B2B Growth: Your Daily B2B Marketing Podcast
B2B Growth: Your Daily B2B Marketing Podcast

Episode 1714 · 6 months ago

A New Position in an Existing Category, with Rowan Tonkin

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

In this episode, Benji talks to Rowan Tonkin, CMO at Planful.

Over the past 3 years at Planful, Rowan has focused much of his effort on defining their category in a saturated and mature market. Clearly, you can't just go off and create a new category without a ton of planning and intentionality. Today Rowan shares some of the difficulties they faced and the lessons learned throughout this process.

Conversations from the front lines of marketing. This is be tob growth. Welcome back to be to be growth. I'm your host, Benjie Block. Today I am joined by Rowan Tonkin. He's the CMO over at planfull. Rowan, welcome to the show man banks, Benjie, excited to be here. Appreciate you having me on. Glad to have you here and I know the last three years have been eventful for you at plan full. Much of your effort really spent on defining a category and we're going to dig into that a bit man, especially in for you guys, are very saturated market, a mature category. So let's start with just some of the scope of the project you took on rowing and then we'll dive in here throughout the next twenty thirty minutes. But give me an idea the scope of the project and give our listeners an opportunity to hear that. Absolutely so. Our company has been around since two thousand and one, very mature playoff in aspice, and we were required by a private Equity Company vect capital at the end of two thousand and eighteen and they sort about kind of investing in the business for growth, which is an exciting time to come into as a CMA. Right. Like we were a great company before and we're trying to make it even greater with even better growth. And you know, a few things had changed in our space since the company was founded. We had moved to the cloud, as one of the first vendors moving to the cloud at that time. But there was a new set of disruptors coming into the category and there's still, you know, new ones coming in today. Barriers to entry a low, barriers to success are high and at the time the company was called host analytics and that didn't really represent the our customers, our users every day. And so one part of the remit was to rebrand the whole company, which is one thing, but also, as you're doing that rebrand, you want to think about your position in the market. How can you create a space and a niche for yourself that you know, helps byers understand what you do? Visa v a mature space, and so that's what really the remit was and is, and now we've kind of found out our groove there. But this is never ending, right, like the categories, whatever we decide to label them, they're always changing. Competition, external forces are always changing for us. Yep, yeah, I think it's there's a lot to dig into here, but I know when it comes to category creation, it can be this feeling of like well, or at least that's how we act, right. You just kind of go off and you create it and man, it's this new thing and it's our someome and it's almost like it's not difficult. But anybody who's done it knows like it's extremely difficult. So give us any, any unique set of circumstances that you guys were kind of faced with that your team has had to navigate specifically. Yeah, I think the the glorified stories come from categories that just get created from nowhere and so you know, whilst we all know that's not easy, it is easier than when you're in a mature space. So when you know, I'd been in the space before, I'd worked for a competitor and we had changed some of the category at that point in time. To write, we were one of the newer players into the space. Our space has been around, you know, since the late s early S. it's been classified as enterprise performance management and you know that was defined by folks like our friends at Gardner Right, and it was a very, you know, at that time, burgeoning category. Lots of good, you...

