B2B Growth: Your Daily B2B Marketing Podcast
B2B Growth: Your Daily B2B Marketing Podcast

Episode 1663 · 3 months ago

Resonate and Stand Out with Joei Chan

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

In this episode, Benji talks to Joei Chan, Director of Brand & Content at 360Learning.

As B2B brands we are all looking to resonate and stand out in our content and media. Joei and 360Learning did this through an original series called Onboarding Joei. The short docuseries followed Joei Chan, a new employee, as she navigated her first 3 months on the job.

Conversations from the front lines of marketing. This is be to be growth. Hello and welcome into be to be growth. I'm your host, Benjie Block. Today we're joined by Joey Chan. She's the director of brand and content at three hundred and sixty learning. Joey, welcome to be to be growth. Hey, Vengie, thanks for having me. I'm excited. Yeah, so I was thinking about introducing you as like a movie star or Docu series movie. Sorry, I don't know a beat of be Star. I mean what? I don't know how to even say that. But how is that sound to you? Does that sound about right at this point? You're not gonna down of Docu series. No, some of our listeners are gonna know you for on Boarding Joey. It's actually now you guys have to business docu series. Two seasons of onboarding Joey, and then you got to season learning audrey. So yes, we'll dive into all of that. I love the Docu series, but maybe before we go there, tell us a little bit about you and your journey to where you are now. Sure. So, I am definitely not any like Daca series star whatever. I am an ordinary person working at a marketing a job in a tech startup. Some I'm the director of Brandon content at three hundred and sixty learning. Currently I manage so the brand and the content teams in my company and our mission is to grow brand awareness and generate organic pipeline across our key market. So that's US friends UK and Germany, and the team currently includes content, SEO, social media, campaign and PR, video, website, brand designed and evangelization. So yeah, it's a big team of seventeen people, which is kind of crazy because if you've seen the the doc is series, you would know that I started out as the only person in content and then kind of had to grow the team from from scratch. And it all happened within the last two years with covid and also, it's pretty mind blowing, before the six learning I was basically doing a very similar job in other startups also focused on content marketing. So that's really been my career trajectory and I come from a more like literature, art, creative screenwriting background, so I did not study marketing at all. I did not go to school for for business and I'm completely like learning everything from like on the job. So yeah, I don't know if a lot of people here would have a similar background or a very different I love the unique background that you have and I'm sure it's allowed some like specific flavor to come out. That's that's been helpful for you in your positions and in the growth that you've seen. I think when I think of content marketing specifically, it can feel a little stale and be to be it can feel like hitting a quota. So when we see something like a Docu series right it's like man, this is a totally different sort of left field idea approach, and that's kind of how you felt right when you first heard this idea to so walk me through how you were pitched this idea for onboarding, Joey. Yeah, I mean like so I can't take credit at all for the idea. It was from my then head of video, who was already working at three hundred and sixty learning before I started. So he knew that I accepted the job and we have met through my interview process a few times got to know each other. He knew that I was into videos. I wanted to start my own youtube channel but ever had like the Bendwid or the courage to do so, and so he got this idea of like hey, I...

