A Holistic Approach to Demand Generation, with Ken Marshall

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

In this episode Benji talks to Ken Marshall , Chief Growth Officer at RevenueZen

Discussed in this episode: 

  • Systems to turn your website into a powerful tool that generates new sales inquiries
  • A holistic approach to demand generation
  • Honing the why behind your marketing efforts

Conversations from the front lines and marketing. This is be tob growth. I'm happy to welcome Ken Marshall, Chief Growth Officer at revenues en, to be to be growth. Today can honor to have you on the podcast. Man and Ge, it's been a long time coming. Thank you for having a man excited. Yes, linkedin connect friends and now actual real life. Well, virtual still, but maybe one day impersive a friends. It's soon too be for sure. If the universe is brought us together for this, it will bring us together in real life at some point. Glad to have you on the podcast. Revenues en as a company, you guys are focused on be tob demand generation. You're a partner that basically tailor's an approach very specific to the needs of the business. But give me an idea for you can personally. What is your daytoday look like? What are you focused in on right now? Yeah, so some people might be like, what kind of pretentious millennial title is a chief Growth Officer? And I did choose it very intentionally because my day to day you can think about it as sort of the intersection between what a chief marketing officer might do. We're building, you know, better processes and even our own proprietary technology every day. So chief product, had a product and then I've even built part of our sales process and up until two months ago, me and Alex, the CEO, are still selling every single deal ourself. So the intersection of yes, sales, revenue operations, yeah, growth, marketing products. I I do probably a more different types of things than most executives, but that's what I love. So yeah, the variety is always good for someone with a marketing brain. I find myself in constant conversations with even cmos where they just they love the variety and playing with all the parts. So let's pick your brain on some specific...

...things here. You said something to me offline that I thought we should lean into, and really it's going to be the spark for the rest of the conversation, and you said marketing leaders need to be more agnostic about their channels. And give me the genesis of that statement. Why do you want to shout that from a megaphone? Yeah, I mean maybe even three megaphones, but we're probably going to get into this of how I you know, strategy before tactics, but I mean essentially, will have folks and will use Seo, one of our core competencies. As an example, will have people who are coming in where you were talking like sevenzero users a month, and guess how many qualified, you know, sales opportunities they get. Benjie, Goose Egg. Why isn't this that's we'd what. We wrote eight million blog post we hired a team of writers and hate the Opia, and you know what I mean. We're just we're doing all the things right. We look at Google's core algorithms, I'm like, well, have you matched your buyers persona to the stages of somebody's journey with your content assets on the site? Do you have social proof and solutions, landing pages for them to make a buying decision? You know, blank stairs, crickets, and so that's why I always think that the channel and the tactic in the strategy have to align, and I feel like so often people are like, we need to do you know Meta, we need to get in the metaverse because it's the big new thing. Well, if your customers don't like that and think it's weird, then they're likely not going to be there, which means you're going to deploy money for no reason, right just to seem cool. Or to do the next big thing. So we always say, before we even have a pitch for somebody internally, before I build a strategy, it's always why the heck did you even come to me? I'm not that you know Kurt, but why? Why are you here for search or inbound? Why aren't you using paid linkedin ads? If you needed more MQL's yesterday and you're going to burn through all of your cash in the next week and Bessio is not for you, get away right. So, anyway, yeah, that's why, when you ask those questions, what do you get in return? When they are like when you're like well, why are you here? Like, do they have some people come with really solid answers as to why it was finally time...

...to come to you? Can there's a few people who are just yeah, I mean they're really gangster. They know their budget, they know their road map for the channels, they know they're go to market, they have product market fit. They're just really savvy. That's like they're its own bucket of humans. Maybe a quarter. The other are somewhere between. They're in a hurry and they heard it was the cool thing to do and I have no idea why but I need to deploy this series a funding quickly to impress my thoughts is and what I can do with them is really just taking them. Yeah, just digging, asking questions and truly just being a consultant. And if we arrived that this is the right channel for them, then we can talk about what revenues end does, but not before. So, HMM, kind of the split. Yeah, I wonder. Let's go down this road for a second. What do you think are some of the things that lead us to pursue those things out of order? Tactics before strategy? Is it more like, I mean the series a thing is a real, a real problem, like well, you have this fundraising and we have to you know, it's the budget, it's the money in it. That side can easily become we just deploy the tactic to get the bottom line that we have to have anything else that you see as recurring themes where it's like, okay, we've put the cart before the Horse in a sense, and tactic is now driving strategy, which doesn't ever work. Yeah, I think there's urgency around. You have like burn rate, obviously working with Bob's hast airs as companies in general. You're going to you're going to run into that like we're burning a ton of cash. We need to ramp up, like mql's are, you know, sign ups or something. I think that's the obvious one. The other ones that are least are less obvious are, you know, someone will come and they'll say, hey, we want to pay for SEO. We've got a month and a half and we want to spend x amount already. There's a fundamental misunderstanding of what in the inbound Meth Mark, you know, marketing methodology, timelines, expectations, and so that a mismanagement of expectations...

