The Future of Paid/Owned/Earned Media for B2B w/Chris Walker

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

In this episode, Dan Sanchez talks with Chris Walker at Refine Labs about the state of paid, owned, and earned media across B2B companies as well as how to properly leverage each to grow.

What you'll learn:

  1. Why you shouldn't pursue earned media and focus on owned instead.
  2. How to properly leverage paid with content and creative.
  3. Where to start with owned media.
  4. How you can know when you're ready to add the next owned media channel.

Yeah, welcome back to be, to be growth. I'm dan Sanchez with sweet fish media and today I'm here with chris walker who is the ceo of refined labs chris, welcome to the show dan, great to be on here, man, looking forward to diving in. This is a topic that I think is going to be really interesting. Absolutely. As part of this deep dive that we're kicking off into owned media for B two B marketing, I wanted to set the table with chris walker here today to kind of talk about the current state of the whole mix of paid media, earned media and of course owned media in order to kind of get some context what we're talking about as far as owned media for B two B marketing today. So to kind of kick it off with my first question chris, I wanted to talk about If you feel like there's an imbalance between the three paid owned and earned mix with most companies in B two B today. So I think maybe first it's good to just take a step back. So everyone kind of, I feel like the definitions are, are kind of self explanatory but would love to define them for people just so people have them so paid pretty straightforward, you're paying for impressions or distribution or something there owned, you're running it through your own channels. I consider own channels to be a linkedin channel, a website, a podcast etcetera, you own it, Some people will say, oh it's linked in, so linkedin owns that, you don't, I think that argument is dumb link, you own your linkedin channel and then lastly earned. Which would be somebody sees something cool that you did and then they either share it promoted or otherwise put it on their platform that includes your content message etcetera. And so now we have those laid out. I would say that most companies um at least the ones that I interact with do have an imbalance here. And where do you feel like the imbalance leans towards? I think the companies spend um an excessive amount of money on paid programs to create vanity metrics to appease internal stakeholders and investors. And we've run a lot of paid right? So like this is coming from one that runs a lot of paid but I go into a lot especially larger scale companies and go in and tell them to spend less because it's just wasteful. Absolutely. And I know you've spent a lot of time talking on your show. It's like why paid because it's the most easily track of All right you can optimize those U. T. M. Tracking links to optimize from first touch all the way to revenue. But of course not all those pan out the same. They don't always convert the same. It's the most easily trackable in the current state of B. Two B measurement which I think is incredibly flawed. Where do you feel like they're under leveraged. Do you think you'd be owned or earned. I actually think that owned is probably the most under leveraged. I think that earned companies pretend to do earned by hiring a pr firm and trying to get there, get into Forbes or get their Ceo on some news show or put out press releases about their last series c raise or something like you can call that earned media. It technically is but I don't think that's gonna, I don't...

...think that's making a huge difference about whether your buyers consider your category in your company and things like that. So if you exclude that then they're under leveraged and both owned and earned. If you were to say like an ideal company in the future or like what they should be heading towards soft costs included. What do you feel like the breakup probably should be, should it be split one third, one third, one third or do you feel like there is a line in the sand, you can draw somewhere there. If we're talking from like budget resource mindshare, I think that the if you separate it out and I want to make this definition very clear because the reason that most companies use paid is two run lead gen, if you adjusted your strategy there and you use paid to distribute, then you have a very different set of activities that you could do with paid that I think would be much more effective. We've actually demonstrated that at About 50 companies now that it can drive better results. And so if you think about the split, I don't know the exact numbers, but I'd say it's somewhere between 60, 40, 40, 60 paid and owned. And my feeling is that through the execution of paid and owned you get turned and so that's the way that I look at it. That's the way that we've done it here and re find labs. We've had no effort, no time, nothing. Trying to pitch people to have me on their podcast or trying to pitch Forbes about why they should write an article about us trying to pitch a conference about why I should be the keynote speaker there but because we execute well on owned all those things come to us and so that's the way that I think companies should look at it crush owned. Do I execute paid well, get turned So I spend zero time going after earns just let earn to come to you. You can do it if you want. I just think it's well efficiency and I think that the mindset of if we execute owned well then we get earned forces you to do owned well, which is the most important. So when you going back, you said like a 60-40 between paid and owned do you or the otherwise right somewhere and somewhere in that range and most people over indexing on paid, you would say cut back on some of that paid maybe go hire some more content marketers to beef up owned or would you have a different approach to hire content marketers to beef up paid, Right? So when when you when you run paid like buying the ad is only one part of the equation, it's another huge misunderstanding inside of B two B. If you're running ECM google ads, like it's 2000 and nine. Yeah, all you need to do is just by the media, but where people actually consume content and were things that advertising channels that are actually very effective right now, like facebook instagram linkedin et cetera. It's not only buying the ad, it's about putting something in front of the people when once you buy the ad that they like that they consume that they engage with, that moves them forward in the buying process that helps them. And so the big mistake that companies make unpaid B2B companies generally is that they only think it's about buying the ad. I just need to target my decision makers. I need to buy the ad And that's it. As opposed to I need to put something in there as well. And that's why that's where the balance comes and we push back on...