...want to try something bold and something completely, like different from what we've seen from other SASS BTB companies. So are you in? Like I have this idea of doing a docu series. I want to literally film you every day for the first ninety days of your job through your probation, and we'll see how how that journey is like, what the on boarding process looks like for you, all the ups and downs, and whether you actually pass your probation, because in France it's a pretty big deal like that. You you have this three months where you prove yourself and then once you've passed it, you've got to like a permanent contract, which is harder to you know, be fired for, basically. So it's kind of like a milestone. And so he's like yeah, why not do that? Because our like on boarding is also one of our use cases. So that's kind of falls neatly into how we want to target our audience and what kind of things they will be interested in, but in a very like unconventional and personal and not sugarcoded way. It's not like we we are putting on a show where we show like a glossy version of what we want to present the company or ourselves as. But it's really like raw, authentic, unscripted real life, like reality TV show, but in a like more real sense of that word, unlike maybe the Bachelorette, where you know, there's scripts and yeah, still blossom. Yeah, producers would like kind of do things to make things happen and but like for us, it's completely real life. That was like literally my life. M Yeah, so that was kind of the concept and how it came to be. So when you and you might not even be able to put yourself back in that mindset now that you've done so much work on these docu scenes, but try to put yourself, Joey, back in what you expected before you guys started filming. So you say yes, but you haven't started filming it and you're going, I bet it'll be like this. What did you think? And then we'll dive into what actually happened, but I'd love to hear your expectations. I was thinking that I was going to be like small scale, homemade. He said he was going to film me on his IPHONE, mostly apart from the interview, which is when a real setup cameras and stuff, but most of the time was going to be. Like. So I had imagined in my mind maybe like some kind of bus feet type of vlogs saying so and and also, like the reach would probably be limited. Maybe my parents would watch it, maybe a few of our team and and yeah, I mean that I didn't think about it too much, but like, I think subconscious I was thinking it's going to be something that will try and we'll laugh about and move on, and I had no idea that it was going to make the impact that it has made and that we're still talking about it, to that we're still talking about it and a second season. There's a lot there. I think I would probably have about the same amount of expectations, honestly. Yeah, yeah, what were your plans? His plans, as far as number of episodes, how you were going to release it? What was the thought process there? Yeah, so he actually had a very ambitious plan. He said we're because like we're filming until the end of the probation period in real time, so to keep up the momentum and to make it like people really feel like they're following my journey. He has like kind of made the promise to the audience and I mean pitch internally that we're going to have one episode per week for thirteen weeks. So it's a thirteen episode show. So each week we're gonna he's following me around for four days documenting every day, and then on Thursday we have a sit down interview and then on Friday and Monday he would like be editing and then we're pushing it out like the following Tuesday. So every week, one episode for three...

...months straight. So it was pretty crazy and intent and I could a big promise and I think we did not fully understood the amount of work that it took for that to happen and get caught up with us after after a while, wet. What point do you feel like it caught up, because I'm assuming at first you have the excitement right, the energy behind it. It's a new project. Exactly what point in the project you feel like it's like, Whoa, this is a lot. Well, I think we need to mention an important element, which is like for three four episodes in covid hit and cold watching change this whole thing up in some ways right, because it adds such a special element to the first season. It's true. So I have to maybe I have to thank covid for like making this thing bigger than it is, because it completely blew up the thing where, you know, after three episodes we thought, okay, because the government is closing things down, I was in New York, I had to like come back and cancel a business trip, and he because we were told to work from home. He can't follow me around in the office anymore every day. So we have to like kind of figure out how to keep the show going on, and we actually addressed this and it's very metal like we talked about this in the show and me like, how can we keep this going if everything is shut down? And literally, when we're filming that interview, we had no idea what's going to happen. So it was very real, like the uncertainty. None of that was like made up or fate, and I think you know, that was also about the time where we realized, like it's going to take a lot to keep the show going with all the constraints. And it's kind of like what a lot of people are going through too, because they had to switch from working from the office to work from home. It's a whole different setup, it's a different way to to work, to communicate, to keep the team, you know, going and and manage people and all that. So we were kind of, through the show, documenting probably what a lot of people were experiencing a the same time, like the transition, the uncertainty, the anxiety. Also, like because when the beginning of covid nobody knew like how long was going to last. Like we didn't know that. We thought it was going to be two weeks right, yeah, that it was like forever exactly, and we did had no idea, and so I think we kind of capture that to the show and that has like really made the series resonate like so to so many people, because they're like, Oh my God, I'm it's like watching my life through this person that I don't know or this company of never heard about, but doesn't matter, because it's it's now a very universal thing that we're all going through. And we also pivoted from, I think, the more like originally was like a show about on boarding and then now it became like a bigger, like, you know, just life, employee life, journey through covid type. There's so many parts of this right where you had to just choose the step out, create something interesting and then the chips kind of just started falling, right, whether it was like the covid stuff or even choosing to do thirteen weeks. You have to at some point. You have to put a week limit on it, right and yeah, just kind of guessing and then you find out, okay, if we do it again, which you did it again, you changed a lot of stuff and we'll get to that. I did want to talk about, from a business perspective, what the original intent was, because then when the show blows up, obviously you're getting a lot of viewers and maybe they weren't originally who you were going after. So let's talk about that for a second. What was the original business pitch of the DOCU series for three hundred and sixty learning like, what were they wanting from something like this? So, the context understand this is probably that important to note that our company for a long time was built on Demandin paid acquisition, and that was what has kept the wheel turning for a long time, very predictable and...

