How Ramsey Solutions Organizes Their Marketing Team for Fast Results w/Trey Sheneman

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

In this episode, Dan Sanchez talks with Trey Sheneman who is an Executive Director of Marketing at Ramsey Solutions about how they are organizing their marketing teams to move fast.

In this episode, you'll discover:

  1. Ramsey's approach to a matrix style organization
  2. The squad marketing model that allows for the kind of cross-functional buy in that allows team to go fast.
  3. How they layer Kanban on top to make for an agile environment.
  4. How to get it started in your own department.

Trey's book recommendations:

  1. Inspired: How to Create Tech Products Customers Love
  2. Empowered: Ordinary People, Extraordinary Products

Yeah, welcome back to BTB growth. I'm danSanchez with Sweet fish Media and I'm here with Trey Scheunemann who is theexecutive Director of marketing at Ramsey solutions tray, welcome to theshow dan my linkedin buddy. This is a long time coming here. You and I'vebeen connected for, I don't know, a year, year and a half or so. I loveyour content, I love this podcast and I'm stoked to be here excited to talkto you today. Yes, I've been looking forward to this show for a long time.It's been months, months in the works of back and forth and now we're finallyhere and I'm excited to talk to you because I know Ramsey's Had some hugegrowth over the last decade. Remember listening to Dave way back in 2010,just went onto the leadership was launched and of course it's it's growntremendously since then from a few 100 people to well over 1000 employees nowand I know you guys are building a whole new building, you're probablyyou're going to be at Maybe over 2000 soon. Yeah, with all that change, allthat growth comes a significant amount of change. And so one of the things wetalked about in our pre interview was some of the changes taking place inyour marketing team and I thought the audience would just be fascinated toknow how you guys are organizing those things but to kind of kick it off, Iwanted to know how many marketers do you currently have at Ramsey. So we area Matrix organization. So marketing is a Matrix discipline within Ramsey andwe're going to talk more about that as we go. I actually had to go and lookthis number up because I was unsure. As of just last week we have 100 and eightmarketers who work here at Ramsey, so about 10% of the company is in somemarketing discipline. Um And that just accounts for the actual marketingstrategist or the channel specialists that we have, that does not account forthe sort of support personnel that go into creating marketing work, whichwe'll talk about that structure here shortly, but that, you know, writers,designers, engineers, so on and so forth. But just pure marketers a littleover 100. So for those who aren't familiar with like the whole Matrixstyle, like there's usually a few...

...different ways to organize marketdepartments within a, I can't even say large organizations but mid sized tolarge companies, What are the few different types of ways to organizemarketing? Yeah. So my client's experience, I've experienced two ways.Uh And then I had agency experienced before that and I'd say I experiencedmost of these ways as well, you tend to either have the fully embedded modelwhere if you're in a specific business business line item or a business unitwithin the overall P and L. Of a of a mid sized company, you have fullyembedded teams who only work on that information or you'll have sort of thesomewhat embedded Center of Excellence model where some of your team fullywork in the business and some of your team act more as consultative voicesaround specific channels or specific strategies. And then the third modelthat I've seen when I was an agency world is the other model where therewere no embedded marketers anywhere inside the actual business units of theorganization. They were all the center of excellence and they kind of acted asan internal agency within the brand. So or so I've seen that range of clientside, uh kind of set ups and Ramsey functions very much in the middle. Oneof those three that I that I discussed, some embedded in some more center ofexcellence. I've seen a few of them myself and I've noticed going back fromone to the other, I was kind of like, uh like it's always, there's alwayspros and cons, right? There's never enough resources. Usually when you havededicated marketing teams working for an individual business unit, right,they're always missing something or one team has this specialty person, you'relike, oh, can we get some of that person's help? Right? So there's alwaysa downfall with that model. But at the same time, the agency model, I think weboth know how that's panned out at times where the biggest business unitgets all the attention and there's always the smaller business units thatare always crying crying foul. We never get treated enough. But for marketing,right, we never get our fair share, which is pretty much at everyorganization that runs that that's happened to me and I'm usually theproject manager in the middle trying to keep the peace, which is no fun. Nowthe Matrix model has been interesting,...

