Is Your Marketing Toxic? Find Out if It's Hurting People & Your Bottom Line w/Ethan Beute

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

In this episode, Dan Sanchez talks with Ethan Beute who is the Chief Evangelist at BombBomb about the launch of his new book, Human Centered Communication.

Learn why digital pollution is hurting others and your bottom line and how to evaluate your campaigns.

Buy a copy of his book here.

Yeah, welcome back to be, to be growth. I'mdan Sanchez with sweet fish media and I'm here with Ethan Beauty, who is thechief evangelist at bom bom and a longtime guest on BTB growth. So Ethan,welcome back to the show, Thank you so much. It's been a privilege to beengaged with you and the other folks who have hosted and co hosted the showover the years. Um and I'm happy to be back today. We're here to talk aboutheathens new book they just co authored with Stephen personally, they justauthored the book Human centered Communication, a business case againstdigital pollution and I've been hearing about this book coming out for a longtime. I finally just had a time to look over just before this interview and itis a fantastic premise. You think, can you tell us a little bit about thepremise behind the book and digital pollution itself and then I have lotsof interesting questions and stories to share afterwards. Awesome. So I'llstart with digital pollution and then move a little bit into human centercommunication, then get into the super fun part. So digital pollution, I feellike we've given a name to something that we've all suffered with for a long,long time in a variety of different ways. I think we would all recognizedifferent examples that we've experienced and I think as we get intothe conversation, some of those will be obviously illuminated, but when youthink digital pollution, think about anything that's confusing, frustrating,annoying, distracting, perhaps even dangerous. So at one really far end ofthe examples is malware, phishing attacks, data breaches, ransomware. Allthese other things like very malicious and intentional on the far other end isjust kind of this sometimes funny, silly innocent type stuff where youpick up your phone and there are 85 text messages and you're like, hey whatthe heck just happened and you realize you're now in a group message thatreally didn't need to be a group message or maybe you didn't need to bein it. And so like you got to figure out what's going on there, you know,not intentional, not harmful but still distracting and kind of annoying. Oranother one is when you receive or you've actually sent a an autocorrected or mistyped message. That creates some confusion sometimes it'seven embarrassing. So that's like that's on the other end, it's justthose things just happen and we can be maybe a little bit more careful, butThe bulk of the conversation, I think especially in the context of B2B growthB two B sales, B two B marketing and really across the entire customerexperience is what I call consequential pollution and it's you're not seekingto do harm as you are on the intentional end. But something aboutyour approach to creating and delivering value is frustrating,confusing, annoying, distracting or even threatening to somebody else andthey deem it pollution. So that's a key characteristic digital pollution issubjective and contextual, you don't get to decide what's pollution, therecipient or the person experiencing what you're presenting gets to decidefor themselves in the moment. One quick thing on that is you and I dan couldget the exact same message from the exact same source in the exact samechannel. Let's just pretend it's email to keep it simple um with the exactsame offer for the exact same reason. There there's several things that youand I shared and that might land us on the same list of the same message atthe same time. I might get and say oh my gosh, this is so helpful, I'm soglad I got this today, you might get and go not again unsubscribe abuse,whatever. However, if you had received that same message a month earlier,perhaps before you had made a buying decision or before you understoodsomething differently, you might have been happy to receive it or a monthlater, that situation might change. So it's highly contextual and highlysubjective. So that's pollution. Any thoughts or observations yourself withregard to that idea. I mean I think the...

