The Future of Paid/Owned/Earned Media for B2B w/Chris Walker

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

In this episode, Dan Sanchez talks with Chris Walker at Refine Labs about the state of paid, owned, and earned media across B2B companies as well as how to properly leverage each to grow.

What you'll learn:

  1. Why you shouldn't pursue earned media and focus on owned instead.
  2. How to properly leverage paid with content and creative.
  3. Where to start with owned media.
  4. How you can know when you're ready to add the next owned media channel.

Yeah, welcome back to be, to be growth. I'mdan Sanchez with sweet fish media and today I'm here with chris walker who isthe ceo of refined labs chris, welcome to the show dan, great to be on here,man, looking forward to diving in. This is a topic that I think is going to bereally interesting. Absolutely. As part of this deep dive that we're kickingoff into owned media for B two B marketing, I wanted to set the tablewith chris walker here today to kind of talk about the current state of thewhole mix of paid media, earned media and of course owned media in order tokind of get some context what we're talking about as far as owned media forB two B marketing today. So to kind of kick it off with my first questionchris, I wanted to talk about If you feel like there's an imbalance betweenthe three paid owned and earned mix with most companies in B two B today.So I think maybe first it's good to just take a step back. So everyone kindof, I feel like the definitions are, are kind of self explanatory but wouldlove to define them for people just so people have them so paid prettystraightforward, you're paying for impressions or distribution orsomething there owned, you're running it through your own channels. Iconsider own channels to be a linkedin channel, a website, a podcast etcetera,you own it, Some people will say, oh it's linked in, so linkedin owns that,you don't, I think that argument is dumb link, you own your linkedinchannel and then lastly earned. Which would be somebody sees something coolthat you did and then they either share it promoted or otherwise put it ontheir platform that includes your content message etcetera. And so now we have those laid out. Iwould say that most companies um at least the ones that I interact with dohave an imbalance here. And where do you feel like the imbalance leanstowards? I think the companies spend um an excessive amount of money on paidprograms to create vanity metrics to appease internal stakeholders andinvestors. And we've run a lot of paid right? So like this is coming from onethat runs a lot of paid but I go into a lot especially larger scale companiesand go in and tell them to spend less because it's just wasteful. Absolutely.And I know you've spent a lot of time talking on your show. It's like whypaid because it's the most easily track of All right you can optimize those U.T. M. Tracking links to optimize from first touch all the way to revenue. Butof course not all those pan out the same. They don't always convert thesame. It's the most easily trackable in the current state of B. Two Bmeasurement which I think is incredibly flawed. Where do you feel like they'reunder leveraged. Do you think you'd be owned or earned. I actually think that owned is probablythe most under leveraged. I think that earned companies pretend to do earnedby hiring a pr firm and trying to get there, get into Forbes or get their Ceoon some news show or put out press releases about their last series craise or something like you can call that earned media. It technically isbut I don't think that's gonna, I don't...

...think that's making a huge differenceabout whether your buyers consider your category in your company and thingslike that. So if you exclude that then they're under leveraged and both ownedand earned. If you were to say like an ideal company in the future or likewhat they should be heading towards soft costs included. What do you feellike the breakup probably should be, should it be split one third, one third,one third or do you feel like there is a line in the sand, you can drawsomewhere there. If we're talking from like budget resource mindshare, I thinkthat the if you separate it out and I want to make this definition very clearbecause the reason that most companies use paid is two run lead gen, if youadjusted your strategy there and you use paid to distribute, then you have avery different set of activities that you could do with paid that I thinkwould be much more effective. We've actually demonstrated that at About 50companies now that it can drive better results. And so if you think about thesplit, I don't know the exact numbers, but I'd say it's somewhere between 60,40, 40, 60 paid and owned. And my feeling is that through the executionof paid and owned you get turned and so that's the way that I look at it.That's the way that we've done it here and re find labs. We've had no effort,no time, nothing. Trying to pitch people to have me on their podcast ortrying to pitch Forbes about why they should write an article about us tryingto pitch a conference about why I should be the keynote speaker there butbecause we execute well on owned all those things come to us and so that'sthe way that I think companies should look at it crush owned. Do I executepaid well, get turned So I spend zero time going after earns just let earn tocome to you. You can do it if you want. I just think it's well efficiency and Ithink that the mindset of if we execute owned well then we get earned forcesyou to do owned well, which is the most important. So when you going back, yousaid like a 60-40 between paid and owned do you or the otherwise rightsomewhere and somewhere in that range and most people over indexing on paid,you would say cut back on some of that paid maybe go hire some more contentmarketers to beef up owned or would you have a different approach to hirecontent marketers to beef up paid, Right? So when when you when you runpaid like buying the ad is only one part of the equation, it's another hugemisunderstanding inside of B two B. If you're running ECM google ads, likeit's 2000 and nine. Yeah, all you need to do is just by the media, but wherepeople actually consume content and were things that advertising channelsthat are actually very effective right now, like facebook instagram linkedinet cetera. It's not only buying the ad, it's about putting something in frontof the people when once you buy the ad that they like that they consume thatthey engage with, that moves them forward in the buying process thathelps them. And so the big mistake that companies make unpaid B2B companiesgenerally is that they only think it's about buying the ad. I just need totarget my decision makers. I need to buy the ad And that's it. As opposed toI need to put something in there as well. And that's why that's where thebalance comes and we push back on...

