B2B Growth: Your Daily B2B Marketing Podcast
B2B Growth: Your Daily B2B Marketing Podcast

Episode 1768 · 2 months ago

What Common Marketing Belief Do You Disagree With? | Original Research

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

We spoke with 100 marketing leaders and asked "What’s a commonly held belief in your industry that you passionately disagree with?" In this roundtable discussion Benji, James, and Dan break down the findings.

Discussed in this episode:

  1. Is B2B marketing fundamentally different from B2C?
  2. How to truly foster sales & marketing alignment.
  3. Assumption is the mother of all mistakes in marketing.

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Conversations from the front lines and marketing. This is B two B growth. It's time for another original research episode. James Dan, welcome in. I know a few weeks ago we had talked about trends, specifically the most overrated trends in B two B. Today we're gonna tackle beliefs and the beliefs and B two B marketing that we passionately disagree with. It's gonna get spicy, so spicy. I think of the differences between trends and beliefs like this. So I think beliefs are the way people think of B Two B marketing broadly. So it's a habit of trust around like what works and what doesn't. Examples of this would be like emotional marketing, which will probably talk about today. That's bigger than a medium, but it's something that we should be infusing, emotional marketing into anything we do. Versus trends, you start to get pretty specific. So then we're talking about a B M, email marketing, direct mail, and so that's it's it's exact tactics and I'd say clearly your beliefs impact your strategy and what trends you pay attention to. But in and of themselves beliefs may seem slightly less tactical. So the exact question that we asked a hundred B Two b marketing leaders was this. What's a commonly held belief in your industry that you passionately disagree with? And this question actually is something that the three of us have talked about recently. Dan, you came back with some spicy takes after being gone for a few months and uh, let's talk about that first, because it's been a discussion. You guys were just together in Dallas and and talking about this in the last couple of weeks. So what is a commonly held belief that you passionately disagree with? Dan, you go first here. You CAN'T BE IN B two B marketing long without somebody just hating on B two B for some reason, and it's not...

...usually coming from the B two C side. It's coming from B two B marketers ourselves. Like I hadn't been to the job long when I heard B two B stands for boring. To boring you're like what and honestly, and I've just kind of gone with it for two years, like yeah, we need to be better, we need to be more like B Two c. But honestly, when I think back to even some of my earliest inspiration in marketing, it actually came from B two B, because B two B can accomplish so much more than B two C can, for a lot of different reasons. But let me break down a few reasons why I'm actually starting to shift to be like B Two B is greater than B two c. One of those just being you can spend more time building relationships because you know who the account is, you know who works there, you know it's Susie and adobe, and you can reach out to her. She's probably like a CMO or marketing director, like. You can actually send her a D M and actually have her on a podcast or sent her a gift, like. You can actually afford to do more because you can reach after fewer accounts. You can actually custom tailor at like and actually do better marketing because you have way more data available. You can't do that and B two C, and B two C you can just hope, hope to spray, like pray and spray that it gets to the right people and hope they come to you, and that's good. I like to build demand too. You can do that and B two B and still reach after the specific person. Like you can have so many more plays available, and I love that. B Two B is also a little bit more educational focused. And in B two see they're very much about like the branding and emotions. But that's not necessarily a one up on B two C. all of that plays in to be to be, because we all know we're talking to people, and that's honestly some of the biggest insights we got from this report, saying that we're dealing with people, we can be just as creative to be to see, and I'm like, Amen, let's do it. That's I agree. But B two B also has major advantages that be two se doesn't have. So for that reason,...