...internet has made it pretty obviouslike what pollution is. I mean even when you first think about it, whenpeople even think about advertising in general, you think of like MadisonAvenue which just so many lights and advertisements all over the place,you're just like oh my gosh! I mean that one is so over the top that it'sactually a landmark now, but in general, I feel like the internet is kind oflike that. We're just, there's so many irrelevant messages and spam floatingaround our systems that it just becomes obnoxious to the point where we becomebanner blind because we can't even see it anymore. One of things I did it likeas soon as I had submitted the manuscript, I went on an internal tourat bom bom, the company I work in um and went team by team and justfacilitated brief conversations about these ideas to help create someunderstanding awareness to develop them even further. And one of my mostobvious takeaways is something you just observed which is that we've become sodesensitized to it. We just accept as normal some of the stuff that we haveto do, whether it's just a habit of swipe, delete swipe, delete swipe,delete on our phones while we have a minute so that when we actually dointend to spend time in our inbox, it's on things that we've already filteredor whether it's just accepted that I need to be silence that friend or blockthat person. So I don't see any more of that junk anymore. And so, and thisgoes very big. We just saw the instagram facebook Internaldocumentation thing come out that they know that what's going on in social isinsanely damaging to a generation of young women um that fits in thisconversation to outside the bounds a little bit of B2B growth but um stillpart of the digital pollution conversation. And so we've become blindto it because it's so pervasive, it's funny because as a user it's like as Iwas reading the book, I'm like it's so obvious like of course like of coursethe more narrow the segmentation of course the more personalized it is, themore human it is you're kind of like like of course that's going to work butthen I can think back to my time as a marketer and I'm like I've clearly notalways done this and I think any marketer that's been marketing for anylength of time has a list of like that would be dripping red like with all thesins we've committed of digital pollution like over over the lastdecades I know if I can share like one of my most embarrassing ones um that Iwas thinking about as I was reading this book and I'm like that was me umwas a time I was working for a christian university, I was trying togrow instagram followership and we had been running ads and all that kind ofstuff. You could say that some of that might have been digital pollutionprobably less so than other places though, but I had a friend that washaving great success with an automated program right, fully automated kind oflike a follow one follow type of a system and it would go and actually,automatically, like a lot of different posts We had great engagement with ourInstagram profile, but I was like, you know, we really want to get this upabove 10,000 because then we can have the swipe and the stories and havelinks in there and all kinds of stuff. Let's get it over 10,000. Let's usesome automation. Let's increase engagement 100 times because it's goingto be commenting and liking other people's posts for us automatically. Sowe run this system, it's running for a few weeks and I'm like, okay,engagement's going up, reaches going up, followership is going up all systems golittle did I know like people were paying attention to what that page wascommenting on and liking on. And even though I had set really tightparameters, it started liking things that I would never want associated withthe college and the followers that were engaged noticed, they were like, whatis this? Did you like this questionable photo was like, no, it was so bad. Butit was like one of those things where you think just because you can increaseit with automation just because you can scale something to the n degree thatit's going to work. But oftentimes taking that kind of robotic approachjust isn't isn't going to get you to...

...where you thought you were going to go,it isn't actually going to build the relationships you were hoping it wouldbuild and it kind of alienates some of the people that you actually did havegenuine relationships with because guess what? They can feel it. So thatwas like probably my worst story of like taking it too far and theconsequence of it, of course I shut it down after that, never went back tothat kind of automated social game again, but it was certainly painful. Sothe interesting thing that you just shared there is an awareness of thecounter impact or kind of like the negative metrics or the failure rate ofwhat you were doing and by that, I mean you fortunately had built a brand andbuilt a following that cared enough to let you know that they were confused atbest and displeased at worst, but that you were paying attention, I think somuch of this activity were so focused on the first number you started withwas like let's get to this number and do whatever it takes to get there andoh by the way, let's, you know, we're gonna, because it's less tangible. It'sless measurable to know what the sentiment is. Either of the people onthe receiving end or in this case, you know, people already accepted into yourcommunity, It's harder to understand that sentiment. So fortunately peopleto raise their hand, but you know, if we want to high five about achieving a3% conversion rate up from 2.4% 25% growth there and we can be like, we'resuperstars were amazing. I can't believe we grew this by 25% so oftenwhat we do in that scenario is ignore the other 97% and some of what's goingon in that population and some of that is negative word of mouth, it isdistancing from you. It's blocking deleting if there, if it's an email andthey're using a tool like superhuman, they can block not just you but yourentire domain. So none of the sales people ever to take that role or any ofthe marketers ever to take that role in the future can never reach you again.And I don't think we're honest enough about some of the counter impacts ofwhat we're doing. The failure metrics is another way to say it. And so atleast you we're working in a context where people were kind enough to letyou know. Yeah, I was fortunate. I'm sure there's been many times where I'veworked in context where nobody let me know and then I just had spinach in myteeth right? Maybe no one noticed because it just wasn't, they weren'treal people. It's interesting to think about human center communication. Itmakes me wonder Ethan if there are like certain channels or certain broadpractices that are like clearly just these, these things should never bedone or if there are channels that are always always good. Can you think ofcertain tactics channels maybe like broad broad strategies that are on theno list or on the yes list for human center communication. Um, you know thefun thing is this is not so black and white. What we're looking to do here isnot prescribe your behavior for the next 36-48 months based on what we'velearned from the past and what we're forecasting for the future. We'rereally applying the principles of human center design, which is a 30 or 40 yearold practice to our daily digital virtual and online communication forthe benefit, not just of the, of the people you're reaching out to ourengaging with but for everyone and for your long term relationships,reputation and revenue and I think that reputation pieces key and you just tolda nice story about it And so you know, I don't know that I would offeranything in the context of your question that would be really new orsurprising. I mean obviously purchase lists and taking every single emailaddress you can find and putting it into your sales cadence tool orwhatever and just like you know, shooting things at them until theyfinally reply or the unsubscribe or mark you for abuse. Obviously we can,you know, laugh all day about the...

