How to Show Your CEO that ABM is Working with Derek Slayton

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

In this replay episode, we talk to Derek Slayton, Chief Operating Officer at BigTime Software, formerly CMO at Terminus.

Hey be to be growth listeners. We want to hear from you. In fact, we will pay you for it. Just head over to be tob growth podcom and complete a short survey about the show to enter for a chance to win two hundred and fifty dollars. Plus the first fifty participants will receive twenty five dollars as our way of saying thank you so much one more time. That's be tob growth podcom, letter B number two, letter be growth podcom. One entry per person must be an active listener of the show to enter, and look forward to hearing from you conversations from the front lines and marketing. This is be tob growth. This is B tob growth, coming to you from just outside Austin, Texas. I'm your host, Benjie Block, and joining from Nashville, Tennessee Director of growth, Dan Sanchez, and from Louisville, Kentucky, are creative content lead, Emily Brady. Welcome to Friday show you, guys, and excited to get the chat emily. We are going to throw it to you today to tell us what you've been looking at Linkedin in the news. What your what are you paying attention to when it comes to marketing. Yeah, I saw a post this week. Someone had said they are noticing more youtubers joining linkedin and bringing their audiences with them because they've mastered the art of engaging audiences their powerhouse content creators. A lot of people used to see them as like just making motivational videos and now they're kind of gravitating towards Linkedin, which is, you know, more serious in a lot of ways. So I thought it could be an interesting conversation about if you guys have noticed this trend, noticed more youtubers on Linkedin, what that means for Linkedin and even like the rise of, you know, more...

...video on Linkedin and content creators as marketers. A lot there. Who Have you seen, emily, have you seen anyone specifically that your you see on Youtube or know from Youtube? Yeah, well, I honestly I've I don't spend a lot of time on Youtube, so I couldn't say if someone was a youtuber on Linkedin and I know that, I think Daniel on youtube quite a bit consuming content. So I don't know if you've seen this. I'm looking for, like as you brought it up, I'm looking for the people I know who we're doing this and I have two cases. One was someone I had been watching on Youtube. His name was Ali Abdal. He's big and productivity, fantastic youtube channel on all things productivity, and he'd kind of started as like he'd focused his channel on students who wanted to get into I think Oxford's medical school, because he'd already mastered that, and then peep and then students who were in the school and then kind of like leveled, like broadened out his channel to be about productivity in general. Great Youtuber, but I've noticed he's been stepping up as Linkedin game over the last year because he's creating original content tailor for Linkedin, usually taking clips of his youtube video and making micro content, but he's putting thoughtful dialog into it and actually engaging on Youtube, because while a lot of people will syndicate their content and even like customize at a little bit, they're usually not engaging in all the platforms, which is understandable because it's hard to engage in all platforms. I usually can only engage in one short form channel at the time, which is why I'm committed to Linkedin and not twitter. But he's actually thoughtful engaging in linkedin now I have a feeling he's engaging in multiple platforms because he's trying to grow his audience and grow the depth of engagement with his audience. Now, on the other hand, there's another creator that I've grown to love his youtube channel. Actually found him first on Linkedin and then accidentally was searching for things that he was talking about on Youtube. What about securities? Add my identity stolen recently, so I started getting hyper obsessed with like secure email and VPN's and like...

...all that stuff, and he had a he had one of the best channels on the topic, called all things secured. I was watching it and being like, meet a second I freaking know this guy. Like I've had a zoom meeting with Youtuber. We had an about something linkedin related. Then I later went back to his linkedin profile, like, Yep, there's the messages. We've totally chatted before, and then I we've and I've engaged in multiple of this post before. But he wasn't always talking about the things that he was talking about on Youtube on Linkedin. But he was engaging heavily on linkedin about marketing and Seo and things, but on youtube he was talking about something totally different. I think he actually has multiple youtube channels. But since then, I now I'm engaging with them on both platforms and he's probably the only youtuber actually comment on, partly because I know him and he knows me. So we have a little bit of a relationship there. And now the the engagements growing. So I think more youtubers are I think you're right. I think more youtubers are getting on to Linkedin Mass I think because Gary v's telling them to. I imagine the audience for them is different on Youtube and Linkedin. Or do you think are they bringing their audience to Linkedin or they trying to find a new audience on Linkedin? I think Ali AB doll is trying to grow his audience by being more intentional with other platforms. I think Josh probably had already been active on linkedin heat and running probably a freelance business while he gets his youtube business going. So I think he had two different things going on and now they're starting to blend more and more as he's promoting some of his old things secured on Linkedin. Do you think they'll have the same success on Linkedin that they've had on youtube, or have you seen that? I don't think so. Alli a doll has massive success on Youtube, but and less and less you can be that focus on linkedin. It'd be hard, yeah, it would just be hard to he'd have to really hammer linkedin and I think a single creator can only invest so much in one platform, which is why even Geary v, the master of managing all, all all social channels, can only hit linkedin so hard. He doesn't post that often and he doesn't engage much in the platform. Of course he's trying to be everywhere, so he can only engaged so much as so many platforms, but...