...scalable. And then the brand teams kind of like a newer branch where, okay, now we need to like kind of think about how our brand is perceived, how can we get word of mouth and, you know, brand awareness and all the organic part of marketing into the company organization? That was not that was not there at all. So I kind of joined as a piece of that, like I joined to build like Seo and the blog and all that, and so video was part of that kind of brand organic strategy. And so that docu series was pitched as a way to generate more brand awareness and get more people to go to a website and then somehow convert them. So the original idea is that we would get subscribers from the show and then kind of nurture them and a turn them into M quels. And that was what was sold. And then the quickly we realize that, because it's an ungated video series, why would someone sign up? Right? Yeah, there was just not a lot of incentive for bill to sign up. And the now like sinking back. It's also even if people signed up, it's a long journey to like wanting to watch a docu series to wanting to request a demo for assass product. So that would have been needed, like a very long nurturing sequence that we did not have to have made that work anyway. So so we didn't like. After while, realize that we're not going to get a lot of sub crab us from this, but we are what we are seeing our like a lot of views, a lot of people like commenting and sharing and being excited and emailing us and messaging me about like how much they resonate with the show and how amazing it is, how they wait for the like they're literally waiting for the launch of the next episode. We're like Whoa, like, we did not expect it at all. You're signing autographs when you leave. Your an artist. No, but but I was like really crazy. So we were a saying, okay, there's clearly some kind of positive impact, just not what we thought, not in subscribers, and so we kind of pivoted and be like, okay, let's think about like this is a Tofu piece of content. Let's measure it with Tofu metrics and not try to get leads or whatever, and so we pivoted and focused on views and traffic and like just stop worrying about the conversion or the the lead aspect of it, and I think it made it much more liberating and also more appropriate for the type of content that we're pushing out. Yeah, at some point you're going this isn't maybe the metric that we measured is off a bit because it's a brand pass at this point right, like yeah, guys are the Docu series is tied to the company and people are going to see like both together, and that that's why brand is like pretty hard to to, to measure and even like Oh, yeah, to me about it. The opinions of the people have about when you should start to like build brand. I wonder your thoughts on this, even for like in startup culture. Would you have started now with what? With what you know? Would you have started a Docu series earlier because of the brand that it can build? I would love to know your opinion there. I think so. So what's funny is our head a video like who came up with this concept. He actually left the company and built his own start up and in his new company the first thing he was doing in marketing is Docu series and it's working really well for him and he sees the value of that. And I mean as a brand and content person. I probably will say, like that is something that I would like prioritize to its close to your heart. Yeah, of course, and also like just the fact that, I mean, look, we're talking about it two years after we've launched it. Like no what other like paid campaigns would get you this kind of impact. And you know, if you want to use the term Roy it's as less tangible. But...