...over the last couple of weeks I'm like, Dang, I want the B Two b wagon. I need to get a big old t shirt and a hat that just says B two B and nothing else. And for those who know, they know, and for those who don't didn't matter because they're not part of my crew. I love what you said while we were at the conference last week, Dan. You said you know B two B. It's like it's like really sitting at the adult table and both you and I, Dan had experience. And B two C, and it's freaking hard and you don't have the resources at your disposal oftentimes that you do. And B Two B you're not selling higher ticket deals, so you can invest more. The deals are obviously more complex, they're more buyers involved. It's not just a single decision maker like it typically is in B two C. you've got to figure out how do you frame your message so that it's attractive to the C I, oh, but also to the CFO, because they've got to they've got to be engaged in the decision making process for what you know, a particular product that you're selling. There's complexity to it and as you were explaining it, you're like, you know, it's it's like sitting at the adult table, and that really resonated with me and I think when you when you think about that added complexity, the nuance that comes with B two B, it's an elevated view of B two B as opposed to just looking at it like Oh, it's boring, to Boring Ho Um, b twoc is so much cooler. It's, like you also pointed out, you're like there are a lot of brands and B two C are that are not sexy. Like we look at Tom Shoes and we look at like the best examples. Yeah, like the best examples of B two C, right, like AIRBNB and like all of these like iconic brands that are B two C. But, like you were, like, I just want to like go to the bottom shelf at a grocery store and be like you see this bag of sugar, like that's B two C two, and like that. That's actually the bulk of B two C and it's not all sexy and interesting like the iconic B twoc brands are. But the iconic B two B brands are really sexy too,...

...and we're bringing sexy back, baby, we're bringing sexy back. A lot of the best marketers and B two B came from B to C and it's because they freaking crushed it and B two C. and what did they do? They started teaching other marketers. Are Selling what they learned to other companies and thereby made it up into B two B. and that's why it's the adult tables, because usually they killed it and B to see Bam, and now they're playing at a higher level, which usually has freaking way better margins. You know, they're like, oh wait, I can make more money and B two B, Boom, they're at the level. Not that you know. B Two B companies always charge a lot of money, but usually, you know, it's you're usually dealing with higher, harder to hire margins. Yeah, yeah, so, okay. The question that we had asked all these these hundred marketers. What's a commonly held belief that in your industry you passionately disagree with? So let's jump into some findings, because I think this is so good. B Two B over B two C. Yes, absolutely. What did the hundred marketers say? So this first finding, I would I would sum it up this way. Right, B two B marketers are frustrated with people thinking that B Two b marketing is fundamentally different from B two C marketing. What's interesting about this is right before we re press record, actually think we don't agree with that in some ways, because, James, you actually did a great job right there of outlining how B two B is slightly different from B to c, whether it's the buying committee, there's all sorts of different ways. Even the approach you would take in a B two C situation versus B two B situation. In marketing there are nuances. So but we heard that a lot. That just that frustration. B Two B marketing isn't fundamentally different from B to c. So it's more of an annoyance about this idea that brands are marketing to businesses when the reality is that they're marketing to people, and that I can get behind. So while it may not actually be like we're we're kind of saying two separate things. They're right, but but I get the hard of that and want for more...

...human connection and that being the concern of of a lot of marketers today in the B two B space. So let me read some responses from the survey that reveal how several marketers feel about this B two B verse B Two C situation. We heard, I disagree, that B two B prospects have different expectations from B two C prospects. That's a big one. We could talk about that for a while because we were like, Oh, this is good enough for B two be, but they're not comparing you to other B two B companies. They're just comparing you to all the ways they're being marketed to. Right. So there's a there's a way of thinking there that we need to shift. I think everyone and B Two b really thinks very much that B two B is kind of its own animal, when it's actually very similar. That's kind of what we were saying before. Another response. At the end of the day, B two B marketers are people and they consume information and content and messaging the same way all consumers do. You don't have to communicate to them differently. So you guys are hearing sort of the same thing iterated over and over again. I have probably seven eight of these examples pulled up here. That was probably our our number one key finding from asking this question. What do you guys think about that? That that fundamental frustration of the differences between B two B and B two C, or the lack thereof. I think B two B is better at content marketing. Like how many, how many art blogs, podcasts, Youtube channels are put out there that you take from a company? On B two C, Red Bull, I know people subscribe to it, but it's kind of like, okay, I can think of a few, but it's it's pretty rare. Like I'm I don't subscribe to any B two C. I know people do, but I think B two B kills it. On B Two B marketing, I think the focus and B two B is obviously education. It leans more education. You're you're dealing with decision makers and companies that are trying to hone their craft and get better at their job and accelerate their career and, you know, growing their responsibilities at work and and so naturally, you know, I tend personally just to gravitate toward more helpful content. I still like the occasional, like entertaining episode. I like watching Mr Beasts do something really stupid. That...

