How To Use Data to Predict Buyer Intent

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

 In this episode, Olivia Hurley talks to Kerry Cunningham, Senior Principal in Product Marketing at 6sense 

Hi everyone, welcome back to be, to be growth. My name is Olivia Hurley and today I am joined by Carrie Cunningham where you are the senior principal in product marketing at six cents. I'm thrilled to talk to you today because you shared with me the last time we talked this really unique perspective in the way of A B. M. That I'm really excited to impact because A B. M extremely popular. We hear a lot about the front side of setting a strategy in motion, But I've heard hardly anything about this, not only 30,000 ft view, but but the start to finish, um, motion. And so I'm excited to unpack some of that with not only your experience as a marketing practitioner, but as a researcher coming from forster, could you share what you shared with me the last time we talked. Yeah, absolutely. I love too. And thanks for having me today. So one of the, there's kind of a misunderstanding in B2B today about uh, account-based marketing and and how it came into being and what it's really supposed to be. And as you and I talked about before, what's really true is that back in the old days, back when I started in my career and B two B everything was account based because nobody had any leads. And so if you were going to sell to a certain set of accounts as an organization, you have to understand what that set of accounts was. And then marketing's job was really just to create content and things to enable sales teams to go penetrate those accounts. So back in the old days, marketing and sales were pretty well aligned on what to do and it was account based because there wasn't really any other options, So we're not saying that's great. But then along in the late 1990s, early 2000s came digital marketing and particularly when marketing automation came along a little bit later on, we started getting this influx of inbound leads people coming to our websites and filling out forms or responding to emails and in a sense, the B to B industry kind of got drunk on that. I mean it was pretty cool after struggling to just do outbound prospecting forever from the beginning of time. Now you have people coming and telling you who they were and what they were interested in and give you their contact information. Pretty hard not to get drunk on that if you will and kind of over indulged. But what happened during the period of time is that B two B organizations sort of forgot that the buyer would be to be is not an individual person. You may get somebody to come to your website from a target account, fill out a form, but they're very, very unlikely to be acting alone. The research that we did at serious decisions in Forrester Show there's something like between 85 and 95% of B2B purchases are made by groups of people acting together and the number that varies, there is really just because if you're selling an enterprise solution to a company, if you're selling something that's an important business system to an organization of pretty much any size, it's going to be multiple people involved in that decision making process, just like the simplest thing that everybody knows intuitively. But when you think about how that works, then when somebody comes to your website, if they're from a target account, if they're actually going to buy something from your organization, they won't be alone. Right? That's the key thing to understand about this, is that person that you see filling out the form. If they don't come with friends, their organizations not buying anything if they're the only one on your website. They're curious, uh they're interested in your solutions for professional reasons, maybe they're interested in the job or checking out the competition to their own solutions or something, but they're not about to buy anything. Now, it was very...

