B2B Growth: Your Daily B2B Marketing Podcast
B2B Growth: Your Daily B2B Marketing Podcast

Episode 1704 · 1 month ago

Revenue Operations: Systems for Scalable Growth, with Stephen Diorio

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

In this episode, Benji talks to Stephen Diorio, Managing Director at The Revenue Enablement Institute and author of "Revenue Operations".

The skill sets in marketing are in flux, the marketing toolset has been democratized, and the marketing mix has changed. So how do we succeed in this new world? Stephen says it starts with Revenue Operations and he's giving away the core building blocks in this fascinating conversation.

Conversations from the front lines of marketing. This is be to be growth. Welcome back to be to be growth. I'm your host, Benjie Block. Today I am joined by Steven Diorio. He is the managing director at the revenue enablement institute and he's the CO author of revenue operations. Steven, were so glad to have you joining us on B tob growth today. I'm excited to be here. Well, let's start here. Man, you are the author of a new will, Co author, I should say, have a new book revenue operations. Give me the origin story there behind what I would call a very timely book. Yeah, that's great. I've been doing go to market consulting since then, early S, even before that, and you know, I've had a front row seat of the introduction of technology and digital channels analytics into the sales of marketing mix. And you know, on that journey you've seen episodes of success. You know all we've automated email, see RAMAS and island. That does useful things, but by and large, organization's a fail to harness the power of technology to generate scalable growth, meaning get on more growth with less resources and more consistent growth and a lot of thesons are at the technology. It's really leadership, change management, changing how people get paid, motivating teamwork. So we created this institute in this book to sort of lead the board level conversation almost on commercial transformation, because any sales, natement, sales operations marketing off person we've ever met knows exactly what they're doing, but they're not in power to take the risks and make the change. There's fan of control is way too narrowble talk about that, and so I think this whole notion of revenue operations. I hate buzzwords, but literally every day we're just seeing hundreds of New v piece of revops calling us up like what's My job? I have more control now. So something's here and we'll talk about what it is and how can make a difference. Yeah, let's go to to what it is and a and we'll definitely be talking about how it can make a difference. At its core, you see revenue operations as a solution to what problem that many of us are facing. Like, what would you say? The why is behind why? We need a system for this consistent and scalable growth. Got Three dimensions. If you do it forty year time series, which I can do since one thousand nine hundred and eighty, and you looked at the capital and operating expenditure against growth. It used to be like Madman TV and magical sales people getting in cars eight wheel sales calls. Now, if you look at it now, it's two thirst technology and what we call owned digital channels. You know these are email,...

...this is sales engagement channel is contactless selling. The media portion of the mix has gone way down. The whole motion of a CMO and an that agency has been reinvented. sometings become a capital intensive, data driven digital team sport. That's a whole different ball game from what most people were taught on. A most people who raised there's really no executive in the organization save the CEO. WHO's really got their hands on all the leavers to solve the problem. I'd say the problem, Benjie, is I've got a revenue cycle that goes from, you know, development to sales to expansion and loyalty. There's not one single throat to choke. Who's responsible for the experience, the metrics, leakage or whatever? It spans a lot of different silos. Double Click in, Benjie. Now you're looking at operations. Some organizations have thirty or forty different operational group sitting on top of their data and assets. We live in a world of intangible assets. Over eighty percent of the stock price of a company is is determined by intangibles, intellectual property, of process know how data insights, not buildings, inventory, factories, machines, and so in that world, your data is probably your biggest asset. It's actually worth more than American our lines. They actually secure loan that way, and the show me a person who's responsible for curating, valuing, monetizing and harvesting that data. Now they got people who are managing the planes, they've got people who are managing the buildings. Are the factories? I used to be a form in myself about. In this world of intangibles, I think, and the fact that these are the biggest assets in the company, I think a new operating model is needed and we're calling that revenue operations. People other people call revops different things, but I think you know it's commercial model. It is. Yeah, and we could spend the whole episode together just looking at what's happening inside each of you know these revenue centric functions and all of this increasing complexity. I would love to nerd out with you on that. I don't know how many people would have their eyes glaze over. So we're not going to go all the way down that road. We're going to talk specifically directly to the marketers here on be to be growth. How do you see revenue operations being a must in the increasing ambiguity that is marketing today? You know, I worked in the forbasium a practice and I hear you. So what I've done with the marketing Accountidy Standards Board and some of the best academics in the world, and again it's their stuff, not mine, is we have identified the calls of factors, eighteen of them, that drive growth. Brand preference is one of them. Customer Loyalty It as another. Others are company information, sharing, the digital experience. If you look at the eighteen factors, nobody in the company has their hands on all those dials. The executive who technically should or could would own the more of those things is marketing. At...

