B2B Growth: Your Daily B2B Marketing Podcast
B2B Growth: Your Daily B2B Marketing Podcast

Episode 1745 · 3 weeks ago

Start Thinking About Go-To-Market as a Product, with Sangram Vajre

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

In this replay episode that originally aired in March 2021, Dan Sanchez interviews Sangram Vajre, co-founder of Terminus, host of the #FlipMyFunnel podcast, & author of ABM is B2B. They discuss…

  • Why ABM isn’t a better form of marketing, it’s a different form
  • How organizations can view go-to-market as a product, not a strategy
  • 4 questions Sangram’s new book will answer about ABM in customer service

Conversations from the front lines of marketing. This is B two B growth. Welcome back to be to be growth. I'm Dan Sanchez with sweet fish media and today I'm joined by San Graham vagery, who is the CO founder of terminus and the author of a B M, is b two B. San Graham, thanks so much for joining me on the show today. Dan excited to be here. I'm glad we're able to make it happen absolutely as everybody listening to this knows, I did a deep dive into account based marketing through the month of February, going from as a B two C marketer transitioning to be to be. It's been a fun journey. I've learned a lot about account based marketing and I've certainly learned that San Graham is the man when it comes to account based marketing. In fact, when I first started on the journey and asked for book recommendations, a B M is B two B was by far the most recommended book. That people are like, Oh, have you checked out this book? Have you checked out Sam Graham's book? If you heard from San Graham, you were definitely the most frequently mentioned person when it came to getting into this topic of account based marketing, which I think has been downyel a while, but it's definitely picked up over the last five or six years. Would termine us, and you have a new book coming out and that's what we're gonna be talking about in this podcast recording today. So, Sand Graham, I'd like to even start, before jumping into the book, talking a little bit about like account based marketing. Like you started terminus five, six years ago and naturally, like the category, the whole meaning behind the word has evolved over time. So like, where has it come and since the time you've actually founded the company? What? Two things? One, you'll have to give me the list of all the people who dropped my name so I can send them all ten bucks every time they did that. That that that's really what's happening there. But I appreciate and I love the fact that you actually went deep and read as many books and as many different ideas that are around it, because that's going to make this conversation super rich for me. The A B M is B TWOB was the second book and, quite frankly, I remember this conversation with my publisher. They're like, let me get this straight. You want to write a book that has two acronyms in the title, which is typically it has never ever happened before. And what the heck are those? Like? What is a B M and what is BTB? And I'm like, if you don't know, then you don't need to read the book. I just know this is the audience and if if they don't know a B M or they haven't heard the word, the letters a B M, then they don't need to read the book. This is not for them. So I was very intentional about making sure that it is as provocative as it can be in order for people to just get a get a shot in the arm and say, well, is that really or is it not? And the title itself came from the Sales Team, and I don't think most people understand that part is it came from the sales team. And as I'm writing that, my third one like that, I think a lot of people start coming up with the title first and...

...then to write the book. I typically try to write the book and then come up with the title. And the reason is you learn a lot about what's going on and you have to let your ego go aside and actually just be again a student off it. So that's how I became the author of the second book on a b m. s bb was just I just became a student of a b m. and then you answer you a question more directly on what has changed. I felt like that's literally the evolution in the book earlier when we wrote the A B M accounts marketing for dummies. That valley is published my first book. I honestly just thought it's a better mouse trap, it's a better acquisition. That the whole flip. My funnel movement was about, Hey, look, why go after Indian everybody? Why not go after the right accounts if you know you can serve them the best, and that's really was my thesis for the First Book. That's what of the thesis for Launching Terminus. And what's interesting is over the years I would constantly see people running all kinds of campaign that were very different than acquisition, which is what led me to like, wait a minute, what are they running? And really, when we even deeper, it seemed like, Whoa, marketers are now running pipeline velocity campaigns. That was a very big and new idea and probably still a very big and new idea for a lot of people because marketers typically stop at the acquisition because that's what their goal is. But modern organizations would want marketers to go all the way to the sales part, all the way to closing the deals. So I saw a pipeline velocity become a big deal, meaning if you have deals in your pipe, you should be working on it as a matter of Dan. I would I would literally go on record and say that in every organization right now listening to this, if they stop acquisition whenever this goes launched, let's just say it gets you know, this podcast is launched in March, April. If you stop acquisition completely, chances are you might say, oh no, then we're not going to hit our numbers. You actually will still hit the numbers if you focus on your pipeline. As a matter of fact, you might actually break the record and hit better numbers at the end of the year from a from a revenue perspective, if you only focused on the pipeline. And the reason it's quite simple. Those accounts that are in your pipeline are the ones they have raised their hands and said we're gonna buy from you or your competitor. So marketing not working and helping the sales team to close those accounts is the greatest tragedy of marketing, quite frankly, very dramatically so. So as I started seeing modern organizations focus on pipeline velocity and even further, as I have in the Book Thompson Reuters, a big, massive company, and others, they started focusing on expansion deals. They're like, look, we got more than one product, we already know these accounts. These are our customers, they love us and we want to make sure that we can now upset across sell I like to call observing them with new services that we have. But they don't know they just know us as company X, but we do eive other...