...know, good vendors, some had fallen away, some had got acquired, lots of MNA and and then obviously the race to the cloud happens with those on premise solutions moving to the cloud. But the category definition from a you know, like people in the know, it was always still enterprise performance management. But really, I'll buyers had never called it that. Like no one, you know, types into Google. I'm looking for an EPM solution, which is, you know, where it's as we have to acronym everything. Yes, no one was really looking for it that way. And so what we wanted to do we shift it to a name the company more about our audience and what they do every day, which is, you know, in our world it's planning, financial planning and analysis. is a really big market that we serve and those people are planful. It's a verb, and so we just we decided to name our company after them. That was one big shift. But then also, as we think about the category, you know, it's really hard to go and you know the twenty two amidable laws, right. You know, if you can't create a category go and create a secondary category within that category, but it's really hard to go and create one when it's already been very mature. And so we want and wanted to decide, you know, what is it the really value add that we offer our customers and that's unique about our platform, and how do we fit in there? And obviously naming the company planful was a good indication that we think about this as a planning a planning process. And you know, for those finance teams, you know working with CFOs in the world, they have teams called FPNA and they help us do our planning every day. But we have some unique capabilities that help us stand out and that is, you know, being able to close the books and consolidate multi entities, and so we thought of that as more continuous planning, being able to accelerate those cycle times for business users like ourselves and know where we are at every the end of every month. And if we can accelerate that, then then you can do certain things. So we decided to anchor on this idea of what we call continuous planning, which sounds fantastic right. In practice, March, two thousand and twenty hits and everyone's doing that. I don't know if everyone remembers, but I was certainly planning far more frequently than I ever had been before. So, you know, I don't know whether it was lock or whether this was just going to happen naturally anyway, but planning cycle sped up rapidly and so for us, this category definition that we had had kind of create, well, not created, but adopted from another analyst, you know Rob Google a Ventana. He had created this term and it really met the needs of what we serve and how we deliver our value to our customers, and so we went and created it in that way and it's become a term that is really picked up momentum. But there's some challenges with it and I would love to really talk about some of those. But any more questions before I move on? Yeah, I'm excited to get to the challenges, but I want to talk about, just from a high level, these conversations that you were having. I wonder what was there, like a specific sort of question that you really were posing to get you to that place of going, okay, we're no longer going to be identified with enterprise performance marketing. Let's go continuous planning is there a helpful question in that process. Yeah, so the first one was what do our bios call this category? Like, okay, what are they? What are they lord of the searching for it seems so obvious, right, but you know, we often get stuck in definitions that analysts or other vendors make up, right, like, which is literally make up these terms because we don't know what to classify something as yet. There's always this natural classification that happens by the buyers and and so, you know, when you think about financial planning and analysis professionals, they call it planning software, and so, you know, we really wanted to anchor into a category definition that...

...they call it. But there's some uniqueness there that we had which made us want to you know, you can't just call it the planning software category. Needs to be is it financial planning as a marketing planning, like planning for what? And continuous planning to US encompasses a much broader set of capability. And so that was the primary question that we wanted to ask of ourselves. And then also, if we label it that, will the buyer identify with it? Will they understand what that means? And and and that is probably the best second question you can ask, because if they don't, you have to spend all that time, money, get money, energy, investing in telling them what it actually means, versus then intuitively knowing and and so we were kind of, you know, on the edge. They're really people knew what planning systems were, but did they really understand what we meant by a continuous planning system? That could be scary to some folks in our in our industry? Did so? Was it just testing the market with that messaging? Was it talking to some specific people, like what did that look like? Yeah, so it was. You know, I'm blessed here that pretty much the whole company is financial planning experts. So we talked a lot to our internal team members about what that meant to them, what value it had, what was already out there, you know, like if you go and adopt a category definition, you have to also make sure can we own it? Right? Is this something other people have already defined? Right, because if you're going to create a category, you want to make sure you're either number one in it or you own that category. Seriously, again, back to twenty two admitable laws, right, so very kind of very much. Can we own this what's already out there? If there's some stuff out there, like how deep is it? How well understood is it? And so what we identified was that, you know, there was some stuff out there, but we could still go and own it, we could still make it our own, we could still provide a ton of value on a ton of explanation to folks. And then did it pass the you know, the smoke test? DID DID PEOPLE RESONATE WITH IT quickly? And it turns out they did. So it worked really well for us. It's one thing, I guess, to be sitting in a board room and go, okay, we're going to be this a new thing, and now it feels like you have all this white space in a sense, right, like we've created this new category. But the reality is you still are going back to customers, you're going back to clients who they know you as something and you're going to have to now say we have our current features, we have our current product, we're going to have to tweak our way almost essentially to this New Vision that we have. What is that look like? To have to take people along for the journey while you know where you're going, but ultimately you're still with where you're currently at right? Yeah, the good news is it wasn't a complete pivot from one category to another. Can it's still made a lot of sense. And so, you know, as you think about the scale that we were at, we were already a large company. We've been around long time, very mature, and you still want to make sure you don't want to alienate your customers, right, if you go and define a new category, do a bunch of your existing customers then look at you and say, well, that's not what I bought, I don't resonate with that, I'm going to churn and go somewhere else because that's not my vision. Right. So you also have to be really clear about that and that was something that we spend a lot of time during that evaluation process trying to consider, like who does this alienate? What does this do to our existing set of capabilities? And you know, we felt like it's still really resonated with our customers, but it would still need some explanation. Right, it is a change and you still need to tell that story. It was also at the same time...

