B2B Growth: Your Daily B2B Marketing Podcast
B2B Growth: Your Daily B2B Marketing Podcast

Episode 1748 · 2 weeks ago

How Narrative, Category, & Community Work Together, with Kalim Aull

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

In this replay episode, Dan Sanchez talks with Kalim Aull about his new model called the Brand Evolution Flywheel which incorporates a Strategic Narrative, Category Design, and Community Building into one fine art.

Take a look at the visual model he created for reference: https://sweetfishmedia.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/07/Brand-Evolution-Flyweeh.png

Conversations from the front lines of marketing. This is B two B growth. Welcome back to BTB growth. I'm Dan Sanchez with sweet fish media and I'm here with Klim Oh, who is the CO founder of service cycle. Gleim, welcome to the show. Thanks, N I appreciate being here with you because I guess I could say welcome back to the show. This is actually a second time we've had you on in the last couple of months. Klim is somebody that I see often on Linkedin and he first popped up in a huge linkedin post that I had with a huge, like just a massive amount of comments. We were all arguing and talking about what the heck demand generation is, because I was frustrated because after reading about it, I still wasn't any closer to understanding what the heck it actually was, because it sounded like marketing. It sounded like everybody had different definitions, and he stepped in this awesome graphic that brought a lot of clarity to it. Now we ended up doing a show with them on that, with Leslie Cruz, who did a deep dive on bdob growth just a few months ago, and I know you were one of those episodes and that was great. It was just super helpful. But recently he popped up again in my news feed with another, in my opinion, like a game changing concept, and I was like, I think James Tagged me in. It was like Dan, you have to look at this, and I'm like yes, welcome back to the show because I wanted to talk about it. And the concept that this is is called the brand evolution Flywheel, right, and it incorporates three major parts of Narrative, category and community. It just so happened to be three things that are like the hot topic and B Two B marketing right now, because everybody's talking about strategic narrative, category design and building authentic communities, and the way he pulled it together into this concentric circle where one plays into the other was a very fascinating concept. Now it's when you look at the effeck and off the link to it in the show notes that will describe it in more detail as we go because we're going to talk about the three major sections of it. It's you have to kind of stare at it and it it requires thoughts. Like you know, it's not as clear as the last graphic I saw where it's kind of like concentric circles of like a B M in the middle and then demanding and then brand on the outside. Like that was really simple. You understood it immediately. This one, like, actually takes some steady but still brings a lot of clarity to what I think there's are three major topics that B two b community is talking about but is grappling with how to put them all together. So, to kick it off, can you tell me a little bit about like where did this brand evolution fly wheel come from? Like where did the Aha moment come to you? Yeah, you know, to be honest, it's a process. It's been a process of, you know, listening to experts in each of these individual areas. You know, you've got your Andy Raskins for strategic narratives, you've got your Christopher lockheads for category design, you've got your song ground as rays for community building. You know, I'm watching all these people, listening to them, but I'm coming at it from more of a macro, you know, go to market type of look all the time, and and from the sustainable growth perspective of go to market. So, Um, you know that that bigger GTM vision that I always have, combined with me seeing the value, uh that that all these people are are bringing, allowed me to start connecting the dots and see how these categories are phases play out over your g t m cycle. Right, so you'll be you'll you'll start out much more heavy on the narrative, even though technically you're doing all three of these things simultaneously all the time. It's not like one to three, but it is like waiting. Right, you're waiting whichever phase matches your GTM position. Right. So what phase do you think people start with the most when it comes to narrative? Why? In...