...things. So they started pretty expansion. So that's really what led me to this understanding and feeling like man, this is bigger than acquisition, this is bigger than marketing automation. So when I interviewed and had a lot of sales people are part of the process, I remember every time everybody coming in that's just better marketing, that's just B two B that I mean people. People would say that flippantly and I started to make a note of it and I'm like that's what people are saying, and that became the title of the book. So my whole journey thesis from being just an acquisition only story drawn into more of like the way marketing should work and sales should work. Hey Man, I'm drinking the cool head. Honestly, after doing the deep dive, that was one of the things I was trying to figure out, is, is this just a better form of marketing? And my conclusion after doing it was like no, this is very different, because you can't. You can't do this in B two c. like this doesn't work in B two C in most situations. Right, there's probably some obscure situations where you can still do this, but in most cases, like this is very much a B two B strategy. That and maybe B two G, right, because there's a lot of similarities there, but it's kind of like this is a very particular thing. There's a good definition of it, there's a good approach to it, there's a way you can measure it as differently than what you're doing with other marketing activities. It's very well defined. I even got into a long conversation with a lot of people two weeks ago on actually picking apart demand Gen as a as a category. I was like demand Gen is actually harder to define. It's very loosey Goosey on its definition. I'd almost make an argument that demand Gen as a category is much more closely to just good marketing. A B M is very specific. You can literally do all your normal marketing stuff and do a B M as this whole separate activity. I do have a question for you. Mentioned if somebody stopped doing acquisition that they would be able to do better in their pipeline. Do you mean that they would just reallocate funds to doing the marketing and advertising to those who are in their pipeline, or just dropping it all together? And do you mean that they would like focus, like have more focus for the pipeline? What do you mean? But honestly challenge everybody to literally say, let me let me put it this way. When I used to go out and speak like not now virtually it's kind of you're doing a lot of it. It's hard to get super audience participation on it. But I will typically speak at events and say raise your hand. If you send a newsletter and almost every person in the you know, three thousand people, they raise their hand. I'm like great, now, keep your hand raised. If nobody, if the people you're sending to, and if you say, let's say you stop sending your newsletter next week or next month, you will have somebody pick up the phone or email you back and saying hey, why didn't you send your newsletter? I was waiting for it. Raise your hand if that actually ever happened to anybody. None. None. And I'm like, well, that's the challenge. That's the problem in nutshell, that we're doing what we feel is right. We're not doing what we what the customer feels is right. So if we take out eight percent of the activities that actually marking does, that is demand...