...that we did the rebrand change, so it kind of made sense, right, so lump them together. Yeah, you're communicating not only just a name company name change, but you're also then being able to say we change our name to this and we have this vision and it's an extension of the you know vision that was their prior but this is where we're taking this company. So we're telling that story to our customers, to perspective, you know, to the market really. But as you then think about that, you've got to try and understand or right, where does this fit? And so internally we think most of your audience would understand and use. Eugene Swartz has kind of definitions of awareness right in break or advertising. If you haven't read that, go read breakthrough advertising. Fantastic book. So our customer set, they're the most aware people, right, and and we can define this category for the most aware. The question then becomes is, for the unaware people of you, of your category, does that make sense, even in the middle, right in the problem, a where solution or where product aware, does that definition actually make sense? And how much are you going to have to change and navigate that category creation with all the different stages awareness, and what techniques are you going to use throughout that? Yeah, so in your guys, as mind. It was if we can inform the unaware and then we can also really create evangelists out of the most aware. That's how we win right correct. For the first while we actually were spending too much time talking to it to the middle stages, right, like you think that would be the the place where you need to spend the most time on category creation and category kind of definition and that explanation. But those folks just didn't really it doesn't really resonate them because it's not the pain that they're experiencing today. But once you then start into, you know, more use case level marketing for them, Hey, you have this planning, budgeting, forecasting problem. Great, we can solve that for you and now that you're more aware, I can tell you about our vision for that in future. And if you spend too much time right like cold calling, Hey, do you need a continuous planning solution? People like they don't even know what that is. Right. So you're going to make sure that where your you meet your customers where they are and be mindful that your category May Not meet those customers where they are often and as you then can bring them along. How do you tell them through their own journey but through your journey what this category means to them and how you can help, and that ultimately defines your position in the the wider market. Did you feel that sort of tension, in that need for like just small weeks throughout as you're going, okay, we know we want to meet these clients. You know where these potential clients, where they are, but also we want to explain our new category. I'm sure there's like a rush to want to try to explain. Yeah, and and it's not just you know, like you can be as thoughtful as you possibly can be, but you know, when you get something shiny and new, right, like you know we we've all built cool stuff, right, and you just want to show people and you go into the end level of detail and you show them and they're like cool, I don't even know what that thing is yet, right. And so you know what we found through listening to, you know, call recordings, looking at, you know, email responses, just looking at facial reactions on video calls, you quickly understand that they don't resonate with it immediately. That like that immediate Aha moment doesn't occur until you kind of say, you know, here's your existing pain. Here's how we fix it and here's our vision. And so if you lead with the vision,...