...this circle, he has it as narrative on top, which kind of flows into category, which kind of flows into community and then flows back into narrative. Which one is the starting point, since it's a circle? So look, you can frame this model in many ways. You could choose your own starting point. In a sense, there's no problem with you know, you may might have been building good relationships in the sense of community before you figured out your narrative totally, and that's what kind of revealed your narrative to you in the first place. They're also connected that there isn't really a starting point, but I could evolve first on purpose, because it is like there is a prioritization, because you can't really build community effectively and efficiently and and make it happen at the scale that's required without a truly evolved narrative. It's like the first requirement of every in order to have something that's worth unifying around, right. I mean you can't launch out the gate thinking you have it all together. It always is an evolution. It's always a thing that has to be figured out over time, totally, totally, and I think that you know what we're what I'm what I'm trying to suggest here is that the purpose of all of this is to create unity around something, massive unity around something. That's what the purpose of narrative is, and category it's not, in my opinion, it's not to be number one. You end up leading the category. That's just a byproduct. But if you think you're number one, you may fall into the trap and you may end around one cycle and you may not reinvent yourself because you think you're number one, and so you don't learn from the community, you don't build community at a level that reveals the next narrative evolution. Right. So I'm very wary of even calling myself number one. I get nervous about that. I'm like weld, no, hold on, hold, on, hold, on hold on the market will decide if I remember one or not. I don't have to say that for myself right. But my goal is to always evolved that narrative and then create unity around it. That makes sense. So it could start with community, could start with narrative. I'd be hard pressed to say it starts with category, because usually category has to start with a narrative of some kind. If you don't have a narrative, you probably don't have a category. Even as I think back to sweet fish media, in the narrative we've been telling, it probably actually started in community because James is just so relational. You know so many people. Has Been Collaborating with lots of people and then out of that the narrative around BTB podcasting has been forming, which has kind of created a category around B two B podcasting over the years, and now it's it's I can see it swinging back into community. is where even now trying to figure out how to create a stronger community than there already is. So around and round it's been, but let's start at like narrative, because I feel like a lot of things probably could start there. Oftentimes people start companies because they're like, I'm scratching my own Itch, I had a problem, which is the beginning of a narrative. Right. Um, I know that's how you got started. Now, sweet fish got started as James. James wanted a way to meet more people and he discovered that podcasting was a great way to get conversations with lots of people on top of making great content, and that's how he started the way he does. B twob podcasting. So when you look at narrative, how does it start with that, and what can companies look at? Two kind of kick start this process? Yeah, so, you know, I I do. I do come from the stance of solving your own problems first. You know, I believe that personal frustration, personal struggle, it is the raw material through which great raatives are built. So,...

...you know, I I think that we do. I think we do too much of trying to kind of right narratives for other people a little bit, when I think that you have a better probability of success if you can solve your own problem and involve that narrative for yourself. Most of the successful companies that I've seen, or people actually don't not even companies, just people. Right. They solve they have a period of frustration, there's some sort of problem and over time they figure out a new, better way because there is no alternative, like the problem is so irritating to them that they are like destined to bring that new approach. So I think that, you know, a lot of people will jump into the old world, new world. Old Game, new game, which is perfect. I'm a hundred percent on board. This is how you finalize it into a deck, right. But that all that came from, you know, the garden of frustration. If it doesn't, you risk you risk potentially confusing see Um, if you're guessing a little bit too much. There is something powerful about the founder's story. Probably one of the most powerful narratives you can have is that narrative. I realized not everybody starts with that narrative though. You might have bought the company, you might have inherited the company, you might have risen up the ranks and it wasn't your story. But now that you're the CEO of the company, right, there's there's many reasons why it might not be your thing, or you just started a spotted a market opportunity, you were familiar enough with the field and you capitalized on it, even though it wasn't your problem, Um, to begin with. So it's not always you don't always have the luxury of having that, though. If you do, man, that's such a that's such a strategic advantage that you have over others in the market to be able because you have, you have the feel yourself. It's not like you need to go talk to your customers, though you still need to talk to then, but you don't have to do it quite as much to have an intuitive feeling whether something rings true or not, Um with the product and with the marketing and messaging. So there's something about that. It is really strong. But what would you say for everybody else? I mean, do you try to be an old game new game? Yeah, so, so that's the ideal. I'm painting the ideal for you. There the other way it can work. So it's not like, uh, you know, an ultimatum or anything. If you are in that situation where you know you just you took over the CEO role and now you're running, running the business, and you know the division is with you. I would hire somebody. I would hire somebody. Either either you are that customer in a sense, or you need somebody who does this right, Andy Raskin, or there's many others right, but but that's the first name that comes to my mind. So I do think that either you have that personal experience, that frustration, and you solve the problem for yourself, so you are that, you are one of the segments of customer in a sense, or that's not the case and you need to collaborate to have a higher level of capability to be able to find it exactly. so that's how we discover the narrative. How does that bleed over into the category? Yeah, okay, so here. Here's the thing is, I believe that the narrative will tell you what the category is if you do, if you flush it out, well, the word will surface. Once the narrative is clear enough, the word becomes obvious, or the two words, whatever the category is called. So I think that what you start to notice as you get through these you know, old game, new game, old world, new world, old behavior, new behavior, old results, new results. Right, if you flush all those out, all of a sudden the words that you used to describe those things, the category comes out at you because you're describing the essence of old and new in...