...foolish approach of you know makinglinkedin connection requests under some premise or with no, you know, no notewith it at all And then immediately dumping the copy paste stuff about howthe funny ones obviously have bad variable data in them, you know, like Iknow how much time in an effort you put into building good conversations and agood personal reputation on linkedin and I do that probably not asaggressively or as well as you do, but in any case, you know, I built a pagefor the customer experience podcast, I built a page for this book, Humancentered communication. And so sometimes those variables will getplugged into some of the outreach that I'm getting on linked in or even byemails after Lincoln gets scraped. I mean obviously all that stuff wherewe're pretending this is a key, I guess this is a key idea and then I'll giveit back to you on this, whether it's a I or automation or personalization,that's really just a form of automation um where you're slugging things in, youknow, scraping and plugging, I think where we go awry and we're definitelynot operating in a human centered way because you can automate things in away that is in service of other human beings and they will appreciate, right,like I don't ever want to talk to somebody at amazon and I love theproducts that they refer to me at least I like never mind seeing them becausetheir hit rate on it is decent, like, oh I don't mean that now, but at leastit's a you know, it's legit. That's a pretty good offering. So this can allbe done well. But a key idea is don't let things act as if and don't setthings up to act as if they are something that they are not. Uh And by that I mean I have writtenemails that say, hey, you know, I'm sending this email to a couple 1000people and you're one of them right? Stop pretending like this is made justfor you now. There's a difference between what I just offered and youknow, going into a crm are similar and saying if this is true, if that's true,if this number is between this range and that number is between that rangeand these two things are false as soon as those things all line up send thismessage that is actually going to be super helpful for somebody. Probablyright. And so there are ways to do this well and there are ways to do it poorlybut don't let things act or be presented as if there's something thatthey are not because a R. Bs detectors are very strong and they get strongerall the time when something new happens. Maybe were fooled one or two more timeslike because it's new but humans are very adept at this and so we learnedvery quickly and then to it just sets the whole relationship off on the wrongfoot. I mean you're you're mischaracterizing or misleading out ofthe gate and I don't offer that in a moral, with a moral sensibility.Obviously we could undertake that from it. Just being the right thing to do isto be more forthright and straightforward with people. But assoon as people discover that gap, you're immediately killing the onething that leads to a yes, which is trust. Hey, everybody Logan with sweetfish here. If you've been listening to the show for a while, you know, we'rebig proponents of putting out original organic content on linked in. But onething that's always been a struggle for a team like ours is to easily track thereach of that linked in content. That's why I was really excited when I heardabout shield the other day from a connection on, you guessed it linked in.Since our team started using shield, I've loved how it's led us easily trackand analyze the performance of our linkedin content without having tomanually log it ourselves. It automatically creates reports andgenerate some dashboards that are incredibly useful to see things likewhat contents been performing the best and what days of the week are wegetting the most engagement and our average views proposed. I'd highlysuggest you guys check out this tool if you're putting out content on linked inand if you're not, you should be, it's been a game changer for us. If you goto shield app dot ai and check out the...

...10 day free trial. You can even use ourpromo code B two B growth to get a 25% discount again. That's shield app dotAi. And that promo code is B. The number to be growth all one word. Allright. Let's get back to the show. Hey, that's tough. As you were talking. Icould think of a lot of different situations around my gosh, I'm stilldoing this and I'm still doing that and it's not, it's not, it is disingenuous.I will just call it out for what it is in places where I still consult or helpwith. Not a sweet fish but sweet fish is like very hands on, very personable.Everything's done almost manually. I can think of a situation where I send atext message after someone requests information that of course it's verytriggered to be like only come at a certain amount of certain time whensomeone could actually be sending it. And it's like, hey saw that you werejust requested information. What was interesting to you about the programright? And it's made to look like it came from a human naturally. I'm theone who wrote it and it's been sent thousands of times from other salesreps and but I'm like well is it going too far to make it look like therepresentative even though like if I had enough time and I slowed down thelead rate per rep. They probably this is exactly what I would have them sendover and over again. So it gets hard to just like figure out where I've evensent the reverse where someone might be ghosting me or ghosting a rep. So Ihave a little script, it's not even automated. I have them manually sendout something that looks like a robot just so they respond and I know whetherthey want to follow up or not. I mean maybe I could know that hey theyhaven't responded so maybe I should stop calling them. But there'scertainly been times where I'm like reply yes, reply yes or no. Text textmessage rates may apply, you know, to make it look like it came out of anautomated system just to get them to reply. So it's those kinds of thingsthat I'm still trying to navigate internally. How do you use yourframework to tell? Like whether whether or not you've kind of crossed the edge.Okay, so that leads me to acquit I'll do this quickly. It is I'm going to usea model from a design firm called video and I'm just going to describe forpeople human centered design. So I D. O. Is a design firm that's used humancentered design principles in this model I'm about to describe to designthe first apple mouse decades ago, more recently, a water system in Africa andthey've designed hundreds if not thousands of products services systemsand processes using this framework and it's very simple. It's threeoverlapping circles. Think of them maybe in a triangle shape with two onthe bottom one on the top and they all equally overlap so they all meet in themiddle and then their spots where the two of the circles overlap. The threecircles are these number one in desirability and the needs of humans.Like what do the people involved in this or on the receiving end of this orwho are going to be affected by this? What do they need and want? Then othercircle adjacent to it is feasibility. What does technology allow us to do?And then the third circle kind of on top overlapping those two and meetingin the middle is viability. The definition for business success. Sodesirability needs of humans, feasibility, what's possible withtechnology and viability. The definition for business success. And soif you're if you want to start thinking about, Gosh, am I really doing the bestthing here for my long term relationships, reputation and revenue.This is a common track that a lot of people fall into. And if you start withthe definition for business success, you start with viability. What do wewant. We want X number of dollars or X number of clicks or X number ofwhatever's right. We start with our definition for success and then weimmediately go to feasibility, what does technology allow us to do? Well,As we all know, a listener to this show would know whether it's your secondepisode or you're set 200, you know...

