B2B Growth: Your Daily B2B Marketing Podcast
B2B Growth: Your Daily B2B Marketing Podcast

Episode 1687 · 3 weeks ago

Marketing Informed Recruitment and Retention with Susan Vitale

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

In this episode, Benji talks to Susan Vitale, Chief Marketing Officer at iCIMS.

With the great resignation and many renegotiating on a personal level what we want from work, recruitment and retention are hot topics across the business landscape currently.

iCIMS recently released the "2022 Workforce Report" and found that job openings were up 86%, hires were up 45% and job applications were down 11%. Finding the talent is difficult, it's scarce.

Today, Susan helps us navigate these uncertain times with a clear path for growth.

Conversations from the front lines and marketing. This is B tob growth. This is b tob growth from Sam Marcus or Austin, Texas. This is Benji and excited to be trying something this week. If you guys, listened to Monday's episode, you know that we are having a little bit of our round table discussion. So welcome Dan and Emily. Dan Joining us from Nashville, Tennessee, Emily joining us from Louisville, Kentucky. What's going on, guys? Hey, Benjie, it's going on. We're podcasting, Bro. What do you think we're doing? You can answer that a million ways and you don't have to just say we're podcasting Bro. All Right, Dan is our director of audience growth, emily is our creative content lead and we're doing a bit of a show and tell deal here. So today I thought we're going to throw it over to Dan. What's Dan thinking about? What's he seen lately? Maybe it's in the news or a post or a book. So Dan, tell us a little bit about what you've been paying attention to. Headline that just hit my inbox this morning and I say I set it aside to talk about Mike and Mike Club and more in depth later, but I'm like, Dang, let's talk about it here, and that is that I heart radio, I heart media, is investing heavily in NFT's and I think the creation of NFT's and purchasing essentially lights to very popular NFT projects to be able to use across podcast and as a podcaster and someone who's kind of been watching this whole nft crypto crazy thing been hyped up in the new so much it really caught my attention and now I'm like, okay, big players have been talking about getting in the NFT game right and we'll talk about what NFT's are in a second if you're unfamiliar with what they are. But I think a lot of us marketers, especially on the digital side, are watching this because we see our favorite marketers like Gary v launched their own nft projects and build these cool things, but it's so kind of complicated and sophisticated, even N ift's. What is that that a lot of us are kind of waiting for it to become a thing, like Oh, we're all interested in it, a lot of people are listening about it, but we're like, but how what are we supposed to do with it, like how do we do that? So I thought it was worth bringing it to a round table. Today's I do have some ideas of what it could be. What I'm waiting for next in the market for it to kind of for me to like really start pushing, pushing heavily into it. But I thought would be worth the conversation. I mean, I think it's an interesting one. Like here's what I would say. For me personally, moderate understanding. Like long term, I totally see how NFT's are useful and once there's mass adoption there's a million ways to use it. Right now it's so early that I'm like, mm, I think that's a big move, you know. So I'm excited to hear you dive into it a little bit more. Emily, what's your knowledge base or thoughts around NFT's? When someone says that, like, what are you thinking? I'm starting a zero. I don't know anything about enoughties,...

...but you've heard the name, so I've heard of them, yes, but I don't know any. Cries glaze over. Yeah, but it's certainly part of the problem. Why? One of the things that's keeping it from being widespread, as you're like nft. What does that stand for? Oh, it stands for non fungible token, which explains a ton. Right. You're like, okay, that it still makes zero sense. Essentially, a nonfungible token is kind of like an asset of a kind that's not fungible, as in it's not currency, it's something else. Right, give an example, and ift is something that's unique. Right, and because of the blockchain technology, this encrypted code, you can verify that the thing is the thing, right, that this one image is the first one or the second one, and nobody can change it, no one can hack it to be like no, we have the original copy of the thing, of the contract, of the piece of art, of this name, or whatever it is, whatever the digital thing is the blockchain technology, kind of like with the Bitcoin, you can say the blockchain verifies that this person is the owner of this one bitcoin. And that's how a cryptocurrency works, is that you can verify the ownership of a single thing, whether it's digital or or physical. Like if a car has a unique number, you can use blockchain to verify the owner of the car rather than making the government like show that they're the title owner. Whatever you said contract and I would say that to me like long term, imagining all the things that you kind of own, emily, are like this is your digital version of saying, see, I own it. So like your house, you literally would have an nft that's like proof of ownership of your home, because we are moving into such a digital society that that's like an easy way of proof and it's much better than, like, obviously, what we currently have, paper stashed somewhere or, you know, something that can easily be hacked. So that's one of the implications. What's interesting when it gets into the marketing space, and where I want to go for the next few minutes with you, Dan is, like, how do you see that fleshing itself out, because people are trying different things, but if you ask most people what they think of of Nfts, they think of board ape, honestly, they think of these really weird images that are, I guess, art to somebody but not to most people, and they don't see the implications quite yet beyond that. Right now and FT's are in a phase where it's kind of like art, tech and hype. Right they're es centrally digital baseball cards, you know, or trading cards, pokemon cards, but they're all digital. So, like the whole Crypto punk thing, it's essentially a bunch of a little piece jpegs or gifts or whatever, and they're all bunch of there's thousands of unique ones and somewhere more rare than others and because of the rarity of them and people want them, they go up and value and people buy and trade them and make money off of these and FT's that's...