...such a precise way that it's almost begging for this word. All Right, I think the problem is when people start brainstorming like category names a little bit too much instead of just focusing on the narrative and letting that be letting that be revealed, letting it reveal itself. To a great extent, I think the category has to be greatly organic. I never sat down and was like sustainable growth, you know, and brainstormed a whole bunch of other names for categories. So I think that my narrative, I knew my narrative intuitively really well, and sustainable growth was just like the term that described clearly what I'm talking about. So it's about a few people that have been doing this well, like, let's reverse engineer what the narrative is behind a few categories that have been buzzing around a lot. Let's start with account based marketing. What's the narrative? So well, the account based marketing. The narrative is, uh, quality is the new game and quantity is the old game. Quality, relationships is the new game. Quantity relationships is the old game. Everybody. Now we're just targeting a few. Prioritization is the new game, right, the old the old game is. I don't know what the opposite of prioritization is. It's it's target accounts. Or, sorry, it's target audience versus target accounts. It's very different. Target audiences described through demographics, psycho graphics. Target accounts are using firm a graphics, not even firm a graphics, it's not even types, it's specifically these companies, right, which is a very different approach, very different approach. Yeah, so a B m. A B M says that you know, three percent of your people are going to outpferform the other nine, seven percent, basically by a multiple, saying that there's this tiny second of people that's actually meant to be in a relationship with you. So the the older ways kind of suggest that, you know, we can just kind of have more mediocre relationships and that's not going to pull down, it's not going to weigh down our ship. Right. So yeah, I mean that's yeah, a B M is a great a great example. You go we can go to demand Gen right leaden demanding and it's funny both both of them have a very different they both come out of a frustration in that marketing B Two B marketing is not working, but both have different and a different way of emphasizing and a different narrative behind them. Right, with a B M it's we're not targeting the right accounts or we're targeting too many accounts. With demand Gen it's we're not getting ahead of people. Right, I mean, Chris Walker, we the M Q is dead. We're just generating bad leads instead of actually helping people desire what we're even offering. Yes, yes, we need to get ahead by generating demand instead of capturing demand. I think it's the drum of demand Gen. Get ahead of it, generate demand before it's just capturing it. Otherwise somebody else will generate it and capture it. If you generate it, you generally capture it, right, and that's kind of the thing. They linked together. Yeah, so, yeah, demand Gen is a great one. We could do um. Gone Right. Goodbye opinions, hello reality. The revenue intelligence is kind of the now. Their narrative is interesting because I've heard, yeah, he was on the show recently and talking about how the narrative came out of. Well, we wanted to be able to sell to UH C R O s and they weren't buying our previous narrative. They weren't buying because we didn't have a category. We were a sale a call center tool instead of a revenue tool. So we changed the category specifically to Target Enterprise Level C R S who weren't interested in our thing. We wanted to make them interested in our things, so we changed, we created every thing around this category called...