...very well. The technology is insanelypowerful and incredibly inexpensive these days. And so that opens up a lotof doors and the problem is so many of us because it's the fastest easiest andvery often maybe even the most profitable thing to do as we stop there.And we're operating at the overlap of our definition for business success andwhat technology allows us to do and that's where we wind up doing thesethings that treat people like numbers rather than treating people like people.Another problem too is if there are people involved, not only are we atsome level dehumanizing the people were trying to build our business successwith were also very often dehumanizing our team members who are forced toexecute these systems and processes. Um, it doesn't bring them to life. Itdoesn't allow them any creativity or any space to make adjustments on thefly. Now that's an extreme that being in an extreme organization most allowsome level of flexibility and trust, but a lot of them don't either. I meanyou think about like just a really harshly run call center is what adehumanizing role that could become very easily so missing in that scenario,in case you missed it is desirability. What do people actually need and want?And this goes back to your observation earlier dan of like duh yup uh huh. Ifwe designed more of our work and more of our messages and more of ourexperiences starting and this is key for human centered design. It startswith desirability. We have to balance it with the other ones. This all has towork together. This is not an act of altruism, this is not an act of moralgenerosity or kindness. We do need to meet the requirements for our businesssuccess in coming to the right solution. But it starts with desirability andsome level of intimacy and understanding of the people were tryingto serve through this process. Now, good news is a listener to this show,probably is working from personas and I. C. P. S. And other tools based onresearch and interviews and past experience and what do we know from ourcurrent customers and how is that turning out? So we can inform thatprocess. It's just a matter of making sure that as a matter of habit we'reconsciously thinking about the desirability of other people before westart figuring out the other circles and we need to operate more at thatintersection of all three rather than the intersection of our success andwhat technology allows. And so with that framework, then we can starttalking about how we're doing this, how we're doing that and we're deep in thisat bom bom right now, Different teams because again, as I said earlier, Istarted these internal conversations and teaching these ideas months ago Isubmitted the manuscript at the end of March. And so, you know, and we did aninternal book club off the off the manuscript itself. And so we'rewrestling with all this stuff ourselves. So I offer that is the don't beatyourself up. None of us is perfect. There are no easy answers. We weinvolved 11 different experts in this book too. None all of them havestrategies and tactics that I think people will find helpful, but none ofthem has the answer. There's a reason we call it the Holy Grail. And it'sbecause nobody has it. I mean, I don't think anyone is going to I like thethree points that you listed below. And I'm actually trying remember the lastmonth's desirability, feasibility and the last one Viability. The definitionfor business success or the requirements for business success. Sothat begins to give me a little bit of a framework to even judge what isactually working here. So even I have a list of things. I was gonna say, see ifit passed your mustard or not. But let me, let me see if I can walk throughsome of them using these three things and maybe I can arrive at my ownconclusion. Starting with um it was funny, I threw out self checkout at thegrocery store, right? You almost wonder is like, well that's less human. But atthe same time the desirability to want to go through it is obviously highpeople use it all the time and...