...right there is like one of the education points, like this isn't a onetime check out of your go to market checklist. It is its own big bad hairy long term campaign strategy, just like in, you know, account based marketing campaign. It's not we run a facebook add to a few company titles. That's not a YM. You plan, you know, you send maybe a cupcake for somebody's daughter's birthday. That's you know what I mean. So yeah, I would say the mismatch of expectations and thinking it's a onetime thing. And the second thing that I see is people want to deploy it without the infrastructure. So what I mean is they haven't gotten buy in from the CEO like that. The organization doesn't even want to do in bound. They don't want to be known as as an inbound focus organization. Or the content manager is the one that reached out hoping to get some magic bullet to get there, you know, the CMO from breathing down their neck. But ringings, they didn't understand that you're going to we're going to have to deploy technical changes. So we need the developers, we need the product manager when we're writing thought leadership pieces right for conversion, and so the scope of it sometimes just is a bit much for people who don't yet have the infrastructure and they're not ready for it. So we just advised on how they can move forward. So those are the big three. Yeah, I think those are all real important. The one that I'm thinking of as you're talking as well, is just people that think they have a fully baked point, like customer persona. They know who their target is, but it's like not actually fully baked, like they don't actually really know. They know just a general title or that. You know what I mean, like general size of company and they think that they're gonna deploy some massive inbound strategy. Sally's Got Blue Eyes and she she's forty three. It's like, yeah, but what are her what does she go to bed like, fearing at night that you can help alleviate the next day with that checklist. Yeah, that's a party. That's a customer for SNA. So totally very serpents. Okay. So what in your mind this this is going to take us to strategy, but has to be...

...mapped before we can start having any sort of channel conversation, any sort of inbound de managin conversation. What what does that map look like to Ken? I'll say that the most crucial step usually actually isn't. For our clients. They tend to be more upmarket, are mid market these days. So product market fit and their target customer, their target personas, tends to be a bit more deal than the number one thing. So I'll look directly into the camera. Yeah, it's the mapping between the platform and the product features to a pain point that that person has, their target customer, those personas individually, and then the next step to a solution that their feature provides. It's those three things in tandem. Almost never do our customers actually have that mapped out, and that is the seed to any good in bound strategy is aligning that person's needs to a feature, to the solution and how it solves that feature, not just the cool X Y Z widget and what it does, but how it alleviates that the very human centered pain that they have in their organization, in their job. So needs for sure solution. What are the questions that you're asking to start on earth this and get these three things actually laid out to where you can start to see success? Yeah, it's it's kind of like an iterative process as far as how we do it internally, will start out by just having them mind map all of those things. So we'll just say, how do people speak about your product? How do you speak about it internally? Do you know of any like you know market research that you have that either supports or doesn't support that? Does the product manager speak differently about marketing? will go through and we'll do our own research and pull out some insights, like from competitors and say, Hey, you have the exact same business model, but why is their marketing messaging like this and they seem to have a larger organization than you or more, and then we'll sort of just continue to like synthesize that back and forth as far as that data, and then eventually the through line starts to come into focus. Of like we thought we were this kind of tool and the technology is but the...

