How to Think Differently in the B2B Space

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

In today's episode, Lesley Crews talks with Cinnamon Denise, Sweet Fish's very own launch specialist.  

Mhm Welcome back to GDP Growth. I'm Leslie Cruise today. I am really excited to be joined by cinnamon Murray. She is our launch specialist here at sweet fish. So she handles all of our launches from the kickoff call all the way through to production and she was previously a producer. So she has recently just transformed over to that launch specialist role and has had an opportunity to learn a lot about podcasting from a completely different angle um in the past couple of months. So cinnamon, thank you so much for joining me today on BB growth. How are you doing today? I'm wonderful. How you doing Leslie? I'm good. I'm good. I'm excited to talk to you. We had a lot of fun in our pre call and I think what we're going to talk about today is going to add a lot of value to our listeners. So specifically, we talked about thinking differently and you and I were talking about inviting your customers to think differently. So a lot of times in this role we kind of tend to see a lot of the same old, same old and B two B podcasting habits and I think it's really because people when they're starting a podcast are afraid to step out of the box are afraid to step out of that comfort zone. And one example that you mentioned that I, you know, I completely loved was to invite your customers to interview their competitors and I would love to talk to you about this for a minute and why you would recommend this, especially to someone who is newer to the BdB podcasting space? Yeah. Okay. So where that stems from? Right? So one of the customers I was launching said that they went to their E. O. And um, this was the C'mon and they said they went to the Ceo and was like, hey, I want to interview one of our competitors and the Ceo is just kind of like, okay, just don't make us look bad. So, you know, I mean, I'm sure there's been a report built up between the two of them, but the cmos approach was, I feel like even though, yeah, we are quote unquote competitors, if we are able to kind of address and acknowledge some of the common issues that we're facing in our industry, not only will it make it more real for other people, but I think it will almost um, position is both as thought leaders because we're willing to more or less work to get to work together. Um really, it's just a conversation. So it's not like you decided to partner up or anything like that. So I felt that that was very much a clutch move and let's be clear. It was not my idea. It was totally this customers idea all on his own. But when I listened to the episode afterward, it was like, oh my gosh, this was very brilliant because you start to see, I think both companies started to see the holes for lack of a better word in their business and then their model and their business model and in their customer experience because it was like they almost had the exact same issues. So, so it's like, okay, it's almost like you're looking in a mirror in that instance and not only that, but it kind of builds a level of respect for one another that, you know, you probably already have, but it amplifies it. And I think it almost made them not feel like competitors anymore. Honestly, like by the end of it because they know even more so like what each other's intentions are and they could see, okay, actually their models slightly different from ours, but as you know, in business, if, if there's a small difference in how you approach things or what your product is or your services, it does make a difference on the back end. So that was really cool. Absolutely. And you and I talked about almost being like free consultation, right? Because I mean we see this in the podcast world in general because I think that, you know, just issues that we've been having and hearing our competitors talk about it even on linkedin is really great because it makes you see like, okay, we're not alone in this. You know, I mean, we've...