...companies a lot, whether there are customers or not to think about their investment level for every dollar they spend on media, they need to spend 50 cents to a dollar on content and creative And most companies will put together literally $250,000 a month budget for paid social Facebook Instagram linked in and they'll spend $250,000 on media and they'll spend $5,000 on creative and content and no wonder this doesn't work. I don't even know if we're allowed to swear on here, but I'm feeling good. So I'm gonna do it. Think again. So with a massive emphasis on owned. One thing that I've always notice with your content is you spend very little time like developing and like a what would be a traditionally owned media property. I had to go back and try to like split up owned because there's so many different types of owned. You know, you have your social media, I almost considered semi owned, right? Because Lincoln kind of owns it, You kind of own it. There's an algorithm in between you and your followers sometimes depending on how well you aren't reaching them. Even with podcasting, there's still an entity between you, so you don't really own it. And even with an email is even when you don't really own it, deliver ability. Gmail, right? This argument breaks down if you actually go into the details like you own them all and they're not, my view is they're not semi owned, like you own your website, right? But what what does that do you with? Nothing else. I mean, I think to me the difference would be just in the fact that you're not dependent on one company, right? If Apple decides, they don't like you or decides they changed the way they deliver podcast or maybe they put an algorithm in it. So it's not delivering every single episode. It's a little bit different with email or text message or even direct mail because you can change vendors with it, you can kind of play with it now. But what really matters is the impact that you make while the channel works. Right, If apple podcast shut down tomorrow, all the people that listen to our podcast would be looking for somewhere else to listen to it and they would go and find it on Youtube. They would find it on Spotify, they would find it on the micro stuff that we post on linkedin or we would create another one. And so the thing that people need to think about is you need to get to a level where people seek out your content. That's the problem. You're relying on an algorithm to deliver your stuff and then once the algorithm goes away, people don't want it. You need to get to a place where people seek out your content and when you do that, you're not vulnerable to the platform and algorithm changing. Yeah, I absolutely agree that you can build demand with them. So I feel like as much as you can build demand with linkedin or podcasting, you could build demand with email. It's just another totally you could build demand with any of these things totally. My my view, however, is that people pay way less attention to emails. I'll give people some really easy examples here I do this a lot. Imagine think about whether or not you'd be listening to me on this podcast two years later, if my main strategy was to run S EO and send emails, nobody would know refined labs, we wouldn't have the talent that works here. We wouldn't have the customer...