...why am I watching this guy like bury himself alive for forty eight hours? I have no clue, but I enjoy that too. But it's not actually helping me get better. And so when I think about like, am I using my time purposefully, I oftentimes feel like I am when I'm consuming content created by a B two B company versus a BBC brand that's just trying to catch as many eyeballs as possible because they have to reach everybody. They have to reach the masses because of the nature of their business model, and so it can be very entertaining. I would argue that it's a hell of a lot harder to create crazy, entertaining content than it is to create super helpful content in a niche uh, and I think you're seeing that and the fact that Mr Beast just keeps leveling up the game. He's spending millions of dollars now on his youtube videos because it's it's harder and harder to you're competing with Netflix, you're competing with all of these media brands that have billions of dollars to invest in their content. Anyway, I'll give up my rant here, but that's what I'm thinking as I as I hear you list of off Benji. Yeah, one of the other responses we heard that I think falls into the same categories, like the tone of Voice of B two B. Content doesn't have to be formal, and I wanted to highlight that one for a second because I so agree and I think we're seeing a pivot, especially in a lot of the companies we would probably all name as the ones that we pay most attention to in the B two B space, how they interact on Linkedin, the type of social content they push out. There's this ability to like also infuse humor. You're still looked at as you have people in your organization that reviewed as thought leaders and they're still, you know, giving that educational content. But there was this like buttoned up feeling that I got when I first came into B two B, where it was like, Oh, you gotta have everything in order and you better like talk in a certain way and like that's, honestly, what got the rep for me to be of like being stiff or being boring in the first place, and we've come a...

...long way from that. So I think we're highlighting like that transformation that's taken place. That's been awesome to see. Yeah, and when you think about that, Benji right, it makes sense that there would be a reticence, hesitancy to be more open in your communication, to to let your hair down a bit, because the stakes are higher. Right, you're selling a six figure deal to a CT O, that matters more than when you're selling a six dollar pair of socks and you're and you're the stance brand, like they can be a lot more loose with what they're doing because the stakes are lower. So it makes sense how B two B marketers got there. The stakes are much higher, the deal sizes are bigger, you've got to make sure you don't piss off seventeen people instead of just making sure that you know the thirty eight year old dad who's buying the pair of socks isn't you know, likes what you're saying. You now got to a piece more people. So I get how it's gotten there. I'm glad to see the pendulum swinging back to say no, no, no, wait a minute, these are still humans and and they want to be marketed to like they're being marketed to in other parts of their life. We don't need to be so stiff and rigid, and I think you're seeing that from a lot of the top brands and B Two b today. One of my early inspirations about over ten years ago was mail chip. Remember, if you remember, like mail chip actually used to be more fun than it is now. It's become way more formal, but man, back in it was fun. It had a freaking huge monkey on the website right, and now it's just reduced to the logo. But like they had these fun guides. They were designed. They're putting out coloring books with mail chimps in it, and it was just the email marketing software. All the rest of them were boring. There is one place in the UI where it's like you could measure, like how big your email was and if it got too big, like a monkey's arm with the finger was kind of stretching, stretching, stretch, and then it would break and like blood out, like too far, too fun. I'm like it's that kind of stuff and it B two B tool or yeah, it selling. They're selling B two B and being used by marketers that like it can be fun, because we're all people having fun or doing work. I think you can add...

...some delight into it. Now I'm seeing stuff like that all the time, like Asana has like a little unicorn shoot out of the screen. Ever you complete a task and you're like, why not have the Unicorn shoot out of the screen, like it's a part of product, could be part of marketing, and I'm glad that mail SHIMP's had a heavy influence on this kind of stuff. And now here we are, like twelve years later, and sweet fish is trying to be like the opinion epitome of this too, since we're named after candy. Essentially, we're trying. We're over here trying B two B growth. Will be right back, Dan is. You looked over these findings. What else really stood out to you, man? So something a lot of marketers are still talking about, and this has been an ongoing conversation for years now, is around sales and marketing alignment, right, and that kind of makes sense to me why people are still talking about it. Like sales not getting marketing, marketing not getting sales, there being a misunderstanding of WHO's who's risk possible, for what? Is Marketing's job just to serve sales with leads? Is Marketing job over once the lead goes to sales? Like all these different things, and it makes sense because there's different skill sets at play, different ways of viewing the world. What is true, what is good, what is what is beautiful? Right, they just have a different perception of reality, but at the same time they have to learn to work together to accomplish the end objective of increasing revenue. So I've always thought about it of like marketing doing a handoff but still serving it all the way through, and a lot of marketers are feeling similarly. Like the lead, a lot a lot of people mentioned, like marketing isn't done once the lead comes in the door. The one set to sales specifically, but there's still a lot of misconception around what the relationships should look like. So conversations are still being had and it's still a big misconception in B two B. It's interesting because I'm I think, with all the work we've done to like unify sales and marketing and like have this revenue umbrella and and as I talk on B...