...kind of what it is. It's essentially baseball cards, but digital version, because you can contractually know who owns what. What is really interesting is not the art side of it, though there's usually an art component of it that's kind of fun, but the utility side of it. For example, I bought, I've bought one NFT to date and it's a domain name. Right there's nft domain names and I was like, oh well, that I want to I was trying to dabble on the market and be like I want to buy an NFT, but I don't know if I want to buy a jpeg because I don't even I'm not into the baseball card thing. I don't know how to find value and figure out what's going up or going down. I'm going to lose money on it. Let's buy something that has some potential value. I understand domain names. I buy a lot of them and I'm a marketer. I built websites. So I bought DANCHEZ DOC CRYPTO for one time. Fe cost like a hundred bucks or something in Etherium, which is a cryptocurrency, and now I own it and you can verify through the blockchain that I own this nft and it has once dot the dot crypto becomes more of a thing, I can actually use it for different things. It has a utility. What I'm interested in in the marking space is when it has more utility. The few things that I'm looking at our memberships, like let's say we build my club to be an NFT based membership and I release ten a certain tiers of the membership and then people can either resell or trade in different tiers for different things. But there's only ten seats at this level, a hundred seats this level and only tenzero seats at this level. So now there's a value to those and people can buy into to it or trade it or gift it to somebody else. But it's actually a seat at the table. And not only is there a nice, nice little unique piece of art that represents it, but it actually unlocks different things. On locks access two different groups, meetings, content, events, and that starts to become the interesting utility for memberships. All the sudden that thing has value and maybe has resale value. Get that's what Gary v's doing with his his V friends are three year tickets to his vcn and might have implications down the line. It's up to him. He created memberships with massive audience. That one makes sense. Yeah, so it's kind of an interesting idea for community. It's an interesting idea for audience. I'm interested to see. I haven't seen anybody do it with like a book yet, but I'm like, Dang a book. You could make an nft book where you get the digital copy of it, and imagine if a author could control the spread of his book or her book by controlling availability. All of a sudden the resell market actually kicks back money to the author because that they resell the digital rights to the book. The author can get a kick back from every single resell right. If they only release tenzero digital copies of a book, that starts to become interesting because usually once an author only makes a small commission of eve on each sale of it. Businesses could do the same thing. If they have content that they're putting out there. They could limit the amount of content and make it a one off or something, and I think IPAs it's a different way of being gated in a sense where you're thinking about it slightly differently. There's a little bit more...