...right? And I've seen a lot of peoplerecommended, I've no verne Harnish is a big fan of the Matrix model, but whereverne Harnisch from scaling up would recommend essentially, I think havinglike a brand manager within the middle, in the marketing department thatreports to the business unit leader and has a dotted line to the CMO, you guysdo the opposite? How did you, how did you arrive at that conclusion? To mixit up that way? I would say primarily because if you think about Ramsey'shistory. So for those who are unfamiliar with Ramsey solutions, mostpeople would know our Ceo Dave Ramsey's gotta talk radio show that he's had for20 some odd years on money management, personal finance management, things ofthat nature. But we do lots of other things books, you know, we've got B twoB services, we have about 15 different business lines within the RamseySolutions umbrella. So in the early days here, you know, when we, themarketing was very centralized into that kind of agency or single teamapproach, there were certain things that got the coverage is certain thatdidn't and so we knew there was gonna be a scale and when you're moving outof sort of the traditional channels of radio, live events, book kind oftraditional media and into digital media, uh, there was, there was a realneed and a desire to make sure that the discipline of marketing stay true tothe craft and stayed straight through to the growth model while the businessunits kind of caught up. And so that's why we, we have, it's still even today,you know, we are direct line to our discipline and then died aligned to thebusiness. Now, that's a reporting, that's an organizational structure. Um,I would say functionally I spend 85% of my time and the businesses that I serve.And so with my teams that I lied, but at the end of the day, you know, who doI ultimately report to? You know, my seat reports up through to the CMO ofthe organization and so do the business unit Marketer's report up through me.And I think it's more from a discipline oversight standpoint than it isnecessarily a objective or key results, sort of accountability standpoint. Allthat comes from the business. And it's worked for us. It's worked for us inthat we've, like I said, we've, we've grown a hunt, you know, from, from 12or 15, 10, 12 years ago to over 100...

...going to grow even more now, you know,is it something that's up for discussion long term might be, I don'tknow, that's just the model that we've deployed up to this point. Would youguys say that Ramsey's is like a marketing almost feel like, I don'tknow like even 10 years ago, like a popular mantra that people have beenbanging the drum on ever since then is marking department should become mediadepartments, right? I feel like Ramsey's has kind of grown up like that.Like Ramsey literally started as a radio show and then grew into abusiness. Like it's always been a media company, It's always had marketing atthe forefront. Do you feel like that might play into like why it's such amarketing focused organization? Yeah, I would say we're heavy sells themarketing driven organization and that kind of his nuance very specificallyfrom the D. N. A. Of of our ceo himself and Dave, I mean in his core, he is anincredible salesman. He's an incredible marketer. The gentleman can, can dopositioning like very few other people, um that I've ever seen. And he's alsothe only Ceo I know in America that talks to our customer for two hoursevery day on the radio, so he's very in tune with the customer and the customerpsyche. And so for us as the marketing department, he's a great confident or agreat advisor to us in that regard. And so yeah, we pride ourselves on being amarketing first company who creates transformative media, it's not justDave you know, and the other, we have, you know, a handful of otherpersonalities, we've got our first full length documentary coming out in 10days about the student loan debt crisis in America, which is just crazy rightnow. $33 trillion I think in in debt. It's incredible. Full link to ourdocumentary that we made. You know, we've got other projects like thatcoming in the years to come because we do view ourselves as media makers andnot just product makers at the same time, my specific division is heavilyin the digital products space because we do see that as the future of thisbrand is that we have the media out there in the marketplace, creatingthose first connections and the emotional touch points with peoplewhere we move them into from a transformational standpoint is intodigital products and that's ultimately...