...the same time, I think he's you. You made an important point. Marketing is in the world of ambiguity. They've latched onto the brand which is in like in the Middle Corps, at seven percent of the value of the firm. But nobody is valuing that. They've latched on to media, media as in secular decline and it's an afterthought. It particularly at a consumption model. And technically they used to own the digital channels, they used to own the first party data, they used to own and Lytus and insights when it was an infant. But I'm hearing seem all vetnah. They took analytics away from him, other Comos, they took their toys away from him. So in the absence of financially valid business case that say, I am the person who's pulling all the economic leavers in this business. They're getting whittled away. Those who latch onto brand and media are struggling because those are never been front row issues in the boardroom, even if they are important. So I think marketing is in an interesting situation. They have the skill set and the mandate to control more of the value, but they're kind of last in line when it comes to you know, sales. You know what? What we see happening is someone's going to be elevated to this cxo brand pooba called a Tzarre position where they control more the revenue cycle. You could make the argument that that marketing should be that person that's serious x Ms. you know you've got really strong CMO who is doing that. Then in the call themselves a CMO. Same thing that at places like juniper you've got a very collaborative CMO who gets involved. The average CM although, is watching their job become more and more ambiguous, even though technically they're sitting on first part of data. They have the skills sets, they understand a lot of these things. So really, really good question. I know I rambled, but I we can. We can unpack that more. Yeah, I think it's just such an interesting time right because we're seeing roll ups of in trying to combine different departments and we're calling it different things, but ultimately, like this revenue team, if you will, sales marketing, we can seet we see CMOS that are if they have that revenue mindset enough, they can carry it these conversations that must be had into board room level. But oftentimes I do think it's just this ambiguous space right. Absolutely, a couple things. The modern selling machine looks like a bow tie. You know, you've got a classic funnel with Business Development at the beginning, there's a transaction in the middle and then it expands again a loyalty usage account expansion, Cross cell and marketing. I think one of the tricks problems is they've been always relegated to demand generation and the very, very from the phone when I would argue when I talked to a CMO, they should control everywhere that comes out of, you know, People's lips,...

...every RFP, every communication, and the technology is there to do that. Do it and if they understand the value proposition, the brand promise and the messaging, that red thread should be coming out of service people's mouths. It should be reinforcing cross cell and we have the channels and technology to do that. So that whole mentality that Oh, I'm going to live at the very fun with this funnel versus informing the conversation across the boat tie. That's one of the tricks. I think you know that picture and saying my mandate is I've got I'm doing value selling and service calls. My messaging and value messaging has to be there, just like it needs to be at the front. That's a vector that I think marketer should be pursuing changing that perception, changing their scopes, building alliances, building connective tissue to do that. So that's one one thing I'm seeing a lot of. Yeah, I like the bow tie analogy and I definitely you're seeing more of these conversations happening right because we're hearing about customer marketing in a different way and people are are trying a lot. I've had a number of conversations on me to be gross where that has come up and people are ready to innovate in that space, to be thinking through, as you mentioned, that entire bow tie and I now I think of it, even imagining it's almost like a smile. Right, we're keeping these. You know that that's a better way to do it. Yep, HMM. Okay. So let's talk changing just slow lately on the subject here, but you've compiled research for this book. How do you see revenue operations really creating value for the organization? And what I mean by this question is, can you just give me some specific examples of the Roi that you've seen, because you list so many in the book and you've done the compiled the research, but what would you say are some of the specific examples of Roli. Okay, yeah, so we try to use a different set of eyeglasses when we do this. We think about selling US commercial assets and you know, Layman's terms, this is a ton of sales tech, twenty five tools. This is a ton of channels. Channels are real, that's real infrastructure. Think about Amazon, you know, and then there's a ton of MARTEC and underneath that MARTEC is a ton of first part of data. You know. That's data of people coming to your website. It's mostly anonymous. But if you think about where I'm spending my money, I'm yielding this massive pile of first part of data. Those assets are disconnected. That first part of data is largely not informing sales and service conversations and vice versa, and that sales tech is woefully under utilized and disconnected. So those are the assets. Those are the assets. The data is not inform in the channels, the machine isn't working. Insights. We live in a world of AI and AI is a real value creator. We've identified a hundred technologies that are enabling modern selling. There worth a trillion dollars. There's no way on earth that...