Revenue Intelligence so that the C R would pay attention. But it doesn't come out of like a dying need. Okay, so their situation is more of the is more of the other situation that we're talking about where, you know, there's investors and there's, you know, funding and there's a CEO who comes in and CMO and blaw. I just think that they hired Andy Raskin. Did they work with somebody who's talking with asking the whole time building the narrative? So so it just goes to show you they didn't do that in a bubble, you know, isolated, siloed. They went to someone who has been doing this their entire career and he facilitated that process for them and eventually they stuck with something right and it worked. So yeah, it's really it's sometimes. Sometimes it is literally solving your own problem, a massive problem, and creating that new approach. or it's like you already have a new approach to something, but you're just not framing it correctly so people understand you. And that's was their situation. They're like, people don't actually care about the what what we're calling this thing? Like we're calling it something that's absolutely killing US instead of coming up with something original. Essentially it becomes a repositioning play, but you're repositioning it in a new category. You're taking something you already do well and refocusing it, which is why category design ultimately falls under positioning as a, I guess, a marketing term. So we've talked a lot about narrative. We've talked about how it informs the category. Let's talk about how the category informs the community. And I've heard a lot of people say, like you don't really have a category until you have a community, like the evidence of a community shows that you actually have a real category. Yes, yes, and no, it's both. So I it's a complicated answer. Yes, the community is the category. You Design the category to build the community. That is the purpose of designing the category in my mind. Right. So they are connected so tightly, like they're almost one. Right. However, there's there's a reason why I separated those two things into phases, because I was highlighting the differences between that Um. So for me, I I see the category design Um as designing your educational materials and facilitation, community facilitation process. Right, there's this new approach and you're calling it this thing, but do you have the wealth of resources? Do you have those capabilities there for the community to take advantage of so that you can facilitate success at scale? Because the category happens when there's success at scale. To me, right. And so if you're looking at category design is just like a way to own some sort of term, I think you're missing out on a large part of the fun and the revenue. So I suggest always looking at category design as your your facilitation process. How are you going to make things easier for people to act upon and actually do stuff? Right, if we want people to start podcasts, we have to make it easier for them to start podcasts somehow. If we want people to to change from lead gens to demand Gen we have to make it easier for them to make those moves without us right and so the category design is a lot about facilitating community success. Hey, everybody, logan with sweet fish here. If you've been listening to the show for a while, you know we're big proponents of putting out original, organic content on Linkedin, but one thing that's always been a struggle for a team like ours is to easily track the reach of that linkedin content. That's why I was really excited when I heard about shield the other day from a connection on, you guessed it, linked in. Since our team started using shield, I've loved how it's led US easily track and analyze the...

...performance of our linkedin content without having to manually log it ourselves. It automatically creates reports and generates some dashboards that are incredibly useful to see things like what content has been performing the best and what days of the week are we getting the most engagement and our average views pro post. I highly suggest you guys check out this tool if you're putting out content on Linkedin, and if you're not, you should be. It's been a game changer for us if you go to shield APP DOT AI and check out the ten day free trial, you can even use our Promo Code B two B growth to get a discount. Again, that's shield APP DOT AI and that Promo Code is be. The number to be growth all one word. All right, let's get back to the show. As you were talking, it occurred to me like with the narrative you have the hy with the category you have the one, and with the community you have the WHO. It's almost like Simon Sinex, like golden circles or whatever, but you're you're dropping the the how with the WHO. But you have to start with the compelling why. That's the reason why we're all here, the reason why the what is so important, which is the category. It's a new way of thinking, it's a new methodology, it's a new framework or way of doing things. Um, but it's all informed by the why, which is why you have to sometimes you can you run into a compelling like what how to do things, but you don't have a compell you have to figure out why people should care right, which is why the narrative is so important. And if they don't have a reason to care, it's kind of like it just kind of gets lumped in with everything else and people forget about it. But if you come come up with the compelling why and how in a way to approach that why, which is the category, and then the community cares, and that's where a lot of other people start to get around it. Is that about right? That's brilliant, man. That's brilliant. I love matching. You know, uh, why, what, how and who? Why? What? How and who around this. I think that's a beautiful, beautiful comparison. As a beautiful comparison. Down there you go making progress together. So we're around the circle. Let's bring it back. So we have the narrative, we have a compelling why, we have the category, which is the the how we're addressing this why, and now we have a bunch of people that are that are nodding their heads with us and saying, yes, this is the way, you know, which is like your most probably the most common Hashtag I see either on out there. Um Um. So we have a community around this new way of doing things to address the why. How does that come back to inform the Y? Oh, okay, that's that's good. That's good. Okay. So, yeah, basically, what happens is the companies that that design the category just to be number one don't end up building the community. Right, okay, the companies that design a category with the intent of building the community end up building the community and facility hating community success. So what ends up happening in that community building process is that you are seeing your approach, your methodology, playing out at scale and you're engaging and interacting with the people who are applying that methodology right, and you're getting such a good diversity of examples in the community that another level of clarity starts to emerge over time and there becomes another problem. Another problem emerges so that we can get to the next level of success. Right. So the community shows you a bigger problem that's connected to your original problem, but it's the next one on the ladder, right, it's the next logical problem that's going to occur for your community. So I think that the people who get too caught up in just...