...he won't be. He doesn't get it nearly M as much engagement on Linkedin as some of the smaller creators like Chris Walker Jed whilsh are all in on Linkedin, but I don't think you have to, and I think that's what's interesting about even the post that you're referencing, emily, and I think when I think so, I don't have a youtube example. I have a tick tock example. Jat Barnett. He does he's an advisor for B Toc Brands. He started one of the first tick tock houses ever where he got a bunch of creators together and they just started creating content for brands. He has eight thousand five hundred followers on Linkedin. He actually looking at his post right now scrolling it. He doesn't repost almost I haven't seen one ticktock video that he reposts. It's almost all written form content. But when I'm referencing the post that you're talking about, it says the new narrative will be they have mastered the art of engaging audiences. They have built substantial or substainable businesses out of this and they are powerhouse content creators. You only have to be on Linkedin in some capacity and proof of concept on whatever platform you're trying to own. So you have all these people coming to linkedin and just creating something so that they have a presence in essentially the business world and they have a page that people can find them on right but they're not pouring all their time, energy and effort in. I think specifically with this example of JT Barnett, if he posted his content on linkedin that he's posting on Ticktock, it would work. It's very business focused, it's very creator focused. It's a lot of marketing mindset stuff and I love engaging with it. Over on Tick Tock. I don't know what his thoughts are on the strategy he's I'm reading some of his posts and they look they look great. There's stuff that I would I would still pay attention to, but he's pretty engaging in a video format and I don't know. I think this translates well, but it does come...

...back to like what medium are you trying to own and do you have to really post all the time on Linkedin in order to be successful? Not Really. If you already have your youtube audience, you just do some stuff and even if the audience is much smaller, it's a point of reference. Now it absolutely works to syndicate it and create original content. Is it as much as you can get out of the platform? No, you can get more, but at the same time there's diminishing returns with everything. To get to the top, though, you usually have to go all in on one or two platforms, like Alie I'm bald it with Youtube. He went all in on Youtube. It's paying out now he's it's kind of like finance, right, you don't get rich from diversification. Usually get rich from one thing, one business, one really successful crypto currency. Right, you get rich from one thing but then to keep your which is or to keep that attention, you diversify across multiple things. I want more your thoughts on only, I mean your yes, you're in the not as much in the youtube space, but you're fully in the Creator space and you're you're on Tick Tock. I wonder, like what your thoughts are there, even with the transfer of how your content works on Tick Tock verse then you bring it over to Linkedin, like there's a lot there that. I feel like our roads that are you have to at least be thinking about, you know, in great capacity. Well, it's interesting because, I mean, I know it's different with Youtube, but with Tick Tock I'm actually using my tick tock to grow my audience on Linkedin. So I have like a very small following on Tick Tock, but when I repost those videos on to Linkedin, because it's I think, because it's such a hot topic right now in bb I get so many comments on those and I also get a ton of new followers just from those videos. So and I don't know if it's the novelty of it or people want to be more entertained and Linkedin is kind of looking the same these days. But that's been my experience. So I don't I like what you guys are saying about you have to go in on one platform and I think that definitely...