...what we think the long term future is,is the way we connect media and personality to product kind of longterm. Yeah, I mean when I saw Dave Ramsey start to get into like the sashand recurring revenue model was like, oh, watch out like he's going to startblowing up because the recurring revenue model is just so powerful andbeing able to just do normal things like forecast and then budget accordingto an accurate forecast. That makes the difference when you're trying to grow.So I'm excited about the continued growth at Ramsey is about to see, Iknow within your marketing teams, you guys don't just organize accordingaccording your your your teams according to specialties, but before wedive into the specialties, like kind of give me an idea of like how you'remarking, departments are structured and then with the specialties, um, teams atthe bottom. So we sort of have two lines of marketing function. We havebusiness unit marketing, which are is designed to be a more of a generalistmarketer who can come in understand the needs of the business, the functions ofthe product, the voice of the customer for that specific product line. Um in alot of ways they function sort of like a product manager would function juston the marketing side of the equation. And then we have specialty marketerswithin the building. So going to your, you know, you and I have talked ownerand paid before, so content strategist, content marketers. S ceos paid mediabuyers cros specialist, which is the newest discipline we've added in thelast two years since I've been here, which is, which is awesome. So we'rerunning split tests, pretty much 24 hours a day, seven days a week acrossthe scope of our funnel. Um so you have those channel specialists and thosebusinesses and marketers and it's sort of like we understand the customer, weunderstand the business needs, we understand the problems are productsolves, we understand the go to market strategy and then they partner withthose channel specialists who then come in and say we understand the channel,we understand the tactics, we understand the bid strategies, weunderstand, you know schema markup in S. E. O. So those groups put their headstogether and the best way for us to go and problem solve this objective withthese key results is to do X, Y and Z.

So it's a real partnering kind ofsymbiotic relationship from a strategic thinking standpoint. Um And then whenwe're ready to deliver the work that we've dreamed up, we actually use asquad model kind of from the Inspired empowered world from marty Kagan fromSilicon Valley product group. Great book series. If you have something youwant to read. And those two books um to where those these groups almostfunction like internal little many agencies inside of the one businessunit that they now serve as a fully dedicated resource to drive thatbusinesses. Gold channel specialist, generalist marketer and then writerdesigner or two writers to designers and an engineer so that they canactually build a so they can idea to solution and then deliver it to themarket and then iterate from there. Yeah. So did I hear a right that youhave about 78 people on one squad. Yeah it's a really depends on I would saythat's a healthy squad that that would be ideal. Do we have some squads thatare smaller and one or two that might be a little bit bigger. Yeah but youtend to want to try and have you know one generalist market whose function iswhat we would call the request manager. So they're driving the work and thenyou're gonna have a couple of writers, one might be long form and one might bea copywriter, you're gonna have a couple of designers, one might be alittle more U. X. And one might might be a little more production driven likeyou know kind of ads and and that sort of kind of creative and then you'regonna and I are within some of my teams we have dedicated engineers and some ofour teams the engineering work is so light that they use an engineering poollike a hat team like how the available team and then they pull them in whenthey need to so yeah 5 to 8 people kind of working together to solve a problemtogether from a multidisciplinary approach to the to the problem. Sothat's fascinating. How long did the team stay together? Do they just staytogether through the one project and then disband or do they kind of do youhave like you give them names and they take on multiple projects? We've triedit a couple of different ways in the last two years since we went to went tothis model. This squad squad centric setup is about two years old. TheMatrix has been here for a while but that squad delivery system kind of theactual marketing approaches a couple...

...years old. Um I would say this year wecommitted to the durability of the squads. So what I mean by that is wemight change what objective they work on but we rarely want to change who'sworking with who so that they can develop really great chemistry andlearn to work well together and drive to those problems. So we haven't madeany squad level adjustments personnel wise this entire calendar year, eventhough we've changed objectives, you know, four or five times. Gosh, thatsounds amazing. It kind of sounds like you have the nimbleness of a, like astartup marketing team, right? I mean I know my marketing team is about four orfive people on my hiring a few more but we'll be nimble, we'll be able to movefast because I'll have all those disciplines represented because there'snot a huge organization but you guys gotta have it the best of both that wayI would say as the leader of the bunch, I probably always wish we'd go a littlefaster but but I would say the key driver that we have seen this year isbuying and until you really have buy in from the people on the teams, there'salways there's always room for there to be a nay Sayer in the group who's like,well that was never going to work in the first place. And so by forcing thatcamaraderie and that collegial kind of approach to the work, we are driving ahigh level of buying with the teams where they take ownership over thethings they commit to, which is what I want, five days a week. I want peopleto really feel it in their bones, like I agree with the work I'm bought intothe work, we're going to deliver the work and it's either going to work orit's not and we're gonna own it every step of the way. And we have seen thatfrom our team since we've been to this model, which I think is a powerfulforce for momentum, within a team, who's the leader of the group, is itoutside the group or eternal embedded right now? You know, we kind of havethat sort of where the senior marketer sits within my structure, within myteam at least. Um, you know, somebody that's got some got some years on them,they, they kind of, they understand the customer, they understand the product,they understand history and they also understand forecasting and they wereable to still then ask great questions and listen well to their team membersthat do great research, talk to the...

