How to Think Differently in the B2B Space

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

In today's episode, Lesley Crews talks with Cinnamon Denise, Sweet Fish's very own launch specialist.  

Mhm Welcome back to GDP Growth. I'm LeslieCruise today. I am really excited to be joined by cinnamon Murray. She is ourlaunch specialist here at sweet fish. So she handles all of our launches fromthe kickoff call all the way through to production and she was previously aproducer. So she has recently just transformed over to that launchspecialist role and has had an opportunity to learn a lot aboutpodcasting from a completely different angle um in the past couple of months.So cinnamon, thank you so much for joining me today on BB growth. How areyou doing today? I'm wonderful. How you doing Leslie? I'm good. I'm good. I'mexcited to talk to you. We had a lot of fun in our pre call and I think whatwe're going to talk about today is going to add a lot of value to ourlisteners. So specifically, we talked about thinking differently and you andI were talking about inviting your customers to think differently. So alot of times in this role we kind of tend to see a lot of the same old, sameold and B two B podcasting habits and I think it's really because people whenthey're starting a podcast are afraid to step out of the box are afraid tostep out of that comfort zone. And one example that you mentioned that I, youknow, I completely loved was to invite your customers to interview theircompetitors and I would love to talk to you about this for a minute and why youwould recommend this, especially to someone who is newer to the BdBpodcasting space? Yeah. Okay. So where that stems from? Right? So one of thecustomers I was launching said that they went to their E. O. And um, thiswas the C'mon and they said they went to the Ceo and was like, hey, I want tointerview one of our competitors and the Ceo is just kind of like, okay,just don't make us look bad. So, you know, I mean, I'm sure there's been areport built up between the two of them, but the cmos approach was, I feel likeeven though, yeah, we are quote unquote competitors, if we are able to kind ofaddress and acknowledge some of the common issues that we're facing in ourindustry, not only will it make it more real for other people, but I think itwill almost um, position is both as thought leaders because we're willingto more or less work to get to work together. Um really, it's just aconversation. So it's not like you decided to partner up or anything likethat. So I felt that that was very much a clutch move and let's be clear. Itwas not my idea. It was totally this customers idea all on his own. But whenI listened to the episode afterward, it was like, oh my gosh, this was verybrilliant because you start to see, I think both companies started to see theholes for lack of a better word in their business and then their model andtheir business model and in their customer experience because it was likethey almost had the exact same issues. So, so it's like, okay, it's almostlike you're looking in a mirror in that instance and not only that, but it kindof builds a level of respect for one another that, you know, you probablyalready have, but it amplifies it. And I think it almost made them not feellike competitors anymore. Honestly, like by the end of it because they knoweven more so like what each other's intentions are and they could see, okay,actually their models slightly different from ours, but as you know,in business, if, if there's a small difference in how you approach thingsor what your product is or your services, it does make a difference onthe back end. So that was really cool. Absolutely. And you and I talked aboutalmost being like free consultation, right? Because I mean we see this inthe podcast world in general because I think that, you know, just issues thatwe've been having and hearing our competitors talk about it even onlinkedin is really great because it makes you see like, okay, we're notalone in this. You know, I mean, we've...