...applies to youtube. But with Tick Tock I found it to be kind of the other way around the thing. But Tick Tock is I think it's kind of a weird thing that linkedin has this fascination with tick tock right now and that's why it's working to create tick tocks, but really it's for Linkedin right and anything you get from Tick Tock is just gravy. I hope that we see like people try different things things over time on on Linkedin. But if you're already a youtube creator and or you're already a massive tick Tocker, there doesn't seem to be a ton of incentive to pour your effort into linkedin specific like just for as a creative content engine. Like I'm gonna do that. It does make sense for Chris Walker. It does make sense for those more in that be to be like podcasting space, microvideos and that sort of thing on linkedin. But I would love to see continued variety and we'll just see where it goes over time. I think it'll be something to keep an eye on and maybe come back to as I want to look up more youtubers to that. I'm like, this would be applicable in a bet to be space, because I don't tend to go to youtube for that because my linkedin content is so curated into the bet be marketing specific space and that's what I get in that feed. Anyway, I think there's a lot to be learned from youtubers who are coming on to Linkedin, and same for people on Tick Tock who are putting their content on linkedin. There's a lot we can learn from them as content creators, and so that's why I think this, this wave is so interesting. Like I love following that kind of content and learning from it. So fascinating conversation and another good little round table discussion here before we jump to a full episode. It's Friday, which means it's time for a thorough that conversation. Enjoyed this one. Welcome back to be tob growth.

I'm Logan lyles with sweet fish media. Today I'm joined by Derek S Layton. He is the chief marketing officer over at Terminus Derik. How's it going today, man, it's great. Logan thanks for having on. Excited to to do this with you guys. Absolutely it is great to meet you. We are obviously big fans of the terminus team. We've had Sangram as as a regular guest on the podcast here. That Guy Sangram got it. Yeah, that Guy Sangram. We Love them around here. We talked about them a lot. So it's great to meet more of the terminus team and to have you on today. We're going to be talking about some of the key areas where BB marketing is lacking today and and what marketers can really do about it to address some of those areas of lack. Before we get into it, and I would love for you to provide listeners with a little bit of background on on yourself and what you in the team at terminus or up to these days. Yeah, glad to I run marketing at terminus. I've been with the company for about a year and a half. I've got a big background, I guess. Lots of time spent in product and corporate marketing. Rolls across me to be companies primarily, and technology SASS companies, and I've kind of lived through the evolution of of marketing as a as a cost center to marketing as a revenue driver and joined terminus because I just believe in this account based saying as a practitioner and it was super exciting to join a company to not only practice ABM but also help others practice it as it kind of becomes just a better way to do be to be marketing. And for those that don't know who terminus is, I'm sorry because I'm not doing my job. But as as a brief hector hop we are an account based marketing platform. We help customers kind of pick the right segments of the market, target the right accounts and then engage with those accounts through creative messages that bring them into your pipeline. The things we do that are kind of different. One is we aggregate data, so your own data plus third party data, plus a bunch of intents and signal data out in the wild, and help you put that all to use pretty easily. We own the point of engagement,...

...so we're very good at getting messages through display ads, emails and other channels to those target audiences and then we really do a solid job of measuring results at an account level and being account centric and helping you tell your bosses where account based marketing is driving results and how your programs are performing. So that's what we do. That's actually what I do too as a marketer. M So I kind of have a bit of a Meta thing going on. Yeah, personally, but but yeah, that's me and term it us in a nutshell. Yeah, absolutely. I mean I love hearing any time where someone is an advocate for for a brand and then, you know, is able to join the team. I just think that's such a recipe for some magic things to happen. Then you guys have have some great things going on over there at terminus. You know, Derek, as you and I were talking a little bit offlined, you mentioned this distinction. We talk a lot about sales and marketing alignment on the show. I think it's some of the episodes that get a lot of engagement because it is a buzzword and has been for a little bit. You kind of push against that, that phrase a little bit and in push for a shift in thinking about this. Tell us a little bit about that, man. Yeah. Well, I appreciate the question and we work chatting about it beforehand. Logan, I just feel like this alignment thing has been beating to death and and everybody kind of has a Kumbaya about it. But but what does it really mean? I actually think sales and marketing need to be more integrated than a Ligne. And you know, when I think about how I work with my cro at terminus, it's very much a arm in arm thing versus a I'm going to carry it this far and then I'm going to pass it to you and you're going to carry it that far kind of thing. And alignment is really about managing the handoff. Integration is really about we're on a journey and my team is going to be primary here and your team's going to be secondary, and then we're going to switch and you're going to be primary and we're going to be secondary, and maybe it's some points we're both going to be secondary and somebody else is going to come in. We're going to make sure that happens. So it's really I we talked a lot about integration of sales and marketing, and I'm not talking about organizationally, although I think sometimes that maybe where people end up,...