...list in the logo list that we do. You wouldn't be listening to our content. It's because we put content in the places where you actually are and where you actually pay attention. People are not paying attention anymore enough and email and otherwise it gets conflated a lot because in e commerce or super low products like low value product lead companies, you need to use email because you can't afford the CAC. But when it comes down to it, if you're an enterprise B2B and your, your main strategy is gate content, put people through emails and just basically rely on email. It is a losing strategy from 2011. So what would you say about media companies like the morning brewer, the hustle that hubspot just acquired. I know, I mean I listen to your podcast, it's fantastic. I listen to many other podcast. I also read the hustle most almost every morning I've tried a few different ones. The hustle just delivers the kind of content I want to read for some reason? And I'm usually reading it? I think a lot of other people are, would you consider that different than what you're talking about with email? I'm not sure I understand the question, like, like clearly some companies are winning with it. I mean, otherwise hubspot wouldn't have paid all the money, they just paid for the hustle. So some people are doing it. Well, would you say that's just that's those are exceptions totally, because the hustle is not trying to have a back end sales pitch for their software product afterwards. B two B companies can't do it because they don't actually provide value. They're just focused on driving you into their funnel. That's the reason why it doesn't work. Publishers have a bunch of success with it because they're only focus is that the people consume the email and that they like it. But when you move that into a B2B company, B2B companies are not thinking about how do I make this valuable for this person? They're thinking about how do I get them to become an SQL? And that's why the content sucks and that's why email doesn't work. And so companies, I encourage companies to think about restructuring their organizations so that they can create a space where marketers can think like publishers, so it's less about the medium really and more about the intent behind the content, are you trying to build an audience? Are you trying to convert them? If you're trying to build an audience then? I mean, some channels are gonna be better than others because some are going to be on their way out, so we're gonna be on the way in. You want to ride the ones that are, you know, you're on the, you know, the beginning of the swell with the wave. Yeah, when it comes down to it, like, if you came to me and you said you only can pick one would, and this is like the way that I'm communicating here, like you can only pick one Lincoln or email, it's linked in hands down. And so I know that other people can run other channels, but the thing that people do, if you exclude the hustle and some of the major ones that are crushing emails, you can find the same thing, You can compare that to joe Rogan's podcast. Right? So if you look at it more in the masses than the at the outliers, then, like, you need to be able to put that, you need to be able to put that stuff in the channels, you know, and you need to be able to put them into places where you can get the highest impact at that time, And the highest impact channels, like it's clear in for a B2B company organic...

...right now podcasts and linked in are the number one opportunities. And so what companies do instead is they spend all their effort on email and then they don't succeed in the places that have the best opportunities, You know, it's funny, I've been hearing it said maybe for over a decade now that companies need to be media companies. I feel like people have been banging that drum for a long time. I can't find an original reference to it. Maybe joe Pelosi, Pelosi would be one of those guys that's been saying that for a long time, but I feel like hardly anybody does this, right? And most people at best have a blog, right? Where they're talking about maybe some content related, just not directly to their product. They're talking more generally, but very few do. So I've seen a few. You had one on your show recently. I think the recorded future has their own little separate website where they're grading journalistic type content for the industry. Would you think That's a smart strategy for for a variety of companies? Maybe most B2B companies to build a separate media entity. I'm not sure what to call that. It's different than just doing media in a blog. I don't think that you necessarily need to make it separate. Is the thing, I think that you need to think like I'll go back to why companies can't do this, right? So it's obvious that if you thought like a publisher and you and then you created content that was associated with your brand. But the content was built on helping people with zero intent about they're buying your product. People will pretend that they do, but they don't, if you did that, then you would have a much more successful business long term. The reason that companies can't do it is because the people that would be responsible for architect in those programs are responsible for hitting short term metrics and they get pulled into all of the garbage self centered company stuff so they can't succeed on a podcast. And so if you wanted this to be successful in the reason why software companies go out and acquire these companies is because they can't do it themselves. But if you if you did like it's not that you can't, it's that you set yourself up in a position where it would always fail if you did. And so if you change the structure and you said we're going to take for $100 million air, our SAAS company, We're going to take four people, we're gonna put them out over here and all they're responsible for is creating information that our buyers love on that team. We're gonna have somebody that's a social expert, just content distribution expert. We're going to have an actual expert who has been our customer before and our customers trust them, We're going to have a creative person that can take the content and package it and move it, put it into different places and we're gonna have somebody that's going to completely architect the strategy and kind of pull all the strings, figure out the topics, all those things. We're gonna take those four people and we're gonna let that run for two years and we're not going to scrutinize them against leeds. We're not going to scrutinize them against attribution. We're going to look at what our buyers say about the content. We're gonna look at how many people are subscribing and then when they, when we use gong on our sales, cause we're going to track how many people mention our podcast within the first five minutes of the sales call.