...the established markets for those companies could even approach that type of valuation. They're like nuclear energy. It's like an Adam. I am unleashing the power of a company's data and it's latent assets. That's why these companies are creating so much value, and so that's in insights. Insights can inform everything, and then value creation. Let's walk through the numbers. Take a look at the economics of rep recruiting, ramping and retention. That's a flywheel, five different organizations, by the way, people spend it in an enormous amount of money. No one's adding that. No one's adding that number of HR it has. Some of it. Training has some of that. Sales and name on. Has saw sign those managers ton, a ton of money. And, by the way, the numbers are terrible. You know, with the great you know with the great residue resignation, people are dropping out at the cost of losing a sales wrap after eighteen months is astronomical. Should be on the CEO's docket. It isn't. Technology can really create a lot of value there because I can create connective tissue between the on boarding and the panels to the ramping and the coaching and reinforcement and then the reward systems that get people to pass along. I do a profiles every week. Last week we did the chief growth officer at at CDW. There repretention is out of this world. You know, it's like a turtle's life, it's so long and quite frankly, all they're doing is they're just optivate of a captain. They own that process. So one there is enormous. The equn the difference between people sticking around for twenty four months versus twelve months, the difference between ramping. Every month of ramp is costing a tens of thousands of dollars. If you connect sales and ablement to sales writtiness, to sales engagement and create a closed loop system that says this training works or doesn't, this playboat works or doesn't, this rack, this behavior is good or bad. Their skills are good or bad, they're good or bad, their priorities are good or bad. I could isolate what it is. There are no bad sales people, there are just sales people who behave badly, just like children and so, but nobody looks at those metrics. I could double triple. I guess I can get a x x, ten x return by just dealing with those variables. People buy value selling methodologies. No one's asking whether if people deploy a perfectly it works. It's intuitive, but but we can let that's one exeria. Another exerias resource avocation. Most salespeople because they're optimistic and outgoing, like some people we know on this call being here, they're hopeful. They chase too many accounts. I've never met a cheap revenue officer who said, oh, we don't chase enough accounts. We all chase too many accounts and we willingly go after people who probably are reaches. If we can combine analytux insights for pensity to buy, to say and maybe don't call on Ben you today, you...

...know, maybe double down on this other person, there's an infinite amount of opportunity just in allocating my time against higher probability opportunities. Yeah, layer upon that the seven levers in a sales force. One is treatment, you know, Gold treatment, bronze treatment, silver treatment, cotton treatment. One is rolls. We're seeing all sorts of roles and pods and and different hybrid roles in the sales process. The other is coverage. We talked about that. The other is incentives. Am I motivated for acquisition or lifetime value or some combination of the two? And then what products do you have in the bag? Everyone wants to cross sell. How many products should you have? Those are seven variables. If you think about those like a video game, I can turn those dials and ways that double profitability, cut the cost of cells in half or double growth. That's just a matter of turning those dials. The problem is we don't treat it like a video game. Incentives are made over here, territories are made over here, and so literally we have the ability to make plan like a video game. Yet no one is looking at it as optimization and allocation model. There's nothing magic to it. You just spend more time on the activities in the people who are more higher potential and you get the two extras in the three actions that we talked about. So there's a lot in the hill, but I think it takes this top down operating system perspective to start to see it. So I don't know how I far. I want a little deep on that, but I can give you more specific examples. Hey everyone, if you've been listening to be to be growth for a while, you know that we are big proponents of putting out original, organic content on Linkedin, but one thing that's always been a struggle for a team like ours is easily tracking the reach of that linkedin content. That's why we're really excited about shield analytics. Since our team started using shield, we've been able to easily track the reach and performance of our linkedin content without having to manually log it ourselves. It automatically creates reports and it generates dashboards that are incredibly useful to determining things like what content has been performing the best, what days of the week are we getting the most engagement and our average views per post. Shield has been a game changer for our entire team's productivity and performance on Linkedin. I highly suggest checking out this tool if you're publishing content on Linkedin for yourselves or for your company. You can get a ten day free trial at shield APP DOT AI, or you can get a twenty five percent discount with our Promo Code, be to be growth. Again, that's shield APP DOT AI and the Promo Code is be the number two be growth. All One word for a twenty five percent discount. All right, let's get back into the show. There's a lot in the hill,...

