B2B Growth: Your Daily B2B Marketing Podcast
B2B Growth: Your Daily B2B Marketing Podcast

Episode 1647 · 4 months ago

How Side Hustles Fuel Marketing Team Success with Patrick Ward

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

In this episode, Benji talks to Patrick Ward, VP of marketing at Rootstrap.

Today's conversation is a lively discussion around the power of a side hustle. How it can help fuel your day job, and add energy to your marketing team.

Welcome into be tob growth. My name is Benjie Block, your host, and today I am joined by Patrick Ward. He's the VP of marketing at rootstrap. Patrick, welcome in to be to be growth. Thanks for having me, Benji. So, Patrick, I'm thrilled to have you on the show. We have a core value around here, around the show, and it's simple. It's just never stop learning, and today's conversation, where we're going to take this thing, really fits that core value so well. So I'm going to pose a first question to you, and it's just this. For you, and you think of never stop learning, I know it's something that you care deeply about, but tell me something that you're doing right now that really embodies that that core value. Thanks, Benji. I think the cave for me with this cold value is that you can never be content to just let your job run your learning. Right, we all go through these stages where we start with university, you know, that being the closest thing to our career. Then we'll get into our career, will go through a few jobs and more often than not many people stop there. And for me, yes, it's not about what you can learn on the job because, yes, that's important, but more what can you do outside? And that's really what we're going to talk a lot about today. We're going to talk about side Hustles, because I think this term gets stigmatized a lot. A lot of people get confused about the term, but I hope what we uncover for people today with our conversation that people should not fear the term actually relish in the opportunity that it provides, which, like you say, to never stop learning. Yeah, it's going to be really key for us to go down this road because people will have all sorts of different thoughts when they hear the phrase side Hustle. So we'll give a clear definition and what we're talking about the value add that it can be. But first we have to acknowledge you have an amazing accent, so people are very privileged already from the start of this episode we have an Asi here on the show with us and I love that. But Patrick, gift for us just like a definition, when we think of side Hustle, what exactly are you talking about and where do you want to take us in this episode? Absolutely so, for me, a side hustle should be something that compliments your life and what do I mean by that I want people to start thinking about side hustles as something they've got already inside of them that just needs to be realized in the real world. Because when people think of side Hustles, they think of it in one of two ways. Either the first way they think is the latest fad, the latest trend. This is drop shipping, this is I need to get into Seo, I need to do digital marketing, I need to do a commerce I need to do an NC store, or they think about it in terms of hustle, and this is where it's really toxic. They think they need to dedicate every last minute of every waking hour to realizing the side Hustle in that it eventually replaces their full time job. Now that's a worthy aspiration, but if you're doing it at the expense of your health, at the expense of your relationships with others, that's not what I want to be focusing on. What I want is for people to create a side hustle that serves them, and the model that we're going to talk a lot about today is how can you do it in just a couple of hours a week where it's still creates a worthy asset it still creates opportunities for learning, but it doesn't cripple you and it doesn't define your life. Yeah, I have a couple key follow up questions, but before we even get to those follow up questions, I want to clarify something, right, because we're on a show that's called be to be growth, and someone could be listening going what is a side hustle have anything to do with my be tob business? But Patrick, you think it plays a pretty key role, right. You think it can be a big catalyst, even in like to what you're doing in your daytoday.