We're going to do those types of things and then we're gonna be able to actually set this thing up to work. And so that that's the recommendation. Like I have no idea why a company wouldn't do that. Especially at the scale that I'm talking about 100 millionaire are, that's a drop in the bucket. In terms of your overall, Overall, you got 50 marketers running around sending emails and doing gated content and stuff. You can't put four over here and do something helpful for your buyer. So that's what I would recommend if you think about it, whether it's separate or together. I actually would prefer it to be together. Right? So like state of dementia and podcast refined labs together, I think it's more clear what's going on. I think as long as you can have a clear division between church and state, so to speak, in the level of intent so that people aren't reached. So that's, you know, Mark performance marketers or salespeople are not reaching in to your podcast. Try to pull out leads. Makes a lot of sense, but you're not saying that it's impossible to do. It's just that in the current state of most companies, the way they're incentivized is never going to allow that to fly, but they could restructure to do it. It's clearly possible, right? There's there's plenty of companies that have done it recorded future. Um, the record is one example drift had a really good thing going for a while, um, as well. So there are examples of companies that have been able to do this and the key is having a marketing leader that really knows how to execute it and a Ceo that's really bought in and then you set up a structure whether you need to put the team on the side because that's the only way that it will succeed or you have alignment between sales ceo and marketing that this is a strategic priority that you're going to do because it's truly effective, everyone buys in either way of those situations can work. But what I found interacting with hundreds of companies is that for a majority, the only way that it actually has a shot of working is by creating a separate team and you're a much bigger fan of creating content where people are so they can consume it, we're on the platform is already on rather than creating a content hub, more like the record. I mean it's, I mean Gary v has been doing it for a long time, like he, he spends hardly any time promoting his Gary Vaynerchuk dot com, he's usually being consumed on every other platform out there. You would say that's the better route than having a home base. Just think about it. Right? So just think about if I took my linkedin video, which I can pull it up right now, probably. So my linkedin video from yesterday Which has gotten 14,000 views on a five minute video. And so, and the reason that I got 14,000 views, it's because it's because the videos in the feed so that someone sees it, they can watch it and they can continue on natively. And if I took that exact same video and I put a picture and then I said, hey, click off onto chris walker dot com So you can watch this four minute video instead of 14,000 people watching it. Probably 14 people would and that's the reason that we don't push people off social social is built for native consumption. That's what people want to do, remove friction every other company because they're obsessed with clicks and google analytics and all the all the old stuff...

...outdated stuff in my view that marketers have been trained to do. They try and push people onto their own website and they miss out on all the opportunity. Would you say there's a certain set of owned media sites that you would go after? I usually think of it as in terms of like a short form site and a long form site linkedin podcasting. Do you recommend any other ones? Are there certain things you're looking for when companies are setting up their own media for the first time that you may correct that you recommend? So if you exclude website from this equation then, um, I'm looking for like the system that we've created, I call it, it's like an event fly. We also, you have an event. The event becomes a podcast. The content from the event becomes linked in content and then you can also put it on Youtube. So you kind of get three or four channels in one. Um, and so that's the like the base case you're doing all the same, the same amount of work. You're just putting on a couple of other channels. But generally I recommend for people and that's, that's taking us probably a year from when we started on linked in to actually get to that type of cadence. But the recommendation is a process that I call stacking growth, which means that you need to get one channel to work first before you work on the next five. And so what companies again, we'll do, we'll check the box on, I'm going to have an instagram channel and we gonna post to R 14 followers and we're gonna take our linkedin company page and we're gonna post to R 200 followers and most of them are employees and we're gonna post a podcast once every two months that nobody listens to and we're gonna send automated emails to people. You get what I'm saying, right? And so they spread out their focus that none of them actually work and then they just kind of like spin their wheels aren't stuff. And so the recommendation is figure out your number one, which for us, it was linked in Number one. Get that thing to actually drive results, results being customers and revenue. Not, I got a lot of likes, get that to work and then figure out what you need to stack on top of it. So if there was a logical sequence, like what we did was linked in and then we went to events and then the events moved added into a podcast, the podcast added into Youtube and next we're going to go into Tiktok. That's like the process. It's interesting with Tiktok tiktok and twitter, even though I feel like twitter is making a little bit of a comeback and there's more marketers there. Are you just forcing more marketers being there in the future. I'm tapping around on twitter. However, again, looking back to like the comparison made between linked in an email. If the, if the conversation is tiktok or twitter, I'm choosing Tiktok every day because the upside is just way higher. Twitter has been around for 15 years. It's like there's, there's too much content, not enough eyeballs, it's just a, it's a mess. And so I would just like given limited resources and you have to make choices. A lot of people would choose to do both and they would do both mediocre to below average. I'm gonna pick one. I'm gonna try and do it above average to the best when I approach a channel, whether it's podcaster linked in my goal was how do I become the best For B- two B marketing on that channel? Um and I think that's a mindset that other...

