennialswould go there and reference things all the time, but gen Z like subscribes thechannels are like passionate about following every single video fromcertain creators. So their consumption levels like through the roof comparedto millennials and they're just now graduating college, depending on whereyou put gen Z at. As far as your timeline goes, If you put it at 2000,then there what, 2020 21? So they're 21 they're literally just like, they're intheir last year of college, maybe you push it, push it all the way back to 95but they're just out of college. They haven't yet really started searchingfor all the stuff that's considered me to be because usually getting into Btwo B maybe you're studying like marketing in general, in college andyou're starting to go through those Crappy YouTube videos that are there.But even like marketing in general, entrepreneurialism is really popular onYouTube. But like B2B content isn't popular yet. Right? As gen Z starts togrow up and starts to do what they do by learning through youtube, they'regonna start looking for me to be content. They're gonna start lookingfor those deeper things beyond what Neil Patel's posting. So it's going tobe bigger and there's going to be more people there and YouTube so far is theonly place that like, really pays creators. So I expect that that's goingto pan out over the next 10 years. Everybody else just like wants you togive them money to reach your full audience where youtube actually paysyou. So I think more and more creators going to go there interesting. They,they've got a, that's my, that's my two cents on youtube anyway, so I thinkyou're, you're not late to the game. Great. That's a, that's a relief for,at this moment. Yeah. Even now I think I have two years before we can still beconsidered early. One thing I do know about Youtube's, it takes a long time.Like so be prepared to like slog through it for like quite a few yearsbefore you start to see traction. Even if you're giving it your best shot,it's a long game. Everybody I've heard that gets successful on Youtube is like,they're like, oh yeah, we just, we knew we were going to make a 3 to 5 yearcommitment and didn't, we just just decided not to really like we looked atthe metrics to optimize of course, but like we didn't let the lack of beinghaving a million subscribers like stop us from producing our best contentevery week. So it just takes a long...

...time. But those who pay it early. Bythe time we're getting around 2030, we'll be reaping the rewards. That's,that's my opinion. And I think a lot leadership is going to play a big rolein that. Anyway, I have to wrap this up. This has been a fantastic time gettingto know you Matthew and getting to know what you would be doing for companies,where they're small or who are growing rapidly and have lots of cash to spend.If people want to learn more and dive into what you've, all the insightsyou've learned about thought leadership after doing this for over five years.Um where can they go to learn more about you? And your company will uhwell best is uh just visit the website and then you can do a global dot comand you get, if you are a new visitor you get you get a pop up with subscribesubscription to our newsletter monthly. And all our data and fresh research ispublished on our linkedin linkedin page. And that's uh easily found fire fire ofa global in in the Lincoln search and in the company a company section. Uhyeah, that would that would be best to say they updated and you can connectwith me on linkedin also with otitis funding book. Fantastic again. Thankyou for joining me. I'm GDP Growth. Thanks for having me dan Is your buyer at BDB Marketer. If so,you should think about sponsoring this podcast. BTB growth gets downloadedover 130 1000 times each month and our listeners are marketing decision makers.If it sounds interesting, send Logan and email Logan at sweet fish Media dotcom.

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