...companies a lot, whether there arecustomers or not to think about their investment level for every dollar theyspend on media, they need to spend 50 cents to a dollar on content andcreative And most companies will put together literally $250,000 a monthbudget for paid social Facebook Instagram linked in and they'll spend$250,000 on media and they'll spend $5,000 on creative and content and nowonder this doesn't work. I don't even know if we're allowed to swear on here,but I'm feeling good. So I'm gonna do it. Think again. So with a massive emphasis on owned.One thing that I've always notice with your content is you spend very littletime like developing and like a what would be a traditionally owned mediaproperty. I had to go back and try to like split up owned because there's somany different types of owned. You know, you have your social media, I almostconsidered semi owned, right? Because Lincoln kind of owns it, You kind ofown it. There's an algorithm in between you and your followers sometimesdepending on how well you aren't reaching them. Even with podcasting,there's still an entity between you, so you don't really own it. And even withan email is even when you don't really own it, deliver ability. Gmail, right?This argument breaks down if you actually go into the details like youown them all and they're not, my view is they're not semi owned, like you ownyour website, right? But what what does that do you with? Nothing else. I mean,I think to me the difference would be just in the fact that you're notdependent on one company, right? If Apple decides, they don't like you ordecides they changed the way they deliver podcast or maybe they put analgorithm in it. So it's not delivering every single episode. It's a little bitdifferent with email or text message or even direct mail because you can changevendors with it, you can kind of play with it now. But what really matters isthe impact that you make while the channel works. Right, If apple podcastshut down tomorrow, all the people that listen to our podcast would be lookingfor somewhere else to listen to it and they would go and find it on Youtube.They would find it on Spotify, they would find it on the micro stuff thatwe post on linkedin or we would create another one. And so the thing thatpeople need to think about is you need to get to a level where people seek outyour content. That's the problem. You're relying on an algorithm todeliver your stuff and then once the algorithm goes away, people don't wantit. You need to get to a place where people seek out your content and whenyou do that, you're not vulnerable to the platform and algorithm changing.Yeah, I absolutely agree that you can build demand with them. So I feel likeas much as you can build demand with linkedin or podcasting, you could builddemand with email. It's just another totally you could build demand with anyof these things totally. My my view, however, is that people pay way lessattention to emails. I'll give people some really easy examples here I dothis a lot. Imagine think about whether or not you'd be listening to me on thispodcast two years later, if my main strategy was to run S EO and sendemails, nobody would know refined labs, we wouldn't have the talent that workshere. We wouldn't have the customer...