...sales, the SDR that we're selling to or the VP of sales, actually this is what they want. And so if we merge those two with this is our unique selling proposition, but this is how they speak about it. That's your search strategy. Is that overlap? So I can tell when you're talking the strategy to you just makes you tick, doesn't it? Like you love that aspects the game. It is the game yet, but it is how you make money. Yes, and it just brings so much clarity, like the amount of clarity that someone who's been pulling out their hair going like how does this going to actually work in real life? Providing the strategy that's going to do that and attaching these three together made it makes makes your processing and yeah, then obviously drives the bottom line, which is fantastic. Okay, so this leads us right into inbound demand. Jin once you have that foundation, you're naturally in a place where social selling, permission based selling, whatever you want to call it, it's happening. Explain how you think about generating in bound in the channels that are really necessary to start building this. Yeah, I mean so permission to be selling, shout out to Seth Goden change anybody's life. If you haven't read that or you don't get it, but I think about I don't only think about the inbound like to the website, which is why I love that you mentioned linkedin social selling. You can do organic on just about any channel, Cora. Really the goal is understanding, like we're like I sort of briefly mentioned. Here's where our audience hangs out. Here's The authority that I have, or expertise or knowledge, doesn't matter to me. You can let it. You could even be an entertaining person, although I think giving value based on education that will help them is better. You could even just be entertaining and essentially taking that and saying, now, how can I leverage that or where can I leverage that to meet those people where they're at an yet either entertain them, educate them or essentially offer them something regularly that they want. And it's just as simple. As...

...that, over time, is providing them the thing that they want to the people who, you know, you can help in the way that you can help them. And so we like, you know, website. Obviously, we utilize Linkedin, we utilize what I guess they would be business directories like clutch. Is something that I actively and it's every SASS company needs to do this. I mean we have a checklist of like the top fifteen on our site. But essentially leveraging the authority of these properties to point back to you and as a person doing it and bound can work for the company or person. But talking about social selling, you're basically the company and you are you're sort of mirroring the company's expertise or vice versa, and the mind of your customers. So yeah, I'm not back to the channel being a you know, agnostic two channels. Those just work for us. It's where I feel most comfortable and I like owning all of our assets, which is why our website is the hub for everything, but it certainly doesn't have to be. But those are the channels for be to be especially that I would start thinking about. Is Your website on point? Is Your CEO, CMO cheap marketing, our product officer on Linkedin and then we can talk about the you know, the twitters, the facebook's the course, but I mean if those two aren't an order, you know you're not doing it right in my opinion. So okay. So there's going to be some that are going to be like yeah, I'm I'm active on Linkedin Ken, but there's not the strategy piece behind it. Give me, like, what this is practically looked like for you, maybe some examples of how this plays itself out. Yeah, I mean, the number one thing to do on linked then again is I'm sorry for all the strs out there hustling working hard, but if I'm the VP of marketing and I'm trying to build out my marketing strategy, we need to start at the sea level and the founder in the CEO or the most compelling. For obvious reasons, I don't have my data beside me, but it's not where thirty percent of our revenue comes from. So I'll leave it at that. Alex's profile. And so the first thing is just I mean, instead of like this is what I like to do on the weekends and here's...

...where I went to school in my about page, think about. Back to what we just talked about. WHO's my target customer? What keeps them up at night? What do I do that removes them? You know that pain allows them to go to sleep, and that should be the focus of your profile. Do you have a checklist that makes their life easier? Did you give a talk? You know, I gave a talk at inbound. It's right in my profile. They can go see it. That's positioning me as an authority. Or I you know, a free guide for SASS COMPANIES AND SEO. Go get the checklist, like go make your life easier for free. Right. I talked about instead of you know, about myself in my about page. The first four, you know, things that you read in the first sentence are the number one pains that I hear on every sales call. I just made a list of them and they're right at the top. Like, I don't know how to help with these a hundred things, but these four that you care about or what I care about. Right. So optimizing the profile. That's what we do, that's what we preach and that's what we help client with our clients with. The second thing I would say is just get very used to spending ten to fifteen minutes a day in the morning with a cup of coffee, just finding things that interest you, reaching out to a few people and leaving a heart filled comment. People want to make it more complicated than that, but those relationships will develop over time and it's a it's a positive sort of feedback loop or a flywheel. The more people you comment on, the more we'll see, especially if they're influential. People will see your comments and interact with you, and that's how relationships are made. On linkedin, at least ones that are organic, not spamming people a hundred times in their inbox. And lastly, just think when we think about thought leadership, that word are. That phrase means a lot of things to everyone, but what I think about is what are you uniquely qualified to talk about? So for me, executing seo strategies is what I'm good at. Some people might have wrote a book on Seo. Some people might not know a look about Seo, but they have a huge heart for nonprofits, right, and so just spotlighting a nonprofit of the week that they find and present their audience to donate to some whatever you can do, if you have case studies, if you have something interesting that you just did may be raised...