...but it's really just about the mindset of we both own this, this mission, and the success or failure this mission is on both of our shoulders and it's not a you know, I've done my part. When it gets to this point alignment kind of conversation. Yeah, I think that's a really good point, dirt, because alignment means, you know, to take your analogy of running on the track is we're in the same lane, but I'm still handing it off to you when my part is done, and now I'm expecting you to take that art, which is better than running in opposite lanes or just, you know, exacting across the field. Right when you're running arm and arm. There are parts that you know, especially with abm, where sales does something, then marketing then and there's this mixture of the the activities together, as opposed to one segment then the next segment handled by these function and, like you said, that can lead to different organizational structures or, you know, other sorts of sales and marketing motions. But I think the overall shift in mentality is of is an important one at first and some that you guys talk about a lot. Derek, as far as you know, we're marketing is lacking in the support of sales. Has Actually been this focus on the number of leads. Tell us a little bit about that. Yeah, I mean I think that's the whole and people probably heard this, you know, a bit from other sources as well. It's the whole concept of lead base marketing versus account based marketing. And we sell to accounts and there people wot account that we sell to. In a buying committee. We need to be aware of and get our message too. But at the end of the day, when we're measuring success and in form fills and lead metrics, you know, for be to be companies, that just doesn't Mesh well with with how sales is trying to get their job done. And I think if you're if you're super focused on a lead volume and leaves as that Baton Pass, then then you've got a huge challenge and really having an efficient sales and marketing engine. And and that's really what the account based, account based whatever marketing, sale, go to market is all about. And I think the...

...the devil's in the details, all right, looking like if you're going to go down that path, then you got to shift your mindset about how do you do the work and how do you measure the work, because companies, you know, I think marketers really relished, you know, ten years ago when we could sign up for a number and that number was just measured in leads. Yeah, we got out of the you know, red balloons or blue balloons kind of decision into the how are you actually going to affect a number for the company? Right problem is we picked a number that, at the end of the day, isn't as relevant to success as it could be. And I think now we're trying to get out of jail a bit, yeah, from the decision. So yeah, I mean, and I think it goes to the alignment or integration with sales. I've heard Sangrum say, you know, companies don't have lead executives, they have account executives. I've heard John Barrows say, you know, I kind of called bs on, you know, marketing needing to be account based, like sales has always been a count based. So if you're going to be aligned, then that should just be the way that it, that it goes. You touched on something they're you know, Derek, that I want to I want to get into and that's some of the how you know, we talked about some of these things here on the show and I think even marketers who are already there and say Yep, I see a lot of the Stalue, but I don't know how to make that shift and and one of the shifts that they're likely going to have to navigate is having a conversation with their CEO about the shift, about what it looks like to change in what they're measured by. Tell us a little bit about, you know, maybe what marketers can do in those early conversations to get buy in from the rest of the executive team and especially the CEO. Yeah, I mean I think what what companies talk about at the executive table all the time is we know what success looks like, but what are the leading indicators to whether we're going to succeed or not? And that's pretty well defined in in sales right, it's pipeline, generally waited out, way to pipeline, those kind of metrics, and in marketing the proxy has been leads right, and there was always this mathematical equation where you tried to figure out what your conversion rate from lead to pipeline to revenue was going to be. And what we've seen is that has just fundamentally broken down in...

...terms of the equation in in trying to marry up the relevance of a lead to assign customer. So really, when you think about an account based scorecard, how do you, as a marketer, make the CEO understand that marketing is now going to be measured on a better leading indicator to pipeline? Then leads are and if you have that conversation with your CEO, like look, we need to continue to drive further away from success and understand what the leading indicators of success will be so we can manage expectations, resource alignment, staffing, all that stuff. And when you start looking at measuring marketing on a better leading indicator and you're talking to your CEO about I have a better idea to give you a better leading indicator to how well I'm performing. Is a team, then I think your CEO is going to be like great, let's do that, because I'm tired of having the lead conversion argument between sales marketing and for us, you know, it's engagement, like so, within my target market segments, how well am I engaging accounts at an account level such that they will turn into pipeline at a, you know, at a better rate? And so really that is that's the way to have. In my experience, and having done it a few times and also having worked with we have hundreds of customers that are going through this, this journey as well, and seeing what what ones of them are more successful or less successful in getting their company to embrace this concept. It's really it's really around thinking about it in that in that mindset. I really like that as as someone who's gone through the for disciplines of execution or for DX is. People know that that model by you know. It is something that struck me there is that it's very common for people to get hung up on lag measures, which is, you know, for folks who aren't familiar with that methodology, as you talk about what we know success looks like, but the devil in the details is what are the leading indicators? And so I like the way that you put that the lead measures or the leading indicators that are going to be a better predictor of success and that that's the right way to have that conversation you mentioned.