...been having issues with apple podcasts for awhile since they recently did their new rebrand. Um, and I saw someone post about it on linkedin the other day that was a competitor of ours and I connected with them and was like, oh, it's so good to see that you're going through this as well. It's not just, you know, we're stuck in, we're stuck over here and we're dealing with the situation on our own. Like, no, they're dealing with it too. So how are you dealing with it? You know, like you said, it's like free consultation, which is really interesting. Exactly, yeah, I think that was the main points and that it's just, it's almost like viewing another person in the same industry. Yeah, they're your competitor because you're fighting, quote unquote, fighting for the same customers, but you have different missions, you have different reasons for why you start to have different reasons for why you're doing it, you have probably different goals. So literally the only thing which I know is a big thing is like you're you're trying to get the same customers. But Yeah, it is like a free consultation, it's like a free consultation with somebody who actually knows what they're talking about versus someone who has been in the industry for 20 years and now they've been retired for 10. like exactly, you know, and it's like okay because that's usually the main thing that I run into in some personal endeavors that I have is that like I'll seek a consultant and they will have had experience in the industry, but the last time they did a big project was like two years ago and it's like, okay, wait, I can't do anything with it, not relatable, this is not your not even relating to me right now. So um but it's like you don't you don't want to invalidate the experience that they have because it is still they still have that experience like that's there, but it's not as tangible and it's not as tactical and because I'm a very tactical person, I need to know like what step 1231.11 point 21.3 and then once all those are done, like if I don't have those, I'm frustrated. So I've come out of consultations like Now what like I literally get to the end and I'll be like, so what am I supposed to do though? Right, right. You know, 100%. I think one thing that will help like combat that and I think that you and I talked about this a lot was conducting research and the importance of conducting research. Um and I've seen it time and time again where people tend to really want to skip this step. Um but I think it can save a lot of money and you know, even time essentially in the long run, right? So do you mind leaning into that a little bit? Research is empowering. First and foremost, it gives you confidence to know whatever situation you're going into, that you at least are able to stand your ground would be like going into a courtroom and not knowing the law. You know, it's like, what do you even, you know, what are you even talking about right now, if you haven't, even during your research and it will give you confidence in that in that particular scenario, but also it gives you a little bit more leverage because people respect data, people respect numbers. And if you don't have that, or some, or some sort of like a viable source that you got your information from, you lose respect really quickly. So, so it's kind of like with research the importance of it, it's not only for you so that you can feel empowered to go into situations, it's so that your your reputation stays intact because it's like if you move forward into certain scenarios and I can't really think of a specific one now. But I think you get the point is that if you move forward into something and you haven't done your research, it almost seems like you're you're irresponsible, especially quote unquote in this day and age. I think people say that, but I just said it because it's like the...

...information is so readily available, it's like, yeah, it's hard to even take you seriously. Um if you haven't done it yet, I actually haven't done your research. So I think that's the importance of it. Absolutely. And let's talk a little about the steps in conducting research and what that looks like. So whenever you're setting yourself up to whether it's to speak to a customer a new client or even like in a personal situation, what is the 1st and 2nd step that you take in conducting that research? Yeah. So I will like I will give more um tangible examples because I feel like like we said I feel when I go to consultations I'm like wait so what do I do? So these are just examples for me that I've done that I've seen work that I think can transfer over. So when I was going to grad school for example um before I even like decided okay I'm going to apply, I'm gonna do that's gonna do that. I would research um Like some of the students that were in the program like past, present and future. Um So like I joined facebook group, you know for example where prospective students at X. Y. Z. College or whatever. Um I talked to past students, people who were who had graduated to have gone on to do things that I wanted to do or didn't really gone in the field at all. Like for example my degrees in music technology, but some past students that I noticed were like, you know, computer engineers and they studied music business. And so I'm like wait, how did this happen? Um So trying to discover what those those there the correlation is between those things and it's easy to want to start at the top and work your way and more or less work your way down. Like it's easy to want to go to in this example of professors or deans of students or the office of admissions, like it's easy to start there, but it makes more sense to kind of start at the bottom and work your way up because the last thing you want is to waste the dean of students time. Um, So that being said, I would look up, okay, a particular student, um, see what they studied and even look at the overall matriculation of their academic career. So sometimes I'd be like, okay, what, what state are they from? Okay, what, what, what is that state good at when it comes to education? Um, what extracurricular activities are really involved in? What are there, uh, social media pages? And because of the nature of the industry, like the music industry, people want to be seen. So they're either on linkedin or they're on instagram. Pretty much. So, um of course that goes to knowing where your people are, but figuring all that out and even figuring out like what age range there in, right? Because that kind of determines um it's not going to be exact, but it kind of determines okay, maybe they're married, maybe they have kids, or no, they're fresh out of high school, like, you know, they, you know, they're probably in a similar boat to me at that time, right? So, you know, that research and, and, and then deciding, like, okay, maybe this is a good person to talk to. Um And it's not necessarily because our backgrounds will be similar, it be because of my interest, really, like, okay, how did they land in this area? So that was, that would be some of the steps that I would take. Um And even from there, it was kind of its own version of a marketing hacks, and I'm not a marketer, so I'm like, okay, but basically, from that point on, if I got a good connection with that student, they'd be like, oh, I'll connect you to this other student who would then connect me to like the program director, you know? And then at that point it's it's a warm lead at that point versus me trying to email someone who probably gets hundreds of emails a day um and...