Actual Nindre twenty five jobs. So explain that a little bit. How do you see a side hustle sort of matching up or even complimenting what we're doing in our B TOB businesses? So this comes firstly to the point that a side hustle should be based on your existing experience, and so this is sort of a heart of your question, Benji, of how does it serve my current company? Well, the fact of the matter is you got hired by your current company for a certain expertise. That expertise, when deployed through a side Hustle, not only allows you to further master that craft. We're always looking to find ways to level up. You know, yes, we might be at a mid level in a particular skill set, but we want to be advanced, we want to be an expert. So that's one way and the other way is you're providing another channel, and channel independent of your company. And we know this in the B to be world that at the end of the day, B to be has been so mysticized by all. We're selling to businesses and somehow we're forgotten that, hey, we're still selling the humans at the end of the day, and so what you can put out as a message from your be to be company might resonate in a certain way with an audience, but through a side hustle could be a completely different scenario. And that the amalgamation of those different channels. That's really the key for your company, because I'm sure many are in the same situation as I am. You know, I work for a company right now which is a custom software development agency. That too many people. Is Great. There's thousands of those and this happens all the time in the be to be space. There's considerable lack of differentiation and so if you can find the ways that you can exploit different channels that a separate from your main channel or your main website or your main social media presence, that it's underneath your company, such as with a side hustle, you can really unlock some substantial growth levels. Yeah, you're giving people permission to take a really unique approach and to think specifically quite differently. Right. So, earlier you broke down two ways that people sort of get side hustles wrong. They either focus too much on that second word hustle right, or they go this route of thinking I've got to go out and I got to learn a completely brand new skill, I have to do whatever's hot right now, which, I'll say, Patrick, I've been guilty of this, man, when I think of side hustles. Even when I had a side income, at times I still felt like I was supposed to know how to do drop shipping or I was supposed to create a tshirt brand, because when you look at like what's hot on Youtube, or you look at what you're marketed to as to the businesses that you should start, a lot of times it's sort of out of the areas of expertise that maybe I'm naturally good at, but someone made some money doing it and now they want to teach you how to do it, and now I feel bad because I don't have that same skill set. So I love that you're giving people permission to go further into what they're already interested in and try to like, basically find another revenue stream and learn more. Right like. That's where it comes back to this never stop learning piece. How did you first come across this idea for yourself personally, that like a side hustle could really hold some value? So at the start of the pandemic, I'm sure many people face this same conundrum where I suddenly had a lot of time on my hands and I was, as a fairly typical extrovert, out networking, going to different events three to four times a week, and suddenly all that time got slashed and got freed up. So it really boiled down to, okay, I need to use this time productively. You know, I've got an enormous opportunity here. I was still fortunate, and I certainly sympathize with those who who lost...

...their jobs during the pandemic, but I was fortunate to keep mine, and so I'm thinking, right what is the best way to utilize this, and this is where the natural intersection came about, because I thought of in the same way that you thought, Benji. I'd seen a lot of the quote unquote, fake Guru's pushing a drop shipping, pushing a course, something they want, they'd made a little bit of money and trying to teach someone. I thought, now I'm going to count that narrative. I'm going to make sure that what I craft is at the perfect intersection between my company and my skill set, and so that's where I stumbled on a website. Now this in if you pitch this to anyone, they would have thought this is the worst idea for a side hustle. You're going to create a Web site using an affiliate marketing model. Everyone was telling me affiliate marketing was dead, and you're going to create it based on outsourcing. Now, this was that the core of my experience and that was the point. I wanted to create it in a way that it was easy for me to do, and so I want to just dive in a little of how did I start, because I think this is something that too many people gloss over with too many platter tubes. They just say the simple thing of just start like that's all you have to do, but a lot of people still go, well, what does that mean? So here's what I did. I did a three month sprint of creating content where me and my business partner we got on zoom calls. We had a topic. I pick the topic because it was just sort of the twenty to thirty things people should know about outsourcing and we recorded them. We took that recording, we took it to a transcriber. You can you can find many affordable ones online. We used up work, but you can find it through many sort of freelancing platforms for for very little money. transcribe those into content and then we just let it sit. We let the sit for a while and then, through that testing at the marketplace, we saw which types of content we're getting people to pay attention to it which weren't getting paid attention to. And the great thing about this is even in this three month sprint we never spent more then thirty minutes a day on it. And so by the time that six months had rolled around and we started having some data of what we could prove that, hey, this side hustle is actually doing something beneficial. We hadn't burnt ourselves out, because I see that time and time again. Right people get really excited about their new venture, they pour all their soul into it for a month and then they're just done. They're exhausted. The fact that I could look back on this and realize, Hey, I'm not skipping a bait, I'm not feeling drained, I'm still feeling just as energized at the end of the day as I am at the start of the day, that is a measure to me of what your side Hustle should accomplish for you, because if it is in your expertise, it should come naturally to you. It should be more seamless. You're still learning, you're still expanding the skill set, but the foundation you're sitting on is the knowledge you already have. Hmm, I love that, and you break it down real practically. So let me ask you some follow up questions on what you just broke down. You say you did a three month sprint. In that time you're not expecting a lot to be public facing or making a bunch of money, right, and explain that breakdown. Like in your head, did you have a sixmonth time frame before you started to see any reward for the work you were putting in. When did you want to see that? Yeah, so the reason we used a sixmonth time frame, and this is where it was a little particular to my special of Excite Hustle, but you can apply the second methodology. The six months is because in the world of SEO and affiliate which is what I started in, and that's why I decided on that as a core underpinning for the business venture I was going to start, is I wanted it to last that long because Google will not,...

