B2B Growth: Your Daily B2B Marketing Podcast
B2B Growth: Your Daily B2B Marketing Podcast

Episode 2113 · 2 months ago

How Narrative, Category, & Community Work Together to Create a Brand Flywheel

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

In this episode, Dan Sanchez talks with Kalim Aull about his new model called the Brand Evolution Flywheel that incorporates a Strategic Narrative, Category Design, and Community Building into one fine art. 


Take a look at the visual model he created for reference: https://sweetfishmedia.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/07/Brand-Evolution-Flyweeh.png

Yeah, welcome back to BTB Growth. I'm danSanchez with Sweet fish Media and I'm here with Kaleem Oh, who is the cofounder of Service Cycle Kaleem, Welcome to the show. Thanks dan. Iappreciate being here with you because I guess I could say welcome back to theshow. Is this actually the second time we've had you on the last couple ofmonths? Callum is somebody that I see often on linkedin and he first poppedup in a huge linkedin post that I had with a huge, like just a massive amountof comments were all arguing and talking about what the heck demandgeneration is because I was frustrated because after reading about it, I stillwasn't any closer to understanding what the heck it actually was because itsounded like marketing sounded like everybody had different definitions andhe stepped in with this awesome graphic that brought a lot of clarity to it.Now I ended up doing a show with them on that with Leslie crews who did adeep dive on GDP Growth just a few months ago and I know you were one ofthose episodes and that was great, It was super helpful, but recently hepopped up again in my news feed with another in my opinion, like a gamechanging concept and I was like, I think James tagged me and it was likedan, you have to look at this and I'm like, yes, welcome back to the showbecause I wanted to talk about it and the concept that this is called theBrand Evolution Flywheel Right? And it incorporates three major parts ofnarrative Category and community. It just so happened to be three thingsthat are like the hot topic and B2B marketing right now because everybody'stalking about strategic narrative category design and building authenticcommunities and the way he pulled it together into this concentric circlewhere one plays into the other. It was a very fascinating concept now. It'swhen you look at the graphic and off the link to it in the show notes thatwill describe it in more detail as we go because we're going to talk aboutthe three major sections of it. It's you have to kind of stare at it and itrequires thought like you know, it's not as clear as the last graphic I sawwhere it's kind of like concentric circles of like a B. M. In the middleand then demanding and then brand on the outside. Like that was reallysimple, you understood it immediately. This one like actually take some studybut still brings a lot of clarity to what I think there are three majortopics that B two B community is talking about but is grappling with howto put them all together. So to kick it off, can you tell me a little bit aboutlike where did this brand evolution flywheel come from? Like where did theAh ha moment come to you? Yeah, you know, to be honest, it's a process,it's been a process of, you know, listening to experts in each of theseindividual areas, you know, you've got your Andy Raskin's for strategicnarrative, you've got your Christopher lock heads for category design, you gotyour son ground batteries for community building, you know, I'm watching allthese people listening to them, but I'm coming at it from more of a macro, youknow, go to market type of look all the time and from the sustainable growthperspective of go to market. So, you know that that bigger GTM vision that Ialways have, combined with me seeing the value that all these people are arebringing, allowed me to start connecting the dots and see how thesecategories or phases play out over your GTM cycles. Right? So you'll be you'llyou'll start out much more heavy on the narrative, even though technicallyyou're doing all three of these things simultaneously all the time. It's notlike 1, 2, 3, but it is like waiting, right? You're waiting, whichever phasematches your GTM position. Right? So what phase do you think people startwith the most when it comes to narrative in this circle? He has it asa narrative on top, which kind of flows into category, which kind of flows intocommunity and then flows back into narrative, which one is the startingpoint since it's a circle. So look, you...