...but I think it takes the top down operating system perspective to start to see it. So I don't know if I went a little deep on that, but I can give you more specific examples. No, I think that is a great place for us to start. And, and you mentioned this in the book and I was going to mention it later, but I'm going to bring it up here. This idea of ultimately what this is doing is connecting the most dots. If you can connect the most dots, you win, right, and that, I think that is so key in this conversation is going. What we're ultimately trying to do is create synergy behind all these different parts that seem silod and like we're all we all have pieces of the information, but the more that there is like this together, Miss Right that's happening, where there's actual communication happening, technologies informing that, that's when you start to win. And so I love that and we're going to go a little bit further down that because there's some core building blocks to this system that I want us to get to and I want us to talk about. So get us into this by answering this question for me, Steven, what should in operating system for business look like? What are you guys ultimately proposing? Because there's a lot here. We go down a lot of other ultimately nine building blocks, but walk us through from a high level what what you are are proposing. It's a whole paradigm shift and it's like a pureicable for proof. And that sounds really nerdy and I think you've warned people sufficiently. But you know, there are thirty six building blocks and they double click down into more building blocks. And so while that sounds complicated, compare that to the world we live in. Over tenzero solutions, each with the unique category, each spans fire, if they're any good, five or six garter group, gtwo forster categories. Yeah, every CMO is coming up with the unique name to describe them. All of them are solving little silos of automation in an organization. Nobody has the guts to talk about connecting the dots because it doesn't facilitate a sale. So while go into a peer one table with thirty six core elements sounds complicated, it's actually a lot simpler because it lets you connect the new bone to the thigh bone to the hip bone. Like I said, if you just connected the training system to the NAVALOOD system running off the same content, got a home run. Not Territory and quota planning. I've got a connect for twenty or thirty different things, but the value is there and at the end of the day we're creating a vocabulary that describes what is common sense. And again, if I only own this Sidlo, but I see the potential and connecting them. Let me give you a really good example. Big Credit Card Company. Most of their marketing budget up for be tob is on getting web leads. HMM, millions of leads, anonymous sitting over here. Over here, I've got some of the biggest call centers in the world and they wi Wye Technology. These two universes live in isolation. The entire...

...marketing budget is here. Somebody proposed spending thousands of dollars to connect those two. It's called a PM. That attaches then on those profiles to hum an account and gives it to a salesperson. Hard, but not difficult. Not The relative and commental money would it would could rouple the value of the marketing span and would make those salespeople much, much more successful. Nobody could articulate the business case for the incremental spend to connect the need bone to the thigh bone. There when the multiplier effects were huge, and so it was canusural. It was silos. I mean, that's that. That case exists in in every situation. And by the way, the ABM people probably are shooting themselves in the foot because they come up with these horrible, complicated descriptions. But it's connecting the need bone to the thigh bone and if you could explain it in English, that's probably the easiest funding reposition I could ever sell on my life. But I cannot believe the resistance that my client got. So that's that. That's an example. With a pureide table we can show how that carbon chain comes together and how it craize value. So it's hard but it's not difficult and it's durable because if you keep connecting the dots it gets better and better and better and better, and a little connection doesn't have a lot of change management cost to it. I'm just connecting things I already have. They add up. That then ocean of continuous process improvement and incremental improvement is finally taking home hold in sales. It was the you know rock the bedrock of manufacturing, as you know, and even cycling. You know, the British did it brillily. They added up a million a half a percent improvements to win some gold metals. So I love that notion. And again, maybe it's flipping the script, maybe it's a whole new set of eyeglasses, but you try to figure out what a garden right or bad. You part the rebops forced to put out a revops magic quadrate this week and have two people on it puke on it. They said this doesn't describe it. So it's a tricky world, wren. I'm just trying to bring some clarity and it comes from all other experiments. Heyb to be gross listeners, we want to hear from you. In fact, we will pay you for it. Just head over to be tob growth podcom and complete a short survey about the show to enter for a chance to win two hundred and fifty dollars plus. The first fifty participants will receive twenty five dollars as our way of saying thank you so much one more time. That's B TOB growth podcom, letter B number two, letter be growth podcom. One entry per person must be an active listener of the show to enter and look forward to hearing from you. It's a tricky world, wren. I'm just trying to bring some clarity and it comes from all other experiments. Yeah, one of the ways you're bringing cleary is by giving these in specifically within revenue operations, is giving these...