...difficult in existing systems though to see whether that's happening. So if you're relying on marketing automation, typical marketing automation systems that most organizations use, you can't see that there are multiple people from the same organization demonstrating interest at the same time, leads come in, somebody fills out a form and you may do some lead scoring if they consume a bunch of content, uh and then you pass that along to an SDR B or somebody like that. And and and these leads, these individuals just come in one at a time. And the thing that you miss in that picture is, well, maybe you've gotten three or four leads from the same organization just in the last couple of weeks and you'd like to think that somebody along the way would notice that that was happening and we think to themselves, wait a minute. You know, there's something happening in this organization. We've got three or four leads. Unfortunately, just the opposite happens. What happens most of the time in that circumstance is that the second lead goes to the same PDR process, the first one. And let's say that the BDR produced an opportunity for sales from the first lead that came in, they get the second one, they look at it and they go, well, I can't get another opportunity here because I just passed one along and sales is working on that as a BDR s, I can't get paid now for working on that because I get paid for producing opportunities. So to me, that's a duplicate lead, we already have an opportunity for that. Uh, and then the third one comes along and the fourth one comes along and the market all duplicates and off they go into the ether, when rationally, if you step back and look at what's happening, you be like your hair would be on fire to be like, oh my God, these people are really interested, we need to make sure that sales knows about that, that everybody takes appropriate action. It just isn't the way it works. And B two B. Today. So you know, when you think about, you know, part of what the A B. M. Movement and B two B was trying to do is correct for that. Just like, okay, that's, you know, all of these leads are nice, but if they're not in the right account, if we don't have multiple of them. But the problem then is that the systems that are in place operate the same way that they do. So A BM. You try your A B. M. Program, but if they're operating on top of the old systems that you have just marketing automation, in sales force automation, uh you're still not going to see that you have these multiple leads and you're still relying on some human being to notice and then do something different than what they would normally do sometimes happens, but most of us don't want to run a company on that sometimes happens, right? Not really what we want to have the organization based on. So that's what we're trying to do is make it possible to see those find teams, those multiple individuals and all of the various kinds of signals that they give off on the way to making a purchase decision for their organizations. That's fascinating to me. I'm super excited to talk about this. So, so right off the bat my questions are around this lead scoring process. So In the 90s, I think you said lead scoring is new. We all got drunk off of it. Um, well I was four maybe, so I don't think I was people drug. Yes, I would have been. We've been so excited. So can you share a little bit about what, why lead scoring was inaccurate and some of those assumptions that it was based on? Yes, sure. So you know, one of the things that, it makes total sense that when you have people coming to your website, they start consuming content. You want to see which ones are really interested in which ones are not. And that's, that's why we have the scoring scoring is there to say, you know, it's just the right kind of person that's part of the score and then are they demonstrating a lot of interest or maybe they just came by our website by accident. Now if you're a B2B organization, it's very unlikely that people come to your website by accident.

You know, your graphics aren't so great that people are coming to come and look at what you're doing in that respect. So it sort of made sense to say, well we want to ferret out the really interested ones and make sure that we can see those and the way that we're going to do that is, we're going to look at how much content a person consumes on our website and if they consume a lot will score that and then we'll send the ones that consumed a lot more content on to the rest of the organization. Uh, that seemed like it made sense at the time. There is a kind of logic to it. The problem is, I've never seen any evidence nor has anybody else. I think That there's a relationship between how much content one individual person consumes and whether their company is about to buy something. So lots of people go to websites and look at content for lots of different reasons. And some of those reasons have to do with being part of a buying team. Many don't, most don't. And so most people are, they're just looking at your content out of maybe some future interest. So past interest, but they're not part of an act of buying team. How do you tell if they're part of an act of buying team? Well, like we just said a minute ago, they came with friends, right? So now if you had two people from the same organization and they're both consuming a lot of content, that's a much much stronger indication of their organization's interest than it is just one person. And if you add a third person, you think, wow, okay, something's really happening here, Right? So you can take that old lead score that by itself doesn't actually mean much. And this is why marketing and sales have been divided on this issue for so long. Marketing's been saying, hey, here's this guy is consumed. A lot of content has a nice title and sales has to follow up with that person when they do what they find out is that person was just consuming a lot of content, not part of the buying team. And so that's what we have to figure out. We have to figure out which ones are actually part of a buying process and that's the one that sales needs to focus on. Okay, so the buyer is not a person, an individual person and and I love what you said to me last time you said the buyer is not an account and I love that you said that's not as wrong, but it's well wrong. So the buyer is now a group of people within an organization. So is the buyer a department? Yes, that's a really good question and distinction to make. So if your organization sells more than one thing, that means that the account is not the thing that you actually should be counting, right? So if you sell three different solutions and account represents three different opportunities for you to sell something, three different revenue opportunities. So if you're really trying to count what's going on in your data and how you're doing in terms of converting prospects, what you really need to be looking at is how many potential opportunities are there and how many of those are converting now for most organizations? You might say well if we have a solution for the HR department, we have a solution for the finance department then you have two different buying centers is the term that we use to different parts of the organization that that make their own decisions about what to buy for their organizations, how to solve their problems. And so really need to start counting is all right. How many how many buying centers are out there? Um How many buying centres does each organization represent? And then each buying center is going to have its own buying team, its own team of people who are going to go out and solve problems for that buying center. And you know it can be confusing sometimes because if you're buying, if the HR department is buying a new solution, they're going to have people from it on that buying team. All right. They're going to have people from outside of that department. Um And so that guy's the head of I. T. Here is going to look at solutions that the HRT advice that person might actually be a prospect and on another buying team that you're interested in as well. All right. So it gets complicated but...