...the reason why, the fact that it's less tangible and less easily measurable is why it will make an outsize impact, because if it's easy and if it's measurable and everybody's going to do it, then you're not differentiating, you're not doing something different, not taking a risk. So, you know, it's the like risk and reward, high ris high reward kind of approach here. I think it's not not saying that everybody should do a docu series and it's going to work for everybody, but like, this is one of the cases where, you know, we took a risk and they paid off. Yeah, we recently had Dave Gerhard on and his new book founder brand is like that, and it's this entire thing. Right, it's because so a big part of it is, like what's a medium where the founder can tell their story? And in your case you're not the founder. Right, it's an onboarding story, but it works really well with three hundred and sixty learning and the stuff that you guys are doing. So that makes a lot of sense. But even just in telling your story, having a way, whether it is a podcast, and that was in Dave Gerhart's, you know, situation seeking wisdom as a podcast that he was helping cohost, becomes like this huge jumping off point and they were building the podcast before the company really even took off. So it's again it's one of those scenarios where it doesn't have to be a Docu series, it doesn't have to be a podcast, but finding the medium that makes sense and being able to tell compelling stories, whether you have like the the sign ups are not. Clearly it's the present and it's the future. It's the things that we need to be thinking about. So talk me. It's a little bit more through some of the results you saw from season one and then we'll start to talk about the shift, because a lot changed when you when you decided, okay, let's do this again for season two. But what are some of those results? As you looked back at at season one, some of the key learnings? So I think that in terms of like quantitative results, what we saw were like view use like in in insane amount of views that we did not expect huge boost to traffic. We did a product hunt launch which we got a lot of referral traffic from as well, and it like lasted continued to come like even after the launch, which was surprising. So so I think those are like the number side of things and then like qualitiesive is really much more where it's at, like all the just the feedback, the excitement, enthusiasm internally also because, like most of the time marketing ship stuff and nobody else cares, but this one was really like we could feel the company coming together and be excited about it, and because it's also like part of their lives to write. They see their CEO, they see they're all hands, they see that we did something and and how how is like, you know, Joey reacting to it? How is she like, you know, dealing with this same situation we're all in? So they feel very much involved and that also helped amplify because they probably talked about it with their friends, they shared it on Linkedin, they tell their clients about it and then they also get feedback from their prospects and their client saying like, Oh my God like and then they feel kind of proud of this joint project that they feel, you know, kind of very much involved in. And then I personally got a lot of messages from people that I haven't talked to in years, like maybe even high school classmates, saying like Hey, Joe, we haven't talked a long time, but I saw this like crazy series you're doing and then reconnected with a lot of people. There are, you know, replies to my news letter. Let most of the time you just get like hey on, subscribe me, like and but like during the time where we're launching the these the episodes, I would get responses to me like, Oh, I really feel like I really resonate with what you're going through, or this is really helping me, or I feel seen. And somebody said like I was literally crying when I was watching this scene where you were negotiating your budget with your boss, because I was going through the same thing and I was feeling that I suck and I'm...