...people should take. How do you know, you've kind of reached a point where you're ready to branch off to the next thing, Is it to the point where you're generating revenue for it, maybe a couple quarters in a row, Like where do you, where do you draw the line for that when you start to produce enough revenue and profit? Well in my business profit and venture funded companies revenue and acceptable customer acquisition costs where you produce enough revenue, where your, where your company is giving you more resources to make this go faster and then when you have the opportunity to make it go faster, you need to make good choices about where you go from there. Need to get to keep the snowball rolling, keep delivery more and more results, keep getting more and more budget, keep expanding channels and innovating. All right. And it seems like the way you approach most owned media channels in the way you've been able to build audiences mainly through thought leadership content, would you say it's like a mix of something else or is it mainly just you leading with your point of view? Um of course it's more, I don't know, I feel like I think about like the strategic narrative, I think about the brand, there's a lot of different elements to it, would you say it's mostly thought leadership pushed driving your content for it? So I've been coming up with a new term on this one just because I think thought leadership is stale and misinterpreted and the execution of it is generally poor. And so I'm calling it category marketing, which is what we're doing. I'm not trying to sell anything. I'm trying to get people to understand that the ideas that we believe in and how the world is changing matters, how buyers are changing matters and if they don't, if they want to get left behind, they can keep doing the things that they're doing. If they want to be on the forefront, get an edge on competitors continuously get further and further ahead in terms of marketing. Sophistication and their competitive set then they should consider moving on this now. And that's what, that's the way that I look at it? I think the thought leadership typically becomes a top of the funnel. Let's get someone into a webinar so we can move them into our funnel. Um and that's not my intent at all with this content or information, Another big part of it that I don't think I don't see thought leadership getting executed a lot is that the people that listen to my content can get enormous amounts of value without paying us a cent. They can go and take away. We give away a lot of our best stuff we give away frameworks and processes that most people would never find or develop on their own and can go and execute. We have cmos that listen to listen to my stuff on linkedin and go and get way better results for their business for free while they also waste thousands, tens of thousands of dollars with agencies that suck. So there's a big point in that, which is that if they can't listen to your free content and go and do something with it, then you also have an issue man. So circling back to paid media and how that influences your own media. So you're running a lot of these ideas, your your category marketing on paid media and you're trying to influence people. You're trying to give them ideas that are actionable that are useful for them,...