...they just don't get it. And so you know that that understanding came from a lot of that market testing earli up. But when you're when you're doing that evaluation, when you're even considering the category, How do you do that? Right, like you go and talk to your customers, but there you're most aware people. You like, does this make sense, and they're like yeah, of course it makes sense. Yeah, I was already bought in the you got and test the unaware people. I don't even know who you guys are. Yeah, that seems to make sense. But trialing it in the middle of your yeah, and I didn't have the benefit of time, right. I didn't have the benefit of, you know, trying to spend six months rolling out a new category. We did this, you know, alongside a rebrand. I joined in September, thirty of two thousand and nineteen. The regrant happened on the sixteenth of January, right. So really, really kind of important aspect is, do you have the time to go and test every stage of that funnel? Hey be to be growth listeners. We want to hear from you. In fact, we will pay you for it. Just head over to B TOB growth podcom and complete a short survey about the show to enter for a chance to win two hundred and fifty dollars plus. The first fifty participants will receive twenty five dollars as our way of saying thank you so much one more time. That's BB growth podcom, letter B number two, letter be growth podcom. One entry per person must be an active listener of the show to enter and look forward to hearing from you. Trialing it in the middle of your yeah, and I didn't have the benefit of time, right. I didn't have the benefit of, you know, trying to spend six months rolling out a new category. We did this, you know, alongside a rebrand. I joined in September, thirty of two thousand and nineteen. The rebrand happened on the sixteenth of January. Right. So do you have the time to go and test every stage of that funnel? So I wonder. You taught. We talked a bit about the most aware group, and it's one thing for them to get it like okay, you're doing this new thing. It's another to go we want to turn you into essentially evangelists. Right, we want to not just have you get it cognitively, but we want you to be so excited about it that you're actually helping with our marketing. You're turning into someone that's going to I see what they're doing and I really like that. What were some of the ways that you guys went about turning these most aware group, this category, this group, into actual evangelists for what you were doing? Yeah, I mean it's very typical with any marketing organization. We all want social proof of, you know, whatever it is that we're doing right. You want people using your words, using your definition, and ultimately that's going out and finding those those uses that were already doing this thing anyway. It's not like we just came up with the term that, you know, like no one was doing this thing before we came up with a then we had to go and build it right. That's the the flip side of the benefit for us is that we were a mature vendor with customers that were already doing this. We were just giving it a definition that was new and that we felt would separate us. Right like Blue Ocean strategy would create a a niche in our market. That allows us to win against the competition. And you know that every time you go and do blue ocean, they're going to swim over and try and find the fish too. But we thought we had an advantage through the product capabilities that we had. So we're going to look at those customers that are behaving exactly like what we wanted to find this thing as and say, Hey, you know, we're working on this definition. We call it this. Do you identify with that? And they do, and then you say, all...

...right, let's work together on a demonstrating that that's what you call it. And we were lucky in that. We had our well lucky. We had our user conference scheduled for the May right and we were already working with customers to tell their story at the user conference. So that obviously didn't happen in person, but it happened virtually and we got them to tell their stories in that way. And then you also then have to go and shape the other influences in your market. Right, who else is using this terminology? As I said earlier, one of the analysts in our space had already labeled this term and we took it on as our own. So he was very happy about that. He's like wow, they're like they're going and championing this term which I had created. We started to see competitors use it more and more, not as their core message, but in their blogs and in some of their thought leadership. are another way to a seeing it. Yeah, it's and that's good, because you can't create a category alone if you're out there alone and then that that's hard. But it was good to see that they'd adopted that. And and then also you need to bring other influences along to not just customers. So, you know, working with the social proof kind of the GETWO's of the world, the trust radius is of the world. How can we get that term brought into those areas so that it becomes more proliferated? And we were, you know, somewhat successful in doing that with some customers writing their reviews using our terminology. And you know, we haven't completely got there where those categories as defined in the in the dropdowns, are what we call it right. It's still planning, budgeting and forecasting or close management or planning software, right. So you know, obviously we want it to be exactly our definition, but our competitors have different definitions. To. So you know, it's we're all trying to outposition each other. Yeah, maybe, maybe, someday, that's that's a whole right. Yeah, just not quite. Will emerge the winner, right like if you can, if you can emerge the winner from that in that space and everyone starts using that term. The challenge that we have is, again, it's very mature space. There's lots of different analysts that call it different things and and we're on that journey alongside the rest of the competition to try and figure it all out. And you know, this is really worked for us over the course of the last two and a half years as we've rolled it out, we've adopted it in, we've change the way that we do it. Right, as I said before, we used to try and really force it down, so you know in all the middle stages. Well, we stopped doing that and kind of let it come naturally and that's been a much easier way for those middle stages of Awayenas to adopt the term and leverage of the term. But you know, the every day they're out there hearing from some other vendor on, you know, planning this, planning that, and and so we've got to continually demonstrate, like Why our vision is better than theirs and use social proof and and use, you know, metrics in our way to prove you mentioned it earlier, and then, know, when we chatted offline as well, we were kind of laughing about how it's easy to talk about how great category creation is and then the reality of just the difficulties, and there are. I think we are guilty as marketers of making it look like, man, look at all these amazing metrics, the all these ways we've succeeded, but it's also there's a lot of difficulty behind the scenes to get those big wins. So run highlight a couple of just man these. This is what makes it very hard. or like some roadblocks you hit? What were some of those difficult things that you maybe didn't expect that you would encounter in this category creation process? Yeah, so, I mean firstly you've got to go through and again, you know, this is a business that have been around for a while. We had lots of content, lots of assets, lots of SEO built up, lots of and the question then becomes, well,...