Gen or awareness. They actually do nothing. They really don't drive revenue, they really don't create business. It goes back to the staff from Forrester or, let's than one person of the leads turning to customers. Is just a fact. So, with that as the backdrop of it, my challenge for organization is that, honestly, if you recognize that eighty personal stuff you do don't really drive business value or drive revenue, then why not just drop it now? Don't do it, and instead of that you will now have all this time and all these resources and all these budgetary opportunities that you have and actually focus on the fifty deals that are in pipeline that are supposed to close it the next three quarters. Go ask any salesperson what are your top deals you're working on? They don't need to look at any stinking crm now. They know it in their head, like hey, here are my top ten deals. That's gonna help me close my quota and actually make revenue and that's how I put food on the table from my family. When you know that and if the sale, if the marketing team can now create unscalable experiences for those fifty account my bet is on that that you're can close a lot of those fifty accounts. The problem is we try to scale everything, we try to dilute everything, we try to create things that nobody really wants and then wonder what we need more budget to do different things. But but I will challenge. Instead of asking for more, how about cut it out? Stop creating e books that nobody's reading, stop creating social posts that actually get zero likes or favorites or engagement on it, stop sending newsletters every week or whatever. If, if nobody if you never if you didn't send that, if nobody's gonna cry, then what will happen for a month or two months? If you just stop doing that, and I promised, people will find more time, more budget, more resources, and the sales team will love you and that's how you actually drive business impact. Okay, there's a lot of things you said there that I was like yeah, absolutely, I'm doing it. I was spending like a cent up our budget just targeting everybody, or at least the segments that I was carving out on facebook and on Google, very typical legion type approach. And after doing the series, I'm like, Nope, now, at least through we have a smaller budget. So linkedin ads becomes kind of like the best place where I can actually just target the exact companies who want to target. I'm like, I'm dropping my budget on that and, of course, retargeting once I can get them from Linkedin to our website. But I know I have control over a little bit more control over which accounts are actually seeing it. I'm like, I'm pretty much shifting all my ad budget that way. It just makes sense. A B M just makes sense. If I would have been able to do this in B two C and could only target the people who had the means, and we're in somewhat in the market for what I could sell, then I would have only targeted them. But there's no way to do that in BC, but in B Two b you can know what you just said. I wish it should be an auto play for every person to listen every morning as they drive or get on the call, get their coffee on. Is like, if you're in a B two B, it's a privilege right now, because people,...

...we always have the other person as a better, like greener yard. Right like that, just a feeling that every Oh, I wish I wasn't b two see it's more sexy. We could do really cool things. We can just run a bunch of email campaigns. You know, if you're in B two C, you have absolutely no idea how and who you can serve all the time. Like there's just so much pressure on driving revenue immediately on a regular basis. Sometimes it works on something, doesn't you create all these brand campaigns hoping that things would happen, but you're not not necessary. As an example, I drive a jeep gladiator Um, so people who are in jeeps. They will be like, oh, that's really cool, but who? How did how did they target me? How did they get me? Like it was ten years ago, when I was like almost fifteen years ago, when I was in University of Alabama and I would see jeep jeeps all over the place and I'm like I want to run own a jeep one day, like that just became a dream and I saw ads and I saw people and all that stuff and I went in Boudjee gladiator. Well, how in the hell? WHO GETS CREDIT FOR IT IN BBC? Like who will get credit for that? Like it's it's really hard. But in B two B you know the five hundred accounts that you can serve the best. You know who are the accounts that you can actually make people get promoted in their organization if you serve them better. You know what pain points they have and how many people are in the decision making process. So if you know all that, you have a privilege and I think people need to take responsibility for it. Absolutely and honestly. You've got to take responsibility for the marketing budget. You've been entrusted to actually spend better, but we're how'm a fan boy. You are clearly a fan of a B M. You've written two books on it. So when we know where a B Ms Bim, I'd love to learn from you, Sangraham, a little bit more about where you think the whole category is going. Things are changing. Viewpoints on a B M is changing, technology is changing. A lot of interesting things going on, even with cookies and all those kinds of technological things changing, Um, and categories expanding. It's getting bigger, people are getting better at it. With all these things going and you've been in the category for so long now, like, where do you see it going and tell me a little bit about like where your book fits into it. So I'd love to learn about what you're writing, where you see it going. So give me, give me a glimpse of the future. Well, well, here we go. Um, you know, in order to see the future, we always have to know where we came from, right. So it's it's important to recognize that. As we go and look at the evolution of it, we we see that email was a big part of what marketing did and and it still is doing, and that was a big category at one point and then it just became a part of what marketers do. You. Then you look at marketing automation. That became a big part of what marketers do and everybody now use this marketing automation. But these are all technologies. Ultimately, the reason a B M became so phenomenally big compared to any of these two things, where these two became a subset of a B M, is because, as a stro...