...can frame this model uh in many waysyou could choose your own starting point, in a sense, there's no problemwith, you know, you might have been building good relationships in thesense of community before you figured out your narrative totally. And that'swhat kind of revealed your narrative to you in the first place. They're alsoconnected that there isn't really a starting point, but I could evolvefirst on purpose because it is like there is a prioritization because you can't really buildcommunity effectively and efficiently and and make it happen at the scalethat's required without a truly evolved narrative. It's like the firstrequirement of everything in order to have something that's worth unifyingaround. Right? I mean, you can't launch out thegate thinking you have it all together, it always is an evolution. It's alwaysa thing that has to be figured out over time, totally, totally. And I thinkthat, you know what we're what I'm, what I'm trying to suggest here is thatthe purpose of all this is to create a unity around something massive unityaround something that's what the purpose of narrative is and category,It's not, in my opinion, it's not to be number one you end up leading thecategory, that's just a byproduct. But if you think you're number one you mayfall into the trap And you may end around one Cycle andyou may not reinvent yourself because you think you're number one and so youdon't learn from the community, You don't build community at a level thatreveals the next narrative evolution, Right? So I'm very wary of even callingmyself number one. I get nervous about that. I'm like, whoa, no, hold on, holdon, hold on, hold on. The market will decide I'm number one or not. I don'thave to say that for myself, right? But my goal is to always have all thatnarrative and then create unity around it. It makes sense. So, it could startwith community, could start with narrative, I'd be hard pressed to sayit starts with category because usually category has to start with thenarrative of some kind. If you don't have a narrative, you probably don'thave a category. Even as I think back to Sweet Fish Media and the narrativewe've been telling you probably actually started in community becauseJames is just so relational, he knows so many people, has been collaboratingwith lots of people and then out of that, the narrative around BdBpodcasting has been forming, which is kind of created a category around B twoB podcasting over the years and now it's it's I can see it swinging backinto community is where even now trying to figure out how to create a strongercommunity than there already is, so around and round it spins. But let'sstart at like narrative because I feel like a lot of things probably couldstart their, oftentimes people start companies because they're like I'mscratching my own itch, I had a problem, which is the beginning of a narrative,right? Um I know that's how you got started. Now, Sweet Fish got started.James, James wanted a way to meet more people and he discovered thatpodcasting was a great way to get conversations with lots of people um ontop of making great content and that's how He started the way he does B two Bpodcasting. So when you look at narrative, How does it start with thatand what can companies look at two kind of kick start this process? Yeah, soyou know, I I do I do come from the stance of solving your own problemsfirst. You know, I believe that personal frustration, personal struggle,it is the raw material through which great narratives are built. So, youknow, I I think that we do, I think we do too much of trying to kind of writenarratives for other people a little...

...bit when I think that you have a betterprobability of success if you can solve your own problems and evolve thatnarrative for yourself. Most of the successful companies that I've seen orpeople actually not even companies, just people, right, they saw they havea period of frustration, there's some sort of problem and over time theyfigure out a new better way because there is no alternative, like theproblem is so irritating to them that they are like destined to bring thatnew approach. So I think that, you know, a lot of people will jump into the oldworld, new world, old game, new game, which is perfect. I'm 100% on board.This is how you finalize it into a deck, Right? But that all that came from, youknow, the garden of frustration. If it doesn't, you risk you risk potentiallyconfusing, seen, um, if you're guessing a little bit too much, there issomething powerful about the founder's story. Probably one of the mostpowerful narratives you can have is that narrative I realized not everybodystarts with that narrative, though, you might have bought that company, youmight have inherited the company, you might have risen up the ranks and itwasn't your story, but now you're the ceo of the company right there. There'smany reasons why it might not be your thing or you just started a spotted amarket opportunity. You were familiar enough with the field and youcapitalized on it, even though it wasn't your problem, um, to begin with.So it's not always, you don't always have the luxury of having that thoughif you do. And that's such a, that's such a strategic advantage that youhave over others in the market to be because you have a, you have the feelyourself. It's not like you need to go talk to your customers so you stillneed to talk to them, but you don't have to do it quite as much to have anintuitive feeling whether something rings true or not with the product andwith the marketing and messaging. So there's something about that, it isreally strong. What would you say for everybody else? I mean, do you try tolook at the old game, new game? Yeah. So that's the ideal. I'm painting theideal for you there the other way can work. So it's not like, you know, anultimatum or anything. Uh if you are in that situation where you don't you justyou took over the ceo role and now you're running running the business andyou know, the division is with you. I would hire somebody, I would hiresomebody either either you are that customer in a sense or you needsomebody who does this, right, Andy Raskin or there's many others, right?But that's the first name that comes to my mind. So I I do think that eitheryou have that personal experience that frustration and you solve the problemfor yourself. So you are that you are one of the segments of customers in asense, or you that's not the case. And you need to collaborate to have ahigher level of capability to be able to find it exactly. So that's how wediscover the narrative. How does that bleed over into the category? Yeah.Okay, so here's the thing is I believe that the narrative will tell you whatthe category is. If you do, if you flush it out, well, the word willsurface once the narrative is clear enough, the word becomes obvious or thetwo words whatever the category is called. So I think that what you startto notice as you get through these, you know, old game, new game, old world,new world, old behavior and new behavior. Old results, new results,right? If you flush all those out all of a sudden, the words that you used to describe those things, the categorycomes out at you because you're describing the essenceof old and new in such a precise way that it's almost begging for this word,right? I think the problem is when...