...customer of the prospect, you know, wewere big proponents of user testing, uh, you know, various things before youlaunch it and doing focus groups and things of that nature, definitelyrunning multi variant tests as many times as you possibly can so that Iwould say they're the holder of the opinion that kind of but I would sayit's a pretty loose grasp at the end of the day. The data is gonna manifestexactly where it is. We're supposed to go and opinions can stay to the side.But yeah there is a drawstring, we do have a drawstring approach where Ithink this is always saying this way it's kind of like a vulgar thing butlike the phrase is a single readable neck like we have a single renewableneck kind of strategy and it's just the idea of like who are we going to ifthere's an issue and and they all know who that is at the same time though.They sit, they sit together, they talk together you know they're heldaccountable together. So yeah they're group has buy in which I think again isa competitive advantage that a lot of companies should want their teams thathave in the work that they're doing. Hey everybody Logan with sweet fishhere if you're a regular listener of GDP growth, you know that I'm one ofthe co hosts of the show but you may not know that I also head up the salesteam here at sweet fish. So for those of you in sales or sales ops I wantedto take a second to share something that's made us insanely more efficientlately Our team has been using lead I. Q. For the past few months. And whatused to take us four hours gathering contact data now takes us only onewhere 75% more efficient were able to move faster with outbound prospectingand organizing our campaigns is so much easier than before. I'd highly suggestyou guys check out lead I. Q. As well. You can check them out at least I. Q.Dot com. That's L. E A D. I. Q. Dot com. All right let's get back to the show.So that guy or a girl is a generalist marketer. Sam. And what is that person?Usually a manager or director? That's a...

...great question and I'm not sure weactually talked about this much in the pre interview but it's not a peopleleadership position. So each one of the people that are in their groups has anart director or you know a. D. Of content or a channel specialty leaderthat they get their people leadership from its a work product leadershipposition. So there are a manager of the output of the group but they're notgoing to be doing one on ones personnel wise with the people that are in theirsquads. So we don't create that dynamic within the group. All that dynamicstays with we kind of have a coaching model that we use with our mid seniorlevel where they're like our A. D. Level positions on our team are reallydesigned to be people leaders and coaches more than anything else? Theydon't do any work, they don't do any production level work. And so thatfrees the request manager up to kind of kind of both keep the squad committedto what they're doing um in partnership with project management, which we wouldcall a delivery manager and this model and then they can stay out in front ofthe squad of going where we're going next, where we're going next, wherewe're going and when that proves itself out where we're going next. So that isa great clarifying questions. Not a people leadership position, it's a workleadership position. Gotcha. So are they the tiebreaker if two differentdisciplines within that team are arguing over this way or that way, Iwould say sometimes I'm the type record. But for the most part, if they reallyget landlocked, I would have a higher expectation on the generalist to speakup and say this is I'm going to make the call, I'm the one that's going togo into what we use a meeting structure called a stakeholder meeting, which isbasically where the the generalists bring in their body of work that theyintend to do for the next commitment cycle, seven days, 10 days or whateverit is. And that's a chance for myself and the other leaders to say have aquestion about that, why, why why that not this or you know, how do you guysarrive at that conclusion? And so and so forth. So since they're the onesthat have to own that room, they tend to get to be the tiebreaking voice. Itmakes a lot of sense to me, it almost sounds somewhere between a projectmanager and a marketing director, kind...