...does do we just find and replace right literally, yeah, that's the question. Hey boss, do we just click find and replace and just anything that was this term is now this term. So, wow, it doesn't quite work like that. What did you guys land on? Like, like could take me through that process, because I could imagine it be okay. If it's not find and replace, it gets a lot more complicated. So what do yeah, what do you start exactly? And and so it's so firstly, the the old definition that we use of enterprise performance management didn't just fall off the face of the planet, right. So there's an element of okay, we want to be more inbound with this type of term, right, so we still know when someone searches for that term, like we don't feel like it's the most common term to be searched, but when they do search for it, we want to be there. You got to show in one of them change the vision, right. So you can't just find and replace, because then you just drop off the face of the planet for that particular you know, search term before using searches an example. So it's defining really and spending a lot of time on your content order. Where do we want to be inbound? Then? What's the journey from inbound to then getting more this is how we want you to talk. And so what's the flow, the content flow through there? What's our pillar pieces of content? Do they does this New Vision Right? New Pitch Deck, new sales deck, new narrative, new SDR messaging, all like the kind of good news for us is because we were doing it at the same time as a rebrand. It had to change all of that content anyway, right. You know, there was an easier part, which was fining to replace old company named New Company name. Right. But as you're going through that content anyway, updating it in the new you know, new color scheme, all of that stuff, you're then able to then assess each asset and say is this something that is worth keeping, yes or no? Does it require a change, yes or no, and then prioritize that change. How important is that asset amongst all the things that we can do? And so we went through that exercise. You know the team, you know the hours that were put into that. Was Amazing because we did in such a short space of time. But then there's still a phase to clean up that you have to go into afterwards. So really important to phase it that as you go through that phasing you're also learning along the way. Oh, this part is working in the sales pitch deck and this isn't resonating in the pitch deck. Let's adjust that. Oh well, we adjusted that then, if you think about that, well, we also need to adjust the way that we talked about it in these ten blogs that we already had updated, right, because now they don't make sense. And so those core pillars were really important, those core assets were really important to just continuously iterate on. And you know, we live in a world where you think you get it right first time. Every time you don't. So and you never plan right your everyone's project plan ends at go live. Yeah, the finish line, but it's actually the start line. Yeah, and and thankfully, you know, I'd done some of this at prior company, so I knew there's going to be phase to phase three. And as you're going through the initial set of work, you're like, okay, we'll clean this up in future, but what you think you'll need to clean up change as a whole lot. Like the prioritization just changes. So what was phase too becomes phase three because you learnt everything from phase one. So you just got to be willing to shift, willing to ensure that you are listening right. Sales had, you know, really positive feedback initially and then there's like Oh, but this isn't working anymore. My old talk track, which used to work every time, doesn't work anymore. How can I make that better? So there's a lot of coaching that you need to do there...