...hoping that they replied to my email, so literally doing all that research on everyone and at least having an idea of what it is that you're trying to accomplish rather than solely network, because I think people, like people can sniff out, like if you're just trying to use them or if you're just really trying to get your foot in the door and yeah, like being at this point now, like being, not being genuine and sincere about like, your connection with people and really being interested in what they're doing, it starts to become pretty evident pretty quickly. So Yeah, absolutely. Um That's great advice and I think that this can apply really well to be to be also um you know in our industry specifically, you know if you're looking at a software or an agency that you're considering buying into or considering trying a demo with them, but you're just not really sure yet. I think looking and doing that research, talking to past customers. So for example if someone was interested in maybe starting a podcast right, looking at our agency, talking to past customers, president customers, people who work closely with us and saying, hey what do you like about this agency? What don't you like going to look at their podcast specifically and see how it was produced? You know, look at their very first episode, go through kind of look at their analytics, see how they're doing um talking to those people before agreeing to the demo. It's like you're starting from the bottom and you're working your way up. So not only is that beneficial for you, but you're also building that relationship with that person who can then, like you said, get you connected with the right person who needs to share the demo with you or whatever it might be. So I think that's a really, really great example. Yeah. And the other thing is by the time you get connected to the right person, because we think we know who's the right person. But What I've personally found is that like eight times out of 10, the person that you really need to be connected with is you probably haven't even heard of. Uh so you're like, oh well, you know, you think so and so I mean the so and so is the face of the company, but this is the person who runs it, you know? Um this is the person who makes the higher is this the person who accept students? Like this is the person that you probably need to talk to? Um So you learned that along the way, and then you realize, oh, if I would have started at X person, I would have actually wasted my time. So yeah, absolutely. And you know, somebody who might be listening to this sitting here thinking, oh man research sounds really good on the surface, but I personally have no time for that. What is something that you would say to them? What is some advice you would offer? Um, So how do you find the time essentially to conduct this research? Yeah, it is part of my, like, personal development time. Um to me, it's like a second job almost, but not not to the extent of like it's another 40 hour week, 10 hours a week. For me it's like an extra two hours a week. Um And sometimes I do that in one long sitting because it's just easier to, because research becomes very linear. Um but like setting literally setting aside time is one of those things where if you don't put on your calendar, it's never, it's never gonna happen. Um but like when you do it actually sit down and be focused and be like keep an open mind to finding new things and yeah, like I said, you may be looking to connect to X person but just be open to knowing, hey, it's probably someone else that you're not familiar with. I mean, it's like who, who is the quote base? I think it was chris rock. It was just like, you know, um, Shaq is rich, but the person who writes his checks is wealthy and that's probably who you don't know exists, right? So you see shock or whatever,...