...rategy, it's not a tool. Like anybody who comes and says to me how we use terminus and I'm doing a B M. I'm like, no, you're not. You're doing a b m to the best ability that terminus allows you to do. But if you're not doing direct mail and not using pfl or Alice or any of these folks, you're not creating high tech and high touch experiences, if you're not using something like outlaw outreach or sales loft and creating those cadences, you're you're you don't have your sales team baked into it. So No, you're not doing a B M because you use one software, you you do a B M and you actually have a holistic strategy around an account that you're going after. So so that's why a B M is so much more bigger in value and valuation and all that stuff. But it still took me six years. Than six years to convince the analyst world to put it put us on a wave, six years for forrester to create an a B M wave. That that they didn't create. And until they create a B M like like a wave for your product, it is actually not a true of category because when you create a wave you actually become an enterprise class solution. So now, finally, when they created last year, where a B M has not become a something, that that's actually where enterprises, where our F fees are needed. We're companies saying we've got to do this, we are the best on top to right quadrant and let's have them come in. So finally, after six years. So it takes a long time. Is a big lesson for me, and that like when you think about creating categories. What's now I see, when I see the future and what I'm writing on right now, is a new north star, because all of that email marketing automation was about helping marketers get their job done easier, maybe faster, um in a in a tactical way. A B M elevated that to a strategy that brought marketing and sales together and said that we are one team. We need to work together, we gotta have the same metrics, the same target accounts and all the team framework that we talked about in the book. But then I think where I feel we're going now to go to market. It's like, ultimately, you know, the new North Star for organizations group understand a B M is actually what does our go to market process meaning? How do I bring not only marketing and sales but also customers success together? That becomes your high performing go to market revenue team, and that's what I'm writing right now about. Is that how organizations go from an organization that is focused on leads to then focus on accounts to now focus on customers. In another way, said, it could be how you go from ideation to transition to execution. A different way, even from the framework perspective, to think about how do you go from a problem market fit to a product market fit to a platform market fit? And I'm throwing all these phrases because I want people to recognize that as an organization evolves, they will have to start thinking about it in business context and business terms, and businesses don't always say the same things that people in the execution levels say. So you...

...right now, as a marketing or sales leader, maybe thinking about leads, accounts and customers. That's great, but if you ask your cl what is he talking about? What is she talking about? They're not talking about leads, accounts and customers, they're talking about hey, if you're in the transition phase, we are in the growth phase, we're in the execution phase. Like that's those that's the vocabulary they're using. So ultimately, where I think the market is moving is figuring out what is our go to market process, strategy are and and almost thinking about go to market as a product itself. Hey, everybody logan with sweet fish here. If you've been listening to the show for a while, you know we're big proponents of putting out original, organic content on Linkedin, but one thing that's always been a struggle for a team like ours is to easily track the reach of that linkedin content. That's why I was really excited when I heard about shield the other day from a connection on, you guessed it, linked in. Since our team started using shield, I've loved of how it's led US easily track and analyze the performance of our linkedin content without having to manually log it ourselves. It automatically creates reports and generates some dashboards that are incredibly useful to see things like what content has been performing the best and what days of the week are we getting the most engagement and our average views pro post. I highly suggest you guys check out this tool if you're putting out content on Linkedin, and if you're not, you should be. It's been a game changer for us. If you go to shield APP DOT AI and check out the ten day free trial, you can even use our Promo Code B to be growth to get a discount. Again. That's shield APP DOT AI and that Promo Code is be, the number to be growth. All one word. All right, let's get back to the show. So how do you product tize that? I mean it's a go to market strategies, the whole value creation kind of like the whole process that you're bringing to market in order to deliver value. At least that's how I understand go to market. How do you actually productize that? You said at the end, and I was like wait, what? Yeah, yeah, well, I mean that's where where where things are going? Like we we are going to create a go to market cloud as a company. But just like a B M, it's a strategy. So we will not have the monopoly on it, just like we don't have a monopoly and a b M. Anybody but can go and create a bunch of a B M platforms and different pieces to it, because there are different pieces to it. But a B M was very much constricted to marketing and a lot of the things that create a very in marketing. So if you think about let's just take our company as an example, terminus, we made four different acquisitions. We were an ads company when we started. Then we acquired bright funnel so that we can help companies look at analytics from all the advertising they do. Then we acquired bramble chat so we can create personalized experiences for people on the website. Then we acquired Barfaire so we can give them intent data around what's happening and how do they look at the next accounts they need to go...