...of somewhere in there. It's aninteresting role. It is and someone who's actually just really good atcreating buy in for people. So people really good people strength. Yeah,that's right. Really great listeners do well in this role because they are in away driving and leading a group of people that they don't leave directly.You know, they're not responsible for leading directly. So they have to bereally committed to the well being of the group, while also being responsiblefor the ultimate in product that we're trying to drive, which in this case,you know, one case might be a free trial start or the download,downloading of an app or a lead based business to set up a call for a salesteam, so and so forth. So yeah, it's it's a very different model. It's again,because we're in the digital product space, this is the way we do productmanagement and development here. So that's kind of where the model wasbirthed out of and we want to keep teams on similar meetings and, you know,we're finding success with it. And it's one of those things that were sort oftinkering with all the time because the, the biggest wildcard in all of it isthe people of dynamics, of the people that you stick together within a group.And so, um, you know, that is something that, you know, we don't necessarilyhave all of our groups jelling the way we like all the time, but it'ssomething that, you know, marketing leadership, project management,leadership, engineering, leadership, maker level, kind of a designer writerlevel leadership, we would all be monitoring and working on together tomake sure that the squad is set up as best you can to succeed. You mentioneda little bit ago about how you manage projects or that you're taking shortsprints or workloads for a time. Tell us a little bit more about there areproject management philosophy and how you organize that with these squads. Sowe, we use an agile and agile methodology combined, uh, from a systemstandpoint, jurors are actual project management platform per se. And so thesquads work in what has been dubbed roles in cadences. And so essentially,uh, their cadence meeting structure is they do ideation where they kind ofcome together as a group and say what's...

...the best way for us to solve this nextproblem that we have, then, you know, once the ideas is committed to andeverybody's on board is a valid idea that we think is actually gonna deliverthe value, we want the marketplace, they commit. Once they commit, theydecamped the work and decamping the word, breaking it down into bite sizepieces so they could see how long the delivery schedule is going to be to getthe work done and then they come into a delivery schedule and then they deliverand then they retro after that, how did it work? You know, what worked, whatdidn't do we get the impact we wanted to be not those cycles could be twodays long, that, that could all be two days. If it's, if it's one size of work,it could also be three weeks if it's a big body of work. And so I will say attimes when we find work that, so let's say one of my groups might have 33objectives at one time, which means they have three squads, each working ona different objective. It might be that we find out in a stakeholder meeting,that this second squad overhears third or fourth action that they want todrive to their objective is actually more beneficial to the business thanthe first. The second action that this other squad wants to drive. So thatcross communication of like what's the next most important thing, we need tobe working on a drive impact for the business is key in this model and then,and so sometimes when that comes up, what might happen is, is the squad'smight all decide to stop their own commitments, cycles for a week andactually coming together and sprint for a week on one big delivery item, youknow, a new set of landing pages are an entirely new funnel and we want toreshape this entire funnel in a week. So we're gonna put six designers, fourriders going, everyone go all hands on it and friday we're going to deliver,but we leave were as leadership, we stay pretty open handed with thatunless some sort of an external force or a deadline or something have amarket dynamic shifts and we kind of have to happen to it. We'd rather seethe teams bubble that information up from within when they see thoseopportunities and they're still learning and we're still learning itbecause again, we've only been doing it for a couple of years now. I've beenthrowing a lot of curveballs at years. I have a lot of questions that are, Ididn't even have another question list.

But when I'm thinking about theimplications of all these things, one of the things that comes to my mindthat might be difficult, nuanced as marketing operations, especially aroundmarketing automation? Like how are teams approaching some of the moresophisticated hurdles of like your marketing automation streams first?What text act do you use to deliver those kinds of things? And then how howdo teams approach marketing ops do you have a separate marketing ops team oris like do squads kind of take turns and handling marketing apps? You foundthe fly in the ointment with that question I would say sort of yourbaseline level. Like if you always have groups that are only focused oninnovation and not operation, you run the risk of like, oh no, that thingthat's just been running for six months, nobody's been watching it and here'swhat happened. So I would say kind of evergreen marketing Ops is is a callout for us that I would imagine our next iteration of this, we end up withthe team who is dedicated to the chassis while the other teams arededicated to the add ons, if that makes sense. It's kind of the best way I canthink of in my head. So with that being said, we also have different chassis.So I have B two B teams and I have the D. C. Team. So the dtC teams, you know,they're using Claudio is the primary sp, you know, we're using salesforce from a,from a Crm standpoint. And then on the B two B side we have things like partof plug ins and and other things that are going on um as well as you know,sales loft and all kind of other text tax stuff on the sales side. So we havea couple of people that are dedicated, you know, admit like Salesforceadministrators or you know, kind of Martek personnel that sit with us thatactually tends to be a global resource at Ramsey though, they're the ones thatare kind of the most global, so they act more as consultative than they doanything else and they keep the system's going. But we, we are evenlooking at one of my generalist marketers right now who just has a bentto ops and a bent to analytics, who is not necessarily the creative marketingtype that say maybe you me like those of us that are wired a little more thatway, like kind of the campaign driven, what do we want to say? How do we wantthem to feel? He's not wired that way.