...that's the way it actually works. And B2B and so the more that you can address that complexity, the more accurate your go to market plans can be your measurement of what's going on and all that can be. That's so Funny that that and not surprising when you, when you explain it like that, that of course the buying process in B to B2B space is as complicated and nuanced as like human buying decision anywhere else. But so Clarification again, is it that the in the B2B space, the buyer is no longer an individual person or is it that they never were just an individual person? Great. I love that question because people are very, People are very fond of saying now, Oh, the virus changed and B2B I don't know that we know that, you know, we didn't nobody kept track of how many people were involved even up until very recently. But it's really unlikely that in the 1970s, if you're going to buy an IBM mainframe, that there was one person making that decision, I'm pretty sure there were dozens of people involved in that decision for your company and the same thing all the way up through all the way through the history of the baby. So I don't think in terms of whether it's a team, a group of people working together. I don't think that's ever changed. What has changed and changed for the really great for me to be solution providers is that now we can see it. So now you have because so much of the buying process happens digitally and when it happens digitally it leaves a record. So now we have this kind of vapor trail of all of the activity b to be buying teams, whether it's anonymous activity or they filled out forms or something like that. Um and you can see it also now you can understand what that actually looks like. What does it look like when one of our customers is going out in the market to look around for stuff and what does it look like in the middle? What does it look like at the end? How much content are they consuming? Where are they going? That stuff was all invisible just a couple of years ago, you preempted my next question and I think they're, I think you'll probably reiterate some of what you just said. But I'm curious if there's more mentioning that now you can just see that there are more people involved in the buying process because of the information and the technology but but was their research that you saw or were part of that proved that the buyers no longer just one person. Was there ever like a watershed moment for you in your career? Sure, Absolutely. So back in my days at serious decisions in Forrester which were only two months ago, we did a lot of research around the nature of the fire and what the buying process was like. And so we've had research for years that have said that the majority of B2B purchases are made by teams or groups of people, not individuals. And the most recent versions of those research of that research would suggest that that numbers, It's more than three people 85 90% of the time. If you ask the buyer, If you ask the seller, they'll say that there are probably more than five or 10 people involved 90-plus% of the time. Um and they, you know, you get different answers from the too, so buyers will say who is on my team and they say a slightly smaller number when you ask the seller, who did I have to involve and who was involved in that purchase, they say a little bigger number because they're thinking everybody probably, But whatever number you look at, it's a pretty big number for purchases for an organization that are more than about 250,000 annually, that number's certainly in double figures and it may be closer to 20 people involved. So you have your a B. M. Strategy in motion now assuming, you know, you know, as just the like the hypothetical marketer here and this just discussion, you know that your your lead scoring, you've, you've kind...