...after. If you really take a step back and think about that, makes no sense. If I said, hey, a company is acquiring a chat platform and an ad platform and an analytics platform, like it doesn't make sense. But it makes sense when you pull that together in a strategy, saying well, we're helping you do your a, b m strategy. Similarly, I feel, when you think about go to market, it is a full on strategy. So and a go to market process. You would say, I want to create have marketing solutions, customer solutions and sales solution and all of them need to work together in order for us to have one view around it, have one go to market scorecard. I'll give you a very specific example, Dan. That's happening in our organization that I believe is starting to happen in more and more modern organizations. Every Tuesday we have a team meeting, an executive meeting, and Mallory Matory Lee, who runs our revenue operations, she runs that meeting. She opens that meeting. She opens with a go to market scorecard and says that, folks, here's a r here's where we are on the revenue, here's where are when the expansion revenue, here we are on the gross margins and gross profits. She literally puts the go to market score card and then the conversation begins and then we get into priorities from last entire year. That is exactly every single executive meeting has started. So I think marketers need to recognize that what's really happening at the sea level. At the sea level they're talking about business outcomes in terms. So I feel marketing is gonna if they want to uplevel the conversation. Go to market is really where they need to get in. It's like, well, whatever we do, how does that impact our business? To move from point to point B and I think that's a whole strategy and that will turn into a product one day. Man, that makes so much sense. I had somebody asked me I had posted that I on Linkedin recently that I read every book I could find on account based marketing. Spend eleven books and Oh my God that's a lot. I didn't realize there were so many. Eleven books. Some of them are small and obscure and written by people that I'd never heard before. I had to go dive deep and find them all and I include some books that are probably more B two B in general but have a good section on a B M, like Um Samantha Stones Book unleashed possible has a great a B M section, but it's more of a B two B book. I put James's book in there because it has h a B M applications for sure, that we use all the time. Um, so e loving different books. There's probably more I could add eventually, and eventually your new book will be on there. But somebody asked me like Oh, he was asking for a book recommendation. I'm like sure, like give me like where you're at and like what flavor, what kind of thing you're looking for, and since some books are better at different points than others. He's like, well, I'd really like to learn how to bridge, make a bridge with account based marketing, between marketing, sales and customer service. I was like, Oh, no one's written that book yet, but I told them I have a feeling sand gram might be writing that book, so that book might be coming out soon. It's funny you say that then, because here's here's the most fascinating thing. Like with all of my books, I'm huge on...

...research. I'm really really I really become a student again, like that's how it's not an altruistic, egoistic we have. Well, I had a point of view and I'm gonna go with it. It's really I have a feeling, but I want to get the right people to get it. So I interviewed like Brian Halligan, CEO of hub spot, manny, you know, see if outreach, you know, Sydney sells, like like nick matter, CEF gain side, like bunch of CEOS, bunch of vcs with billion dollar portfolios, bunch of CMOS, bunch of C R os, bunch of analysts and bunch of a B M R s. So six different perspectives as I started writing this, this book. And what's interesting is that every CEO I asked them who owns? Go to market? And that's the same question I asked every single one of these six different six different leaders. What's interesting is every CEO said, outside of the vision and culture, which obviously the CEO owns, ultimately go to market is the one thing that they absolutely no matter if there are a public company CEO like Brian Halligan, who's like for the last thirty years, that's what I owned, all the way to a startup company CEO saying well, if that, if I don't know that, what do I own? What's interesting is the CMOS thought, well, the CR owns it. When you go to an analyst, they think that maybe the CMOS and because they think about it as just product launches. So it's really interesting that all these key people who are part of the good market process, that machinery that takes dreams of founders into reality in the marketplace for what customers benefit from. There is a gap there and there is that gap is really where we're trying to create the understanding of like, well, it's a process. I think Brian Halligan said it the best. He said good market, how do you define it? He said, well, you know, a lot of people go on a weekend trip and try to figure out what their good market strategy is going to be and come back and say this is it. What he realized in fourteen years of building a company? Two hundred million a r R. Right now we just icolis like a hundred thousand customers or something like that now. And he said the one thing that he realized is that go to market is itself. Think about it like a product, meaning think about that it's going to iterate, it's going to change, it's going to hook up with different things, it's going to have different milestones and it's a constant evolution of things. And it was really interesting, like he didn't use the word strategy at all. He said it's not a strategy. Vision is you have a vision, but it's not a strategy, it's a process, it's a product. So it was really interesting as I'm going through all of these interviews that Oh my God, it's so much more deeper and there are so many different ideas that people have and I hope that this book distills it out. It's interesting. Actually reminds me a lot of something I was teaching on yesterday. I taught a small college class and interesting, I'm a marketer, but I was teaching this small class on finance and I was I was running them through the like as they were taking their entrepreneurship marriage. So I'm like, there's one thing you need to understand in finance. It's kind of like, you know the P M l. You need to be able to take your is this idea and validate it financially like and get good at...