...around a funding. You gave a talk. Those are the kind are. Yeah, checklist how to style. If you're somebody like can who likes to give strategy advice, that's what you post. Trying to become viral or a star. That's fine, but it doesn't often result in leads and demand. Leads and demand come from educating and solving problems. So that's my those are if I had to bucket into the three things that somebody can do tomorrow, just do that for seven months and then come tell me how your business has changed. So, hey everybody, Benjie here as a member of the sweet fish team. I wanted to take a second and cheer something that makes us insanely more efficient. Our team uses lead Iq. For those that are in sales, or you're in Salesox, let me give you context. What once took us four hours to gather contact data now just takes one. That's seventy five percent more efficient. We are so much quicker withoutbound prospecting and organizing our campaigns is so much easier than before. I highly suggest that you check out lead Iq as well. You can find them at lead iqcom. That's L ADIQCOM. All right, let's jump back into the show. Leads and demand come from educating and solving problems. So that's my those are if I had to bucket into the three things that somebody can do tomorrow, just do that for seven months and then come tell me how your business has changed. So yeah, on the personal side, I think you just gave a gold mind of how to interact. On linkedin, I want to take us to how you think of the website and the content over there as a hub, because I think that's another really crucial point and something we could hone in on a bit. People have different ways of doing that. To me, your linkedin strategy like just go rewind what can just said and just listen to that a couple times and that's that's like, yeah, doable tomorrow. Right, you could implement that and start going with that as a fantastic first step. It...

...might have a little bit of a higher barrier to entry when we start talking about our websites as these hugs. Yeah, but it's also extremely valuable and important to start taking into account what kind of resources were creating and where people can interact with us and see the expertise we have. So talk about that a bit and how you think through the website as a hub. Sure, and I try to keep things like superactionable, super high level and free so that people don't have to deploy a lot of effort or capital until they feel comfortable. And if you do, then you know, that's for another conversation where we can get into the weeds. But on the website, back to I guess sort of always go back to that foundational who is this person? You know what pains do they have features and solutions. So if we're talking about like the SEO content strategy in a box, I'll talk about each sort of separately. From an SEO standpoint. If I have no if I have no tools and I have no expertise, the first thing that people want to do is start reading articles on how to optimize two hundred and ten factors from your SEO performance. I say let's not do that. Number One. Is Your website indexed? Like can if you type it in right now. You know what I mean. And if it's not, go talk to developer. Maybe you have a check box done in word press, but like you can do that in your browser right now. So if all of your pages show up congratulations. Like that. Step one. You know. Number two you can go and there's a simple checklist that Brian Dean has called on page Seo. Brian Dean Backlinko on page SEO. I won't get into it because that's after the content is produced. But some people are like where can I go to make sure I do all the little tweaks and things that will get me, you know, that extra nine or ten steps on my seo stuff. But from there I would say, instead of being obsessed with keyword like volumes and competitiveness and things like that, I would just start out by saying, okay, now that I've identify the needs that this person has and the solutions that we offer, brainstorm, you know, essentially for each feature, brainstorm...

...like twenty phrases and then maybe another fifteen or twenty four what the company is not does. So the features are what it does. The platform what it offers. What is it? Are you a sales enablement platform? You know that instinctively in your heart. You don't need to do keyword research to know what your platform is and if you do, you're not ready for dbell marketing. You need to go back to your go to market strategy and your messaging strategy. So if you are, that's the beginning of how you can begin to, you know, essentially think about your content strategy and how to optimize a site. But as far as like the down and dirty, quored research, that step one. So you take that list, you type each of those into Google, look at the top five results, put them in a sheet and just those. That's your competitive gap analysis. What pieces of content do they have? What kind of resources do they have? What kind of solutions do they talk about? How do they talk about their solutions? So I always say like keep it super simple, and that's the competitive gap analysis. And your two outputs are either what are they doing that we need to emulate because it's working well, or this is where they're at position in the market where nothing like them. So let's actually stray away from these and here's where we can carve our niche despite that. And the last aspect of sort of the SEO game is user experience. It's huge for Google these days and other search engines, and to keep it super simple. When you pull up your website on your phone, does it take more than like four seconds to load? If it does, you got to go tell your developer or read about how to optimize it, but it's super simple. Does it look the same on its mobile device as it does on its, you know, on your desktop? And then can everyone find all of your content? Like, if those things are taken care of, you're off to the races. And then on the content side, which is sort of my favorite. I like to think about it as everyone's aware of like the buyers journey or buyers decision making stages. Right, we've got awareness. Somebody's going to make a decision, they're going to make a purchase or you know, and then they're going to return or, you know, loyalty or whatever. And if you take...