...people start brainstorming likecategory names a little bit too much, Instead of just focusing 100% of thenarrative and letting that be, letting that be revealed, letting you revealitself to a great extent. I think the category has to be greatly organic. Inever sat down and was like, sustainable growth, you know, andbrainstormed a whole bunch of other names for categories. So I think thatmy narrative, I knew my narratives intuitively, really well andsustainable growth was just like the term that described clearly what I'mtalking about. So let's talk about a few people that have been doing thiswell, like, let's reverse engineer what the narrative is, behind a fewcategories that have been buzzing around a lot. Let's start with accountbased marketing. What's the narrative? So, well, the company's marketing, thenarrative is uh, quality is the new game, and quantity is the old game.Quality relationships is the new game, quantity relationships is the old gamebefore we were due organization. Everybody now we're just targeting afew prioritization game. Right? The old the old game is uh, I don't know what the opposite ofprioritization is. Its its target accounts. I'm sorry, It's targetaudience versus target accounts. It's very different. Target audience isdescribed through demographic psychographic. Stargate accounts areusing firma graphics, not even firma graphics. It's not even types, it'sspecifically these companies, right? Which is a very different approach,very different approach. So, A A b M, a b M says that, You know, 3% of yourpeople are going to outperform The other 97%, basically, uh by a multiple saying that there's this tiny second ofpeople that's actually meant to be in a relationship with you. So, the olderways kind of suggest that, you know, we can just kind of have more mediocrerelationships and that's not going to pull down. It's not going to weigh downour ship, right? So, yeah, I mean, that's a B M is a great, a greatexample. You go and go to demand gen, right legion manage. And it's funny,both both of them have a very different, they both come out of a frustration andthat marketing B2B marketing is not working, but both have different, adifferent way of emphasizing and a different narrative behind them, right?With a BMX, we're not targeting the right accounts or we're targeting toomany accounts with demand jin, it's we're not getting ahead of people,right? I mean, chris walker, we the MQM is dead, we're just generating badleads, you know, instead of actually helping people desire what we're evenoffering. Yes, we need to get ahead by generating demand instead of capturingdemand. I think it's the drum of demand jin get ahead of it, generate demandbefore it's just capturing it. Otherwise somebody else will generateit and capture it. If you generate it, you generally capture it. Right? Andthat's kind of the thing, they're linked together. Yeah, so so yeah,demand gen is a great one. We could do um gong right, goodbye opinions. Hello!Reality! Revenue Intelligence is kind of the kevin now. Their narrative isinteresting because I've heard, yeah, he was on the show recently and talkingabout how the narrative came out of well, we wanted to be able to sell touh Cros and they weren't buying our previous narrative, they weren't buyingbecause we didn't have a category. We were a sales call center tool insteadof a revenue tool. So we changed the category specifically to targetenterprise level cros who weren't interested in our thing. We wanted tomake them interested in our things. So we changed, we created everythingaround this category called Revenue Intelligence, so that the sierra wouldpay attention, but it doesn't come out of like a dying need. Okay, so theirsituation is more of the is more of the...