...sometimes it's just faster, easier,simpler bam I'm out. Maybe it's less human because I'm not having tointerface with the human face to face. But as far as desirability goes, itclearly passes the mark and it's clearly feasible and passes theviability test. So that would be good. Yeah. Really, that's a great example. Iwould the one qualifier I would offer because I've been in this situationbefore is you know, I eat a lot of fruits and vegetables and you know, Idon't always like to like pick out the numbers and weigh each one of them. Theperson who does it, you know, 1000 times a day is faster than me. I thinkthe best case scenario is to have self checkout also with some other lanesopen. But my wife and I sometimes we'll go grocery shopping at five a.m. On asaturday and they're not staffing that the human checkout lines. So we have toself check. But I think giving someone the option there is a, to yourobservation. Yes, it's not inherently bad. In fact it's great. A lot ofpeople prefer it. Some people prefer it all the time and someone like meprefers it under most circumstances. So um good example. I like that one. I wasthinking of mandating zoom videos or you resume video on like in a teammeeting, that's been a topic of debate where people I've posted about it onlinkedin, people get pretty upset when you're like, we should mandate videosand some people get passionate about it desirability while it is more human andcertainly allows the team to connect more when you can see each other, right?Video. Desirability is always not there. Some people desire more, some people todesire it less. So of course, most companies have taken the stance nowfrom what I can tell, like strongly encouraged but don't mandate it rightkind of falls in that middle ground. I guess it comes down a lot to option isnow I'm going to find them like is that going to be a trend? Is that givingpeople options is probably the best thing to do. I think um, setting theexpectation, I think some get togethers it could and should be required. Um,and I think other ones, perhaps not, it depends on the nature of the work. Youknow, if it's a team, like let's just say it's an internal team at bom bom orit's sweet fish and everybody knows each other and it's maybe kind of moreof a stand up style update thing, you know, that's, that's kind of common andrepetitive. Sure. Give people the option or you know, we often havepeople that are like, hey, I'm eating lunch, I'm gonna turn my camera off andthat's cool and everyone understands it but I think as long as the expectationsare set and managed well then I think it's good, I'll give you the other sideof it as a buyer. This was super weird. So I agree. Like I don't I don't buytechnology for Bomb Bomb but but I can be a champion internally and so youknow I'm paying attention. I communicate with a lot of people onlinkedin and so I get pitched a lot of stuff and most of the time I'm like no,but if you tell me who your ideal buyer is, you know, I'll take a look at itand pass it on to somebody if they're interested they'll reach back out toyou in this case it was a C. X. Platform and so I was like that'sinteresting. Um So I was very candid with him. I am not your buyer on thisbut I'm super interested in it. I will take this meeting because I want tolearn more about it. I want to understand it. I want to see howdifferent people are tackling, you know, managing C. X. Which is this big crazywild hairy thing. Um So I would love to take the meeting. So two funny thingshappened one after we go back and forth about when I would be available for themeeting and we arrive at a day and time couple hours later he comes back andsays hey could you actually do it um tomorrow instead? Um and I was like, no,I already told you I can't do it tomorrow and we already picked thisother day, turns out it was the last day of the month. So I immediately feltlike a number. I felt like I was trying to fit his quota for appointments setand held within a month's time. So that immediately was a bad feeling. But moreimportantly and specific to the zoom call scenario. It was him and anaccount executive and me and I was the only one with my camera on. So I wantto talk about this for just a moment. Super weird for me to be on the otherend of this. I guarantee at a minimum...

...it was a six figure commitment,probably on an annual basis was probably an additional six figureinstall setup. You know, let's make all the data flow properly, um consultingfee on top of it. Probably guessing because we never got that far. I wantto know who you are. I want to know how you present yourself. I want to know ifyou believe in the things that you're saying, I want to know if you seem tohave my best interests in mind. Now live synchronous voice over the phoneor like cameras off on zoom, it's okay. But I as a human being, if I'm going torepresent you inside my own organization to put my own name andreputation on the line to suggest that this is worth someone else's time. Myability to see your face, to see your body language, to judge your intent andto have a fuller understanding of what you believe, about what you're saying,what you believe about my situation. Um, and all these other things that humanshave thrived on, like we need this information to make good and safedecisions for ourselves. We've done it for millennia. That's why we're sofreaking good at it automatically without even trying and largely withouteven being conscious of it. The fact that neither one of those guys wouldturn their camera on in a 30 minute meeting just weirded me out to no end.Like why wouldn't you in that scenario? I don't know you, I haven't met you.I've sent you a video email because I do it all the time or video linked inmessage. I guess it was. I had never seen them at all. I've just seen thesestatic pictures and we all know how distant those might be from reality. Soanyway, that's just, that's just a quick go in a quick story on cameras,off cameras on and then a pro tip for people, if you, if you feel like I doin some circumstances that you would like someone to turn their camera onLauren bailey, who is the founder and president of both factor in and Girlsclub is featured in chapter eight of this book. She's one of the 11 peoplewe engage directly on it. And she has a whole set of things that she offers toget people to turn their cameras on in a polite manner. That's fantastic. AndI'm looking forward to reading that section of the book. One thing thatcame to mind while reading the book was it really made, I think it really makesa good case essentially for good content marketing. Right? As a way todo essentially all the promotion you'd like to do but doing it in a way whereyou can actually create favor with other people. I was even thinking aboutsc oh right, you're like S E O can be a lot of different things that could bewhitehead, it be great head, it could be black hat, but if you're doing it ina way that essentially google would love it for you to do and just creatinghigh value content that ranks for the keywords that has actually has the bestand most thorough possible answer to meet their searcher's intent. Wellthat's just, that's good marketing and hopefully build some credibility withthem. Well, one thing I think about though is like, well if you start doingthat and that's good, where does retargeting ads fall kind of fall intothe mix and some people love retard. I'm actually, I haven't heard a lot ofpeople that love retargeting ads. I like them because I just like to seehow they work and what people are doing. But I'm a marketer. I'm a nerd someprobably a little bit different but people are either like or they hatethat their privacy is being stolen and now they're being targeted by ads. Sobe interesting to hear your case on this one particularly and I've heardways of making it better by retargeting with content or different things likethat. Where do you kind of sit on retargeting as I don't mind them? Ithink it's nice that um so so one big idea that you already just mentioned. Ijust want to double down on it. Any of these tools any of these systemsany of these things can be used well or poorly just like when the printingpress came out You could print really helpful and valuable material or youcould spread misinformation just like when social media became a culturalnorm we could use it for good and connect with people and help people andanswer questions and provide recommendations and tips or we can useit to manipulate large groups of people...