...of worked it so that you have what you need in place for a really strong A B. M. Motion. Um One thing you said to me the last time we talked was that a lot of people have a B emotions that are set in place and they work really, really well. They start they attract and go after target accounts. They bring multiple stakeholders to the website to start consuming content. Um But that the reason their A. B. M. Motion might break down later is because it worked initially. Can you unpack with that what you meant by that? So there are a couple of different things in there. So part of the reason that a B. M. Program would work and really what it's designed to do is attract and engage multiple members of that buying team. But also to if you've got the reason that somebody a company would be in the Arabian program is likely that you can sell them more than one thing and you want to cultivate that whole account and have multiple cross sell up sell opportunities and that kind of thing. So a lot of organizations went out and did a good job of selecting the accounts with sales and marketing together and then going to attract and engage multiple buyer personas. But then they built those programs right on top of that marketing automation and sales force automation process that was there before. And so even while they're attracting and engaging multiple buyer personas, they don't really have the ability to see and report and act on that. So that was still stuck there. So when you when you launch that program you still may get a lip like you're focusing more marketing and sales attention on a smaller more highly vetted set of accounts and that's going to produce a better result than whatever you were doing before. So that's great. But the problem is you're not going to optimize what you could be doing unless you can see all of the results that are coming from those accounts. So if you're if you're not taking advantage of all of the buying signals, if you're not using all of the traffic on your website and the third party intent plus the leads to focus your attention and make sure you're working those highest propensity opportunities. You're still not going to be really focused on that. We saw some research recently back and forth or which showed that for the first year two of an A. B. M. Program, marketing sales both agree that it's working and you see them their satisfaction with the program going up. But after a couple of years, what you see is sales belief that it's working start to go down while marketing's continues to go up. And so you see this divergence in sales and marketing after a little while and well, I don't know, we haven't been able to do the research to understand precisely why that's happening. You can imagine that after a little bit of time sales is still out there trying to figure out how to penetrate accounts and all that marketing is now producing more and more leads from the account, but without having the right machinery in place, the right infrastructure in place to to see all of the signals and to put them together in the right way and package those insights for sales. Still not helping nearly as much as it could be. Hey everybody Logan with Sweet fish here. If you're a regular listener of GDP growth, you know that I'm one of the co hosts of the show, but you may not know that I also head up the sales team here is sweet fish. So for those of you in sales or sales ops, I wanted to take a second to share something that's made us insanely more efficient lately. Our team has been using lead I. Q. For the past few months. And what used to take us four hours gathering contact data now takes us only one where 75% more efficient were able to move faster with outbound prospecting and organizing our campaigns is so much easier than before. I'd highly suggest you guys check out lead I. Q. As well. You can check them out at lead I Q dot com. That's L E A D I Q dot com. All right, let's get back to the show. Okay, so my question then,...

...of course is how do you then propose that the marketing and sales work together so that instead of that satisfaction going down, it continues to rise and they're they're able to use their technology and uh strategy to have a consistent A B. M. Motion. First of all you've got to have a really solid system in place for identifying that set of accounts that you really should be focused on. You know I. C. P. Or ideal customer profile has to be agreed on. That doesn't mean that you have to have a predictive analytics and Ai to figure out what that is. If you know that you sell to 50 companies across the world you don't need a I to tell you that. But what you do need is a really comprehensive way of seeing all of the signals from those buyers that help you understand where to prioritize your time. And that means one you need to be monitoring the internet generally for digital signals about where those prospects you care about our in market. So that means third party intent in the way most people use that term. You've got to see that buyer behavior that's outside of your digital walls. If you're a small brand you need that so that you don't miss deals. If you're if you're a small brand in your space, it's very likely that there are sales that are going on that you never even find out about until it's over, right? And you've lost. And then if you're a big brand and you know that everybody is coming to your website who might be interested. Now you have to distinguish the ones who were there just out of curiosity from the ones who are really in a buying process, and the way to do that is to go look and see if they're looking at somebody else. Right? So, if you're a big brand in the space, you want to see that this is a buyer that's looking at your competitors and they're engaging with third party content on this topic that can help you validate, yep, that activity I see on my website now is a real buying process. So two different use cases, kind of depending upon what your, what your market situation is. And then the biggest thing is you have to be able to bring all of those signals together in one place. So, if there's third party intent out there, There's anonymous website traffic, I haven't really talked about that yet, but 95% of the traffic on your BDB website is anonymous at least. Uh, and so you've got to understand what's in there and then you've got those people who have filled out forms for events for looking at content and all of that, all of those things, all of those signals are flawed signals, if you take them one at a time, but if you put them all together, you can get a really robust picture of which prospects are actually in market what they're interested in and how to best engage with them and then you've got to be able to use all that to present to the folks internal, you're going to use it, one to focus your marketing attention in dollars, let's put it where the most likely outcome is going to be good. And then to enable the Sdrs and the sales people going forward so that they can see what that prospect is interested in, can see what they've consumed, understand which of the buyer personas are involved in those kinds of things. So that's really what it is. Is being able to bring all of those signals together in one place and make it consumable and usable for the revenue teams as they, as they try to generate that revenue. So one thing you said that I am fascinated by so mentioning the your prospect, first of all anonymous website traffic, you need to be able to crack in and and get far more insight from that. Um, so I want to unpack that a little bit more. But before I, before I do that you, you mentioned that you want to know that your prospect is, is potentially looking at competitors and that's a really strong buying signal for you. I'm sure this is a question that most marketing practices know the answer to. But how do you do that? There are a number of providers of 3rd party intensive. So intense signals are really just the record of which...