...other situation that we're talkingabout where, you know, there's investors and there's, you know,funding and there's a Ceo who comes in and CMO and we'll be able to block. Ijust think that they hired Andy Raskin did. They worked with somebody who'stalking with us the whole time building the narrative. So, so it just goes toshow you they didn't do that in a bubble. You know, isolated siloed, theywent to someone who's been doing this their entire career and he facilitatedthat process for them and eventually they stuck with something, right, andit work. So yeah, it's really sometimes sometimes it is literally solving yourown problems, a massive problem and creating that new approach, or it'slike you already have a new approach to something, but you're just not framingit correctly. So people understand you and that was their situation. They'relike, people don't actually care about what we're calling this thing, like we're calling it something that'sabsolutely killing us. Instead of coming up with somethingoriginal essentially becomes a repositioning play. But you'rerepositioning in a new category, you're taking something you already do welland refocusing it, which is why category design ultimately falls underpositioning as a, I guess, a marketing term. So we've talked a lot aboutnarrative, we've talked about how it informs the category. Let's talk abouthow the category informs the community. And I've heard a lot of people say like,you don't really have a category until you have a community, like the evidenceof a community shows that you actually have a real category. Yes. Yes and no,it's both. So it's a complicated answer. Yes. The community is the category. Youdesign the category to build the community. That is the purpose ofdesigning the category in my mind, Right? So they are connected so tightly,like they're almost one, right? However, there's there's a reason why separatedthose two things into phases, because I was highlighting the differencesbetween that. So, for me, I see the category design um as designing youreducational materials and facilitation, community facilitation process, right?There's this new approach and you're calling it this thing. But do you havethe wealth of of resources? Do you have those capabilities there for thecommunity to take advantage of? So that you can facilitate success at scalebecause the category happens when their success at scale uh to me. Right. Andso if you're looking at category design is just like a way to own some sort ofterm, I think you're missing out on a large part of the final and the revenue.So I suggest always looking at category design as your your facilitationprocess. How are you going to make things easier for people to act uponand actually do stuff? Right. If we want people to start podcasts, we haveto make it easier for them to start podcasts. Somehow. If we want people tochange from legions of demand jin we have to make it easier for them to makethose moves without us. Right. And so the category design is a lot aboutfacilitating community success. Hey, everybody Logan with sweet fish here.If you've been listening to the show for a while, you know, we're bigproponents of putting out original organic content on linked in. But onething that's always been a struggle for a team like ours is to easily track thereach of that linked in content. That's why I was really excited when I heardabout Shield the other day from a connection on you guessed it linked insince our team started using Shield. I've loved how it's led us easily trackand analyze the performance of Arlington content without having tomanually log it ourselves. It automatically creates reports andgenerate some dashboards that are...

...incredibly useful to see things likewhat contents been performing the best and what days of the week are wegetting the most engagement and our average views per post. I highlysuggest you guys check out this tool if you're putting out content on linked inand if you're not, you should be, it's been a game changer for us. If you goto shield app dot ai and check out the 10 day free trial, you can even use ourpromo code B two B growth to get a 25% discount again, that's shield app dotAi. And that promo code is B the number two. The growth. All one word. Allright, let's get back to the show. As you were talking. It occurred to melike with the narrative, you have the y with the category, you have the whatwith the community, you have the who? It's almost like Simon cynics likegolden circles or whatever, but you're dropping the the how with the who. Butyou have to start with the compelling why. That's the reason why we're allhere. The reason why the what is so important, which is the category. It'sa new way of thinking, it's a new methodology, it's a new framework orway of doing things. Um but it's all informed by the why, which is why youhave to sometimes you can you run into a compelling, like what how to dothings, but you don't have a computer, you have to figure out why peopleshould care, right? Which is why the narrative so important. And if theydon't have a reason to care, it's kind of like it just kind of gets lumped inwith everything else and people forget about it. But if you come up with thecompelling why and how in a way to approach that why, which is thecategory, then the community cares, and that's where a lot of other peoplestart to get around it. Is that about right? That's brilliant,man. That's brilliant. I love matching you know, uh why? What? How and who,why? What, how and who around this. I think that's a beautiful, beautifulcomparison. That's a beautiful comparison down. Let me go makingprogress together. So we're around this circle, let's bring it back. So, wehave the narrative, we have a compelling why we have the category,which is the how we're addressing this. Why? And now we have a bunch of peoplethat are that are nodding their heads with us and saying yes, this is the way,you know, which is like your most probably the most common hashtag I seeyou throwing out there. Um um so we have a community around this new way ofdoing things to address the why? How does that come back to inform the why? Okay, that's good. That's good. Okay,So yeah, basically what happens is the companies that That designed thecategory just to be # one. Don't end up building the community.Right. Okay. The companies that design a category with the intent of buildingthe community and that building the community and facilitating communitysuccess. So what ends up happening in that community building process is thatyou are seeing your approach, your methodology, playing out at scale andyou're engaging and interacting with the people who are applying thatmethodology, right? And you're getting such a good diversity of examples inthe community that another level of clarity starts toemerge over time and becomes another problem. Another problem emerges sothat we can get to the next level of success, right? So the community showsyou a bigger problem that's connected to your originalproblem, but it's the next one on the ladder, right? It's the next logicalproblem that's going to occur for your community. So, I think that the peoplewho get too caught up in just the company, the GTM, the company part ofthe go to market, right? And they neglect that wider, looser communitybuilding part of the process. They...