...and you know one of the women who Icite in chapter 16 wrote a book called deep fakes. The coming in faq ellipseher name is Nina schick, she's a geopolitical consultant and observedthat like the same groups like groups were creating pro donald trump and proBernie Sanders groups the same people were creating these two groups drawingpeople in creating the shared identity and then turning them like turning themangry. Same thing. Black lives Matter. Blue lives Matter like the same peopleare using these tools to manipulate people so we can do well and help ourfamily and friends and co workers and strangers and stuff or we canmanipulate people and make life worse for everybody and destroy the socialfabric that binds us together as people. So to your point, you know, we canexecute these things whether it's retargeting or anything else in a goodway or not a good way in general. I don't mind retargeting as long asthere's some substantial basis there that the behavior that triggers it hassome substance to it. I think you're much more likely to get that follow upclick and not too expensive a cost and so that's a caution, right? Is like themath is going to be better if you do retargeting in a better way and bybetter. I mean the behavior that triggers the re target is a substantialbehavior and to your observation that the follow up stuff is maybe iterationsor alternative versions of the core idea that continue to add some layer ofinterest or value or take you farther down the road. That's not my area ofspecialty but in general I would also add then this is why I went on the kindof that tool tangent there, it's a big idea but be people can turn them off.So like as long as people have control at some level and they know wherethey're being retargeted is your choice to be on that site. You know that thatsite is supported by advertising. Some of it is retargeting advertising. Ifeel like there's enough consumer choice there that you know, it it wouldbe hard to do that in a really aggressive or terrible way. I think thebigger question behind it is who has whose data and how was it obtained?Yeah, that makes a ton of sense. One of my favorite marketing books from DerekSievers, I don't know if you have you read this one? I have not one of myprobably second to marketers philosopher. As far as my favoritemarketing books, Derek Silvers wrote a book called Your Music and People andit's really a book written to like musicians about how marketing andbusiness and the man are not necessarily evil, right? He makesessentially a very concise case or why you can be an artist and do goodmarketing and let that be an extension of your heart, let it be an extensionof your music and your brand and what you stand for. That good marketing isactually just being considerate. Otherwise, your fans would never beable to know who you are or where you came from or where you're playing nextor getting that reminder to that thing you almost checked out for but neverquite finished. It's just being considerate. It's being, having thebest interest in mind at least good marketing. Of course there's lots ofbad marketing. It's probably one of my favorite lessons from the book. So evenwhen I think about retargeting, I guess you could even go to your audienceitself. They might tell you, they might ask, you could ask them about it andthey certainly might say something. I've certainly had people come to mewithout being asked about sweet fishes. Retargeting at times have been like,man, you guys are awesome at retargeting. I'm like, oh, like what doyou like about it? I don't know. I just like seeing them like, okay, um, I'veliterally had someone, a customer at a past place at work come to me and belike, hey, your Youtube ads. I just saw them all the time. I like them so much.I just let him play. I was like, wow. Because it was, theywere just straight up advertisements. They weren't content, but he liked themso much. He would just let it play because I think you just got tired ofall the other whatever junkie was seeing on Youtube Youtube's ads sothere's certainly a lot of room, lots of shades of gray. But if you're askingthe right questions and thinking...