...the company, the GT M, the company part of the go to market right, and they neglect that wider, looser community building part of the process, they never end up getting the type of perspective, customer perspective or player perspective. People who are playing this game right. They are generally focused on the numbers from their own customers, are getting new customers, but they're not actually focused on the success stories or the failure stories, which is where those insights emerged from. It's interesting. I'm trying to think of examples of companies making the jump more than once. I'll probably think of some, though I can think of a few that are making the jump now. I mean totally. The A B M communities totally making the jump. Sand Graham is making his move with his next book, trying to evolves as the a B M community has gotten bigger and has identified problems with the approach, you know, because it's not a one size fits all. There are nuances to it. So naturally the community is going to evolve in demand bases taking their narrative, is trying to trying to apply their what they think is the narrative is with a B X, and I think sand Graham's taken a more gt m approach with his right. It's funny to see which one of them actually has the narrative right. That's exactly it. So if if I am correct right, maybe I'm not correct let's just see. Let's just see how it goes. If I'm correct, then some Graham's way is a better way. Unless I don't know something about demand base, where they built this great community and they found all this out to the community. Maybe that's true. Right. But if we're gonna play it out like a science experiment, this is a good test of whether the community reveals a better narrative or whether you can kind of just piece that together without without that, you know, so one live. I don't actually understand the nuances of how sand Graham is doing it under Dan demand basis route. I actually even talked to Sandraham about it and I was like, I'm still I'm still waiting for his book to come out and then I'll probably understand. Demand Base is coming out of an approach of like a B X is taking a B M and working it through the whole life cycle of the account. Like why do we just leave it as a marketing sales thing? Let's work it through as a customer success thing, a retention retention thing, a turn thing, like you should be the whole the whole company should be focused on a b M. Right. I think that's where they're going with it. He just never't read it, but I think from what I've heard from him. UH, John Miller, I agree with that. I agree with to me, to be honest, a B M is shifted two thirds to your current clients. It's not even not that's I'm just coming with a number, but it's hedged towards your current clients. That that's actually what it says, because you're you're expanding an account. The whole concept of a B M is to expand accounts. UH, there's no pre creation, concept of appreciation happening in a B M over time. So I think, I think that they I think they're both right. You know, like GTM, there is this orchestration between marketing and customer success, or marketing, sales and customer success. Right there. There also is this truth that a B M is a full life cycle strategy, right. And so what's beautiful is that these two companies have agreed to no longer compete. Yeah, it's true, they're splitting, splitting the A B M community in their different fields, and we'll see which one becomes the bigger and more profitable one. Or maybe they both, because it's not a zero sum game. Maybe both are wildly successful. Right. I think that's Coom and I hope I hope the boast for bath because they're both doing some cool stuff. Exactly. We're still I'm having a hard time. I can think of a few that have made the jump once. I can't think of a single company that's made the jump multiple times. Now. It takes probably a decade or two to jump more than twice. So I'm I maybe I just haven't been in the market long enough myself, Um, to actually watch it happen. So I'm like, I...