...companies are visiting, which websites, which publications, which social media influencers and all of those. So organizations can tell from pixels on their website and other things which companies are coming to visit them. There's a lot of technology involved in trying to figure out where that anonymous traffic is coming from. And that's something that some organizations do particularly well. We think our organization does that really, really well and others don't. But you know, when you think about the fact that 95 or so percent of the traffic on your own website, if you're a B two B solution provider, almost all of the traffic on your website is anonymous. And if you're like most babies solution providers, you're not a household name for the general public. Uh, nobody knows that you exist except organizations and people in those organizations who have some professional interest in what you do. Now, that doesn't mean that every one of those people come to your website is a potential buyer, but it doesn't mean probably a substantial portion of them are and it doesn't take many of those anonymous visitors to outweigh the ones that you know about. Since you only know a couple of percent of those virus. So we think it's just extremely important to do everything possible, understand what's in that anonymous traffic. If I'm talking to a VP of demand or CMO or somebody in that position, what I would say is you have already paid for that anonymous traffic. You know, your, it's very difficult to get people to come to your website and to look at your content. You spend a ton of money on it. You've already gotten these folks who are their anonymous there? They're already showing interest. You can't, and it's not legal to track them by individual as an individual person and try to figure out who they are, but you can certainly know what companies are coming from. And when you think about it, if I've got just one lead from an account that's not particularly interesting, that's what I'm saying. But if you, if you know, in addition to that one lead that there's a bunch of anonymous traffic this month from that same account and we don't usually get traffic from that account, but now that account is on our website and honestly, and we have a lead now, that's very interesting. And that's what's important about seeing these signals together. None of the signals by themselves are particularly good leads. Not particularly good anonymous traffic by itself. Not particularly interesting. Even 3rd party intent by itself. Not particularly interesting, but when you put them together, you can make something very powerful to identify where you should be spending your time. That really brought together a lot of things that I've heard, as I've talked to many marketing practices while sitting in this seat that I'm in. And this is really like just solidifying, you know, pillar that runs through so much marketing. That's really started to make sense. Really thrilled about that. My, my curiosity is clearly a BM is incredibly important going to be this thick vein through anyone's marketing strategy. Are there scenarios where an account based marketing approach isn't valuable? Yes. So if you sell to Companies of 1, 2, 3, 4 people, something like that, Okay. If you've got a lead from one of those organizations that plenty, you're going to look for three or four or five leads in a bunch of anonymous traffic, that's fine. So if you're selling to very small organizations than maybe I'm gonna lead based approach, we'll get you the same thing essentially. That's really it for circumstances in which the account-based approach isn't the right one wherever your buyer represents is multiple people. That's...