...but you probably like someone is writing his checks, you know? So, um there's people who are more and it's not like a, you know, trying to get to the person in power type of thing. It's just like if you really know your intentions behind why are you doing research and what you're looking to gain? Um, and go from there now with the two hours like this may be, becomes a whole other subject of how to manage your time when you're like in a flow state, but knowing that you may not land where you intend to and being okay with that. And uh, knowing that you actually may change your mind, like, OK, this is not actually the university that I want to go to. I just learned that In this past two hours. And really if you think about it, like in the grand scheme, like you save yourself, this is just to continue with my example. You save yourself an entire application, right? And you save yourself for years worth of depending on if you get funding or not student loans, right? So it's like thousands of dollars. So you literally just save yourself money. So by just spending two hours of research in the long run, it saves you time to I mean, I know it seems daunting on the surface, it's called me on this. Research is going to take me X amount of hours, X amount of time. But in the long run, like if you go to the wrong university or you go with the wrong agency or whatever it might be, you use the wrong software that's going to take you, you know that's going to take six months off of what, you know six months to several years off of something that you could have avoided in two hours of research. So. Exactly. That's huge. So tell me what do you do when you run out of ideas for original research? Yes. So what I do is I actually start to try to find organizations that are centered around what I'm interested in. Um And again like all of this is applicable to like personal endeavors and professional endeavors. Um I found that there is pretty much an organization for everything. Uh So so like looking at seeing who the members are in those organizations like you know the societies, the greek organizations, the honor societies, the um the non profits, the for profits. Like all of these different types of organizations, seeing who like the president of the organization is, who the founder is. And then again from there I go down, right, because you don't like, I don't wanna start at the top for me, I don't like to start at the top, but, and then you start to say, okay, well there's this people who are um and the texas area, which is where I'm based out of, right? So okay, so maybe somebody is in the city that I met. Okay, well one person in this or this national organization lives actually in Austin somewhere or they work at University of texas at Austin. Okay, cool. So now I'm I'm on linkedin, seeing what they were doing and more often than not, that's why I kind of, that's why I alluded to like know where your, where your people are because the music industry there on instagram like we want to be seen, we want to be known like the artists and stuff are on instagram. But the music executives, yeah, they're on linkedin. They're not on instagram. So, so it's like knowing where people are and then being able to go from there. Um, yeah, starting at those organizations, you start to find other like interest too because they're sometimes they have special interest groups in various sectors. They have regional chapters and then the chapters have, you know, meet ups or they have their own conferences and organization as a whole has its national conference or whatever the case may be and like, gosh the prime time and I'm not trying to trivialize like the covid by any means because I recognize and honor that a lot of people lost their lives for sure. Um on the other hand of that it was the prime time to kind of do...

...everything that wasn't accessible to you because of job because of a geographic influence, right? Everyone went took everything online. So I started doing like conferences online that were based out of L. A. That I couldn't, I mean I'm not find L. A. So he wants to do that. And it's like the price becomes like the playing field was levelled. Like the price is the same for everyone. You know what I'm saying? Like The price to go to this conference is $50 for everyone in the world vs Oh it's $50 for me because I live in the city that the conference is held so I can just drive there or I have to buy a plane ticket and get a hotel. Now it's $1,500. Okay great. Now I can't even go right? So it's like and that's just me. That's my financial like Status, right? I mean not 1500 but you know what I'm saying? So so it's like it really leveled the playing field to to have things online. Um So when I run out of ideas for research. Yeah I started organizations and um from there I honestly start to look at more things like j store like scholarly journals. I look at individuals dissertations. Um Because more often than not, if it's a recent dissertation that is someone who may have just graduated or just defended their dissertation. And um they're pretty they're going to be pretty easy to access because they're not, you know, a I don't even know, I don't even want to say that because sometimes you say you don't want to reach out to certain professors at schools, but professors represent the school at the end of the day. And so if someone is reaching out to them, asking them questions about the university, they are kind of I don't know what their contract is, but they're kind of obliged to answer because it's like they're they're part of the greater good of the school. So if someone is interested in the school, yeah, typically the professors are going to answer you. Um But yeah, I start looking at organisations, reading dissertation and it's going to like j store um And finding like free resources. Uh Really understanding those finding documentaries. I love documentaries. Um But you have to be careful documentaries because they can be pretty biased is the only tell the only tell one side of the story. So if I find a documentary I basically try to find something that says that documentary is bullshit. So after I watched the entire documentary, I'm like, yeah, I love apples. And then I watch all right, read something else that explains why you shouldn't eat apples, you know? So then I try to I try to balance myself out. I'm like, yeah, I just, I mean, of course I just absorbed all that information as to why I should eat apples. I'm going to be biased about eating apples now. So, uh, documentaries are great. And like those are for the most part free. Um, and yeah, and then for me to, it's like looking up who was involved in making these documentaries because more often than not, they're, I mean, they're just regular people like you and me, who literally they just may, they may have been like contractors on it. And a lot of times people are really honored to know that you've recognized their work. And I mean you can imagine how it feels like if someone came to you and said, Hey, I saw that you were a Gaffie for this documentary. Like of course there are more than likely they're going to be like flattered that, you know, you acknowledge their role in that documentary and most incredible things have, have to have, who all was involved in it. So no person is too small to reach out to. And you don't, you just don't know like you don't know how much influence or what role that person can play in your professional...