...every sort of I'm trying to think of the easiest way to say this, but the thing that you have to do is say, when somebody's going to make a decision about me, what do they have to learn at first? If they have no idea, what my solution is? What if they have to educate tomorrow, it might be educate right. Ours might be the B Tob Seo strategy overview. It's not even a technical guide. It's just like, literally, this is what this is, is how to communicate the value exactly your CEO. On the lower stages it's like you need to talk about your product. What are the features? Now you get to be nerdy. Now you get to say what you differentiates you in the market. Then they're sort of we need to make a decision around the solutions that those features offer. That's back to the solutions we mapped out and all of this you're creating content for. Right then it's social proof, case studies, testimonials, you know, but industry verticals you serve. And finally, where are they going to convert? Are they going to download something? Are they going to sign up? Is there a start? Now, you know, get free trial page, whatever. But if you just think about it like that and create those assets without any strategy in mind of like, I don't know how to optimize this, but if it's live at least when somebody comes to the site, whether we handspoon them to it, they'll convert better. But it's also going to be working in the background as you learn how to optimize it. So a little long winded, but that was a lot of stuff condensed in a short period of time. So No, I think that's it's absolutely excellent and it's when the content piece specifically because I could ask a ton of followup questions here. But having those assets created in your content, it has a natural call to action that flows to the next part of essentially, we all know it's not a just an easy funnel that's just this perfect thing, but it has a bit of a built in call to action to the next step. That is so useful in your content. If you're thinking about taking someone logically through all of the steps and educating them all the way through conversion, it's going to give you an eat a very easy way to continue to call people to the next part your funnel. So can I love that, I...

...think the most over, how do I say this? The thing I've heard the most can when it comes to inbound is how am I going to actually map this to revenue objectives? Like early on? That's a common fear. If we go heavy into content, if I go heavy on Linkedin and we don't see those numbers, especially to those that are in organizations that hyper focus on KPI's, they're going. I I have to bear this out to my boss. We have to be able to like show. So what is your answer, because I know you're getting that push back from time to time, of course it. Yeah, truly depends on how sophisticated their existing attribution is, and so we don't even start campaigns before having analytics and attribution tracking stile. Then, in fact, we set that up for people who don't have it. But I would say to the person starting out and you have none of that information, no historical data, you're going to you're going to be wrong, but being wrong is going to hinder you from getting started if you focus too much on projections before starting, when you have zero data and you have no campaigns prior. So what we tell those folks is to all of your assets on the beginning stages are basically sales enablement until Google picks them up, you know what I mean, and their conversion Rey optimization before they start working for you from an Seo and content. That's why I said if you map them to the funnel and you send somebody there, they see your linked in and go to your site, which they will, they'll at least get to pick and choose their own adventure to get that confidence to when they're ready to buy and then we can start to make those sort of quantitative decisions. So for New People, do the things in the right order that I just mentioned before you start worrying about too close of projections. But for folks that have maybe they've done some seo or they have a bit of traffic because they're an older, more mature company, you're essentially, if you want to do a good projection, you just have to start saying, well, if we've gotten five conversions and this many mpls and they've converted, you know, with...

...this percentage to sales qualified leads, and we've built x amount of posts and x amount of links. Right, it's just many. It's just manipulating variables. We know that this link was weighted like this because you know it led to x amount of traffic increase for this post and this many people converted from this post. So the tracking that you need something like search console or a keyword tracker. That way you can say this keyword grouping led to this page of content, because it's a one to one usually for a content ranking. That led to this amount of traffic which, if you have proper conversion tracking set up, that led to this many conversions and if that's plugged into your crm, this page led to this conversion in this customer. Over time so it's not actually hard. I think SEO skirt around it. The challenge isn't tracking it, Benjie, it's it's getting people to understand that. You know the timelines for Seo, particularly for people who haven't started, and I hate the whole it takes six months to a year. It takes how long it's going to take given your budget, infrastructure and strategy. And really we should be held accountable to performance. But it's iterative and it's like, after two months, if we've increased leads by x and that's not good enough for you, well, why isn't that? You know, why is that? Are you struggling internally? Is Cash an issue or you know? Do you not know how bad you were doing before? So we do have that conversation and we do set goals, but projections are difficult with search because obviously things change all the time. So I would tell people just stay on top of your stay on top of your numbers and make sure your attribution styled and to make sure that, yeah, within a reasonable sixt eighth month period of time at least, your kpis are trending towards being a return on your investment. So that's the smart thing to do, or also give up to early before it starts working. So Kay, I don't give up too early and continue to iterate and you're going to see success. And what's great is you can constantly be iterating, which is a key part to this entire strategy. Okay, I know you've worked with numbers of B TOB SASS marketing departments. So I want it finish up our conversation with this. Knowing what you know now and...