...with any change in strategic narrative, but, more importantly, at the market wide definition. I think we got it right and now it's about just, you know, more than nuance. And you spend so much time in that nuance, especially in a mature market, because you know if you get it wrong you can lose strategic advantage with a your customer base, like we took talked about earlier, but you can lose some advantage in the way that you think you can out position or really out ultimately, we think our software is better, the right choice for these different types of customers, and if they don't identify with that, then you're losing those perspective customers up front because you messaging your whole umbrella messaging doesn't work. HMM. Okay. So because this is partnered with the rebrand, one more question, just on like pillars and distribution plans. So your what's the first piece of like main pillar content that was that you released following the rebrand? Is it just to educate the market and kind of going back to that initial conversation, are you going to the unaware or was it multiple plays at once, also like to activate those most aware? What was that distribution right right when the rebrand hit? Yeah, so the rebrand was a funny one. So we did the roof, funny, scary, all of those things. All the things we did the rebrand at our internal you know, we having physical kickoffs, right in person kickoff events. So we did it at our sales kickoff. As everyone walked into the event, they had all their host analytics badges. You know, all the signage was host analytics. We go into the room and and then we announced, you know, we do the the drop of the new logo, the website changes. You know, my whole team were sitting in another room of the hotel flipping the website during that day to make sure all of that goes live. And as we walked out, you know, their swag bags there with the new that, you know, the new brand, the new logo, new messaging, everything right. So it was is very we thought through a lot about the physical change for the employees and doing it there was a really pivotal moment in in the company. But from a buyers perspective, you can't forget about all the different stages because, so you know, from the unaware perspective, you're announcing the new brand to the world and therefore, when you have a new brand, you have to give them a reason why you changed, but also a new vision. So that New Vision was the new category effectively, and what that meant for our existing customers and future customers. So you try to handle the unaware and the most aware. At the same time, you obviously have to communicate to all your customer base. You're most aware, your partners, your you know we have resellers, you're you know, anyone that's a stakeholder of the company. You have to communicate all of that and then you've got to communicate all your demand Jenefforts. Right. So every prospect in your database. Today, we know we announced, we are now planful and you know this is why we change the name. Here's the reason behind it and here's our vision for the future. And have the content and the assets that underpin that in the vision for the future. So you try to do it all at once and I don't. I don't believe in that circumstance where you're doing a name change as well as a position change, you can miss an audience. You have to do it all, otherwise you're going to be left with some large gap of a very frustrated potential sales team or frustrated customer team or frustrated see who and board right, like some, you know if you don't do it all, you're going to piss off someone, and so you've got to do it all and you've also got to be willing to accept. Well, where am I okay with this being imperfect? Right? Where am I co okay with this being, you know,...