...two B growth, interview episodes with those outside of sweet fish and just like what are you doing to unify because it's such a hot bun issue, like on Linkedin, there's all like there's a constant conversation around it. I think we're starting to see a way forward and a lot of that does come down to just like what are recurring conversations we can have in questions we can be asking of each of those kind of the sales function and the marketing function. That just calls us back, like you said, Dan, two revenue, but calls us back into some some unifying like this is how these handoffs worker, this is and like the more that that just becomes a well oiled machine. Yeah, I mean it's clearly better for the organization. It's funny that we've ever thought of sales and marketing so opposed to each other or so so at friction with each other, because if you don't have both, you you're kind of screwed. So I think that's a that's a big time one. Yeah, anything you want to add to that, James, because the revenue team is a bit big for us. Yeah, yeah, I think unifying our sales and marketing team to the revenue umbrella has has been huge, I think partly because I am a marketing driven CEO. So having hosted B two B growth for a good jillion episodes getting the company off the ground and like just trying to talk to as many B two B marketers as I can, and naturally I think I lean more towards understanding the value of marketing and so in the way we have set up our budgets, like we have a larger marketing team than we do a sales team. So we have a very different vibe here at sweet fish and and I think a much deeper respect for marketing at sweet fish than a lot of other organs do. But having having the sales and marketing team, we need to do a better job of this, honestly. But creating more I'm not going to say the word synergy here, creating more experiences where both are, you know, our podcast strategists are what we call our sales team and the folks on our marketing team are interacting and talking together. Like one of the rocks that we had, our quarterly rocks...

...for Emily on our marketing team was to have several conversations with our sales team, with our account management team and with our producers are, you know, client facing folks on the on the ground that are working on shows day to day. We're having her talk to them to figure out, like, what are some insights we can pull from what you're actually experiencing? Our sales team, like what what are you experiencing? What are the conversations that you're having on the ground that we can learn from? UH, in marketing, we we just weren't that that wasn't happening naturally and so we made it a rock to try to break down that barrier and have some more of that free flowing conversation. We're going to try to structure our team meetings. I've been working with Katill on our team to get something scheduled so that we can have both teams on a call for an hour every other week talking through some of the challenges that we're both facing, because there's just a lot more opportunities, whenever we create that shared space, to be able to talk through the issues together, as opposed to fighting them in silos like like I think most organizations do. One of the things, Benji, that I wanted to get to on this was, you know, we're talking through these insights and what we found from this research, but you know, one of the most helpful parts of these episodes, I think, is when we get to the actual recommendations and like what do we think brands should be doing as a result of kind of what we're uncovering in this research? And one of the things that struck me was it feels a little bit Buzzworthy, but I think we've gotta if you're not already doing this, if you're not a progressive brand that's kind of on on the edge, and there's a lot of brands that I think are already doing this, but if you're not, you need to start approaching your marketing uh in an emotional and human centered way. I think human centered. You know, our friends at bomb bomb wrote a book human centered communication, and you hear that talked about a lot, but I think the more we can approach marketing and this human centered, more emotional way, I think the better...

...your marketing is going to resonate with your buyers. And so in question ten of this survey, most marketers claimed that being human is the most underrated marketing tactic. So when we asked about, you know, what's the most underrated marketing tactic, they said being human was that tactic, which thought was really interesting. And then in question for marketers are interested, we found out that marketers are interested in human behavior and psychology. So marketing to decision makers in business is not that different from marketing to consumers. There are actually a few different ways that we've tried to do this as sweet fish, to bring more humanity by understanding psychology and understanding these different things, like how do we bring that humanity into what we're doing? And so, obviously podcasting. You know, premise development in in the podcasting process allows you to develop a hook that's actually gonna make somebody want to listen to your show. There it's not just another interview based show. There's a compelling hook. Your P O v is injected into that that premise and somebody's gonna look and go, uh, that's interesting, like they're on a journey to do this or that's like my favorite, you know, show that's outside of B Two b land, like what are they doing to to mimic that style of that show over here in this show about marketing? So premise development is a is a huge way to inject more of that humanity, just being more thoughtful about how we come up with the hooks for for our shows. Community groups or something we've tried to do with marketing squads or getting people into smaller groups so that they can actually connect with one another. You've got folks like pavilion uh that do a fantastic job of facilitating community. Peak community is another one. D G MG, which is now exit five, a lot of folks that are trying to build community. I think it taps into that. That's it's a more human centered way to do marketing. Um, we tried to take it to the next level by putting people into more intimate small groups. And then social media. The...