...really you should be taking what we think of as this account based approach. So what results can people expect? And I guess my my general question is what results have you seen with this? Like start to finish a B. M. Approach? If we can get to reduce it down to just that terminology for a second, what results will be seen? Well, you know, the actual number is very of course a lot. But virtually every organization that implements an approach that takes account of the fact that their buyers, a team of people who allow, who enables themselves to see more of those signals see substantial improvements and you don't actually have to do everything to get improvements. And I think that's one of the things that's maybe the one of the most important messages that the audience could here is that there are small changes that you can make to, how your revenue teams operate today, that will produce a big change in the outcome that they produce. And you don't have to do everything now. But some of the things that are really important to do, like seeing multiple signals together and seeing that buying team signal are a big change to a company's process. So for instance, what we'd really like to see is if SDR teams are trying to penetrate target accounts, they absolutely should be going after multiple individuals. If your outbound prospecting into an account, they will always be trying to target multiple individuals. But often today, when we get a lead from one of those accounts, the SDR will just call that one person, send them some emails and if they don't respond, they say they're done with it, it doesn't make any sense. Right? So, uh, here, here you have a target account where you actually have a signal of interest already. So why would you not do your best to penetrate that account? Now that you've already got that signal? So just getting organizations to think differently even about that, if I get an inbound lead from an organization that's a target organization, I got to take an outbound prospecting approach to finding out what's going on there. And so even that approach will produce substantially better results than the ones that they're getting with the current process today. So, you know, we see results in terms of pipeline generation that, you know, we're not talking about small incremental improvements. It's not a 234% improvement in many situations will see 25 30 40% improvement. We've seen that in clients going back to the Forester days just by implementing a small set of the improvements, especially seeing additional signals and then operating on them together. I love that if you, there's, you don't have to do everything, but there are a couple of things that you should do and and that's that's probably most practically how it's going to start anyway. Right. These small process improvements, these small adaptations instead of turning over the whole apple cart. I'm curious too about just having seen so much in the way of A B. M. If there's ways that you've seen people attempt or plan for a B. M. That's maybe incorrect. Or like a red flag, maybe I can guess a couple of them already. Right? Not not noticing all of the buyers signs or styling the intent signals, but but some may be thinking some a little bit more about this processes and the domino effect of Arabia. Sure. So first of all, if you're in marketing and you can't get your sales colleagues to engage with you and agree on the set of accounts and the segments that you're interested in then don't bother. So you've got to stop and reset and figure out how to make that happen? Because that's the essence of it is making sure that wherever you're generating demand, it's inside a set of accounts that sales can and will go sell two, there's really nothing more important than that. And...