...been having issues with apple podcastsfor awhile since they recently did their new rebrand. Um, and I sawsomeone post about it on linkedin the other day that was a competitor of oursand I connected with them and was like, oh, it's so good to see that you'regoing through this as well. It's not just, you know, we're stuck in, we'restuck over here and we're dealing with the situation on our own. Like, no,they're dealing with it too. So how are you dealing with it? You know, like yousaid, it's like free consultation, which is really interesting. Exactly,yeah, I think that was the main points and that it's just, it's almost likeviewing another person in the same industry. Yeah, they're your competitorbecause you're fighting, quote unquote, fighting for the same customers, butyou have different missions, you have different reasons for why you start tohave different reasons for why you're doing it, you have probably differentgoals. So literally the only thing which I know is a big thing is likeyou're you're trying to get the same customers. But Yeah, it is like a freeconsultation, it's like a free consultation with somebody who actuallyknows what they're talking about versus someone who has been in the industryfor 20 years and now they've been retired for 10. like exactly, you know,and it's like okay because that's usually the main thing that I run intoin some personal endeavors that I have is that like I'll seek a consultant andthey will have had experience in the industry, but the last time they did abig project was like two years ago and it's like, okay, wait, I can't doanything with it, not relatable, this is not your not even relating to meright now. So um but it's like you don't you don't want to invalidate theexperience that they have because it is still they still have that experiencelike that's there, but it's not as tangible and it's not as tactical andbecause I'm a very tactical person, I need to know like what step 1231.11point 21.3 and then once all those are done, like if I don't have those, I'mfrustrated. So I've come out of consultations like Now what like Iliterally get to the end and I'll be like, so what am I supposed to dothough? Right, right. You know, 100%. I think one thing that will help likecombat that and I think that you and I talked about this a lot was conductingresearch and the importance of conducting research. Um and I've seenit time and time again where people tend to really want to skip this step.Um but I think it can save a lot of money and you know, even timeessentially in the long run, right? So do you mind leaning into that a littlebit? Research is empowering. First and foremost, it gives you confidence toknow whatever situation you're going into, that you at least are able tostand your ground would be like going into a courtroom and not knowing thelaw. You know, it's like, what do you even, you know, what are you eventalking about right now, if you haven't, even during your research and it willgive you confidence in that in that particular scenario, but also it givesyou a little bit more leverage because people respect data, people respectnumbers. And if you don't have that, or some, or some sort of like a viablesource that you got your information from, you lose respect really quickly.So, so it's kind of like with research the importance of it, it's not only foryou so that you can feel empowered to go into situations, it's so that youryour reputation stays intact because it's like if you move forward intocertain scenarios and I can't really think of a specific one now. But Ithink you get the point is that if you move forward into something and youhaven't done your research, it almost seems like you're you're irresponsible,especially quote unquote in this day and age. I think people say that, but Ijust said it because it's like the...

...information is so readily available,it's like, yeah, it's hard to even take you seriously. Um if you haven't doneit yet, I actually haven't done your research. So I think that's theimportance of it. Absolutely. And let's talk a little about the steps inconducting research and what that looks like. So whenever you're settingyourself up to whether it's to speak to a customer a new client or even like ina personal situation, what is the 1st and 2nd step that you take inconducting that research? Yeah. So I will like I will give more um tangibleexamples because I feel like like we said I feel when I go to consultationsI'm like wait so what do I do? So these are just examples for me that I've donethat I've seen work that I think can transfer over. So when I was going tograd school for example um before I even like decided okay I'm going toapply, I'm gonna do that's gonna do that. I would research um Like some ofthe students that were in the program like past, present and future. Um Solike I joined facebook group, you know for example where prospective studentsat X. Y. Z. College or whatever. Um I talked to past students, people whowere who had graduated to have gone on to do things that I wanted to do ordidn't really gone in the field at all. Like for example my degrees in musictechnology, but some past students that I noticed were like, you know, computerengineers and they studied music business. And so I'm like wait, how didthis happen? Um So trying to discover what those those there the correlationis between those things and it's easy to want to start at the top and workyour way and more or less work your way down. Like it's easy to want to go toin this example of professors or deans of students or the office of admissions,like it's easy to start there, but it makes more sense to kind of start atthe bottom and work your way up because the last thing you want is to waste thedean of students time. Um, So that being said, I would look up, okay, aparticular student, um, see what they studied and even look at the overallmatriculation of their academic career. So sometimes I'd be like, okay, what,what state are they from? Okay, what, what, what is that state good at whenit comes to education? Um, what extracurricular activities are reallyinvolved in? What are there, uh, social media pages? And because of the natureof the industry, like the music industry, people want to be seen. Sothey're either on linkedin or they're on instagram. Pretty much. So, um ofcourse that goes to knowing where your people are, but figuring all that out and even figuring out like what agerange there in, right? Because that kind of determines um it's not going tobe exact, but it kind of determines okay, maybethey're married, maybe they have kids, or no, they're fresh out of high school,like, you know, they, you know, they're probably in a similar boat to me atthat time, right? So, you know, that research and, and, and then deciding,like, okay, maybe this is a good person to talk to. Um And it's not necessarilybecause our backgrounds will be similar, it be because of my interest, really,like, okay, how did they land in this area? So that was, that would be someof the steps that I would take. Um And even from there, it was kind of its ownversion of a marketing hacks, and I'm not a marketer, so I'm like, okay, butbasically, from that point on, if I got a good connection with that student,they'd be like, oh, I'll connect you to this other student who would thenconnect me to like the program director, you know? And then at that point it'sit's a warm lead at that point versus me trying to email someone who probablygets hundreds of emails a day um and...