...list in the logo list that we do. Youwouldn't be listening to our content. It's because we put content in theplaces where you actually are and where you actually pay attention. People arenot paying attention anymore enough and email and otherwise it gets conflated alot because in e commerce or super low products like low value product leadcompanies, you need to use email because you can't afford the CAC. Butwhen it comes down to it, if you're an enterprise B2B and your, your mainstrategy is gate content, put people through emails and just basically relyon email. It is a losing strategy from 2011. So what would you say about mediacompanies like the morning brewer, the hustle that hubspot just acquired. Iknow, I mean I listen to your podcast, it's fantastic. I listen to many otherpodcast. I also read the hustle most almost every morning I've tried a fewdifferent ones. The hustle just delivers the kind of content I want toread for some reason? And I'm usually reading it? I think a lot of otherpeople are, would you consider that different than what you're talkingabout with email? I'm not sure I understand the question, like, likeclearly some companies are winning with it. I mean, otherwise hubspot wouldn'thave paid all the money, they just paid for the hustle. So some people aredoing it. Well, would you say that's just that's those are exceptionstotally, because the hustle is not trying to have a back end sales pitchfor their software product afterwards. B two B companies can't do it becausethey don't actually provide value. They're just focused on driving youinto their funnel. That's the reason why it doesn't work. Publishers have abunch of success with it because they're only focus is that thepeople consume the email and that they like it. But when you move that into aB2B company, B2B companies are not thinking about how do I make thisvaluable for this person? They're thinking about how do I get them tobecome an SQL? And that's why the content sucks and that's why emaildoesn't work. And so companies, I encourage companies to think aboutrestructuring their organizations so that they can create a space wheremarketers can think like publishers, so it's less about the medium really andmore about the intent behind the content, are you trying to build anaudience? Are you trying to convert them? If you're trying to build anaudience then? I mean, some channels are gonna be better than others becausesome are going to be on their way out, so we're gonna be on the way in. Youwant to ride the ones that are, you know, you're on the, you know, thebeginning of the swell with the wave. Yeah, when it comes down to it, like,if you came to me and you said you only can pick one would, and this is likethe way that I'm communicating here, like you can only pick one Lincoln oremail, it's linked in hands down. And so I know that other people can runother channels, but the thing that people do, if you exclude the hustleand some of the major ones that are crushing emails, you can find the samething, You can compare that to joe Rogan's podcast. Right? So if you lookat it more in the masses than the at the outliers, then, like, you need tobe able to put that, you need to be able to put that stuff in the channels,you know, and you need to be able to put them into places where you can getthe highest impact at that time, And the highest impact channels, like it'sclear in for a B2B company organic...

...right now podcasts and linked in arethe number one opportunities. And so what companies do instead is they spendall their effort on email and then they don't succeed in the places that havethe best opportunities, You know, it's funny, I've been hearing it said maybefor over a decade now that companies need to be media companies. I feel likepeople have been banging that drum for a long time. I can't find an originalreference to it. Maybe joe Pelosi, Pelosi would be one of those guysthat's been saying that for a long time, but I feel like hardly anybody doesthis, right? And most people at best have a blog, right? Where they'retalking about maybe some content related, just not directly to theirproduct. They're talking more generally, but very few do. So I've seen a few.You had one on your show recently. I think the recorded future has their ownlittle separate website where they're grading journalistic type content forthe industry. Would you think That's a smart strategy for for a variety ofcompanies? Maybe most B2B companies to build a separate media entity. I'm notsure what to call that. It's different than just doing media in a blog. Idon't think that you necessarily need to make it separate. Is the thing, Ithink that you need to think like I'll go back to why companies can't do this,right? So it's obvious that if you thought like a publisher and you andthen you created content that was associated with your brand. But thecontent was built on helping people with zero intent about they're buyingyour product. People will pretend that they do, but they don't, if you didthat, then you would have a much more successful business long term. Thereason that companies can't do it is because the people that would beresponsible for architect in those programs are responsible for hittingshort term metrics and they get pulled into all of the garbage self centeredcompany stuff so they can't succeed on a podcast. And so if you wanted this tobe successful in the reason why software companies go out and acquirethese companies is because they can't do it themselves. But if you if you didlike it's not that you can't, it's that you set yourself up in a position whereit would always fail if you did. And so if you change the structure and yousaid we're going to take for $100 million air, our SAAS company, We'regoing to take four people, we're gonna put them out over here and all they'reresponsible for is creating information that our buyers love on that team.We're gonna have somebody that's a social expert, just contentdistribution expert. We're going to have an actual expert who has been ourcustomer before and our customers trust them, We're going to have a creativeperson that can take the content and package it and move it, put it intodifferent places and we're gonna have somebody that's going to completelyarchitect the strategy and kind of pull all the strings, figure out the topics,all those things. We're gonna take those four people and we're gonna letthat run for two years and we're not going to scrutinize them against leeds.We're not going to scrutinize them against attribution. We're going tolook at what our buyers say about the content. We're gonna look at how manypeople are subscribing and then when they, when we use gong on our sales,cause we're going to track how many people mention our podcast within thefirst five minutes of the sales call.