...like nine building block so you have three growth assets, three commercial insights and three value drivers. If someone's being introduced to this for the first time, where would you have them kind of start in understanding how to think about those specific three group Steven Absolutely, and again, I think you've established pretty clearly been to you that I'm a Nerd, but I think this is cope. Well, let's know. I can you know in Copernicus would lived at a time when everybody thought the planets rotated around the earth, and what people are realizing is the planets are rotator around the sun, and that Sun is this the ashes combination of customer engagement, seller activity, product usage and financial transaction data, and crm feeds that. But crm is not the sun. It is a very important system within that ecosystem. If I have that Sun, I can go north. We call that revenue intelligence. I can give the senior management team important information about how well the machine is running. Those are things like account health, Opportunity, potential, sell a performance, pipeline, accuracy. Those are the big four. Will never get those perfectly right. The more different data I combine together, the better those models get. The more mature my algorithms are, the better they get. But going north, I can do that if I was south. Now I'm dealing with frontline sellers. I need to know tactical stuff. Who to call, what to sell, what to say, what content to give them bring to the meeting, how to personalize, how to price? Customer Intelligence. Are Taking? Yeah, and that's customer intelligence. And again that's you know that that makes recommender engines run on Amazon, that makes you know personal as injations runs that, that, that runs playbooks. But that intelligence makes a big difference. And so I'm taking customer data and I'm trying to do the same thing combined data. Oh, they can visit our website and they went to a conference and they went to a competitive site and they're using our product a lot. That tells me a lot more than just, you know, Zoom Info, which is also useful. So again I'm driving that south. Different use case. Both are creating value. I could also use that to come up with a really good assumptions on what we call the response curve. Okay, every business is saying how much if I put energy in, how much will they respond that? At what point do I stop pushing? This is my data in life, by the way. You know I put it. It's not getting anywhere. Maybe I should have quit earlier. But my point is that curve is applied. It's in people's guts, its institutional knowledge that purves should be algorithmic, and the more precise I can be about that curve. Quid after two days, Steve, it ain't happening kind of thing. Yep. So so note is that assumption. Is that curve drawn anywhere in the company?...

Probably not. Is it informing virtually every resource allocation decision in the company? Absolutely yes. So we can get smarter about reproductivity instead of and response and things like that. Again, the machine just runs better pricing. There's more leverage in pricing than almost any other activity. ALGORITHMIC pricing says, you know what, Benjio pay a lot more for a red car, because I know that our Benjie is really interested in this one TV show, so he'll buy the whole package, you know, at a heart at a higher price or not, and that's more margin with no additional resources. So we're barely scratching the surface of using the data in this molten sun in the middle to inform those types of things, cross sell, upsell, alerts that people are going to leave, signals that people are going to buy, even stuff like Eq. You know, at this point Benjie's looking at me saying shut up, Steve, you know I'm annoying. You know, whatever it is, but what? But whatever it is, it's on pushing data out. So you said it. If I'm in the middle, go north to customer intelligence, run the business, go to the you know, to one o'clock, talent. Why can't I use that information to develop talent? Three o'clock, allocate resources for clock pricing and margin activity. Yep, five o'clock, do south customer intelligence. Six o'clock, in form marketing activities. Seven o'clock. Make the channels run better in a clock. See that information back and get those systems working. One of the biggest problems we have is we've got a cycle this data through crm, because that's a painter glass that matters, and so if I can create a flywheel and create utilization of these tools, that's a driver. So it's not perfect, it's mutually exclusive, it's collectively encompassing, but at the end of the day is common sense and it describes everything that creates value in a company and attaches it to an action and a piece of technology. Wow, it was and now want to read a quote from the book here, because the what you just broke down for us is connecting the dots, which is what we were talking about before. Ultimately, everything you just said is that's what connecting the dots would look like and in the book you guys write the next generation of leaders distinguish themselves by how they get technologies to work together for them. The building blocks we've together in technology ecosystems that generate higher returns on their selling assets and grow sales, profit and firm value. Ultimately, the more dots you connect, I mean, the more wins you're going to have and you're going to see the how this works itself into massive success for the business. I want it. I want to take us here as we start to wrap up, how do you see as people start to apply this model how do you see this moving forward like? What what's your belief about the company's that choose to take this and really run with it?...