...for any site of, you know, a small enough stance, and this was obviously, being a fresh sight, going to be like that. You need that amount of time, that six months, before you will really have any actionable data, and so that was a really important thing in that I wanted to make sure that I was adequately experimenting, throwing enough ideas out there just to see what sticks, because I think we also get two trapped in our own head in thinking well, I have this expertise, I'm, you know, really confident in it, but then other people won't want it right. It's that a psychological phenomenon where we downplay our own expertise and we play up the expertise of others that we don't have, and so I wanted to remove that psychological bias. I wanted to just let's just put this content out there, let's see what the people respond to and then from there let's at that point, start thinking about what a business case is, because I think that's another mistake that a lot of people fall into. The side hustles. They try and get it to make money from the start. Now that should be your goal. You obviously don't want to do it for no reason at all and you want to craft, you know, a business plan towards that eventual goal. But you need to accept that, at least for the first I mean we didn't see a dollar come in until twelve months, and when that dollar came in, I will say it was a twenty five dollar affiliate sale. We were very exciting when it came in. You know, it's not a life changing amount of money, right. These things still do take time. You need to apply that methodical process. So yes, like you say, Benjie, the whole point of that six months was let's prove that we have something here of interest, because I think this is more to speak to where we are in the world right now. We're in an attention economy right everyone's looking for your attention, and so if you can master the way of telling a story, if you can master a way of communicating that is natural to you, that therefore pick other people will respond to, that's your first step. If you get that attention, then we can start thinking about, okay, what avenues do I have to monetize this attention and how do I do it in a way that I don't ask for too much upfront, because if I ask too much, then people will obviously get put off by it. Yeah, a key element you your story is something you mentioned earlier, where you don't want the side Hustle people start to take more than what what did you say? Two hours a week? Yeah, and so I think that's a key component where you were even saying like those first six months most of it, you're not needing to spend more than thirty minutes a day on it. In so the bar is pretty low. The obviously that that will make your runway a bit longer. So you had like this year where it's a little, I mean a lot of work is being done behind the scenes. It's not like it's just sitting in limbo, but as far as actual cash coming in and seeing the fruits of your labor, in a sense you're having to wait quite a bit, which I think that in and of itself is something that most people they refuse to start a side hustle or go down that road because they want that instant gratification. What did you learn in that year plus that you feel like made it worth it to wait that long, to put in that much time before you see a great reward? What were you learning? What were the benefits of all the work you put in? Well, this is exactly the reason why I say you want to tie your side hustle to what you're doing in your day Jel, because even though I didn't say a single dollar come in in that first twelve months, the benefit was that I was actually just getting even more knowledge than I already had...