...hoping that they replied to my email,so literally doing all that research on everyone and at least having an idea ofwhat it is that you're trying to accomplish rather than solely network, because I think people,like people can sniff out, like if you're just trying to use them or ifyou're just really trying to get your foot in the door and yeah, like beingat this point now, like being, not being genuine and sincere about like,your connection with people and really being interested in what they're doing,it starts to become pretty evident pretty quickly. So Yeah, absolutely. Um That's greatadvice and I think that this can apply really well to be to be also um youknow in our industry specifically, you know if you're looking at a software oran agency that you're considering buying into or considering trying ademo with them, but you're just not really sure yet. I think looking anddoing that research, talking to past customers. So for example if someonewas interested in maybe starting a podcast right, looking at our agency,talking to past customers, president customers, people who work closely withus and saying, hey what do you like about this agency? What don't you likegoing to look at their podcast specifically and see how it wasproduced? You know, look at their very first episode, go through kind of lookat their analytics, see how they're doing um talking to those people beforeagreeing to the demo. It's like you're starting from the bottom and you'reworking your way up. So not only is that beneficial for you, but you'realso building that relationship with that person who can then, like you said,get you connected with the right person who needs to share the demo with you orwhatever it might be. So I think that's a really, really great example. Yeah.And the other thing is by the time you get connected to the right person,because we think we know who's the right person. But What I've personallyfound is that like eight times out of 10, the person that you really need tobe connected with is you probably haven't even heard of. Uh so you'relike, oh well, you know, you think so and so I mean the so and so is the faceof the company, but this is the person who runs it, you know? Um this is theperson who makes the higher is this the person who accept students? Like thisis the person that you probably need to talk to? Um So you learned that alongthe way, and then you realize, oh, if I would have started at X person, I wouldhave actually wasted my time. So yeah, absolutely. And you know, somebody whomight be listening to this sitting here thinking, oh man research sounds reallygood on the surface, but I personally have no time for that. What issomething that you would say to them? What is some advice you would offer? Um,So how do you find the time essentially to conduct this research? Yeah, it ispart of my, like, personal development time. Um to me,it's like a second job almost, but not not to the extent of like it's another40 hour week, 10 hours a week. For me it's like an extra two hours a week. UmAnd sometimes I do that in one long sitting because it's just easier to,because research becomes very linear. Um but like setting literally setting asidetime is one of those things where if you don't put on your calendar, it'snever, it's never gonna happen. Um but like when you do it actually sit downand be focused and be like keep an open mind to finding new things and yeah,like I said, you may be looking to connect to X person but just be open toknowing, hey, it's probably someone else that you're not familiar with. Imean, it's like who, who is the quote base? I think it was chris rock. It wasjust like, you know, um, Shaq is rich, but the person whowrites his checks is wealthy and that's probably who you don't know exists,right? So you see shock or whatever,...