...intentionality behind how big do I want this audience to be? In a lot of people are fighting for originality in a world where it's like I can get anything anytime, and if t's are like well, here's a unique way to where you can say you're the only one. Everybody likes to belong to a group and if you can limit access to a group, then that group becomes more powerful. It's kind of like, I don't know if you've ever gotten something free that was actually valuable but you didn't really value it because you didn't have to pay for anything. You'd have to pay for it. But then there's things that were valuable to you because you paid for it, even though every other people saw it as trash. But you paid good money for it and you value that thing even though other people would literally pay someone to get rid of it pieces. I don't know. I've been. I've been to like swap meats where you're like buying old treasure chests and different things like that. It's trash to somebody else. For you, you paid money for you value it. So we value things that we invest in. So how do you create community when you have buying at a certain level? So that's kind of interesting to me. I think. Also intellectual property is going to change dramatically. Like imagine if Kelloggs like turn Tony The tiger into an n ft and different versions of him and all of a sudden you can own different parts of Tony and maybe even sculpt the the story of Tony The tiger and made it more valuable that way. There's have been used by businesses to champion, to create figureheads, and I have ideas all the time. They even buy into them, right. Hence pebbles bought like rights to the Flintstones to be able to market fruity pebbles. So characters have been used for a long best serial by the way. More that happening with NFTS. I've been just such an interesting conversation station, I think in my club's context, where we could talk podcasting specific like there's some really interesting crossover I heart, also on the music side, like music is one of the most fascinating ways to think about nft's in the future, of the connection between followers of certain artists and how they can buy into the music. We're like needing to wrap this conversation up, but we're just getting started, and what I like about it is that hopefully we made you stick your toes in the shallow and here, like emily, let's let's just gage real quick. Did we get you interested at all in what NFT's potential are? A little bit, I at least I have it basically. Well, I love your skepticism. That's incredible. Am I going to go res NMP's? Probably not, but it's interesting. Here's another one that might be interesting to you, Emily. What if you can control trademark law a little bit more with nfts? What if you could almost curate your personal brand or the brain of a company by buying pieces of assets through NFT's? So I own a little piece of star wars, but only to Urtd to, but now I have a piece of RTD to and FT's so I can have, I can incorporate some RTD to steff in my own brand, I can almost curate different things, fonts, music, and all of a sudden I can mash up a bunch of different pieces of intellectual property without having to like create these crazy contracts. I could just kind of buying cure rate and all of a sudden my brand is a mix of different brands.

If you think, Gary v does this already, like he uses the jets all the time. He doesn't own the jets but like he wears jet stuff. I mean we kind of already do this with our fashion and what we wear, the things we have on our shelves. But what if you could do it a little bit more officially and incorporate these things without like trademark infringement? I don't know, I think it starts to get interesting when you're borrowing Ip. Fascinating conversation. There's a lot more on that topic that will be paying attention to and I'm sure it's only going to get like more obvious the the need and the use. Early adopters are all over it and clearly like the tide is coming in. So if you liked this conversation, again, this is like a trial week. This is our second episode where we're including a conversation like this before the interviews that we typically have here on B tob growth. Let us know reach out on Linkedin. Dan, Emily and I are all active over there. We would love a DM or just reach out and we're always having conversations with with people over there. So thanks for tune and in. Now let's jump into an interview that I did recently check this out. Today I am joined by Susan vitally. She's the chief marketing officer at ISOM's. Susan, thanks for being with us today. Thank you so much for having me. I'm thrilled to be here. It's great to get to chat. You have a very unique work history in that you've been CMO and been with the same company for seventeen years with ISMs. So you've seen the growth, you've seen the evolution right, but it's fairly uncommon, given the being a CMO, that you've stayed. So I'd love some context from you, Susan, right here off the top, just as to what you've experienced with seventeen years with the same company. Oh Gosh, what happened? Experience of seventeen years? Yet I've been here since two thousand and five and today and for the past ten or twelve years, I've been CMO, but I started off as a marketing coordinator when the company was just thirty five people, one person in marketing. I was straight out of school. I took the Inter regus as practice. Really I had no intentions of joining the company, but here I am seventeen years later and I've been so fortunate. I was given so much autonomy and trust early on. I felt true ownership really early and that brought me here. But ultimately what's kept me here I'm consistent and sharing is just it's the people and the opportunity. I think, to your point, it is fairly unique for a CMO to be with a company for so long, and particularly in technology. I think what what I often see is somebody might swoop in as a new CMO, maybe do a big rebrand or brand campaign of some sort, then the kind of piece out. They don't always live in it, roll around in it. I've been really interested in sticking around for that, going through all the different phases of growth, different types of challenges, and what I've also seen in tech and particular, is that some leaders are really affected and get really fired up at's say, the star up stage, but they hate the larger scale or vice versa.