...but you're not using it to point to any any other property. Are you just, are you running video ads on linkedin and just letting the idea set for itself with no call to action. So in our paid mixes a little bit more complex than what you laid forward there. So we, for up until this point, just for the listeners to get up into this point, we've been talking about own channels, typically organic distribution and now we're moving into paid and so in the paid mix, some of the organic content that we're producing, category marketing is going to go in there. We're also going to have more like a full funnel mix. So lower final things that more focus on the product tested, case studies and social proof features and features and value propositions, things like that. So the whole set, the reason that we do it is because we guarantee distribution to people in organic, you don't have guaranteed distribution. Whoever is in your audience is going to see it and then it gets amplified with organic reach and you don't have any real control over who's saying that. And so the advantage on paid is I can say, okay, I'm going out, my target buyer is CFOs and VP of finance at companies that are 200 to 2000 employees that are texas and so I'm gonna go and take that target? I'm gonna make that, I'm gonna make that audience and then I'm going to guarantee the delivery of this information, whether it's a video, a picture etcetera, To all of those people. And I'm going on Facebook and Instagram and pay one cent To give a CFO this message and I'm linked in. I'm gonna pay four cents to give a CFO this message. And that's the way that I think about paid media. But what other people do as they say, I'm going to go and take, I'm gonna build the exact same audience. And then I'm going to think nothing about the content of the creative and I'm gonna optimize to collect email addresses and I'm going to try and have my SDRs call them or run them through market animation. And so people don't, people don't have a good enough understanding of respect for how different those strategies are. They just look at it oh, it's paid media. Those two strategies are incredibly different from a result standpoint, from an intense standpoint, from an operational like requirements standpoint. And so that's really the difference of what we're doing. But the key on paid is that I'm guaranteeing delivery to people that I want and an organic, it's free, but you don't have as much control over who sees it. So does it just become more of a brand play like them being educated by the content that you're paying to syndicate. But they're becoming familiar with you, your brand name is becoming synonymous with the ideas, it's like a tv commercial, This is a modern television commercial and B2B except instead of on television where you can't target people. I can give it to exactly who I want. And then I create my television commercial or I build my billboard if it's a picture and then I put it in the channel and I'm not looking when someone watched the television commercial very railway. Like they see a ford F 1 50 commercial, they're not going to their phone and saying, I want to quote this F 1 50 right now, it's the same thing. And so that's what we're doing for software, running television commercials were making...

...billboards. We're targeting appropriately. We're giving it to people where people see them. It's really not that complicated. And so because companies are so focused on attribution, on measuring things on direct response lead gen, let's give our SDR is a bunch of emails and phone numbers to pound because they're focused on that stuff. They're paid mix turns into that stuff. And so I'm just, I'm offering an alternative that makes way more sense and drives better results. What I'm trying to understand is like, what is the creative actually look like? Are you just creatively presenting the product? I think you're from what I've seen before. Your you're taking essentially what you're putting organically out there and just running paid media behind it. Yeah. So organic, like the videos that you see in Arlington would be one example of what we could do that might be like 15% of the mix, right? There's other ones that are gonna be way more like product oriented, there's gonna be some that are more heavy design or animations or those things. And so the, from a creative standpoint, the point is that you have a ton of flexibility in what you can do when you get away from the lead gen mindset companies can't do any of the stuff that I'm talking about when they're in legion mode. And so once you, if you can get yourself out of that, you can think about, I'm gonna take that video of our ceo doing a fireside chat with one of our best customers and I'm gonna take that and then I'm gonna run it to all the other companies that are just like that customer. And then do you retarget based on percentage watched or you just kind of run like a mix of ads that have target varying intense down the funnel to one audience because we don't think about it like a funnel, we don't run retargeting like we're selling a $60 hat on instagram ads. So like, yes, we have re targeting audiences but not like I'm not Trying to think about someone buying $100,000 year software tool in a three step funnel on linkedin is just not the way that it works because all those funnels end up on End up in one place, get a demo ad legion And when you end up, get a demo at legion, it doesn't matter whether that person watched the 50, of the video before they're gonna go in there and you're gonna win almost none of them because it doesn't align with how buyers buy from a direct response intense standpoint. And so what we've, we've run tests on this before I can eventually try and pull pull data and show this for people in a large scale. But it doesn't matter whether you had three steps in your funnel or one step if you, if the ending point is, hey, get a demo ad, come fill up my landing page, the conversion rates are gonna be the same. The conversion rates are really bad, customer acquisition cost is very high. So we don't do it that way. Okay, so you have a mix mix of adds, some are speaking more to the product, some more of the broader idea. Um, and you're just getting them a mix of them out in front of the audience. Yeah. And over time, if you thought about this in a different way where you actually invest appropriately and creative and content, then you could create a different video for your target market every day and you could put that on linkedin and facebook where they spend time every day and you could communicate ideas that right now you...