...about my industry, about the world of outsourcing, about the world of software development. I was deliberately forcing myself to do things that, let's be honest, subconsciously I knew I should have been doing. But the great thing about doing it in the form of a side hustle is you trick your mind into going now, I'm doing this I'm doing this research, but I'm building an asset. But at the same time you're still building knowledge that you can apply today. You're building knowledge, skills, ideas that I was still taking to my team members inside my day job saying like Hey, I'm seeing this trend in marketing about our industry. Should we try something of that? So suddenly I'm using my side hustle almost as a form of light experimentation in the market that I don't have to risk our company brand on. Because I'm sure anyone will say that when you're inside a company, yes, you can be experimental, yes, you can be creative, but within limits. You know there is still, you know, significant money on the line and you want to be careful. But when you're with a side hustle you, and especially when you're starting, you can take all the risks you want because if it doesn't work out, who cares? You learned something as a result, and that was the big motivator for me, is that even though I wasn't seeing a financial reward for the actual side hustle itself, I was still being a Beta laid. I was still getting more credibility, mull cloud more. You know, the accumulation of influence within my company as a result of doing the side hustle. Hey everyone, if you've been listening to be to be growth for a while, you know that we are big proponents of putting out original, organic content on Linkedin, but one thing that's always been a struggle for a team like ours is easily tracking the reach of that linkedin content. That's why we're really excited about shield analytics. Since our team started using shield, we've been able to easily track the reach and performance of our linkedin content without having to manually log it ourselves. It automatically creates reports and it generates dashboards that are incredibly useful to determining things like what content has been performing the best, what days of the week are we getting the most engagement and our average views per post. Shield has been a game changer for our entire team's productivity and performance on Linkedin. I highly suggest checking out this tool if you're publishing content on Linkedin for yourselves or for your company. You can get a ten day free trial at shield APP DOT AI, or you can get a twenty five percent discount with our Promo code be tob growth again. That's shield APP. Dot Ai and the Promo Code is be the number two be growth. All One word for a twenty five percent discount. All right, let's get back into the show. I could not agree more with this point. It is so valuable to have a space where you are working on something similar to what you already do but have more freedom to try new things, because I think it also in some way you're growing your knowledge. But it's still enough of a new space, it's still different enough to where you almost get to see with fresh eyes, even though it might be the same industry. We can get really bogged down with the work we do all the time because we're just in it all the time. But if you just have a slight change, even if you're doing the same actual task but it's outside of your company context, you see new ways of doing things, you're willing to try it in a different way and maybe even having not all the same voices around the table right you're going and asking other people. That in and of itself is a...

...value add because you see things you would have never seen before. Hundred percent. I want to give a quick, concrete example of this so so people understand what I'm talking about. So we had tried out this idea that reports were really good at getting press mentions. This is something that's been a trend for the last couple of years where you see journalists increasingly want data to support a certain narrative that they're writing in their stories. And so we thought, okay, why don't we put together a study based on virtual assistance? We put together this study, we put it on my side venture, nanoglobals, and suddenly we're picking up press links from business insider, ink fast company and like okay, we're proven the model. Then we took that same philosophy, we took that over to roots trap and we took that to an industry that was more related to root straps work, I. Education. For those viewers who don't know my root straps the biggest client as masterclass. So therefore we're very strong in the education space. We've put together an education report using that methodology we'd originally developed on Nanoglobals, and suddenly now we also have a successful press strategy, a successful backlink acquisition strategy. Now I would argue if we tried to do that on root strap first, it might have, you know, ruffled a few feathers. It might have been a little bit problematic because it was very experimental and you know, there's just too many stakeholders involved. You know, generally speaking, a company wants something that is semiproven. I would argue even the most innovative companies still want something semiproven. So if I could come to them, Hey, look, I ran this over here. It was in a non risk and Vin aronment, but I've proven that the data measures out it looks like it works, suddenly we've got an entirely new strategy and tily new tactic that we can deploy for for our company. Yeah, proof of concept is so crucial when the business is already running at a high level. So to have somewhere where the stakes weren't is high, where you prove it out. You're going to bring in that idea and not that it's a no brainer or that you took all of the fear or you know, the risk out of it, but you did your significant research and you're not going and saying hey, they tried it over there and it worked. You're saying I tried it and it worked. So there's just so many benefits that I see. Here's where it really starts to hit home for me, Patrick, is you didn't just do this with yourself, you invited your team and actually encourage them to do this as well. Is that right? Yeah, so I have a pretty small tain of ten, but I've been able to do this with four of them. So each of them are in different spaces. Again, the actual semantic of the side Hustle. I'll quickly run through them. One runs an affiliate site for Internet providers. Run runs a site around buying tires online, one runs an ECO sustainability at sea shop and the other runs and outsource video editing agency. Now, the Samanta of the side Hustle doesn't matter because, as we've talked about at the start, the point of a side hustle is to pick it based on your unique experience. But the reason I wanted to encourage it for all of my team and why I ask any manager to encourage it for their team, is because it's going to develop some very specific skills. When you think about when you've hired your team members. Let's just take a marketing department, because obviously that's the area I know best. When you've hired a marketer, you've hired them within usually a specific skill set, usually maybe they've got some paid media experience, maybe...