From there then starting to build out. Okay, how are we going to measure? ARE BUILDING OUT OUR ABM score card. What advice do you have for folks in getting started there, once they get some minitial by and dirt yeah, I mean I'm a vender here. So just a quick warning, right. We have a solution that helps with this stuff and we do it every day with our customers. So if you haven't checked it out, please do. But I really actually think it's it's comical to me that, as a marketing leader, like what is my what is my dashboard for success? And we have this conversation on internally. You know, it's not marketing automation, right, it just isn't. It's pipeline, reporting and sales force for us. And so when we start looking in an account based platform, it's how can we believe that marketing is delivering on on numbers? And that is really in measuring. These are my market segments. I'm identifying these segments based on this data and we agree that these are the best indicators of the best markets for us to put resources behind. And then I'm going to measure at an account level how well we're moving the needle of getting that account to being, you know, aware and interested in what we do, and those are measurable things. Our solution helps you do that. We me personally uses that internally. But I think if you're if you're going to go down this journey, you got to buy a platform that helps you do it like so so. In Our business we talk a lot about what makes us different from a couple of the other folks that are in the account based platform space, and really I'm not that interested in differentiating what we do from some of the other folks because we all do a pretty good job. There's some different stuff that we do that other folks do. What I need the market to understand is it if you were going to do this, you've actually got to make a decision to to acquire the capability to do it right, or else you're going to you're going to spin, yeah, and you're going to end up back in like well, we can measure leads, go back to leads.

Yeah, what are not saying by technology for Technology Sake, but understand that the current technology set that we all bought five to seven years ago actually doesn't support an account centric market plan, and and you need one to if you're going to do it. What are some of those areas in either putting together the plan, putting together the right resources or the expectations? You know, no matter what platform someone's using, where you see people consistently miss the mark and they don't give themselves enough in the beginning stages for success, let alone sustained success there. Yeah, well, I think a lot of it is a lot of it is just picking your how you're going to roll this out. So I need to focus on for this part of our business. We are going to make this decision. We're going to shift our structure to be focused on accounts, we're going to drive account based methodologies to penetrate those accounts, we're going to measure our success against those accounts and just being really practical and transparent and how you're going to how big of a bite you're going to take off, and then now you're going to measure that success. And I think you know, partnering with sales, partnering with Account Development or sales development, whatever you call that function which makes the marketing or mason sales, and understanding the expectations in the process and then just committing to it. What I've seen people fail with more frequently than than not is being overly transactional and how they do it like we're going to run this and then we're going to measure it in five weeks and if we're not seeing success, we're going to question ourselves, like nothing wins more than consistency and you can't control the timing of your buyer as much as you might think you'd like to. Yeah, so, absolutely. So you know, you know they're the right accounts. They will eventually have a propensity to purchase from you, but it may not be tomorrow and that's there's a lot of factors you can't control on that equation. But you need to say persistent and being in their mind so that when they either are close to ready or become ready, and maybe you can accelerate that a bit, then they reach out to you or they are receptive to something...

...where you're reaching out to them. But you can't just assume that they're not the right account because they're not engaging. They probably are the right account but they got a bunch of stuff going on. I just acquired a company. They just brought in a new VP of whatever. Like. There's stuff that goes up, things that you know. As someone who's been in BB sales for ten plus years, you just know those sort of things and you you know to kind of account for those sorts of things from a sales perspective and I think marketing. Putting on that Lens as well makes thanks a lot of sense. I mean it's very much in line with how we're talking with marketers about podcasting. You know it. Oh, can we do three podcast episodes over three months and then measure success? Right? No, consistency is the key in these sorts of things that take a bigger shift a longer time, whether that's brand building and thought leadership with a podcast, for making a shift to and ABM model, these sorts of things definitely take time. You mentioned something there, Derek, that you know it's crucial to give it time to play out because you know that you're targeting the right accounts. Are there's some some areas of advice you could give to marketers that are just starting out in this area of account selection where maybe you see some common fitballs or you have some repeatable advice that you're giving to folks so that they can kind of have a little bit more assurance and a little bit more trust in the process as they look to build consistency over time and look for the long term results. Yeah, I mean this is we could probably talk for two hours about this subject, Logan, so I'll try to be concise. I think we're finally coming around to like better understanding the connection between brand and demand and I think if you're going to be successful in account based it's really being cognizant of how you're going to measure brand marketing in its ability to drive engagement demand. And for too long, because we've been so focused on kind of resultspace marketing, our brand experience has been click Baiti right in B tobs. We're looking for in is like I just want to put that message out that's going to get...