And I've been really proud of myself for being able to step up to these new challenges as we as we've grown, learned something new every step of the way and keep up and lead us through that consistently changing growth and challenge and excitement. Yeah, as you scale, as you mentioned right and especially, I would say, right now with the great resignation and people just kind of renegotiating on a personal level what they want from work, recruitment and retention have become this vital conversation and so we were talking about that before we jumped on here and recorded. But how specifically and be to be are you seeing this play out, Susan? Yeah, it's near and dear to my heart because you know, I sums is the talent cloud company. We have software to help companies attract and gage higher and advance great talent and I think we have a best in class, World Class Marketing Organization here. But the reality is finding and retaining talent is so important and it's so hard. Every marketing leader that I'm sure is listening today feels that. Every business leader to the left and right of them feels that it's the topic and every board meeting. I have to believe that I would place big money on that. Yet HR and see level executives are still struggling. So we have some really interesting data. We support some of the world biggest brands, companies like target and Amazon, and we have about well, we're going through millions and billions of transactions every year and so we see some really interesting information. So, as an example, the end of two thousand and twenty one job openings were up almost ninety percent, but job applications were down more than ten percent. So this gap is just way too big from a supply and demand perspective. We're seeing in some cases, particularly in me to be that executives are offering comp increases, of course to retain their talent. Makes Sense on average about seven percent this ear but employers are looking for more. Or maybe said another way, if comp isn't the only tool you have or you feel like you can offer seven percent, there are other levers. So we're seeing that employees are saying flexibility, both in terms of the day's worked or the hours worked, flexibility in terms of location and internal growth. Opportunities will keep them with a company. But HR isn't acting like that. So it's really interesting. We saw that in our data. Only about a third of the HR professionals we talked to actually had a plan and providing steps and pathways for growth within a company. Only about a third or planning on investing in internal mobility, but more than eighty percent of them are saying this turnover is having a massive impact on our business in a negative way, so we've got to fix that. There's just way too big of a disconnect there. We just see this really cool opportunity to fix that with our technology, with our solutions. But it's something that's really near and dear to my heart, obviously having been here for so long, that I believe companies can and should do better. Yeah, talk to me for a minute about that disconnect. Why do you think they can,...

...you know, say hey, man, we got to do something about this. Yet this idea of internal mobility is not something on the forefront of where people are actually taking action at this moment as we're having this conversation. Tough, I think in some cases there is maybe confusion on ownership. I see so many similarities to what we see in being to be marketing, where I'm sure many keeps can attest where, especially in something like sess, you can have a leaky bucket and everyone keeps focusing on top of final top of funnel, top of funnel, and you might be churning customers or they're not growing or they're down downsizing or whatever, and yet everyone's still keep talking about like what's your new, you know, search campaign or something like that, like what? No really here? Where these organizations? It's not like they don't care, it's not like they don't want to invest, but they're spending and they're testing in this research that they're spending more of their time, their energy and their money on essentially top of funnel, new recruitment. How do we bring in New People? And chances are they're paying those people more than the people who left. They're spending time and losing productivity. Right the same things we see on the BB side, and where I see an interesting opportunities, like we've seen in more than twenty years of developing this really cool recruiting and can engagement software, is that you can now face it in word, if you think about just a real life example today and employ in your company could apply on the same day for a job internally within that company or externally with another company, and chance are externally. They're getting corded right. They're getting all this love from recruiters on linked in or wherever else. They're made to feel really good, really special about who they are, what they bring to the table. They get lots of updates about where they are in the process. Maybe they get really cool engaging tools, personalized experiences using video, beautiful branding. It get really excited. Internally, if they apply on that same day, they're probably going through like a one thousand nine hundred and ninety five experience where they get this like really lame online portal, they fill out all this information that the company should definitely already know about them because they already work there. Recruiting proactively going after them within that company. They're going after their friend who they saw on Linkedin, and then nobody actually even like follows up with them or makes them feel really good. It's really sterile, and so something just feels wrong when we're making people we don't even know feel so much better than the people we do know. And the reality is, if those internal candidates are having these crappy experience. Chances are they're going to bolt within three months and they won't stay with the company. So there's really a better way to bridge that gap using some of these really modern tools and technologies and, frankly, things we've learned in marketing and applying it to recruiting and more specifically internal recruiting. Okay, so with that in mind, I think when we think of recruitment, oftentimes it's sitting in like an HR function, right, but then now more than ever, we kind of need someone, and you've alluded to this, with that marketing bend or that kind of background to fill the seat. To talk about that a little bit. How Marketing...