...never end up getting the type ofperspective, customer perspective or player perspective people who areplaying this game right? They are generally focused on the numbers fromtheir own customers are getting new customers, but they're not actuallyfocused on the success stories or the failure stories, which is where thoseinsights emerged from. It's interesting. I'm trying to think of examples ofcompanies making the jump more than once. I'll probably think of somethough, I can think of a few that are making the jump now. I mean totally theA. B. M. Communities totally making jump. Sand grams making his move withhis next book trying to evolve as as the A B. M community has gotten biggerand has identified problems with the approach because it's not a one sizefits all. There are nuances to it. So naturally the community is going toevolve in demand base is taking their narrative is trying to trying to applytheir what they think is the narrative is with A B X. And I think Sandra istaking a more GTM approach with his question right? It's funny to see whichone of them actually has the narrative. Right? That's exactly it. So if I amcorrect, maybe I'm not correct. Let's just see how it goes. If I'm correct,then some drums way is a better way. Unless I don't know something about theman base where they built this great community and they found all this outto the community. Maybe that's true, right? But if we're going to play outlike a science experiment, this is a good test of whether the communityreveals a better narrative or whether you can kind of just piece thattogether without, without that, you know, so one live, I don't actuallyunderstand the nuances of how Sandra was doing it. I understand demand basisroute. I actually even talk to Sandra about it and I was like, I'm still, I'mstill waiting for his book to come out and then I'll probably understanddemand base is coming out an approach of like A B. X. Is taking a BM andworking it through the whole life cycle of the account. Like why do we justleave it as a marketing sales thing? Let's work it through as a customersuccess thing and retention thing a turn things like you should be thewhole the whole company should be focused on A B. M. Right? Yeah. I thinkthat's where they're going with it. He just right. What can I haven't read it.But I think from what I've heard from him, john miller, I agree with that. Iagree with that 100% to me. To be honest, A B. M. Is shifted two thirdsto your current clients. It's not even like that. I'm just coming with anumber but it's hedged towards your current clients. That that's actuallywhat it says because you're, you're expanding an account. The whole conceptof A B. M. Is to expand accounts. There's an appreciation, content ofappreciation happening in a BM over time. So I think, I think that they, Ithink they're both right. You know, like GTM there is this orchestrationbetween marketing and customer success or marketing sales and customer success,right? There also is this truth that A B. M. Is a full life cycle uh strategy,Right? And so what's beautiful is that these two companies have agreed to nolonger compete? Yeah, it's true. They're splitting, splitting the IBMcommunity and they're different fields and we'll see which one becomes thebigger, more profitable one. Or maybe they both because it's not a zero sumgame. Maybe both are wildly successful, right? I think that's a problem and Ihope, I hope the best for beth because they're both doing some cool stuff.We're still having a hard time. I can think of a few that have made the jumponce. I can't think of a single company that's made the jump multiple times now.It takes probably a decade or two to jump more than twice, so Oh my God,maybe I just haven't been in the market long enough myself to actually watch ithappening. So I'm like, I don't know if adobes how many times adobes had toreinvent themselves because they've been around at least 30 40 years now.So I'm trying to think of some larger...