...a little bit maybe unclear, unless you spend six months doing it? I didn't have that. I didn't want to have that luxury of time. We wanted to move fast. So we had to accept that and we aid more on the side of we want the unaware and most aware to be more on the perfection side. Right. We didn't want to alienate our customer base, we didn't want to alienate our employees, didn't want to ailien alienate anyone involved in the company. Unaware was very much thought leadership. We wanted to share this with the market, make it big news and then, as you think about you know like existing you know existing prospects in your database. Well, thankfully you've got sales people to help explain it right. So that's where you can leave at a little in perfect. People in the demand Gen funnel like the problem of where you kind of got to make that perfect. So that's where we kind of ended. So I imagine there's a few groups of people listening to this. I often think of our BYB growth audience as just a Lauren droom right where we're like in this hall together and you and I are chatting, and so there's a few groups that are listening. You have a group that is going to resonate because they're currently in the process of doing much of what you did, whether it's around category creation or it's a redesign of some kind, it's a rebrand. That's the ones that this will immediately resonate with right away. Then you have people that are more along lines of where you are now. Right it's a few years down the road. They're not going through it right now, but they've been through something. And then you have those that are listening going okay, it's great to hear you talk about it, but I'm not. I'm not going through this right now. I wonder rowing can you kind of just talk to marketers more broadly for a second and go looking back at this process that you've been through? What have you learned in this that applies to maybe your marketing day in day out, when it's not just I'm working in a rebrand like. What did you learn from that whole process that has really stuck with you in the work you do? Yeah, number one, and to always be evaluating your positioning in your narrative. It's never perfect. Number One, right, and you know, I've been a number of organizations where it's well defined and you like Ah, set it and forget it. Right. This experience has certainly made me realize the importance of just continually testing that, continuously listening and being ready to adjust and being to willing to adjust. Number two. I think that is is first and foremost the biggest learning. The second learning would be always have anchors back to you know what you're trying to do in a way that resonates with you, know, not just your marketing team but everyone and and for us that's been using the stages of awareness because it's conceptually people get it really quickly. Right. Okay, with this group, we're going to talk about it in this way with this bucket of people. We're going to talk about it this way with this bucket of people. We're really going to invest in it and talk about it this way and and that helps everyone across the company, from exact team members to, you know, a brand new hire on the HR team, to an str to a new a, to your most tenured a. That would be again, I think, make sure that you have those pillars well understood, well communicated across the company so that they can you know, they can be your evangelist of this to you. Just don't rely on the marketing engine. I love that well willingness to adjust and then anchors back to those core messages which, if marketing is doing that effectively, is going to help every other department in the organization. Yeah, really, you definitely learn that in the process of having to go back through all your content, right, like we were talking about earlier, and then you're just thinking about positioning messaging constantly, which is something we need to be doing, but it is easy. I can say we're not in that season right now. We're...

...not, you know, and I think of set it in, forget it and it feels good because you're not having to revisit it. But we all know sometimes we wait too long and that content that wants resonated so well in the market maybe man and in the times when it's moving so fast, we have to be, you know, ready to pivot. So I think that's a good challenge to really leave us with today. Absolutely, and it's hard work. So you know, like there's inherent understanding of like, Oh, do I really want to go and tackle that big initiative right now? But you have to, because otherwise, you know, the world's changing too fast. Yeah, Yep. Well, this has been a fascinating conversation round. Thanks for diving into some of this. I know there will be listeners that want to stay connected to you as well as here a little bit more of know we've talked through the story, but just maybe high level like what planfull does, where they can get more info on on you guys as well. Yeah, so hopefully, if you're at this point, you've realized what we do, given we've talked a little bit about about that, but yeah, we make you know planning clothes and consolidations solutions for your the office of your CFO, typically working with financial planning, your vp of finance, your control and your accounting team to help them do their jobs in a more efficient, more effective way, and that in turn helps you, typically these audience right in understanding your business better from a financial metrics perspective. We speak every day and operational met tricks, pipeline, qls, S, why Lana, all of that stuff. Learning the financial metrics will make you a bit better Markeda or better sales person, and and that's what we try and help finance do, is make you elevate. You A financial IQ. Best Way to connect with me is on Linkedin, unless you're interested in rugby and golf. If you're interested in those two things, go to my twitter at Rowland Tonkin. If Not Linkedin, Rollin Tonkin. I'm the CMO of Plan for love it. We should have definitely talked some rugby. Man, I grew up overseas and I'm so sad because over here it's not as big. Actually, I will say in Austin rugby is growing and so it's a happy site to see. But I had planned a trip Benjie to go and see the guilt teeny's versus the Gil grownies in La this Sunday, and then I quickly realized it was mother's Day, so I cancel with my trip. Well, I'm going to a soccer match for mother's Day because my motherinlaw loves soccer, so we will be at the Austin FC game on Sunday. But awesome. Thanks for chatting to all our listeners. If you haven't connected with me, you can do that on Linkedin as well. I encourage you to do that. Talk about marketing, business in life over there and always happy to connect. If you haven't followed the show yet on your favorite podcast player, please do that so you never miss an episode of BB growth. We're here to help fuel your growth and innovation, so we'll be back l soon with another episode. Keep doing work that matters. Rowan, thanks for being with us today. Thanks Ji.

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