So we're actually looking at creatinglike an operation slash analyst position where he can focus more on thechassis and keeping the system's going um, so that the other markers can, canbuild on top of what's there. So marketing ops is one of those things inthe agile model that we have to account for and we haven't necessarilyaccounted for all that well because we're trying to constantly spin up newthings in the squads. Um, that's a great question man, I mean it's reallyhard, especially in an organization, the size of yours, I'm sure yoursalesforce instance is ridiculous and complicated with as many business unitsas you have. Um, and it's become hard to figure out like okay, like is this adevops thing or is this a marketing ops thing, the lines start to get reallyblurry sometimes. Right. I know. Even with my small teams of which my bestdev marketing person, you guys just recently hired um to do C R O of allthings. But he's uh like, I don't know, I felt like my marketing team startedtaking on more and more of what most people would just call devops becausewe were just more heavy in automation and crm management space. But man, Iknow it's a harry harry thing. What have you seen as a result of thisreorganization and you've been there a few years now, you've been able to seea lot of these transitions through, has it been good? Are you are you a big fanof this way of managing people? If so like, well first I'll let you answerthat question. How what do the results been for you? Yeah, I see. There's twoprimary things that have satisfied that, that are very satisfying to me and Ifull transparency. I was not on board at first when this started, I couldn'tsee it, it's just not the way I was used to working um and you know, mygood friends in tech and product and project management, like just givingthem in like give it some time, you know, let's get there. It's going to be,we have to work through it. So let me that's that's the point of clarity.Before I start, I would say the two primary main benefits I've seen is acentralized ownership of the key metrics of the business living withmore than one person and it sounds a...

...little backwards to what I said earlier.But I've genuinely see seen the squads start to really believe that they ownedthe metrics which is a powerful thing when people are coming and going likeespecially in our business because you know we say all the time, we exist forthe people that are outside these walls that if you help with other people getwhat they want, you never have to worry about money. Like we want to servepeople here and so for them to be able to connect the metrics of if we movethis number, this family has this life change that happens outside these wallslike guys we got to move this number like it's important so being able tosee that connection of data to like real world impact and the squad'sowning that together is incredible. And I would say the other benefit thatwe've got from this is just incredibly clearer lines of communication betweenleadership all the way down to what we would call here kind of the maker levelor at the production level where work is actually going out. It's forced usbecause we have those set times of stakeholder times as meeting rhythms,it's, we used to be the type, especially me walk the floor pop upbeside a cube and go do this, you know, And now you just skipped seven kind ofset lines, communication. And somebody here is like why do we do that? Well,it's because someone so said and so by funneling everything into thatstakeholder rhythm that room where it's like this is when you get to speak upor not. It's holding our leadership layer even more accountable one toanother to make sure that we're all bought in, invisible in the work thatwe've said yes to. And more importantly, that means the work we're saying no to,which is a part of the system that you always have to account for it. Like wecan only, we only get so many yeses. So let's use our yes as well every time weget on that. So there's been the two big events, you know, connecting datato the marketplace in a good way and just clear lines of communication, ma'am. It's so good to hear as someonewho's kind of grown up in marketing and digital marketing. And one of thethings I found is just that it's just so complicated. It's sophisticated.There's a lot more complexity to marketing than just running campaignsnow that it's good to see an...