...in your mind, plays a role actually, both in recruitment and internally. If you have that marketing mind, it can be a pretty big asset to your company. Right. For sure. I think when when you think about strong talent acquisition or recruiting, we might not know it right away, but it's probably good because they have good marketing. And it doesn't mean the marketing department you know, or you know Fabulousmo but if you think about what would make a good talent acquisition function organization, they probably have a well respected destination employer brand or people want to come to them just like a strong inbound machine. They probably a really solid understanding of metrics and they're able to think about it almost like a demand waterfall. Right of okay, if it takes x number of days to fill these roles, we need to post the roles, you know, and that number of days and so on. It's the same mentality as what we do INB marketing. Then when you think about some of the branding side, those companies want to showcase their culture on their their site and social media channels and company blogs, in video. That's marketing function. To really show that authentic story. Companies really need somebody who has a passion to do this, in a talent to do this and that marketing centric view. They have to be thinking about those metrics that we live and breathe. You know. What are the Click for rates? What are the what's the visitor trafficking conversion? Help me understand what these heat maps mean. How do I frame the value proposition? What does that mean for social campaigns? And then when we think about some of the technologies, they're marketing technologies, marketing automation. It's candidate relationship management as a crm instead of customer relationship management, you to generate a content like tick tock that marketers know so well, and I think what people often forget is that when you're marketing to candidates or employees, they're just people, they're just regular people, and just like we're really good at marketing to regular people in a be tob or potentially be TOC context, same thing applies here. So I think it's such an exciting world to see these two things come together, because they should write like the things we've learned already and be tob. Why are we wasting time trying to reinvent the wheel and recruiting? Like just take those concepts and it's technologies and bring them in for recruiting NHR as well. It seems like a Dobrainer, but obviously with how fast business is moving, you can be really hard to like get the momentum in the flywheel turning to do some of this. So let me put you in a situation. I know you spent seventeen years at Issom, so let's just say we take Susan out of her currency emo role and we drop her somewhere new and you're looking to up the level within that new company right in the way that you recruit. What's like the first thing you would do and what would you pay attention to? With that marketing mindset in mind as well, I think people need to look at the metrics first and foremost, but probably in that same beat is they have to look internally. There's such a missed opportunity where people, I think, are not understanding how easy...

...it could be to move people within an organization in two roles that they haven't considered. It's straight. It's really weird shoally, because those internal candidates have so much to offer. They know the inner workings of the company. They can hit the ground running. So they might not know some of the hard skills that you need to train them on, but they know so much more. So those would be my toes. First, better understand your internal employee population and where there are transferable skills, and the second would be better understanding than metrics and more specifically, you know time to film metrics and volume metrics. Build a funnel for these roles, to know what you need to do to get ahead of it, to build these pipelines. I think there's still so much just in time recruiting and not enough pipelining and really building talent bowls that you can then tap into when the time is right. Let's talk about better understanding internal talent for a second. What are the mechanisms? How how you actually tracking that and thinking throughout? This person may have a seat over here or this could be a potential path for them. There's some change management I think any company needs to go through, whether it's for internal or external, and that is thinking about skills and not experience. And I battle my own good ones where they think they need ten years of XYZ experience, you know, product marketing experience in be to be, you know, NBA, prefer and like for what like, and I'll blow it up. I mean like. It's just a conversation. You know, somebody who just has some of these capabilities could be extremely successful in these roles. And I said, there's definitely change management. That being said, I think there's opportunity with technologies like what Isond's offers. We have some awesome AI capabilities that allow people to better understand skills, mapping to say somebody's good at this, they could be good at that and therefore you should consider them for this role. So I think there's a cool opportunity there. We launched a couple months back something called Opportunity Market Place that essentially allows people to take all of these different capabilities to really deliver that incredible experience that you get to external candidates and let internal candidates know about these new opportunities build out their own skills profiles so that they can be considered for new full time roles, but also for projects and gigs that really just give them more experience to bring to the table for other opportunities and, frankly, keep them out of company because they're stretching their legs a little bit more. Some of it, though, I think, still human, right as it should be, where, for example, like it's important to me. It's a very big part of who I am as a leader at the company to go and tap people on the shoulders say I think you'd really be good at this, and not enough leaders do that. I don't know why, but I think what I've seen is that so few individual contributors or managers or the like recognize what their transferable skills are. They think they're really good at social media or they think they're really good at internal calms. Or something like that, and don't recognize the heart of what they're good and the...