...not good to my job, but actually hearing you talk about it in such a kind of open way made me feel like, you know, I I'm not terrible of my job and it's just what we go through that was like one of the most, I think, memorable messages that I got, like things like that. And then and unexpected kind of benefit to the project was also that we realized it had a very positive impact on our recruitment. So, as any like fast growing SASS companies or tech companies, you recruitment is really a big bottleneck for growth and we've seen like candidates come in saying, like I've seen the on warning series and that's why I want to join this company because I feel like you guys are so different and and you know, I feel that you're transparent, also, because that's one of our company values, like it's to be transparent about salaries, how we do things, how we work processes and all that, and that that kind of series, the series is kind of like showing, not telling, way of like demonstrating that transparent and see part of our culture. And even today, like we use that as a recruitment tool to show people like hey, you want to know what a culture is like, just check out the series. Yeah, so that's kind of unexpected. I love the transparency piece because there's a lot of cultures that would talk about that and maybe they even have a good culture, but there's something about you guys making that so public that I think it's very valuable. It's risky at first because you don't know, but even just in the messages you're getting, like it's something that every company goes through like this, the types of stuff that you're showing are things that, yeah, I just I value that in your guys as process to choose that, and I mean I must say, even internally it was bold and not everybody agreed with it. Yeah, so, I mean it should be fought over, right. Yeah. Yeah, I mean like in some all hands meeting, I've got questions about like what we're showing on on Boarding Joey. Sometimes we show conflicts and kind of how things are not working. Like is this how we showing our company in a good light? Like are we showing too much, basically like airing our dirty laundry a bit too much. So we've got push bag and I've got some fire over it, and I mean like likeily, my CEO is like kind of into this being provocative and transparent, and like I had his back and that's why, you know, I was able to do it. But I can see how it might not fly in every situation and that you will get some people who would think that it's not a good idea. It's with every like kind of different or provocative thing that you do, there's going to be some people who won't think it's you know, it's the best thing to do, and so kind of have to be prepared for some opposition. Did you, because season two was done differently in just the amount of even, you know, thinking that went into it, because season ones, like we got to do. We're gonna try and then we're going to learn as we go. Season Two is we've done this once, we're actively choosing to sign up for another one and we can change that we want to change with the knowledge we have now. So even on on this specifically with transparency, did you rethink it for season two and have to make any changes or pivots? Yeah, definitely. So we've learned a whole lot in season one and just you know how much work it takes to like launch episodes in real time, to decide on the number of episodes before knowing what the story is going to be about. Like all of that we've learned and in season two we were much more thoughtful about it and thinking, okay, what are the stories that we have to kind of fill on the number of episodes. So much more thoughtful we've had to build around. Yeah, a freelancer involved who is screenwriter, so he brought in like also an another lens and perspective as well to help us built like story ARCS and which we had in season one by was much more lose. So my producer, then a key, had a loose story arcudn know how things were going to go, obviously,...

...so it can only be like kind of place holders, but it seemed too we were much more intentional about like the things we want to say and kind of develop. What was difficult was that there are people that I was hiring and interviewing and I didn't know whether they were going to be hired or whether they were going to stay or make it, and I have to take into account like what how much I want to expose them if you know they were not gonna stay, and like whether they would be up for what I was up for, which is kind of crazy. Not Everybody wants to do like to be filmed while you're going through on boarding and you may not make it. Basically you might have the world seeing you fail your job. How do you do that? Do you have them? Do have to tell them that they're going to be on the series or so? Yeah, I had to ask them whether they would be up for it and they all said yes when they because they were excited a about taking the job. And but then I think even during there were times where they will be like, Oh, maybe this we shouldn't record, or like can we keep this off? Like so there were some like, I think, adjustments that needed to be made. That was not as much of like I wasn't asked, I think, cautious as they were. HMM, in some of my experience versus there's which I can pleatly understand, and you know, I have a personality and they have theirs that I totally respect. But I think all of that made it very different and maybe for some people they they feel that a little less raw and like in real time. It was a little bit more produced and and that's, I think, the part of the reasons. HMM. Yeah, it's at tension to be managed right because like, yeah, there's just it's just going to be different. And also you were hiring way more people in season two and the growth is different and producer is not the yeah, exactly. So there are a lot of changes, there are a lot of more people involved. It's a different story as well, like it's on boarding, but it's not somebody on boarding is I'm on boarding someone to the perspective. And then, but how do I like still respect and kind of authentically portray the people that are not the main character or are like so, yeah, a lot of I think things to kind of balance a bit. And I also I was a lot more involved than season one so soon, when I was just like the the object, the subject, like basically the person being interviewed, and you know, just letting going with the flow and seem to have to think about like you're almost like partially directing and you're the still the main character. And Yeah, yes, so, so that was a bit difficult and I realize that. And then also like worrying about the actual like the real life aspect, like off camera, like I'm actually hiring people during Covid I've never seen a lot of them in real life before. How to make this work like that my real job off camera. So I think, and then considering their how they feel about all that first, before thinking about what's good for the show, because they are real people, they're actually going through the experience. So so I prioritise that persist. Okay, what's spicy or you know, I think it's fascinating to hear you just share the story. And then there's this element where I'm going for our listeners in marketing, let's say, in content. They love the idea of doing something provocative like a Docu series, or even let's go simple, like right now and be to be there's a lot of people that want to start podcast, but the time commitment to do anything like that. That's a little bit outside of the box. That's more creative. It's an investment when it comes to time, when it comes to resources, when it comes to thinking power and and making something. So I wonder for you how have you balanced your time? I...