...if you can't do that, you can't move further along. It's not really going to help very much. The next I would say is ensuring that you do see multiple signals and that what you're doing is you're focusing the human beings in your organization str salespeople on that set of opportunities that is really going to be their best potential set of opportunities to win. Not the ones that just show up or they look best there. They have the best title of a lead that came in, but really where's the opportunity that we have the best chance of winning and making a good customer? And then the next is use everything that you learn in the top end of the final to enable the SDRs and the sales reps lower down. So they need to know for sales are up for SDR, their investment in an account that they're going to go, try to penetrate. You know, it's, it's substantial. Takes a lot of time. Takes a lot of energy. Uh, and so they need to understand when marketing passes off an opportunity, Why is this a good one? You know, why? Why is this 11 I should go pay attention to and not another one. Why should I spend so much time and energy and this potential opportunity as opposed to whatever else I was going to do and marketing often thanks. Well we got our scoring down or something like that. So sales should love it. Now. You've really got to go find out from sales what's important to them to understand about an account and that's what you ideally will give them Now. If that doesn't make sense of what they say, it doesn't make sense. Then again, you have to go back to the drawing board figure out why aren't you on the same page about what a really good prospect looks like. I'm curious about many things as I said, but I'm with this philosophy and this oversight of an Evan a BM strategy. Do you think that there's maybe a lack of knowledge or true definition around a B. M. That that maybe causes less of this fully fleshed strategy to be in place or is it is it that there is like opposition from a different camp? Why do you think this maybe isn't a commonly held practice? Well, I think there are a few one is just history. So you know, we came through this period of time where everything was lead based and people's understanding our understanding of what's good and what works is evolving and so it's not a static thing and you can't just flip a switch and say, okay, well we were doing that yesterday, but this is the right way today. This doesn't work that way. Doesn't have a whole generation really of marketers who were kind of brought into business and learn how to do things in this lead centric world. And it's not an easy thing to say. But now we're going to think about the world differently, right? You know, some people will get that, but other people have to come along a little more slowly. Plus if you're a big organization and your whole operation is set up one way, just say, okay, but well now we're going to do it differently. I mean, you know, people's livelihoods, their paychecks are at stake, there's a lot involved. So that can be a big transformation. It's part of the reason we say, you know, let's start with a piece of it. Let's make sure that we enable your Sdrs to be super effective. Give them all the signals and the insights that they need to be effective. We can go from there right now, if you're a smaller organization rip and replace, change everything all at once, that's fine. The bigger ones, you have to start a little more slowly. So I think that's really where we are, is that we're in a period of time when we're evolving that what is the best practice is changing as technology allows us to do more things and we can't really underplay that because the technology say five years ago, didn't allow you to do the thing. A lot of the things that I've been talking about today, it does today. Big part of the reason I came to six senses because they've got the tech that lets you do it. And so that's a big part of it as well. I really...

...appreciate how measured your approaches to A B. M. And I appreciate that marketing allows for these incremental changes and that there's there's so many ways to approach marketing and A B. M. As it becomes increasingly popular at there's research and data to back up that it really is one of the most effective approaches. I'm I'm I really appreciate that your temperament on this is start small and grow and expand and see those results that are that are so compelling for and that come from a really strong maybe in motion. Yeah, I want to clarify one thing that you can take an incremental approach to what you change, but when you change the right incremental things, you can see next level performance and what we're talking about is not Is not incremental improvement because that's that's really, you know, what organizations have had over the last 10 years or so. It's just an incremental improvement where 1% better this year than last year, 2% better this year than last year, that's fine. But one or 2% better than what you were five years ago if you're doing lead management, B two B is not good. It's just really not good at all. And so the changes that we've been talking about, seeing these buying signals, seeing the buying team moving those things forward, you can make incremental changes saying how your sdrs see and work with those, but that will produce beyond incremental improvements in your performance. That is an excellent clarification. I'm so glad you said that. I'm super excited for anybody who then try, goes and implement some of what you're suggesting. If there was one thing that you wanted marketing practitioners to take away from this episode and just really kind of drive home, what would it be? Mm that was really hard. I guess. What I would say is that there are lots and lots of different signals available to help you understand which potential buyers and opportunities you should be focused on and you cannot rely on just leads anymore. And but moreover, you can't rely on just any one of those signals. You have to be able to see them together and act on them together because any one of them is going to lead you astray? Well, there you have it carry. Thank you so much for joining me on B two B growth. How can listeners connect with you and learn more? About six cents? Sure. Well, we're at the six ounce dot com. Pretty easy to find their um, you can find me personally on linkedin, uh, and I'm relatively active on linkedin, so very happy to have anybody uh connect there and comment on what I've said. Tell me they think I'm full of it or have some idea to kick around. We're always happy for that. Oh, man, that's great. Thank you so much again for joining me on B two B growth. Yeah, Thank you Olivia and great, thank you. All right, and sweet fish. We're on a mission to create the most helpful content on the internet for every job function and industry on the planet for the B two B marketing industry. This show is how we're executing on that mission. If you know a marketing leader, that would be an awesome guest for this podcast. Shoot me a text message. Don't call me because I don't answer unknown numbers, but text me at 4074 and I know 33 to 8. Just shoot me their name may be a link to their linkedin profile and I'd love to check them out to see if we can get them on the show. Thanks a lot.

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