...fifteen other roles that they might be really good at as a result, and I think they need that objective leadership view to say like no, no, you'd be so good at this. Give it a try. You have my faith. That's something that I've done quite a bit of and I take a lot of pride in because I think it's important. Leaders have to be extra intentional now to in the remote environment that we're in, because tapping someone on the shoulder is like harder than ever. So when we're talking about like retention of employees right, and then you throw in the fact that workers can much easier feel disconnected, the chances of them going somewhere else where they like all this transferable skills, just going to go get me more compensation or more flex or more internal opportunity like that, ability of a leader to tap someone on a shoulder virtually becomes extremely vital. Susan, can you give me a couple examples of your time and leadership how you've practically done that? Maybe someone that you saw transferable skill in and they were able to move into a roll that maybe further their career. Yeah, for sure, I think you nailed it and saying intentional and it. It's work. I mean it's something that fills me up, for sure, but it's something you have to literally carved time out of your day to go do, and I don't know if everybody prioritizes that as much as maybe they could, for good reason right or like, I don't I got to go fill up pipeline, like I'll do this another day. But for me comes in a couple ways. One is when I just have regular skip level conversations with my teams in better understanding what is the work that's lighting you up and what is the work that like? If you never had to do again, it would be amazing. And when you literally just ask the question. I think typically a leadership level you know enough about the company and broad speaking, so I'm like, okay, if they like this, they'd probably like this as well. You also have the infect food typically of a new role might be opening up or there might be turnover or something like that, where you could start recommending people for things. The other is in some cases where I just see people have been in a role for frankly too long. I don't think it's healthy to be in one role that isn't changing much for too long, which I know sounds ridiculous given my tenure here, but if I hadn't been allowed to hop around into different projects, own different teams, I would have been out the door. So that actually just happened this week where I had identified somebody in a neighboring team. I'm like, I think she's been here too long. I think we got to steal our and we did that all above board. And then another one that I also really liked was we had a member of my team on the events team in particular, and she's so great, and we were opening a new role within the company for Culture and engagement actually kind of doing the things that we're talking about at scale. What are the different employee engagement things? We're doing town halls, all of that. It's a Maggie's going to be so good at this. She just the core thing she's good at and her heart and that I know she's fired up about, or exactly what she could be doing here and she could build something. And of course we had an open interview process. We consider last candidates for the role, but ultimately Maggie stepped into that role. She's just crushing it and I really do get so much pride in seeing that, not because the role I played, but just that people are now able to see themselves as something bigger, different from maybe,...

...but they pigeon hold themselves as prior so this is a follow up question that I'll just put you on the spot with. But when it comes to cultural engagement at ISMS and how you're creating this type of cohesive environment for employees right, what do you think has been like the biggest catalyst for that? What do you see as a momentum build or something maybe that she implemented or just that you guys have in your structure that is beneficial to retention? Yeah, the culture has always been so important at I, since in the last few years a lot of its shifted, obviously given covid, but for a long time we were very New Jersey centric. It's where our headquarters at is. We had some locations and say London and you know, globally, but for the most part we are very local and we had some remotes that struggled because they weren't so local, and so covid obviously shook all of that up and a million other things, obviously, but if forced us to figure out how to do this in a different way remotely. We then started going back into the office, not required, it was voluntary. But if I had to pick one thing, we instituted something called one Isison's Wednesday, where people could go back five days a week if they wanted, but there were one or two. Started with one Wednesday per month where we said this is the day where, if you're going to go, you should go. Everybody's relatively local as going this day. We have activities planned. It's not a meeting every day. You know, you shouldn't be on zoom all day. It's the quarterly meeting, it's the socials, it's, you know, volunteer opportunities, things like that, which were really fun and that way, when people did go in, they weren't like one of seven people in an entire building and just sitting in front of their computer all day. Magg he's done a phenomenal job with that phenomenal and it's gone over really well because people know what to expect. Yep, Yep. I think you can do this in so many different ways, but implementing something, even talking to a company that just does office hours even though they're fully remote, but they basically just all get on zoom and work together with their little team and stuff like that that you can implement so that people feel connected to each other is going to help with retention more than I think we even realize, as we're still kind of just coming out of covid and remote work is still like the cool thing to talk about and flex work is still this fun thing. But then we're going to swing that pendulum right to a certain extent where it's like okay, also though retention and also though company culture, and so we're asking all those questions right now and no one has it perfectly figured out, but I appreciate you sharing that. Anything else that you would give away before we move on from that? Well, I think one of the challenges is that, I mean especially in a marketing world. I'm sure a lot of the folks listening traveled a lot or used to travel. You there for customer events or speaking engagements or trade shows, and so much of my best connection with my colleagues in marketing or otherwise has after the trade show when you're all getting drinks or you're you know, you're walking, you're going to the airport, of what IFSOS in between moments that we lose, not because it's remote per se, but just we haven't had as much of that kind of downtime, kind of just like shooting the breeze type of opportunity, and that's, frankly, where a lot of my conversations with my team came in. Of Villain okay is still in this.