...doing this in your head. Like Watch Shark tank. They're like constantly asking questions to figure out if they have financial viable models right. But you need to essentially stop looking at it as the product and look at it as the system of delivering the product. Right. You need us not look at what they make, but the system for making it. Is that kind of what you mean by a go to market is the not the product, not that, not what you're delivering, but the system for delivering it. You are absolutely right. I think that you think about that is your product, that's what you work on as the entrepreneur. Don't get caught up in making widgets. Yeah, you you make the system for making widgets and that's your real goal. That's what you have to think about. Absolutely I think that is that is spot on. That that is it is. It is an act of process. It is a total process. We're creating this connected experiences all over the place. But as a CEO, you actually have to come up with that and think about it or challenge your team to do it, and you have all these teams to execute on it. But, Gosh, no CEO talks about leads and accounts and like that. That's not how they talk about it. So there is a level of abstraction there. And and how do you bridge the gap of like, well, you're talking about this is the business phase we are in and this is how we are going to execute on that business phase and and how we go through it? I think that's the gap that I hope this, uh, this book bridges, and you would say the CEO is the chief owner of the go to market. Absolutely hand it out. I was surprised and that's why it's fun to be a student and go back and ask, because I wouldn't have said that. Honestly, I would have said maybe a C R O or in some cases, many times people would say, well, it's the marketing product launches, or maybe it's the sales revenue number. But now go to market, as we would redefine it for the world, because it's just like a B m. It was an old term but it didn't really have all the belts and whistles for people to really understand. We hope that's what go to market is. It's an old term that people have a lot of baggage with and I hope we would be able to clean it up, Polish it up and actually put it back on the Mantel and say, you know what, this is really what it really means and this is why and how we go about it. It's really interesting. It's making me think a lot because I think just before this conversation I would have said what you would have said like what are the chief responsibilities of CEO? And I would have been like culture and vision. That's why I even you know, the current CEO of Microsoft is turning around Microsoft because he's so focused on vision and culture and Microsoft right, I don't think no one, no one doubts that. But at the same time someone's got to be focused on how everything integrates to deliver the most value to the customer, and there's not a single person other than the CEO who can do it, because it touches everything from finance to marketing and sales and everything in between. So you're right, it has to be the CEO and I never really considered that. I mean always considered an entrepreneur who's building it. But even for a larger company with all these complexities, it's gonna have to be the CEO. and Bob Iger. Remember reading his biography recently and it makes more sense now. I'm like, Oh, that's why he was the one really heading up these big deals with Pixar, even coming up with how do we even organized Disney plus as a new business model for us? He was...