...through it about what they actuallywant, what would you want in that situation if your favorite brands weredoing what you're doing, what would you expect them to do, what would you hopethey would do? Then you're probably taking a step or a few steps in theright direction. So to kind of wrap up this interview,I'd love to hear about the differences between the marketing of this book andthe marketing of your last book. What have you changed? How are you making itmore human because of what you've learned in the writing of this book?Sure. And I loved what you just offered their about marketing. Again, this isnot altruistic. You're not undertaking marketing the way you described beingconsiderate and helpful. You're not undertaking that at any sacrifice torevenue or results. In fact, the more you do that, the more you think thatway the better results are going to be. And the key thing is we have so muchcontrol now over what we see and what we don't um in our behavior uh is beingread by machines and so machines will increasingly control what we see andwhat we don't it already happens in our social feeds for example, or googlesearch results. They're very contextual to us. And so if anyone's listening tothis and be like, yeah, being considered, it sounds really nice, butlet's get back to the real job of marketing. That is the real job ofmarketing, if you want to be successful, You know, two years, five years, 10years from now because word of mouth, the ability to block, deny, ignore andto teach the machines that you're not worth anyone's time or attention. Likethere's just more risk than ever in proceeding in this kind of selfishindustrial lazy mass even mass segmented type of manner. And so I justwanted to say that so fun just as this is an observation. So two things Iintentionally did differently this time compared to 2.5 years ago when wereleased re humanize your business and then one big observation. So the twothings we wanted to do for sure is we wanted to bring this book to life. Wethought it would be fun. We thought it would be unique. We thought it would bein the spirit of the book itself. And so what we did was create a number ofexperiences around it. In some cases these experiences are rewards forpeople who opted to preorder at different stages And we had these 11experts and so we reached out to them and said, hey we want to do theseevents on these particular days. Are you around for them? You know? Sotomorrow for example, the day after recording this, not the day aftersomeone might be listening to it. But tomorrow the day after recording this,I'm going to be joined by dan Hill who is an emotional intelligence expertwith seven U. S. Patents in the analysis of facial coding data, julieHanson who is a salesperson and sales manager who decided to take acting andimprov classes to become more confident in her role and now she teaches peopleacting and improv to be more successful in their sales roles and on camera inparticular. And then Lauren bailey who already mentioned um founder andpresident of Factory and Girls Club these events. It's just me steve thesethree steve is my co author on the book in our CMO at bom bom the five of usand then whoever else wants to show up. The first one we did was super intimate.It was like 18 people plus me steve shep hiking who's a customer serviceand customer experience expert has written nine books and um dan tire whois one of the more beloved people in the world of sales in my opinionbecause he's just so over the top and generous sixth employee at hubspot forsalesperson at hubspot. And so these people were getting like intimatepractical advice about problems they were really facing in their day andlearning from other people who are asking their own questions of thesepeople. So several of these intimate experiences was one thing that wewanted to do to like bring the people out of the pages and make it like areal interactive experience that specific and custom to the people whodecided to show up and who were interested enough or brave enough toask questions in a group setting, intimate group setting, but a groupsetting. Nonetheless. Another thing was,...

I was very aggressive about 1 to 1videos. So I started um just like I would take five minutes and I'll justwrite down a bunch of people's names. People I like people I thought shouldknow about this. People who've been on my podcast, people have been kindenough to host me. Someone like you or Logan or James who I've known for sometime and I knew would be interested in the contents Of the book. Um so I wouldjust do the session and then you know, I would carve out 15 or 20 minutes aday and just send videos and as soon as I got through that list, cross them alloff and I brainstorm another list and another list. Another list. I senthundreds of personal video messages by email and linked in Over the probably8-10 weeks leading up to release And it resulted in a number of things. Somepeople said, this is awesome. I want 25 copies for my whole team. Other peoplesaid um that's really awesome, congratulations and nothing else fromthat. Other people said awesome. I need to get you on the show because theyhost a lie a linked in live or podcast or something else. Other people said,Oh my gosh, this reminds me of my friends. So, and so I need to introduceyou. And so I guarantee and this now leads me to the other big observation.We used a lot of emails, we have a very large database at bom bom. We have tensof thousands of customers and then thousands of people who try oursoftware for free every month. Um and so we communicate with those people indifferent ways and so we were offering the book to them when we did that withre Humanize, we hit number one in all these amazon categories 2.5 years agowe'd send a mass email. We light it up here. You know, the open rates wereabout the same. The click rates were not terrible. The content was prettygood. We're not just saying, you know, simple stuff like hey go by the book.Um you know, there's some of them were interactive and value added but Ipromise that I sold more books myself sending 1 to 1. Video messages in thein the ripple effects of doing that and say, you know, reaching peoplepersonally talking about the last time we connected, talking about why Ithought they should know about this. And then just leaving it in their hands,hey down below. I've got a link to the main landing page. I've got a link tothe book bonus. Like the packages we put together and a link to the fullintroduction in table contents of the book. If you have time and interest tocheck it out, I welcome your feedback if anyone comes to mind or it seemsinteresting. I welcome introductions like, um, and just leave it at that,leave it completely in their court. But in this way that is I thought of youbecause, and so it wasn't this like, hey man, could you do me a favor?Although I guess someone couldn't infer or imply that from from the message. Itwas like, it was a sincere like you truly came to mind as I thought, whoneeds to know about this? Who do I want? Who believes similarly to me and steveand in our broader community and in these types of things. And so I thinkthat made the whole thing a lot more personal and the result was really good.I mean, we just got out of launch week and the number of posts, even frompeople that I didn't send videos to. You know, people just coming out insupport of it um in a variety of different ways and it's just anabsolute pleasure. And I think it reinforces this idea that ourreputations matter, that our reputations are built message bymessage experienced by experience, comment by comment. And you know, ifyou're trying to cut shortcuts or you treat people like numbers, you're notgoing to get the things that you maybe need or want or hope for in the momentsthat you need or want or hope for them. Whereas if you treat people withrespect and kindness and you're curious about the work that you're doing. Um Ithink the results are going to be better. It's going to be moresatisfying work and you're gonna have doors open that you don't even knowexisted and that happened for me and it was, it was a joy. It's funny as yousay that it makes me think it's like doing doingthe right thing and doing it well. It's not just 10 times harder. It's not even100 times harder. It is. It is literally probably like 1000 timesharder to do it that way. But the impact that it has, like even justgrowing, like I shared that story about...