We're going to do those types of thingsand then we're gonna be able to actually set this thing up to work. Andso that that's the recommendation. Like I have no idea why a company wouldn'tdo that. Especially at the scale that I'm talking about 100 millionaire are,that's a drop in the bucket. In terms of your overall, Overall, you got 50marketers running around sending emails and doing gated content and stuff. Youcan't put four over here and do something helpful for your buyer. Sothat's what I would recommend if you think about it, whether it's separateor together. I actually would prefer it to be together. Right? So like state ofdementia and podcast refined labs together, I think it's more clearwhat's going on. I think as long as you can have a clear division betweenchurch and state, so to speak, in the level of intent so that people aren'treached. So that's, you know, Mark performance marketers or salespeopleare not reaching in to your podcast. Try to pull out leads. Makes a lot ofsense, but you're not saying that it's impossible to do. It's just that in thecurrent state of most companies, the way they're incentivized is never goingto allow that to fly, but they could restructure to do it. It's clearlypossible, right? There's there's plenty of companies that have done it recordedfuture. Um, the record is one example drift had a really good thing going fora while, um, as well. So there are examples of companies that have beenable to do this and the key is having a marketing leader that really knows howto execute it and a Ceo that's really bought in and then you set up astructure whether you need to put the team on the side because that's theonly way that it will succeed or you have alignment between sales ceo andmarketing that this is a strategic priority that you're going to dobecause it's truly effective, everyone buys in either way of those situationscan work. But what I found interacting with hundreds of companies is that fora majority, the only way that it actually has a shot of working is bycreating a separate team and you're a much bigger fan of creating contentwhere people are so they can consume it, we're on the platform is already onrather than creating a content hub, more like the record. I mean it's, Imean Gary v has been doing it for a long time, like he, he spends hardlyany time promoting his Gary Vaynerchuk dot com, he's usually being consumed onevery other platform out there. You would say that's the better route thanhaving a home base. Just think about it. Right? So just think about if I took mylinkedin video, which I can pull it up right now, probably. So my linkedinvideo from yesterday Which has gotten 14,000 views on a five minute video.And so, and the reason that I got 14,000 views, it's because it's becausethe videos in the feed so that someone sees it, they can watch it and they cancontinue on natively. And if I took that exact same video and I put apicture and then I said, hey, click off onto chris walker dot com So you canwatch this four minute video instead of 14,000 people watching it. Probably 14people would and that's the reason that we don't push people off social socialis built for native consumption. That's what people want to do, remove frictionevery other company because they're obsessed with clicks and googleanalytics and all the all the old stuff...

...outdated stuff in my view thatmarketers have been trained to do. They try and push people onto their ownwebsite and they miss out on all the opportunity. Would you say there's acertain set of owned media sites that you would go after? I usually think ofit as in terms of like a short form site and a long form site linkedinpodcasting. Do you recommend any other ones? Are there certain things you'relooking for when companies are setting up their own media for the first timethat you may correct that you recommend? So if you exclude website from thisequation then, um, I'm looking for like the system that we've created, I callit, it's like an event fly. We also, you have an event. The event becomes apodcast. The content from the event becomes linked in content and then youcan also put it on Youtube. So you kind of get three or four channels in one.Um, and so that's the like the base case you're doing all the same, thesame amount of work. You're just putting on a couple of other channels.But generally I recommend for people and that's, that's taking us probably ayear from when we started on linked in to actually get to that type of cadence.But the recommendation is a process that I call stacking growth, whichmeans that you need to get one channel to work first before you work on thenext five. And so what companies again, we'll do, we'll check the box on, I'mgoing to have an instagram channel and we gonna post to R 14 followers andwe're gonna take our linkedin company page and we're gonna post to R 200followers and most of them are employees and we're gonna post apodcast once every two months that nobody listens to and we're gonna sendautomated emails to people. You get what I'm saying, right? And so theyspread out their focus that none of them actually work and then they justkind of like spin their wheels aren't stuff. And sothe recommendation is figure out your number one, which for us, it was linkedin Number one. Get that thing to actuallydrive results, results being customers and revenue. Not, I got a lot of likes,get that to work and then figure out what you need to stack on top of it. Soif there was a logical sequence, like what we did was linked in and then wewent to events and then the events moved added into a podcast, the podcastadded into Youtube and next we're going to go into Tiktok. That's like theprocess. It's interesting with Tiktok tiktok and twitter, even though I feellike twitter is making a little bit of a comeback and there's more marketersthere. Are you just forcing more marketers being there in the future.I'm tapping around on twitter. However, again, looking back to like thecomparison made between linked in an email. If the, if the conversation istiktok or twitter, I'm choosing Tiktok every day because the upside is justway higher. Twitter has been around for 15 years. It's like there's, there'stoo much content, not enough eyeballs, it's just a, it's a mess. And so Iwould just like given limited resources and you have to make choices. A lot ofpeople would choose to do both and they would do both mediocre to below average.I'm gonna pick one. I'm gonna try and do it above average to the best when Iapproach a channel, whether it's podcaster linked in my goal was how doI become the best For B- two B marketing on that channel? Um and Ithink that's a mindset that other...