...they got good content experience over the wood social media experience, but that's the nuts and bolts of their experience. In order to be the best market of possible, especially in today's Day and age, you need to understand how your efforts tied towards revenue and overall business objectives, and it's very hard, particularly for junior and mid career staff, to get exposure to that level of business acumen ordinarily within a company. What they really need is to start a business of their own and suddenly there are aspects that they never would have thought of. Write. Your standard employee isn't necessarily thinking about profit and loss, isn't necessarily thinking about where do I invest? Isn't necessarily thinking about product market fit. But if they're able to run a microcosm of that through their side venture, suddenly it opens up their mind to really thinking critically about their day job by the company that you want them to prosper and grow with, and they're starting to see, hey, maybe this sort of tactic would work or this sort of strategy would work, and you're not going to get that if you've just going to limit them based on the core experience of their tactical knowledge. How does this add value? Because I totally understand from the things that they're learning I think there would be some pushback in is this going to take time away, or energy or ideas away from our company instead of for I would assume you would maybe push back on that with if they go and they learn it, it like and I'm encouraging it, that's better than them going and doing it and me not encouraging it. Right. So I'll give a very specific example here. There are conversations I've directly had with these team members where if I had not cared about this level of growth of them, they would have already left me. And it doesn't take any financial expert to know that Attrition, Specifically Employee Attrition, is one of the biggest costs any business can have. You're looking at anywhere between twenty five and fifty percent of that person salary just to go through a hiring process, find someone else higher on board them, round them up to speed. And so the fact of the matter is people who have this mentality, people who embrace this entrepreneurial mindset, they're going to do it with or without you. But I would argue that those people who have that mindset, who are going to feel very supported by a manager like myself saying hey, I want to see you succeed in this side Hustle. There you're a team. They're the players you want in your company because they're the ones who are going to make the nonlinear growth right. They're going to make the outsize results. And the funny thing is what I've seen time and time again is when you've invested in this small part of them, whether you've invested in giving them some experience, some expertise, some advice, whether you've invested in giving them some time to spend on their side Hustle, whether you've even supported them in a simple way, like they have a particular course that they wanted to do, to help them formulate that side hustle, and maybe you expense that as part of a company expense rather than letting them spend it on their own. Doesn't have to be a lot, but when you do that, the motivation they have, the happiness, the creativity, the innovative mindset they bring back to your day job like that is where you see the real results, and so I agree with you, Benji. It's a scary thing. A lot of people say, no, I am paying for this time, so therefore you shouldn't be spending it on anything else.