Couple characteristics. If you listen to what you said, it's almost like cuisine. Every chef has the same ingredients. It's the people who combine ingredients and even combine cuisines, text, Mex Yep, you know, things like that that are distinguishing themselves, say in music, right, mixing genres exactly exactly. Second, you need a chef. A CMO can't be that chef. The perfect chef has the whole cabinet of food. You know, they're acts. have access to the full pantry. And whether you do that by coalition, by dictatorship or we think the most effective people are going to be up dating myself, but the radar rilly of revenue ops, that that that lieutenant who actually runs everything, because they've got his hands on all the data, her hands on all the data. So one, you you need the chef to it's cuisine. And then three, I think is going to be very, very organic. You know, there's this whole thing, oh my God, systems, integration, lots of immigration in the book, when, again, with the Beautifu thing of the book is you probably read the only sentence I wrote, because most of the book is, I think, verbatim out of the mouths of senior growth leaders. But in the book we identified recipes that are working and that are proven and we start you off with, I think, eight or nine recipes and hundred recipes, some basic recipes, and we get some more advanced recipes, not like sufflice, but there's an infinite number of recipes. There are no rules and we call them smart actions because they're financially viable, they don't take a lot of political capital. Their leveraging stuff you already have and they build on top of each other. It's like a Lego set. So I really like that because, let's face it, change management is the enemy of commercial transformation and it's nice to say, Oh, we're going to do a big system integration, the big SAP project. This sounds like the SAP project that killed people in the s. It was necessary but painful. I believe this is going to be a lot more organic. You're going to see coalitions form and I think these thoughts are going to organically connect and I hope that's good news, because the whole notion of systems integration, you know, and paving a repaving cow has is an Athabat in the commercial world because in a genuine constraint is demandaging processes are highly unstable, you know, they're highly unstable and and so automating them is a little bit tricky. But this organic and actual nature, I think, is going to be the game changer here and I've been waiting for this happen for twenty years. So hopefully the time is right. I think we're a tipping point. I definitely think we are at a tipping point as well, and so I appreciate the work here. We've touched on a lot of information today. Obviously there's clearly much more that people can dive into when they pick up the book, and that's what we want to advise people to do. But as listeners take this and then they head back to their jobs and they head back to their businesses, is there something you want to leave us with as far as maybe it's a mindset shift or an approach that maybe because of this conversation...

...today, they're going? Man, I remember Stephen and Benjie that conversation on be to be growth sparked this sort of change in our organization. Anything you want to leave us with today, Steven, as we wrap well, I think the connecting the dots is critical. Every other business function, supply chain, factory, air traffic control, educating our children, heating and ventilating your building, has a system. There's an operating system at a computer. What is that? Just it got so complicated. I needed people to organize the people process technology. We've hit a tipping point where people call them tech mayhem. I got thirty solutions. It's I'm working for the tools. I think it's time to get the people process the technology working together and I think this leap to this notion of a pure at a table. You know, I know, I don't not promoting it. I just think it's a vocabulary that can get us to start to make some really tough, good, top down decisions and and hopefully, hopefully, that helps. It will, it will. The book is called Revenue Operations and new way to align sales and marketing, monetize data and ignite growth. It's available on Amazon now. We want to encourage listeners to go pick that up and Stephen, thank you so much for stopping by be to be growth today I know we've learned lots from you. Tell us a little bit on where we can stay connected to you and the work that you're doing. So I run an institute and our mission is to educate the next generation of growth leaders. We a profile growth leaders like cdw, who's doing a great job. So there's great examples on our website. We have tools, we have assessments, we have reports, but we believe education is our weapon of choice, and so I think you'll find a ton of case studies. We've also identified the hundred technologies. We give you tools and assessments. Will Give you a sample chapter. I'll work with you bench on which one fits this recipe metaphor. But I think you know we're here to teach. You. Go to Reveneme Oncom and I think you'll see some beef behind this conversation. Well, Stevens, thank you for stopping by be to be growth today. I know we've learned a lot from you. Thank you so much to everybody listening today. We are having insightful conversations like this because we want to help fuel your growth in your innovation and we don't want you to miss an episode. So if you've yet to subscribe. Be Sure to do that on whatever your favorite podcast player is wherever you're listening right now. Hey, connect with me on Linkedin if you haven't already. My name is Benjie Block. Over there some super simple to find. I'm talking about marketing business in life. I'd love to connect with you. Keep doing work that matters. Will be back real soon with another episode. I.

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