...organization whose scaling it well andI can see your hesitation with it because it seems more complex even andhow you organize teams, you're like usually simple is better, right? And wegravitate towards simple because we usually know if it's simple, thelikelihood that it's going to work the way we expected to is going to work.But at the same time, marketing has been thrown for a loop and howcomplicated it's gotten with all the technology mixed in with, I don't knowthe amount of little tiny pieces that need to be right otherwise one wrongpiece and the whole thing, like a whole campaign could be messed up. Right?That's right. And, and I would tell you dan, you know, uh, you know, one of ourprimary, um, marketplaces that we've served for years and years, years hasalways been the nonprofit space in the church space, you know, with some ofour products And obviously with COVID last year in the pandemic happening.And rightfully so, you know, the doors shuttering and people, people's socialdistancing and that the church has been one of those places that has notnecessarily quote unquote recovery. It certainly hasn't gone back to the wayit was 24 months ago. And I would tell you like having our approach and havingchanged our model and the way we do work shortly before that happened, I'mnot sure we would have been able to pivot as quickly as we were able topivot last year, when that happened with this model compared to the modelthat we were, that we were in 2.5 years ago. So I actually see there's a lot ofprovidence in foresight and benefit that we got out of that and being ableto be agile and quick when market dynamics change that. We might not havebeen afforded the opportunity to be the year before. So kind of last questionat least last official question I might ask more. How how does someone getstarted with this the way you guys have your marketing teams organized likewhat size would you say you need to be in order to start having the approachwith the squads. Can you started with it right away. Do you just start offwith a this is squad one and then once you get a certain size you had anotherone. How do you do it? That's how we did it. We started with minimum we callminimum viable squad journalist, marketer. Writer designer because withour with our CMS that we use, if you...

...have those pieces, you can actuallydeploy landing pages, you can deploy blog articles, you can deploy ads, youcan deploy a lot of emails, you can deploy a lot of the tactical thingsthat you would need to be able to ship in order to drive value for thecustomer value for the business. And so minimum viable squad to me is that it'sgeneralist market or writer designer. I think that if you should do it or notreally depends on if you want a how much trust that you have in thosepeople and just being transparent if you've got good season two people inthose seats who understand the customer understand the business objectives. Um,and and are great at being drivers are wired a certain way. I would say go forit. I would say not everyone that we've used in this model has thrived in thismodel either. And I think that's an important thing to call out is thereare some, uh, and not everywhere in Ramsey uses the model that I'm usingspecifically within digital products either. So that's also important tocall out. And so I think you have to understand the wiring of the personnelas to if the squad model might work. But again, a great place to startexploring these concepts is to read the two books inspired and empowered by thesame author. That's where the squad model is kind of burned out. Once youget an inspired team, you're inspired by the customer, you understand theproblem, you're trying to solve an empowered team is when they've maturedinto being an autonomous group that can run objectives down at will. And sothat's, I would say we're somewhere between the two right now, we have somegroups that are a little more empowered than others. But again, it's the makeupof the squad that it's the trust level. Honestly with that, that senior marketor kind of hybrid seat of like their maturity that they bring to the table,how much business they've done, how much marketing they've done, that's akey factor. But I think if you've got three trustworthy people, you can startthe squad model right away and work on shorter delivery cycles, trying todraft iterative impact in the marketplace instead of 18 monthplanning rhythms, which is kind of what my background was before I got here.You know, you gotta, you gotta always have these forecasts and everythinglike ship the work and see if it has the impact that you thought it has andthen it's so shit more and if it...

...doesn't pivot and so that's the thatthat that agility, that nimbleness that we talked about the beginning, likeit's a really powerful thing to give the team if you want to see them growand really unlock new things that they didn't think they could do. Fantastic.And I will certainly linked to those books in the show notes. But thank youso much for joining me on B2B growth today. Um where can people go to learnmore from you and learn more about Ramsey online. Yeah, just connect withme on linkedin. That's my favorite and only social media channel. I'm on theothers. But anyways, to create a lot of content on there. Like to write aboutleadership in digital marketing and for me personally, uh, you know, faith atwork, I think it's a big part of my life and you can always find out moreat Ramsey by going to Ramsey solutions dot com. And uh if you have anyquestions let me know, we'd love to help you. If there's any way we canpartner together, whether it's personally with your finances or if youwant to look at having uh you know, say an employee benefit added to your HRline up for your team to be able to manage their money better. We'd love tohelp. Fantastic. Thanks again for joining me on GDP Growth. Thanks dan, mm. Mhm At Sweet Fish. We're on a mission tocreate the most helpful content on the internet for every job function andindustry on the planet for the B two B marketing industry. This show is howwe're executing on that mission. If you know a marketing leader that would bean awesome guest for this podcast. Shoot me a text message. Don't call mebecause I don't answer unknown numbers but text me at 4074 and I know 33 to 8,Just shoot me their name may be a link to their linkedin profile and I'd loveto check them out to see if we can get them on the show. Thanks a lot.

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