I would argue you're not paying for the time, you're paying for the output and your job as a manager is to make sure that output is way in excess of what you're paying that person is salary, because otherwise you're making a trajectory where your employee is going to give you fifty one percent of work. They'll give you that fifty one percent because it's just enough not to get them fired. Okay, you have me sold. I love the idea. I think people should apply it to their teams. When I'm thinking about it, I'm going if I was hiring someone, this would be something I'd be looking for. Do they have that entrepreneur mindset where they're already thinking this way? But some people are going to already have functioning teams, great people, but those people don't have side hustles. They don't think this way. Patrick, what would you say to a manager who's going, I want to start to encourage this in my team? Did you have any team members that you've actually helped start their side also, or were you hiring for this from the beginning, so as actually a combination. So a couple of the team members already had the side Hustles, in which case you're absolutely right, Benji. The fact that I saw that, and I'd already seen that in the initial background check, if you will, before I got onto the interview with them, as soon as I got onto the interview, I was very much sold this is the right person. But equally, there was one particular employee I remember, where he'd been a fairly standard, you know, corporate guy. Right, he did his job, he worked really hard, had a good blue collar work ethic and, you know, all good signs in terms of doing the actual functional job. But the funny thing is I was identifying that for him to level up, for him to really start providing more strategy and providing, you know, more team management for our company, he needed to level up in a big way. And the fact of the matter was I was left with a dilemma. I can either spend hours and hours training him, but at that point I'm just telling him what to do, and which case I'm not even sure if he's really absorbing it or actually I can let him go off. I can give him a few prompts towards starting his own side hustle. I gave him a path, I walked him along the journey of how I created mine, same as we've done on this call today, and suddenly it unlocked for him. Suddenly he started to grasp he had ideas, he came back, he would bounce them off me and through that process of him developing a side hustle, being supported and having it fostered by me, suddenly he was reaching a level all by himself of what I needed him to be now, and that is one of the hardest lessons for any manager to understand. Again, there's a reason why micromanagement exists as a phenomenon, because there's a lot of bad managers who think if they just tell people or order or mandate a certain level of tasks, that's going to miraculously make the person better. It does it. They need to realize it themselves. Your job is to provide an environment to facilitate that level of education so that your employee is able to level themselves up, and that's really what I thought. That's again it's the time and time again, reason why I encourage even if a person doesn't already have a side hustle. I'll at least throw those ideas around and I'll push them and I'll nudge them and sometimes it gets it really annoying. I can tell my employees like a Patrick's asking me again, but I'm keeping them accountable to it because I know what the benefit will be to them and when they start doing it, usually I get them coming back saying, Yep, all right, you were right, you were right that this was actually really beneficial and I should have started this years ago, but I didn't,...