...way we do social is different. We're posting uh comic strips as UH carousels on Linkedin. Um, we're publishing kids books and talking about them on social dance got a kid's book another his second Kid's book is coming out in the next few months. And so the way we do social it's it's gifts, but it's also super helpful videos. It's both things. I don't think pigeonholing in into one like it's gotta be one type. It can only be helpful. I think the reason I'm resonating with so much of our fine labs content now is because Todd Klasser is taking the points of the really smart points of view of Chris Walker, their CEO, and he's doing funny series like infusing those p O v s into a fresh way of doing B Two b social content. And then the email. You know, we we really like using videos. We use bomb bomb uh here at sweet ish to send video email to inject more of that humanity when you can see somebody's face communicating messages, just opposed to you know, written text. I've seen the value of that, especially as we've done more video on Linkedin. Even just going to podcast movement. Three or four months after starting to go heavier with linkedin video, you start to see that like Oh, people actually like recognize me at this conference now because they've been seeing my face in their linkedin feed for three or four months. It's it's pretty wild to actually experience it. But when I think about seeing, you know, Alex for Mosey or Gary V, when I like when I the first time I saw Gary V in real life, it just it felt like this out of like out of world experience. It was like, Oh my God, this is a real guy, and I would have thought that about, you know, Jennifer Aniston back in the days when friends was was big on TV. It's like you think of these folks that are now business content creators as celebrities like we do one of the stars of friends, because we're now consuming content in our feed, not on the...

...couch in front of a TV like when I did when I was growing up, and we now get to be the star of the show. If we have a thoughtful content strategy that allows us to do what we're doing here today right creating long form content. That thing gets chopped up into into short form content. It's humanizing us. It's not just me, it's Dan, it's Benji, it's a variety of folks on our team that are putting out this kind of content and it's helping the brand overall. Yep, I think what's interesting on that one too, and Dan, I wanted to commend you for something, is when you think of that like emotional, human centered way of doing marketing and just connecting with people, like your use of bomb bomb was really strategic for me. Well, you're like, okay, it's one thing if I post like, let's say, a micro video or if I have an opinion and now people see my p O v on Linkedin. It's another thing if someone like comments on that and I respond with like a video. You know what I mean? Like because now it's okay, I know this person exists and they're creating content, this person actually cares about me and there's a back and forth that's happening in a different way. When did that kind of click for you? I mean, I started doing it just because it was easier, because you want to leave long responses, but typing it all out, I'm not. I'm already not like the greatest like writer. I'm okay writing marketing copy, but just giving long explanations and things. I'm like, I'm just gonna record a quick video and shoot it over, and what I found is that it would blow people's minds are like, oh my gosh, you took the time to make this for me and you're like, I'm lazy. And of course you can communicate way more in video too. So it's like it felt like it packed way more punched than I expected it to, and once I started getting a feeling of like how much it impacted people, I'm like this is a freaking secret weapon and I still do it and it still blows people's minds. Now I think more people are catching on because I'm getting more video responses back in response to my videos, but it still works remarkably well. Yeah, there's something to be said for just the power of video like across the board, because you could think that you've even on your website, you've answered all the questions that someone might have and now they...