You get an itchy like when we think about retension, and so we now have to just schedule that differently where it's not as happenstance or serendipitous, but it is again more intentional and hopefully as we start seeing travel and things like that come back more in earnest, those opportunities pop back up, because I feel like I learned more in those, you know, airport delays and layovers and that kind of thing. And then almost any other time was we start to wrap this conversation up, Susan any changes that you did invite our listeners to make in their approach to recruitment and retention. Specifically, start thinking about it like marketing. It's we've been talking about it for a long time, but when you literally break down all these different areas of marketing and more tech, particularly in B Tob. It's crazy when you think about the overlaps, when you think about, you know, email marketing and drip marketing and how that applies to candidate relationship management and marketing automation. When we think about Seo for corporate sites and then optimizing your job postings, you're not paying for Clicks on Third Party job boards. When we think about count profiling and lead scoring, the same things should be happening with your candidates personalization and ABM. You could be doing that with dynamic career site content, these funnel metrics and programmatic literally all of it applies to recruiting as well. So I share that because, a there might be a new career opportunity for those on the phone who might be, you know, also looking for internal mouths like I can really shake things up with the new mindset if I stepped into a talent type role. But I also heard up because marketers should get more involved. I think most marketers put hr request to the bottom of their list because they're worried about revenue and they're doing a lot of other important things without recognizing that. If we get that right, it's a lot smoother sailing for marketing as well, and so I would say try to prioritize and get involved, and maybe seeing it as a new marketing challenge allows us to do that in a way that excites us. Yeah, set up some meetings between marketing and HR maybe, and let them talk to each other and bounce ideas off of each other and watch what springs and maybe you end up sending it a marketer over to a new division. I love that. I think that's great insight and honestly, ever since you've brought this up, how similar they are, I can't get it out of my mind. It's like just lodged in there and I start to see all these similarities. So I think that's wonderful. I'm sorry, it's going to say. Just yesterday we literally acquired a company called candidate I date. It's a marketing automation technology for recruiting. It's like a mercator and before recruiting, feel like this is very real and you just start seeing all these use cases. Thing like yeah, this is brilliant, this is how we should be doing it. Why are we pretending like it's a completely different world? So it's excites fun stuff. I dared out to it, but I think it's so cool like it. Okay, so I did want to mention right here at the end because so we gave away some stats earlier and you talked about some of just reporting that you guys had seen and you recently released a two thousand and twenty two workforce report that people can go check out. Where can people gain acts us to that and take a look and...

...see some of your findings? Yeah, it's on our corporate site. It's I see. I am as a Marys is in Sam isincom. It's under research. It's called the workforce report. There's a ton of other insights and thought leadership there as well, and certainly encourage anyone connect with me on Linkedin or on twitter. On twitter, Susan Underscore Vitally Din, same name. Would love to keep in touch. Love it well. Thank you so much for spending some time with us, Susan. I know our our listeners are going to be really grateful for that, and for those that are listening, if you haven't subscribed yet, to be to be gross. You can do that whatever podcast player you're listening to this on, and you can connect with me on Linkedin as well. Just search Benji Block, Susan vitally, thank you so much for being on B tob growth today. Thank you. This is awesome. If you enjoyed a day show, hit subscribe for more marketing goodness. And if you really enjoyed the day show, take a second to rate and review the podcast on the platform you're listening to it on right now. If you really really enjoyed this episode, share the love by texting you to a friend who would find it insightful. Thanks for listening and thanks for sharing.

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