...wait for someone to get in a demo with your sales team to communicate. And so you don't reach most of the market. And so instead of doing that, you could give that to everybody in the market to teach them things to start internal conversations and word of mouth and they would eventually start to see the problems that you're talking about in their business and be more likely and open to solving them and when they do that they're gonna be more likely to do it with you. And so that is about the easiest way that I can explain it, wow. So it's been fun to have you on the show and clarify a bunch of things after, I think after you watch somebody on all these platforms for a while, you know, I think I see most of your linkedin posts, I've listened to most of the podcast, but after a while you have to wonder about a lot of the in between, right? There's all these in between things, which to me is like sometimes that's why a book is helpful of course, because it can fill in those gaps, but at the same time I won't deny that it's working. I mean we've we've even asked B two B marketers like who is the top influencer pain too and your name, you and Dave Gearhart are probably, I can't see if there's like a winner between them and we asked 100 B two B marketers who is coming up towards the top people influencing B two B marketers today. So Without an email list, without a site that you're pulling people back to, you certainly have the attention of the B- two B marketing world. So it's been fun to have you on the show, kind of get some of these details. Is there anything else you would share that we haven't covered for B two B marketers specifically around owned media? Were they getting stuck? How can they fix it? The number one place that B two B companies get stuck on owned media is because their attribution models set it up to fail. And so we've created something very easy. We've tested it on our business, we're rolling it out on our customers. We have data from several saAS companies about how it works, which is what I would consider self reported attribution, otherwise known as common sense attribution. And so what we do is we just add a field on the form where the revenue comes from and says, how did you hear about us? And then the people tell you, and it's fascinating what they say and what they write, and it gives credit to all of the things that we're talking about. So if you believe in these things, if you believe in running the podcast on posting content on Lincoln that people love and creating events that people love not to go and get leads, then you could do all of these things. If you had attribution set up in that way. So that some of the examples that we get is we get people that say I heard about you from dan Sanchez in peak community. Dave Gerhardt told me about your podcast, I started listening to it and then I saw one of your employees on linkedin. I've been following them for a while and now I'm here on your website converting and then attribution software says, oh this lead came from organic search and so if you adjust your attribution model in a way that makes it that I think reflects common sense, then you can show all how much these things work. And it and it's...

...funny as well because the companies that run heavy on paid and are obsessed with attribution and habit, they only look at the attribution on the leads, They don't look at the attribution on when people became customers and they don't look at how much it costs them to get those customers. And so it's just funny Consistently get fascinated by how companies pretend that they are data driven and then they just never analyzed the data because if they do it, I've done it with 50 companies and the data is always shows that the main things that companies spend money on don't work where there you go chris thank you so much for joining me on B two B growth where can people connect with you online. I know your papa on linkedin and uh on the podcast of course, but you mentioned youtube and I didn't even know youtube was becoming a thing for you. Yeah, we're getting youtube going, it's under refined labs, not chris walker, so feel free to check it out there. Um we are working on adopt like basically up to this point it's been take the video version of the podcast and put it on youtube. Obviously that's a sub optimal strategy or putting more resources to it now to shorten clips, work on Youtube shorts, et cetera. And so yeah, if you wanna, you wanna, we're gonna build it publicly I guess. So if you want to watch how we build it and the things that we test, I think there's a, there's a lot of value in looking at people watching what people that know what they're doing. Do you can also find me on linkedin chris walker or on the state of demand gen podcast on half one Spotify. Fantastic. Thanks again for joining me on the show. Yeah. One of the things we've learned about podcast audience growth is that word of mouth works. It works really, really well actually. So if you love this show, it would be awesome if you texted a friend to tell them about it and if you send me a text with a screenshot of the text you sent to your friend meta. I know I'll send you a copy of my book, content based networking how to instantly connect with anyone you want to know. My cell phone number is 40749033 to 8 Happy texting.

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