...and personal life. So I don't like discount anybody. Yeah, absolutely. And another thing, just leaning into that a little bit is, you know, you talked about find your people where they are and anybody who's listening to this can take something from this. This is a conversation that I've been having recently and I know that, you know, here at Sweet Fish, we press about linkedin connect on linkedin. Um your audience is unlinked in, but it's not always the case. It's totally not always the case. I mean I have someone who the audience that they're trying to reach is there are comedy business podcast. Right? So the audience that they're trying to reach is actually more on Tiktok and it's more on reddit and it's not so much on linked in. So I think that is huge. Whenever you're doing that research is finding your people where they are, it might not be on linked in. And I think that is such an important thing to make a note of. Yeah, 100% I think a big part of that too is like, yeah, I know where your people are and if they're on, you know, Tiktok like actually have a Tic tac account, like set up, you know, like, don't come to me, you know, like if someone comes to me with a profile that doesn't have a picture and it's some obscure name or it's a picture of their cat. Like I'm, I'm like, what's going on? So you're not responding? That's for sure. I'm like, I'm like, what's happening? You know, I'm nervous? And if it's some sort of weird message, like, hey, can you talk? And that's creepy. Um so, so yeah, it's like actually having a profile, you know, like linkedin, I feel can get pretty dangerous because if you're not careful, it's like if your profile is not updated, you know, employers and your colleagues are all looking at that. So it's like, ok, that if somebody sees, um if you say that you did something that you didn't do at your job or something like that, it's like people are going to call you out for or they're going to like, call you out in their head about it, but maybe, maybe that's me being like, paranoid. I'm like, okay, you know, I don't, I mean, I'm not lying on linkedin, but it's just kind of like, I'm very aware of it versus on instagram, like I went to the beach over a year ago and now I'm posting the picture. So now you think I'm at the beach, You know what I'm saying? Like Yeah, like there's just a different, there's different dynamics and being aware of like those nuances and what people are taking with what you're putting out into the world. Um it's important to be aware of how that looks on different platforms, cinnamon. This has been really, really great. And this has been great advice inviting people to think differently. I think is huge for not only the Bdb space, but also like you mentioned in your personal life thinking differently, conducting research. So, so, so important. Can you tell our listeners where they can find you online if they would like to connect? Um and learn more? Yeah, sure. So my, my full name is Cinnamon Denise Murray. So yeah, that's what's on linkedin for sure, but I'm the other on the flip side of that. I am also a musician and um my stage name, I guess my real name and my stage name is cinnamon Denise. Uh, so, um I am on instagram, facebook linkedin, twitter and I do respond to all messages that I get even if they're creepy because I'm like, okay, you need to know that this is creepy, but high. So so, but I mean, yeah, so I, I I love connecting with people and it's something that I kind of thrive off of, especially just one on one connection rather than big groups. Maybe that's a introverted, extroverted thing or something awesome. Fantastic. Thank you again so much for being a guest on GDP Growth. I appreciate it. Thanks less. I'll talk to you soon. Have a great day. All is the decision maker for your product or service of BB marketer. Are you looking to reach those buyers through the medium of podcasting? Considered...

...becoming a co host of GDP growth. This show is consistently ranked as a top 100 podcast in the marketing category of apple podcasts And the show gets more than 130,000 downloads each month. We've already done the work of building the audience so you can focus on delivering incredible content to our listeners if you're interested, email Logan at sweet fish Media dot com.

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