...and I'm like, that's okay, we all do that, but you started now and that's what's important. I think about it in our context here at sweet fish and for us, were helping be to be brands start podcasts right. It is a core value of ours. Like I said, never stop learning. I bring that up here on B tob growth pretty often as well, and we talked about that. But we don't want to just talk about it externally. Internally it is pushed like hey, you should start your own podcast, hey, you should be like actually in the game so you can learn what this process is like from the other side. What does it feel like to sit behind a mic if you're a producer and that's actually like encouraged around here. So it's in our context. It's not maybe ghost start a business, but it's understand podcasting so well that you understand all the different portions of it and then, once you do that, you get more passionate about audio as a medium, you start to learn things about video that you didn't know before, you start to be able to have ideas for your customers that you're serving. So all sorts of benefits that you've touched on, Patrick, that we're seeing here, and it's incentivized and talked about and it's championed here that hey, start your own show, take some time out of your week and go and do that. You're more than welcome to and I think we see the benefits of that. So I can't stand behind this more. I love that you said that there's this natural intersection where it's my company, my skill set, and all the sudden that fuses together. It's not something you're looking all around. Oh No, what do I have to do? I have to find it from scratch. So it can already be internal. That means right, if you're a manager, if you're a director, and you're looking at your team, you're not telling them to go find something new. You can just call what you already see out of someone and say hey, you'd be you're already great at this for us. You could be great at this for a bunch of other people and learn a bunch more. So there's so much here. As we start to wrap up, any last things you want to say, Patrick, any last words of encouragement or maybe practical what we should do as we leave this episode? Yeah, I just want to call out to the managers because I think they've been the biggest barrier to this having wider adoption, because I think many people have side hustles or side hustle ideas or like inklings of wanting to start it, and maybe the difference between them starting it or not is whether they got some encouragement from a manager. And so I want to say to them. You might think by telling them to focus on their work is the way to get it, but it is not. The Way to get the best out of a human is to tap into their energy and tap into their emotion. The fact of the matter is every human is driven by what intrinsically motivates them and then they want to see that recognition outside and if you don't foster that, you are only going to get fifty one per and in their effort. But if you invest in them fully as a person, if you encourage their professional development inside your organization, if you encourage their side hustle outside your organization and if you care about their overall wellbeing, you're going to start getting eight out of ten, nine out of ten, ten out of ten, eleven out of ten productivity from them. And when you see that, that's when your organization truly souls and when suddenly you, as a manager, look like a God gift from heaven. This is so good, it's so true and I think this episode is so insightful as a podcast. Right we're called Bob Growth and I just think about growth. This episode is one where people are going to be like, why are they talking about side Hustles, and I'm going because this is where the growth is. Right. You gave me a lot to think about. I'll sum it up as best as I can real quick. When we say...

...side Hustle, when Patrick says side Hustle in this episode, he's not talking about hustle culture and he's not telling you to go learn something from scratch. That's not in your wheelhouse. He's saying what do you already have internally that you can just lean into more and actually learn more? And then you bring that back to your day job and there's this beautiful synergy that starts to happen and it adds value to your current company and it adds value to your life, your overall energy, your enthusiasm and your learnings. And then I loved how you broke down real practically for us what you did, that it took you longer than a year to really see profits come in, but you were seeing profits, just not monetary profits right, and that was valuable to you. I think that will be valuable to our listeners to hear a different version of side hustle, that it can have a longer runway, but the benefits are all over the place. And then this idea at the end that managers probably are the one so far that if stood in the way, if you're listening to this and there's people that are reporting to you, open that door a little bit and watch all the benefits that flow into your company because you choose to empower people right, rather than it's kind of a no, we can't do that. There's no time. Look for ways to be a benefit to people and watch the return there. I love it at this such a good conversation, Patrick. For those that want to stay connected to you, man, they want to maybe follow more of your work, what's the best way for people to do that and reach out? So linkedin is going to be number one. So linkedin docom. I End Patrick, James Ward Or. I encourage you to check out our websites, both my day job, Rootstrapcom, and my side Hustle, Nano Globalscom. Wonderful. Thank you so much for being on the show today. Thanks, Benji. Hey, everyone that's listening, if you want to connect with me, you can do it on Linkedin as well. I'll just search benji block. would be more than happy to talk to you about business or life marketing. Love having those conversations and love the community that's forming and has already been here for quite a while at vtb growth. If you aren't yet subscribe to the show, do that. You can do it on whatever platform you're listening to this on right now and keep doing work that matters. Will be back real soon with another episode. Are you on Linkedin? That's a stupid question. Of course you're on linked it here. It's so we fish. We've gone all in on the platform. Multiple people from our team are creating content there. Sometimes it's a funny gift for me, other times it's a micro video or a slide deck, and sometimes it's just a regular old status update that shares their unique point of view on BB marketing leadership or their job function. We're posting this content through their personal profile, not our company page, and it would warm my heart and soul if you connected with each of our evangelists. will be adding more down the road, but for now you should connect with bill read, our COO, Kelsey Montgomery, our creative director, Dan Sanchez, our director of audience growth, Logan Lyles, are Director of partnerships, and me, James Carberry. We are having a whole lot of fun on Linkedin pretty much every single day and we'd love for you to be a part of it.

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