...trying to grow an instagram page. LikeI did it the hard way, just growing my own Lincoln following over a year and ahalf and I guarantee you like the amount of time and effort and hoursputting to just commenting, let alone, right in my own post. I'm like probablyover easily 1000 times harder and more time consuming. But it's also 1000times more rewarding. And I could probably sell something now throughlinkedin and you could probably like it. So I'm not surprised that you sold morebooks because it's just that much better at what it is. It's just harderand honestly, I don't think people are to our aren't that afraid of making thejump to doing something harder. I think they just have to have a moreconfidence that it works that yes, you can put in, you can putin the 1000 hours it pays out, it pays and I think as wecontinue to champion this message as we get it in front of more people and Ihope a lot of people from this show go and buy this book because it's probablygoing to convince you that doing it the hard way doing it the right way. Wellnot only yield better results, but we'll multiply whatever results you getin the short time period you put into like, like just putting the work intoit and doing the right thing. But it grows with you because all those messages you sent outDidn't just lead to one transaction. No, that was like an almost, it wasn't justan ask, it was almost a deposit into the relationship. You exercise therelationship in a way that now can lead to something again in the future in away that added value. So I love what this book is doing. I love that. It'sgiving people confidence to do things in a way that can, is harder but isultimately 10 times 100 times more profitable and just makes honest andhonestly, it's just way more fun to, as hard as some of these things are thereward you get when you actually enter into these conversations. I find it'sjust to be so much more significant and makes work so much more enjoyable. Sothank you so much for joining me here on GDP growth. I assume this book isavailable in all the different places. I don't know if there's an audio bookout yet, I think I looked before and I wasn't there, I assume that's coming ofall the places. What would you recommend? What what's probably thebest way to consume the book in your opinion? So we're currently notplanning an audio book for two key reasons. First, the number of voices umthat speak into it and some of the quoting that we do at length, it wouldlike, that's just an interesting, interesting dynamic. But the other keything and the reason I like it better in the, in the hard cover or in adigital version, you know, reader's preference. I mean the physical versionis absolutely gorgeous. We got to do all the design work ourselves. It feelsnice in the hand, is a beautiful product, but the reason I like thoseformats and the reason we're, the second reason we're kind of defaultingagainst an audiobook is that there's so much in terms of bullet lists,frameworks, structures, illustrations, tables and other things that just, Ijust feel like a lot would be missing from the audiobook experience. Um thatis much easier to take, even if you want to just like pick and grab it offthe page or pick and grab it off the digital page. Um so you can learn moreabout it at bom bom dot com slash book or you can hit me up on linkedin. Thebook itself actually has a page. Human centered communication with a hyphenbetween human and centered. Check it out and you reach out to me directly,if you have questions, if you're trying to decide whether or not the messagesfor you or whether you've actually picked up the book and you havequestions or feedback or even push back. This is all about conversations and soI welcome anything anyone has on it. Fantastic. Thanks again for joining meon GDP growth. Mhm. One of the things we've learnedabout podcast audience growth is that word of mouth works. It works really,really well actually, so if you love...

...this show, it would be awesome if youtexted a friend to tell them about it and if you send me a text with ascreenshot of the text you sent to your friend meta. I know I'll send you acopy of my book, content based networking, how to instantly connectwith anyone you want to know. My cell phone number is 40749033 - eight. Happytexting. Yeah. Mhm.

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