...don't know if adobes how many times adobes had to reinvent themselves, because they've been around at least thirty, forty years now. So I'm trying to think some larger companies that have been around a long time and had to reinvent themselves multiple times. But even category design as a as a thing hasn't been around for more than thirty years exactly. So we're early position in the late seventies right. So it's like it can't it hasn't been that long. Yeah, yeah, I mean I just think you see examples of companies that do reinvent themselves long term. We're definitely having trouble breaking through a single escort in a sense, like we haven't really done that yet. We this goes for countries as well, or empires. We always ride one s curve and we never we never break our own business. Someone else always breaks us because we think number one. There's definitely been companies that go through reinvention multiple times. Dave Ramsey is a good example because he's had big he's had big launches and then dips and then reinventions and then dips. I think he's gone through about three now. Maybe he's probably four or five, because he's he's they've been around longer than what most people think. Remember he went really big in the late two thousand's, around the recession, right. But I don't think he's gotten through like a whole category reinvention. He's kind of been this is a different so he's a different conversation. YEA creating different categories, though, is hard, like creating. Creating one successful category and writing that is difficult enough. Doing me twice is like, man, that's now you're really like, as if it wasn't a Unicorn enough, now you're a double Unicorn. To be a triple Unicorn. That's going for that. He wants to design GTM. Right, you don't have to create it, you just have to design it and have a better have the best narrative around it. But hubspot, you know, let's just look at hubspot. They started with inbound marketing. Is the category. They have this flywheel that was inbound marketing, right. So they had a narrative around inbound marketing about how the world had changed and how outbound was not going to produce a good results for you the way the inbound was. Right. Then, over time they basically layered on complementary services until they until it merited a new category. Right, category are they in now? I'm like looking at their website and I'm like, yeah, is the number one, the number one for scaling, for scaling companies, is their tagline. The number one CRM for scaling companies. So they are trying to be number one. CRN Is the category that they've gone into. So they went from inbound marketing software to CRM and crm with kind of a REV OPS GTM narrative behind it. Right. So yeah, it's it's very interesting to me. which which is the second level category that these companies end up going towards? Off of their initial category, which was more of like based around that problem product fit in the marketplace. But as they expand to the platform, this is one of the new category to call this thing, this platform emerges right. So the number the number one crm for scaling companies. Okay, they're trying to differentiate from all the other crms by saying for scaling. Um, I don't know how much I agree with that. They're pretty big. I mean we use them and I've looked at a lot of crm so I'm like, yeah, I'd agree with that that they'd be the number one for that level. They're definitely not in the small business category and they get destroyed by salesforce and the enterprise. So I'd say they probably do hold the number one position, as far as it's in my mind and I think in other people's minds. No, I think that's true. I think they are...

...definitely number one. Definitely number one, but it is interest. Question came back from inbound marketing because obviously they crms became so helpful and just marketing and sales the whole company pivoted around it, which is why they've added customer success and all that kind of stuff. To it. It's become the central source of truth, we call it, at sweet fish, for information related to all things in your business. Absolutely, absolutely. Yeah. So I think there's an interesting Um game playing out in that, in that market sale that you can see how it started. salesforce started as the sales software, not the marketing inbound, so right, and you kind of see how those things evolved into platforms and you see how they label that afterwards or how how the how the, how they communicate that to the marketplace. Um. So, yeah, I think looking looking at different companies and that trajectory and how they did that, good and bad, is super useful and, you know, I would just I don't think hubspot. I think that they should move heavily into that community building phase. Now, this is the way I'm thinking about it. Um, I think that they did a great job with Narrative and category and now they you know, they acquired this Um publication community. Yeah, but I believe, I believe that this is sort of the problem with trying to be number one, as you end up wanting to acquire the community instead of building, because building it requires you to have humility as and like no, we're all doing this together. It's our narrative, it's not my narrative. So whenever you see someone put number one next to their name, you can they probably won't go all the way with the community stuff. I I have my doubts. You know interesting inside. If you have to say your number one, then community might be a struggle. I'll have to pay attention to that and see if I find it to be true. It kind of makes sense as I've been doing a lot of research into thought leadership. We all know the number rule, number one rule of thought leadership, as you can't call yourself that. If you do, you're not. The idea of companies calling themselves number one is the exact same concept. Or personal branding. People calling themselves number one at something right. Just design the category, build a community and let people call you that if they want. Man, that's powerful. It's been a fantastic talk. If there's anything I didn't ask but I should have asked, what would that be and what is what are some like final thoughts for the audiences? They're considering and wrestling. I'm sure they're wrestling with it as much as we are at sweet fish around narrative, category and community. Any parting thoughts? Yeah, I would just say that there are activities that you can do where you are doing all three of these phases. You're working on all three of them at the same time. So podcasting, do you understand where I'm going with this? There are things you can do where you get insights in all three areas and you can advance in all three areas simultaneously. So there are individual activities for each of these things, but try to identify the core activities that that that nurture the garden in each of these areas and aren't just kind of siloed into one right. I think that's how you can build momentum over time. That is interesting. I am trying to I am wrestling with all three at the same time and it's like tweaks. It's just subtle tweaks to the narrative while you're trying to frame the category, and sometimes you're like, Oh, I think we got the right framing on the category, you're like, oh, but that doesn't that doesn't fit the narrative we wrote last week. Crap, now I have to rewrite it because now the two don't fit. In the meantime, you are continuing to move forward and build community around this thing and you're usually including parts of the community in the conversation as you're testing it out with them, right. So it is it's collaborative process and sin. I mean my hope is that we finally get it all three to be right and then Bam, it clicks and it's beens it creates momentum. Yeah, yeah, I think.