...can go and they can read about it. But even just infusing somebody's face on the website to give an answer to a question, it's such a personal touch that can it just change the way that you do marketing and it puts a face to everything, which again like the power of that in good communication and like it's just I don't sleep on it. Like anywhere you can use video I would be thinking about using video because it's it's such a good personal touch. Dan, when you're thinking of recommendations based on what we found off this question. What what would be sort of the thing you'd be thinking about here, I mean other than going to video, and I'm specifically thinking about how to make B two B growth more video oriented in the future. But switching from audio production environmental videos a little bit of a lift. So we're still trying to figure that out. So, if I were a company, I'm trying to sneak video into everything, into the landing page, into the thank you page and to the emails, into text messages, like the more place I can put my face or the face of my teammates the better. Hence, on not even on our own website, like we have like a bunch of our teammates pictures instead of stock photos everywhere. It just makes it more human, right, writing in friendly ways and I always when I write copy, I try to write to a specific individual that would be in that market, right. So that's an easy way to make things more human. And just thinking through if you were experiencing this, what would you want to see? What would you want to read? How would you want to be treated in this marketing sequence, in this email, in this social post, be the type of marketer that you would want being market marketed to you, right, or do the type marketing you'd want pushed on you? Um, and I think it just goes along way. Yeah, I think for for me, like this is a such a good question to go. Where are we assuming things? Whenever you think of beliefs, like just to call us back to the beginning, like what commonly help belief in your industry you passionately disagree with? To me, it's like, what are the beliefs that I hold right now that I don't even realize are running things like assumptions being the...

...mother of mistakes, like this is something I think doesn't work. This is something I see other people doing and like I don't ask questions about them, just like I would never do that, instead of like being curious, and the best marketers to me are curious, and so like, where are there things that I'm like why do they do it that way, instead of just like from from the other side watching it, like who can I ask does that work? What did you learn from trying that? And even on the video side there's people that are ahead of us in the game right, like who should we be talking to that could lead us to being better in our strategy around video or any other things we've talked about today? To me, it's just like checking myself and going, okay, what are those internal beliefs that, as a marketer, I've been assuming certain things that that I could change my mind on, and as I do that, I think like it just makes us better at what we do. Anything else you guys want to throw in? Is there a belief that maybe you're challenged today to like change or shift because of this conversation? I'd love to just hear what you guys have to say before we kind of wrap this. James, anything for you? Yeah, I don't know that there's anything necessarily from this. That has been like a massive, you know, unlock for me. But I think one of our core beliefs and and as we've gone through like Pov Development for ourselves and we've asked ourselves this question and we've ultimately landed on this idea of affinity over awareness. I think so much of what we found here, particularly with like the human centered, like marketers now know like being human centered and like being more human and in your marketing is actually a very underrated tactic and it's it's something that that should be considered. I think that that reinforces the belief that we've been talking about a lot, which is affinity matters a lot more than awareness. Like, yes, you want to go get more awareness, but you want to go get more awareness for something that people are actually going to and want to engage with, and I think just going and chasing...

...more awareness, which we see a lot of B two B brands doing, without first having something of substance that people actually want to consume, you're just wasting a whole lot of dollars. And so I think first you've got to focus on affinity and then you focus on going and finding you know, a lot even as we've we've we've talked about some growth tactics for B to be growth. It's like we wanted to get into a rhythm with this new short show format and doing some other things that we want to do with the episodes of B two B growth. We want to get that in place first so that when we start using some programmatic advertising and we start doing some show swaps to get B to be growth in front of a larger audience. We want people to come back to be to be growth and go man, this is this is a refreshingly different show. This isn't just another interview marketing show like every other interview based marketing show that I listened to. It's actually different where we're hearing people, you know, we're hearing this particular team and sweet fish talk about their points of view and their thoughts and and they still mix in, you know, some some conversations with outside people, but they do it in a refreshingly different way, and so that's that's what I mean by we have to focus on affinity first, then we go out and get awareness. That's good. Well, I love having these types of conversations with you guys. Original research has been so helpful for us to just see, man, what do a hundred B Two b marketing leaders think on on something like this, and how often do we even address like, where are the commonly held beliefs in the industry? That I'm like out on? Like, I love hearing people's responses. And if you haven't listened to the five previous episodes before this one, we go back in the feed. You can find those now and and take take a listen. We're always trying to help fuel your growth and your innovation. So if you haven't yet followed the PODCAST, be sure to do that on whatever your favorite podcast platform is, and then you can connect with Dan James and myself over on Linkedin. We're talking about marketing and...

...business all the time and we'd love to chat with you. Keep doing work that matters. We'll be back real soon with another episode. We're always excited to have conversations with leaders on the front lines of marketing. If there's a marketing director or a chief marketing officer that you think we need to have on the show, reach out email me, Benji dot block at Sweet Fish Media Dot Com. I look forward to hearing from you.

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