...know, I'm sure it's not always done perfectly right. There's things that you would want to shift or change. How much effort, like were you giving towards the show versus other parts of your content strategy and things that are part of your job description? Yeah, I mean if you, if you've seen season one, you you would have kind of witnessed how I was like literally building out my content strategy. What I was doing from cratch building out like the blog, the SEO strategy, finding the agency and all that. So so that's like the majority of my job then, I think, and maybe I was, I would say maybe fifteen twenty percent of my time to this show of four season one. So we're filming every day and in the beginning when I was in the Office for filming every day and he was following me around, and then we're doing one one hour interview every Thursday. So you can kind of have a mental note of how how much time that is. And then when covid hit and we had to work from home, we would be doing like one facetime call a day, like a check in, and then my partner would be filming me working at home as illustration shots, and then we'll do like a sit down interview again like once a week. So it's like a couple hours a week type of thing. Let me ask you one question about season one. So for someone who's falling you doing video, doing all the editing, he's also on the team and he's does he have a bunch of other projects, but like this became sort of the main thing he was doing, or what was his focus? Like I would say, first season one. This is his main thing because, yeah, every day his filming and then he needed to edit and then also promote, like it a lot. Yeah, because, yeah, editing and then the promotion is was also a big part of it, like finding about, like getting as interviews or features in different blocks and then doing product hunt launch or figuring out like the the social push every every week, because you push the episode, but then we have a trailer like before too, and then, you know, you have to do the you know, the the editing and and like a square trailer and then all that things. And you're outside of that a little bit for season one. So it's it's taking up a bit of your time, but you're not, yeah, as all in versus season two, when you're wearing multiple hats. I'm assuming you're about to say that it took up a lot more of your time. Yeah, I definitely did, because my the the video producer, then he has left the company. He he stayed on to help produce the show because it's his baby too, but like he was essentially like halfway through the out of out the door anyway. So I had to own it a lot more, and so the coordination and then the promotion set of things was all on me. Yeah, I mean it was kind of a crazy time because I was also hiring it on boarding for people, so being very much like still owning everything that I was doing in content with and trying to delegate and train and on board New People, and then doing the the doctor series, it was yet time where I was working definitely more than like full capacity. So I mean, if we consider everything that was doing that time with still say that it's maybe like thirty percent of my time. There's still a lot of other things going on, but it's not out of a hundred. It's more like maybe out of a hundred sixty percent. HMM, it's a different way of thinking about it. Okay, so here's where I want to start to wrap up our conversation, Joey, is I want to focus on, first, how it's this whole Docu series experience, the two seasons of your show, and then, I mean you guys have done three how these projects have changed the way you think about content, and then we'll go outward focus here at the end. But how is it change your perspective on marketing and and maybe helped you in other projects that you're working on. So I think fundamentally it's helped me think that taking risks...