I think that that if, if, if companies sort of come at it from this angle, I think that will have a healthier business environment, uh, in the long term, and I think people will be happier with their work in the long term, because this is really about, you know, purpose and unity, making money through purpose and unity as opposed to competition. Right. So, yeah, that's kind of the philosophy of that wheel. It's interesting. Would you recommend people invite their competitors to be part of the conversation or customers? Well, if you here's the thing. If you've evolved the narrative enough, then you don't really have competitors in your mind. So if you haven't evolved the narrative enough, like, you need you need to get people who already believe in the thing you do. So if these are old competitors, previous competitor is. They no longer are because you've you've evolved. Then, you know, I don't know, trying to get them on board with the thing. It might be difficult, but if you move into another area and you just find players who believe in the same thing and execute on that, you should invite all of those people. You should share the category with them. You should share the category with them and say no, this is not our category, my category, this is ours. Let's move this baby right and let's get some momentum here and grow this market. That is the type of collaboration that that that that moves things. You know, it's part of the narrative. Even thinking about sweet fish as narrative, like the way we approach B twob podcasting is just different than all our competitors and so just by naturally me thinking about that, it actually excludes because don't think the way we think and don't we don't even have the same narrative like the way they approach podcasting. So but there are a few that I'm like, actually, there's probably like two that I'm like, I'd invite them in and honestly, there's enough market shared go around for all of us. So that makes sense because you guys are gonna evolve the narrative anyways later on and split in different directions, like like, like Song Grahaman and this other company. Right. So this is the idea of that, that initial category creation. We want to collaborate because we're moving something massive and inertia is strong. To get this bad boy going, we need collaboration and unity here to get it going fast, and fast enough, right, or else it'll just take forever. So yeah, yeah, man, I I think that the moral of the story on that, which is great, because that's an underlying thing. I'M gonna have to flush out a bunch of documents, a bunch of decks on this, on this cycle, but these are like the underlying truths that the model. You don't see necessarily on the surface on the model, but if you talk about it and dig into it, you start to realize these types of things. Ma'am, I think you need to keep working on this, flushing it out. Yeah, honestly, be a really fun book to read. Now, would read it or listen to it at least so as you continue keep me up to date. And Uh, if you have another breakthrough revelation about this work and we'll have you back on the show. Will be a lot of fun. I know this has been insightful for me and I know will be inscightful for the BDB growth audience. B Two B growth is brought to you by the team at sweet fish media. Here at sweet fish we produce podcasts for some of the most innovative brands in the world and we help them turn those podcasts into micro videos linkedin content, blog posts and more. We're on a mission to produce every leader's favorite show. Want more information? Visit Sweet Fish Media Dot Com.

In-Stream Audio Search

NEW

Search across all episodes within this podcast

Episodes (1753)