...people should take. How do you know,you've kind of reached a point where you're ready to branch off to the nextthing, Is it to the point where you're generating revenue for it, maybe acouple quarters in a row, Like where do you, where do you draw the line forthat when you start to produce enough revenue and profit? Well in my businessprofit and venture funded companies revenue and acceptable customeracquisition costs where you produce enough revenue, where your, where yourcompany is giving you more resources to make this go faster and then when youhave the opportunity to make it go faster, you need to make good choicesabout where you go from there. Need to get to keep the snowball rolling, keepdelivery more and more results, keep getting more and more budget, keepexpanding channels and innovating. All right. And it seems like the way you approach most owned mediachannels in the way you've been able to build audiences mainly through thoughtleadership content, would you say it's like a mix of something else or is itmainly just you leading with your point of view? Um of course it's more, Idon't know, I feel like I think about like the strategic narrative, I thinkabout the brand, there's a lot of different elements to it, would you sayit's mostly thought leadership pushed driving your content for it? So I'vebeen coming up with a new term on this one just because I think thoughtleadership is stale and misinterpreted and the execution of it is generallypoor. And so I'm calling it category marketing, which is what we're doing.I'm not trying to sell anything. I'm trying to get people to understand thatthe ideas that we believe in and how the world is changing matters, howbuyers are changing matters and if they don't, if they want to get left behind,they can keep doing the things that they're doing. If they want to be onthe forefront, get an edge on competitors continuously get furtherand further ahead in terms of marketing. Sophistication and their competitiveset then they should consider moving on this now. And that's what, that's theway that I look at it? I think the thought leadership typically becomes atop of the funnel. Let's get someone into a webinar so we can move them intoour funnel. Um and that's not my intent at all with this content or information,Another big part of it that I don't think I don't see thought leadershipgetting executed a lot is that the people that listen to my content canget enormous amounts of value without paying us a cent. They can go and takeaway. We give away a lot of our best stuff we give away frameworks andprocesses that most people would never find or develop on their own and can goand execute. We have cmos that listen to listen to my stuff on linkedin andgo and get way better results for their business for free while they also wastethousands, tens of thousands of dollars with agencies that suck. So there's abig point in that, which is that if they can't listen to your free contentand go and do something with it, then you also have an issue man. So circlingback to paid media and how that influences your own media. So you'rerunning a lot of these ideas, your your category marketing on paid media andyou're trying to influence people. You're trying to give them ideas thatare actionable that are useful for them,...