...but you probably like someone iswriting his checks, you know? So, um there's people who are more and it'snot like a, you know, trying to get to the person in power type of thing. It'sjust like if you really know your intentions behind why are you doingresearch and what you're looking to gain? Um, and go from there now withthe two hours like this may be, becomes a whole other subject of how to manageyour time when you're like in a flow state, but knowing that you may notland where you intend to and being okay with that. And uh, knowing that youactually may change your mind, like, OK, this is not actually the universitythat I want to go to. I just learned that In this past two hours. And reallyif you think about it, like in the grand scheme, like you save yourself,this is just to continue with my example. You save yourself an entireapplication, right? And you save yourself for years worth of dependingon if you get funding or not student loans, right? So it's like thousands ofdollars. So you literally just save yourself money. So by just spending twohours of research in the long run, it saves you time to I mean, I know itseems daunting on the surface, it's called me on this. Research is going totake me X amount of hours, X amount of time. But in the long run, like if yougo to the wrong university or you go with the wrong agency or whatever itmight be, you use the wrong software that's going to take you, you knowthat's going to take six months off of what, you know six months to severalyears off of something that you could have avoided in two hours of research.So. Exactly. That's huge. So tell me what do you do when you run out ofideas for original research? Yes. So what I do is I actually start to try tofind organizations that are centered around what I'm interested in. Um Andagain like all of this is applicable to like personal endeavors andprofessional endeavors. Um I found that there is pretty much an organizationfor everything. Uh So so like looking at seeing who the members are in thoseorganizations like you know the societies, the greek organizations, thehonor societies, the um the non profits, the for profits. Like all of thesedifferent types of organizations, seeing who like the president of theorganization is, who the founder is. And then again from there I go down,right, because you don't like, I don't wanna start at the top for me, I don'tlike to start at the top, but, and then you start to say, okay, well there'sthis people who are um and the texas area, which is where I'm based out of,right? So okay, so maybe somebody is in the city that I met. Okay, well oneperson in this or this national organization lives actually in Austinsomewhere or they work at University of texas at Austin. Okay, cool. So now I'mI'm on linkedin, seeing what they were doing and more often than not, that's why I kind of, that's why Ialluded to like know where your, where your people are because the musicindustry there on instagram like we want to be seen, we want to be knownlike the artists and stuff are on instagram. But the music executives,yeah, they're on linkedin. They're not on instagram. So, so it's like knowingwhere people are and then being able to go from there. Um, yeah, starting atthose organizations, you start to find other like interest too because they'resometimes they have special interest groups in various sectors. They haveregional chapters and then the chapters have, you know, meet ups or they havetheir own conferences and organization as a whole has its national conferenceor whatever the case may be and like, gosh the prime time and I'm not tryingto trivialize like the covid by any means because I recognize and honorthat a lot of people lost their lives for sure. Um on the other hand of thatit was the prime time to kind of do...

...everything that wasn't accessible toyou because of job because of a geographic influence, right? Everyonewent took everything online. So I started doing like conferences onlinethat were based out of L. A. That I couldn't, I mean I'm not find L. A. Sohe wants to do that. And it's like the price becomes like the playing fieldwas levelled. Like the price is the same for everyone. You know what I'msaying? Like The price to go to this conference is $50 for everyone in theworld vs Oh it's $50 for me because I live in the city that the conference isheld so I can just drive there or I have to buy a plane ticket and get ahotel. Now it's $1,500. Okay great. Now I can't even go right? So it's like andthat's just me. That's my financial like Status, right? I mean not 1500 butyou know what I'm saying? So so it's like it really leveled the playingfield to to have things online. Um So when I runout of ideas for research. Yeah I started organizations and um from thereI honestly start to look at more things like j store like scholarly journals. Ilook at individuals dissertations. Um Because more often than not, if it's arecent dissertation that is someone who may have just graduated or justdefended their dissertation. And um they're pretty they're going to bepretty easy to access because they're not, you know, a I don't even know, I don't even want tosay that because sometimes you say you don't want to reach out to certainprofessors at schools, but professors represent the school at the end of theday. And so if someone is reaching out to them, asking them questions aboutthe university, they are kind of I don't know what their contract is, butthey're kind of obliged to answer because it's like they're they're partof the greater good of the school. So if someone is interested in the school,yeah, typically the professors are going to answer you. Um But yeah, Istart looking at organisations, reading dissertation and it's going to like jstore um And finding like free resources. Uh Really understandingthose finding documentaries. I love documentaries. Um But you have to becareful documentaries because they can be pretty biased is the only tell theonly tell one side of the story. So if I find a documentary I basically try tofind something that says that documentary is bullshit. So after Iwatched the entire documentary, I'm like, yeah, I love apples. And then Iwatch all right, read something else that explains why you shouldn't eatapples, you know? So then I try to I try to balance myself out. I'm like,yeah, I just, I mean, of course I just absorbed all that information as to whyI should eat apples. I'm going to be biased about eating apples now. So, uh,documentaries are great. And like those are for the most part free. Um, andyeah, and then for me to, it's like looking up who was involved in makingthese documentaries because more often than not, they're, I mean, they're justregular people like you and me, who literally they just may, they may havebeen like contractors on it. And a lot of times people are really honored toknow that you've recognized their work. And I mean you can imagine how it feelslike if someone came to you and said, Hey, I saw that you were a Gaffie forthis documentary. Like of course there are more than likely they're going tobe like flattered that, you know, you acknowledge their role in thatdocumentary and most incredible things have, have to have, who all wasinvolved in it. So no person is too small to reach out to. And you don't,you just don't know like you don't know how much influence or what role thatperson can play in your professional...