...someone to download the White Paper, or I'm just going to whatever. It's a green button versus a blue button, or it's it's some wording around free right where it be to be. We've just been so caught up in how do I drive my response race from zero for four to point zero, six, five right. And you got to you got to remove all that and be able to measure. I'm putting a great brand experience in front of these accounts. I'm going to reach them through digital ads and digital experiences, but I'm not going to actually measure their clicks, because nobody actually clicks right. Eventually they engage and they engage over their own process, which is seeing your brand promise in a great add that's creative and touches on a pain point they have, in getting an email from your company that identifies you know what their biggest problem is and how you can help solve that, and then seeing you at an event and having the people in the booth be able to communicate the value proposition of what you do as it relates to their problem, and then, at the magic moment, being on your website and filling out I want to see a demo, right, and so like you have to think about how you're going to measure the account in total as opposed to the channel of engagement you're trying to drive, and for us that's just a critical, critical thing that you have to think about. And if you don't, and you're just trying to measure the channel effectiveness, then you get this click baty thing, which is just it's mine. I mean it does two things. It gives us a false perception of reality because we like to picture this, you know, buyer journey a lot more linear than it than it actually is, and in this silo channel, and that's not the case. It's it's across all these channels of engagement, online and offline. And then it also just leads us to well, if we can't tie this back to, you know, a specific conversion metric and a tribute leads to it, then it's not worth it. And it it's, you know, demangin and brand kind of...

...at odds with each other. I see people talking about a podcast and struggling with this. Well, we don't have the email addresses in the demographics of every podcast listener where, you know, my pushback is, well, does it matter if you are drawing people in with content that's not click baby but is actually delivering value? Isn't that what inbound martianing, as you know, on our shift to content, has been all about that we build a brand and put out content that attracts people, doesn't ensnare them or trick them with with Click Bait, and so I think it. I get passionate on that a bit and I think there's there's some alignment between you and II. There there, Derek, but this has been a great conversation. Man. You hit on really three things that I kind of jotted down, you know, having the conversation with your CEO and your executive team framed around this idea that I think we can have a better leading indicator for success and then to setting the expectations that if we resource this correctly and we get our heads around at the right way, a shift to an account based everything, it can sustain success. But it's going to take a little bit of time and then three looking at brandon demand, working together and not being at it at odds with each other. You know, some mental shifts that can inform some some practical applications. Any other thoughts you want to leave folks with today as we wrap up? Derek, no, I mean I think you touched on on kind of the highlights there, so well done, Logan. I think he hit on a lot of good points. I think the the other concept is just think about having a conversation with your your head of sales about how we're going to be better integrated versus just aligne. And I think you know just from I'm a marketing guy, so why? I believe the words matter and I think that just puts the right context around how you want a partner with sales. However, your company is organized across marketing, Business Development, sales customer success. How can we be better integrated in delivering a customer experience that we're proud of, and wouldn't it be great if we if all our customers were great customers? Right? That's that's really what we're trying to get to here...

...because Abso, you know, more people are measuring success based on LTV versus, you know, for you know, the transaction, which is great, and it's a subscription economy, I'm told. So it's only getting more for that too, somewhere. Right. I'm with you, Derek. Awesome and well, Hey, this has been a great conversation. I'm sure that folks listening to this are likely going to have some followup questions or going to want to stay connected with you, Derek. What's the best way for them to reach out stay connected with you in the terms team in? Yeah, well, they can check us out on our website, terminuscom. That's what we'll attribute everything to. Inbound. If you do that and and you can hit me up on twitter at dericks lat or on Linkedin, I'm easily findable. They're awesome and if you're a big fan of this show, you're likely going to love flip my funnel as well. So find that wherever podcasts are sold. In addition to following Derek and going to terminuscom Derek has been a great conversation man. Thanks so much. Yeah, thanks, look, it was great. Really appreciate it. If you enjoyed a day show, hit subscribe for more marketing goodness. And if you really enjoyed a day show, take a second to rate and review the podcast on the platform you're listening to it on right now. If you really really enjoyed this episode, share the love by texting it to a friend who would find it insightful. Thanks for listening and thanks for sharing.

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