...but you're not using it to point to anyany other property. Are you just, are you running video ads on linkedin andjust letting the idea set for itself with no call to action. So in our paid mixes a little bit morecomplex than what you laid forward there. So we, for up until this point,just for the listeners to get up into this point, we've been talking aboutown channels, typically organic distribution and now we're moving intopaid and so in the paid mix, some of the organic content that we'reproducing, category marketing is going to go in there. We're also going tohave more like a full funnel mix. So lower final things that more focus onthe product tested, case studies and social proof features and features andvalue propositions, things like that. So the whole set, the reason that we doit is because we guarantee distribution to people in organic, you don't haveguaranteed distribution. Whoever is in your audience is going to see it andthen it gets amplified with organic reach and you don't have any realcontrol over who's saying that. And so the advantage on paid is I can say,okay, I'm going out, my target buyer is CFOs and VP of finance at companiesthat are 200 to 2000 employees that are texas and so I'm gonna go and take thattarget? I'm gonna make that, I'm gonna make that audience and then I'm goingto guarantee the delivery of this information, whether it's a video, apicture etcetera, To all of those people. And I'm going on Facebook andInstagram and pay one cent To give a CFO this message and I'm linked in. I'mgonna pay four cents to give a CFO this message. And that's the way that Ithink about paid media. But what other people do as they say, I'm going to goand take, I'm gonna build the exact same audience. And then I'm going tothink nothing about the content of the creative and I'm gonna optimize tocollect email addresses and I'm going to try and have my SDRs call them orrun them through market animation. And so people don't, people don't have agood enough understanding of respect for how different those strategies are.They just look at it oh, it's paid media. Those two strategies areincredibly different from a result standpoint, from an intense standpoint,from an operational like requirements standpoint. And so that's really thedifference of what we're doing. But the key on paid is that I'm guaranteeingdelivery to people that I want and an organic, it's free, but you don't haveas much control over who sees it. So does it just become more of a brandplay like them being educated by the content that you're paying to syndicate.But they're becoming familiar with you, your brand name is becoming synonymouswith the ideas, it's like a tv commercial, This is a modern televisioncommercial and B2B except instead of on television where you can't targetpeople. I can give it to exactly who I want. And then I create my televisioncommercial or I build my billboard if it's a picture and then I put it in thechannel and I'm not looking when someone watched the televisioncommercial very railway. Like they see a ford F 1 50 commercial, they're notgoing to their phone and saying, I want to quote this F 1 50 right now, it'sthe same thing. And so that's what we're doing for software, runningtelevision commercials were making...

...billboards. We're targetingappropriately. We're giving it to people where people see them. It'sreally not that complicated. And so because companies are so focused onattribution, on measuring things on direct response lead gen, let's giveour SDR is a bunch of emails and phone numbers to pound because they'refocused on that stuff. They're paid mix turns into that stuff. And so I'm just,I'm offering an alternative that makes way more sense and drives betterresults. What I'm trying to understand is like, what is the creative actuallylook like? Are you just creatively presenting the product? I think you'refrom what I've seen before. Your you're taking essentially what you're puttingorganically out there and just running paid media behind it. Yeah. So organic,like the videos that you see in Arlington would be one example of whatwe could do that might be like 15% of the mix, right? There's other ones thatare gonna be way more like product oriented, there's gonna be some thatare more heavy design or animations or those things. And so the, from acreative standpoint, the point is that you have a ton of flexibility in whatyou can do when you get away from the lead gen mindset companies can't do anyof the stuff that I'm talking about when they're in legion mode. And soonce you, if you can get yourself out of that, you can think about, I'm gonnatake that video of our ceo doing a fireside chat with one of our bestcustomers and I'm gonna take that and then I'm gonna run it to all the othercompanies that are just like that customer. And then do you retargetbased on percentage watched or you just kind of run like a mix of ads that havetarget varying intense down the funnel to one audience because we don't thinkabout it like a funnel, we don't run retargeting like we're selling a $60hat on instagram ads. So like, yes, we have re targeting audiences but notlike I'm not Trying to think about someone buying $100,000 year softwaretool in a three step funnel on linkedin is just not the way that it worksbecause all those funnels end up on End up in one place, get a demo ad legionAnd when you end up, get a demo at legion, it doesn't matter whether thatperson watched the 50, of the video before they're gonna go in there andyou're gonna win almost none of them because it doesn't align with howbuyers buy from a direct response intense standpoint. And so what we've,we've run tests on this before I can eventually try and pull pull data andshow this for people in a large scale. But it doesn't matter whether you hadthree steps in your funnel or one step if you, if the ending point is, hey,get a demo ad, come fill up my landing page, the conversion rates are gonna bethe same. The conversion rates are really bad, customer acquisition costis very high. So we don't do it that way. Okay, so you have a mix mix ofadds, some are speaking more to the product, some more of the broader idea.Um, and you're just getting them a mix of them out in front of the audience.Yeah. And over time, if you thought about this in a different way where youactually invest appropriately and creative and content, then you couldcreate a different video for your target market every day and you couldput that on linkedin and facebook where they spend time every day and you couldcommunicate ideas that right now you...