...kind of the one putting all the big puzzle pieces together. Of course he invited all the voices in and facilitated that conversation. But it's a big reason why Disney's continue to be relevant as culture has changed so much, is because he was paying attention to the go to market. So and and and there's no, you're right there. They are the one who actually are thinking about it, waking up about it. They may not be the one who are executing on it, obviously, but gosh, like you know, how do you make deals happen? How do you do acquisition? Do you open up market in India, or do you actually launch a new product? Like there are ideas that come in, but you order the decision maker on it or you have to push the organization to move in a certain direction, to go and so it's a it's a fascinating thing, uh, and you're really already point. It is what brings the high performing go to market teams, which is the marketing, sales and customer success together. Um, and it is a strategy much like a B M, but it up levels itself to a C level executive team as opposed to just VP level team. So that's some good insight. Uh. One thing I thought about as we were talking about a B M entering the customer service arena. Is there any insights you can give on like what that looks like in general as opposed to the way bt B companies have done customer service before? Be Interested in hearing like a few few points on what it looks like with account based marketing in mind. Yeah, well, it's interesting. I'll give you sneak peek into it because, just like last book where we introduced, well, every book right the first book we introduced the flip my funnel as a framework, the last books to be introduced the team framework around target engage activity measure. So in this book we can also introduce another framework because to me, I mean I'm a very simple mind, like I need a framework so I can see it and there's freedom within framework so people can can use it the way they want and there's a maturity curve around it to see where they land on it, so you can self assess yourself where you are and then figure out where you want to go. So all that is say is is a framework that answers these four questions and I want to leave you with that part of it because any more than that I will do a disservice to my pr team and UH, and the publisher team beyond it. But here are the four questions that this this book will answer, and especially on the service side of the House. So think about this. The first question it will answer is the WHO question. WHO SHOULD BE MARKET TOO? That is a very esoteric question. Almost every person is asking it and it touches on the A B M and levels of Tam I, C P, intent all that stuff. But answering the question who should be market too, and it will evolve depending upon the stage of your organization, is the second question it will answer is what do you need to operate effectively? This is where the revenue operations really becomes the Gold Star, if you will right, because they are the one who are the brains and are able to tell what is effective, not sor not not efficiency, but effectiveness of your business model. The third question this this book will answer is like when can we scale our business? I'm sure then you get this...

...question all the time from James and others. Is like well, what do we how are we going to scale this thing? And a lot of times organizations are either in by sales driven because that's how the business is in the beginning. Then they bring the marketing and sales together and then have marketing, sales and customer success together. So it becomes an exercise of prioritization, if you will. And then the fourth question it will answer is where can we grow the most? Where can we grow the most? This is where you will start answering the question. Well, should we go from one product to multiproduct? Should we go from sales direct sales to having channels? Should we go from just being in North America to be in emia? So you can start figuring out what do you grow the most? So answering the the WHO, the what, the when, the where question, like who should be market? What do you need to operate effectively? When can we scale our business and where can we grow the most? Literally, is going to be the thesis for the for the book, and that's really how the good market maturity curve and everything that we will put together in it and try to hopefully make comp like simple for a lot of people who are thinking about go to market. Yeah, I love the questions and it makes me think that there are more overarching questions that kind of guide the whole conversation around the book and I imagine that last question in particular is powerful because a team might decide that instead of spending a lot of time and effort going after new accounts, just expanding our existing accounts and that becomes a kind of a customer service account management thing is actually the best place to grow revenue right now. Not that you stop account acquisition, you keep going, but you're not going to launch a whole new campaign around it right now. So that's very interesting. Man, you've teased me and I'm like, man, when's this book going to come out? And I'm sure the audience is thinking now like yes, Andra, when's this book got to come out? When can we expect to pre order or get to get a copy of this thing? Yeah, well, if we'll come out in August, Um, well, I don't know when we can actually put a prior link and stuff like that, but you'll be one of the first people do not fantastic. Well, when it comes out, I will certainly be posting it to Linkedin and probably mentioning it in this show. Sandroum, thank you so much for joining us today. I've learned a ton and I'm gonna be thinking a lot about the role of the CEO now and probably be having lots of conversations with James about to be fun. That's awesome. D thank you so much for about the book when it comes out. Is there a place they can subscribe to or connect with you in order to find out when it comes well, just if if people want to connect on and just drop me a linkedin message. I haven't really put on a website or web page yet on it. This is literally the first conversation of all conversations I'm having on it since I've been like heads down on it. B Two B growth is brought to you by the team at sweet fish media. Here at sweet fish we produce podcasts for some of the most innovative brands in the world and we help them turn those podcasts into micro videos, linkedin content, blog posts and more. We're on a mission to produce every leader's favorite show. Want more information, visit sweet fish media DOT com.

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