...are worth it and to want to do more projects that are different. And also we've got a also kind of now got a bit addicted to the stocky series format. Like we do want to do others. We're just like waiting for the right person and the right topic in the story. But I do think like this format. It's great and it's really fun to do and it's very and the best part it's very hard for people to copy. It's like first producing. It takes a lot more work than writing a few block articles. Yeah, and your three seasons ahead of anyone else who would try to start this. And and also like it's just the way, at least the way that we do it. It's very personal, it's very about like the people. It's not a tactic, it's a story. It's real, real life people, real stories, and that it cannot be copied. So so that is what I love about it and and what I think we will continue to do with the right person and angle and topic. And I think in general it's it's really defined our brand. Like a lot of people now associate three, six and learning with on Boarding Joey, and also defined myself also as a brand content marketer. All the podcast interviews I've been doing since the duck is series is about the DOCTA series. I probably quickly need something else to, you know, to pull out of my head. Otherwise we were like, you know, this is a one track phony, but like it's yeah, it's really defined my career almost in the in the last year two. So I am I've just become this advocate for like provocative, differentiated, authentic marketing content that only you can, can produce and only you can share in a in a way that people cannot replicate in the same way and and that creates such a strong connection to your brand and also, in a way liberating, because I think a lot of times, and in marketing content marketing, we have to position ourselves as the expert. Oh, I know this and I'll show you seven ways to achieve x, but most of time it's it's a lot of bullshit and it's a lot of, like, you know, a lot of trial and error, it's a lot of looking at what other people are doing and seeing if it's effective. I mean, yes, yeah, exactly. And so through like this Docu series format, and and just like being real. It allowed me, at least personally, to just admit that I'm not an expert. I'm just figuring this out. I've liked done a few things right, but I'm still like tumbling through a lot of these things and I think that people really appreciate when you're just being honest, because everybody actually is in the same boat and that allows us to have a much more honest and open conversation and learning experience, I think, together, not to try to be on brand here, but but like seriously, like you, once you admit that you're not, you don't know everything, then you can learn much more effectively and have a much more like real conversation with people. And you know, that's really how changed me. What's next, because there's not a season three. So you're talking about risks or worth it, you said at the right time, the DOCU series. But like, what's next for you, Joey? What are you focused on in this season? So there are few. There are few exciting things coming up for us. We've got a new brand video that we're launching. I'm working with this agency called Sandwich. They're like the best video agency that you know. In my opinions. I'm excited for that to come out and we also are in...

...working on a book to be published. We might be doing, you know, a bigger launch around thing actually I cannot talk about, so I just scratch that your launch of something good teas. But I think it's also like for me currently, I think as the team has grown and they're more people, more creatives within the team, I'm also taking a step back in in the sense that I'm not focused on, okay, what is the next idea I can push out, what is next project, but more about like how can I enable the team to do that themselves? So it's a new set of challenges that I'm I'm learning to navigate, which is like more management problem, like a leadership challenge, like how do I I know I can personally do these things, but like now I need to figure out how I can able and scale the team to be able to do it and not have to be involved in every project. And that's a whole new, completely different job. It's not about how great I am. I creating content is about, like how can I motivate inspire people? How can I fit the right people in the right place and and enable them so that's where my my current challenges. Maybe it's a it's another podcast down the road where we check in on Joey's leadership and we don't talk at all about the Docu series. That will be the goal. What happened on a podcast where we talk about all the great content and other stuff you're doing, because there's a lot. But I am super grateful for your time to day, Joey. Thank you for sharing your story. Thanks for the transparency. I love the the risk you guys have taken. There's a lot for us as marketers to learn from that and so I really appreciate it and and thanks for sharing. Yeah, I apreciate the chat. It was great to just like think about all that again and digest and it was very insightful conversation for me too. Well. We're always having conversations like this here on B tob growth. So make sure you are subscribed to the show. If you haven't yet. Wherever you're listening to this, you can do that and you can connect with me on on linkedin talking business marketing life. Joey, what's the best place for people to connect with you and stay up to date on the work you're doing and then also for three hundred and sixty learning as well. Yeah, I would say Linkedin also. It's where you can connect with me and and what we're doing at to sixty. Perfect well, thanks for listening, everybody, and keep doing work that matters. If you enjoyed a day show, hit subscribe for more marketing goodness, and if you really enjoyed the day show, take a second to rate and review the podcast on the platform you're listening to it on right now. If you really really enjoyed this episode, share the love by texting you to a friend who would find it insightful. Thanks for listening and thanks for sharing.

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