...and personal life. So I don't likediscount anybody. Yeah, absolutely. And another thing, just leaning into that alittle bit is, you know, you talked about find your people where they areand anybody who's listening to this can take something from this. This is aconversation that I've been having recently and I know that, you know,here at Sweet Fish, we press about linkedin connect on linkedin. Um youraudience is unlinked in, but it's not always the case. It's totally notalways the case. I mean I have someone who the audience that they're trying toreach is there are comedy business podcast. Right? So the audience thatthey're trying to reach is actually more on Tiktok and it's more on redditand it's not so much on linked in. So I think that is huge. Whenever you'redoing that research is finding your people where they are, it might not beon linked in. And I think that is such an important thing to make a note of.Yeah, 100% I think a big part of that too is like, yeah, I know where yourpeople are and if they're on, you know, Tiktok like actually have a Tic tacaccount, like set up, you know, like, don't come to me, you know, like ifsomeone comes to me with a profile that doesn't have a picture and it's someobscure name or it's a picture of their cat. Like I'm, I'm like, what's goingon? So you're not responding? That's for sure. I'm like, I'm like, what'shappening? You know, I'm nervous? And if it's some sort of weird message,like, hey, can you talk? And that's creepy. Um so, so yeah, it's likeactually having a profile, you know, like linkedin, I feel can get prettydangerous because if you're not careful, it's like if your profile is notupdated, you know, employers and your colleagues are all looking at that. Soit's like, ok, that if somebody sees, um if you say that you did somethingthat you didn't do at your job or something like that, it's like peopleare going to call you out for or they're going to like, call you out intheir head about it, but maybe, maybe that's me being like, paranoid. I'mlike, okay, you know, I don't, I mean, I'm not lying on linkedin, but it'sjust kind of like, I'm very aware of it versus on instagram, like I went to thebeach over a year ago and now I'm posting the picture. So now you thinkI'm at the beach, You know what I'm saying? Like Yeah, like there's just adifferent, there's different dynamics and being aware of like those nuancesand what people are taking with what you're putting out into the world. Umit's important to be aware of how that looks on different platforms, cinnamon.This has been really, really great. And this has been great advice invitingpeople to think differently. I think is huge for not only the Bdb space, butalso like you mentioned in your personal life thinking differently,conducting research. So, so, so important. Can you tell our listenerswhere they can find you online if they would like to connect? Um and learnmore? Yeah, sure. So my, my full name is Cinnamon Denise Murray. So yeah,that's what's on linkedin for sure, but I'm the other on the flip side of that.I am also a musician and um my stage name, I guess my real name and my stagename is cinnamon Denise. Uh, so, um I am on instagram, facebook linkedin,twitter and I do respond to all messages that I get even if they'recreepy because I'm like, okay, you need to know that this is creepy, but high.So so, but I mean, yeah, so I, I I love connecting with people and it'ssomething that I kind of thrive off of, especially just one on one connectionrather than big groups. Maybe that's a introverted, extroverted thing orsomething awesome. Fantastic. Thank you again so much for being a guest on GDPGrowth. I appreciate it. Thanks less. I'll talk to you soon. Have a great day.All is the decision maker for your productor service of BB marketer. Are you looking to reach those buyers throughthe medium of podcasting? Considered...

...becoming a co host of GDP growth. Thisshow is consistently ranked as a top 100 podcast in the marketing categoryof apple podcasts And the show gets more than 130,000 downloads each month.We've already done the work of building the audience so you can focus ondelivering incredible content to our listeners if you're interested, emailLogan at sweet fish Media dot com.

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