...knowing you're talking to a room full of B tob marketers, what would be your call to action coming out of this conversation? What would you invite us to reconsider as we leave, and what would be maybe the mindset shift that Ken is is calling us towards? Can I can? I do too. You can give us too. You get two billboards today, okay, the number one, three megaphones right right to billboards. I'm just I'm taking everything, but no, and it's I say this all the time. Them people are so I think engineers lend themselves to being perfectionists to their own detriment and production, because indexing takes time and Google to even for your content, even ship. You can't. I think people think they don't want to put out poor quality. But you can still be efficient. So see what happens if you double your production, find a way to be more efficient, to get things produced both on Linkedin or whatever other platform or channel utilize and your site. Tell me what happens. I think you it'll force you into being efficient and you'll get past that analysis process of well, we're not posting or not creating these assets because they're not good enough yet. Yeah, well, the year it's taken you, you could have had really good data or a lads coming in from that. So just, you know, stop being weird, get out of your own way and in find a way to in double, double production, I'll say it double production. The second thing, and we didn't get some super dive into this, but is around just basically the intent of the searcher and what the piece of content is for. I see a lot of companies they're like, I want to rank for sales software and that they created a splash page, a sales page for it, and I'm like, just do me a favorite, pull at your phone. I'll have people do this. And I was like what do you see there? Like a bunch of resources and blog post I was like, okay, what is it? What does that mean? People want to learn something and you're asking them to come home with you when you should have just introduced yourself, and that's then what they were having to drink. Like that's the difference, right, if we're using that analogy and so understanding, like what is this the intention behind this search for Seo, and why are we making this content, and how is it going to help them make a buying decision, whether it's us...

...or someone else? That's how you make money. Fantastic, man. Can I could talk to you for an hour, probably multiple hours, on this topic specifically, but I think this is a actionable episode and it hits people in multiple different places, because we're always going to be iterating on these things, asking more questions about this. If you know, I know if you're listening to this podcast, you're a learner and you're wanting to continue to get better and help your organization, and so can, you're helping us do that and we really appreciate it. They're going to be those that want to stay connected with you. Clearly, you're all about linkedin. That's how you and I first got connected, and this is part of strategy for you. But any other ways resources to point us. Two ways to stay connected. Yeah, always on Linkedin. Come say hi, I don't bite, and then if you go on the site used to look over it or you type anything and you'll see that we offer strategy road maps. Not only is it a really dope tool that I built to help that process, but it is free and, like I said, we we don't do scopes until we've given you a consultation, and the cool thing about that is they're still a lot. I think you know, most of them are going to be like with me, we do. That's still with me, and so I what I want to do is essentially tell people here's what you need to go do in life, and if that aligns with us, then it's a win win. If not, then people talk about them. It's really cool. So it's like a a nice little leg gen for us. Even if people they like, look what I got, I got a road map for free, and I like yeah, it's great, go tell your friends. So yeah, that's the best way. Man. Appreciate it. Man, this has been fantastic. Again, can is the chief growth officer at revenues in and if you go to our show notes, you're going to see links to the website, to Ken's Linkedin, and that's an easy way to connect. And then also want to say if you're listening to this and we have yet to connect on Linkedin, I would love to chat with you about marketing business life over there, and so never hesitate to reach out. If this is your first time listening and you haven't yet subscribed to the show, want to make sure you're...

...following so you never miss an episode and keep doing work that matters can thank you so much for stopping by and being part of be to be growth today. Thanks for having a man and subscribe to Benjie. He's a fun guy, so appreciate it. We're always excited to have conversations with leaders on the front lines of marketing. If there's a marketing director or a chief marketing officer that you think we need to have on the show, reach out. Email me, ben dot block at Sweet Fish Mediacom. I look forward to hearing from you.

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