...wait for someone to get in a demo withyour sales team to communicate. And so you don't reach most of the market. Andso instead of doing that, you could give that to everybody in the market toteach them things to start internal conversations and word of mouth andthey would eventually start to see the problems that you're talking about intheir business and be more likely and open to solving them and when they dothat they're gonna be more likely to do it with you. And so that is about theeasiest way that I can explain it, wow. So it's been fun to have you onthe show and clarify a bunch of things after, I think after you watch somebodyon all these platforms for a while, you know, I think I see most of yourlinkedin posts, I've listened to most of the podcast, but after a while youhave to wonder about a lot of the in between, right? There's all these inbetween things, which to me is like sometimes that's why a book is helpfulof course, because it can fill in those gaps, but at the same time I won't denythat it's working. I mean we've we've even asked B two B marketers like whois the top influencer pain too and your name, you and Dave Gearhart areprobably, I can't see if there's like a winner between them and we asked 100 Btwo B marketers who is coming up towards the top people influencing Btwo B marketers today. So Without an email list, without a site that you'repulling people back to, you certainly have the attention of the B- two Bmarketing world. So it's been fun to have you on the show, kind of get someof these details. Is there anything else you would share that we haven'tcovered for B two B marketers specifically around owned media? Werethey getting stuck? How can they fix it? The number one place that B two Bcompanies get stuck on owned media is because their attribution models set itup to fail. And so we've created something very easy. We've tested it onour business, we're rolling it out on our customers. We have data fromseveral saAS companies about how it works, which is what I would considerself reported attribution, otherwise known as common sense attribution. Andso what we do is we just add a field on the form where the revenue comes fromand says, how did you hear about us? And then the people tell you, and it'sfascinating what they say and what they write, and it gives credit to all ofthe things that we're talking about. So if you believe in these things, if youbelieve in running the podcast on posting content on Lincoln that peoplelove and creating events that people love not to go and get leads, then youcould do all of these things. If you had attribution set up in that way. Sothat some of the examples that we get is we get people that say I heard aboutyou from dan Sanchez in peak community. Dave Gerhardt told me about yourpodcast, I started listening to it and then I saw one of your employees onlinkedin. I've been following them for a while and now I'm here on yourwebsite converting and then attribution software says, oh this lead came fromorganic search and so if you adjust your attribution model in a way thatmakes it that I think reflects common sense, then you can show all how muchthese things work. And it and it's...

...funny as well because the companiesthat run heavy on paid and are obsessed with attribution and habit, they onlylook at the attribution on the leads, They don't look at the attribution onwhen people became customers and they don't look at how much it costs them toget those customers. And so it's just funny Consistently get fascinated byhow companies pretend that they are data driven and then they just neveranalyzed the data because if they do it, I've done it with 50 companies and thedata is always shows that the main things that companies spend money ondon't work where there you go chris thank you so much for joining me on Btwo B growth where can people connect with you online. I know your papa onlinkedin and uh on the podcast of course, but you mentioned youtube and Ididn't even know youtube was becoming a thing for you. Yeah, we're gettingyoutube going, it's under refined labs, not chris walker, so feel free to checkit out there. Um we are working on adopt like basically up to this pointit's been take the video version of the podcast and put it on youtube.Obviously that's a sub optimal strategy or putting more resources to it now toshorten clips, work on Youtube shorts, et cetera. And so yeah, if you wanna,you wanna, we're gonna build it publicly I guess. So if you want towatch how we build it and the things that we test, I think there's a,there's a lot of value in looking at people watching what people that knowwhat they're doing. Do you can also find me on linkedin chris walker or onthe state of demand gen podcast on half one Spotify. Fantastic. Thanks againfor joining me on the show. Yeah. One of the things we've learnedabout podcast audience growth is that word of mouth works. It works really,really well actually. So if you love this show, it would be awesome if youtexted a friend to tell them about it and if you send me a text with ascreenshot of the text you sent to your friend meta. I know I'll send you acopy of my book, content based networking how to instantly connectwith anyone you want to know. My cell phone number is 40749033 to 8 Happytexting.

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