...companies that have been around a longtime and had to reinvent themselves multiple times. But even categorydesign as a, as a thing, hasn't been around for more than 30 years. Exactly, So we're earlypositioning was invented in the late 70s, right? So it's like a Ken ithasn't been that long. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I just think you see examples ofcompanies that do reinvent themselves long term, we're definitely havingtrouble breaking through a single s skirt in a sense like we haven't reallydone that. Yeah we this goes for countries as well or empires, We alwaysride one s curve and we never we never break our own business, Someone elsealways breaks us because we think we're number one there's definitely beencompanies that go through reinvention multiple times. Dave Ramsey is a goodexample because he's had big, he's had big launches and then dips and thenreinventions and then dips. I think he's gone through about three now,maybe he's probably four or five because he's he's they've been aroundlonger than what most people think. Remember he got really big in the latetwo thousands around the recession right? But I don't think he's gonethrough like a whole category reinvention, he's kind of been acategory, this is a different so he's a different conversation um creatingdifferent categories though is hard, like creating, creating one successfulcategory. And writing that is difficult enough doing it twice as like, man,that's now, you're like as if it wasn't a unicorn enough. Now you're a doubleunicorn to be a triple unicorn, that's kind of difficult. So sonograms goinggoing for that. He wants to design GTM, right, you don't have to create it, youjust have to design it and have a better to have the best narrativearound it. But hubspot, you know, let's just look at hubspot. They started withinbound marketing is the category. They had this flywheel Yeah, that was boundmarket, yep. Right, So they had a narrative around inbound marketingabout how the world had changed and how outbound was not going toproduce a good results for you the way the inbound was. Right then over time,they basically layered on complementary services until they, until it merited anew category. Right category are they in Now? I'm like looking at theirwebsite and I'm like, yeah, this is the number one, the number one crm forscaling for scaling companies is their tagline the number one crm for scalingcompanies. So they are trying to be number one Crn is the category thatthey've gone into. So they went from inbound marketing software to Crn andCrm with kind of a rev ups GTM narrative behind it. Right? So yeah,it's very interesting to me which which is the second level category that thesecompanies end up going towards off of their initial category, which is moreof like based around that problem product fit in the market place. But asthey expand to the platform, this is when the new category to call thisthing, this platform emerges. Right? So the number, the number one crm, forscaling companies, Okay, They're trying to differentiate from all the other crmis by saying for scaling, I don't know how much I agree with that, They'repretty big. I mean we use them and I've looked at a lot of Crm, so I'm like,yeah, I'd agree with that, that they'd be the number one for that level.They're definitely not in the small business category and they getdestroyed by salesforce in the enterprise. So I'd say they probably dohold the number one position as far as well. It's in my mind and I think inother people's minds, I think that's true. I think they are definitelynumber one, definitely number one. But it is in question came back frominbound marketing because obviously they see RMS became so helpful and justmarketing, the whole company pivoted...

...around it, just why they've addedcustomer success and all that kind of stuff to it. It's become a the centralsource of truth. We call it at sweet fish for information related to allthings in your business. Absolutely, Absolutely. Yeah. So I think there's aninteresting game playing out in that, in that market sale, that you can seehow it started. Salesforce started as the sales software, not the marketinginbound software, right? And you kind of see how those things evolve intoplatforms and you see how they label that afterwards, or how, how, how, howthey communicate that to the marketplace. Um, so yeah, I thinklooking looking at different companies and that trajectory and how they didthat good and bad, it is super useful. And, you know, I would just, I don't think hubspot, I think thatthey should move heavily into that community building phase now, this isthe way I'm thinking about it. Um I think that they did a great job withnarrative and category and now they know they acquired this um publicationcommunity. Yeah, but I believe, I believe that this is sort of theproblem with trying to be number one is you end up wanting to acquire thecommunity instead of building, because building it requires you to havehumility, as in like, no, we're all doing this together, it's our narrative,it's not my narrative. So whenever you see someone put number one next totheir name, you can they probably won't go all the way with the community stuff.I have my doubts, you know, that's interesting, interesting inside, if youhave to say your number one, then community might be a struggle, oftenpay attention to that and see if I find it to be true. It kind of makes sense.As I've been doing a lot of research and thought leadership, we all know thenumber rule number one rule of thought leadership is you can't call yourselfthat if you do, you're not the idea of companies calling themselves. Numberone is the exact same concept or personal branding. People callingthemselves number one at something, Right? Just design the category, builda community and let people call you that if they want, ma'am, that'spowerful. It's been a fantastic talk. If there's anything I didn't ask, but Ishould have asked, what would that be? And what is what are some finalthoughts for the audience is there considering and wrestling? I'm surethey're wrestling with it as much as we are at sweet fish around narrativecategory. In community. Any parting thoughts? Yeah, I would just say thatthere are activities that you can do where you are doing all three of thesephases. You're working on all three of them at the same time. So podcasting,you understand where I'm going with this. There are things you can do whereyou get insights in all three areas and you advance in all three areassimultaneously. So there are individual activities for each of these things.But trying to identify the core activities that that that nurture thegarden in each of these areas and aren't just kind of siloed into one.Right? I think that's how you can build uh momentum over time. That isinteresting. I am trying to I am wrestling with all three at the sametime and it's like tweaks, it's just subtle tweaks to the narrative whileyou're trying to frame the category and sometimes you're like, oh, I think wegot the right framing on the category. You're like, oh, but that doesn't itdoesn't fit the narrative we wrote last week, crap. Now I have to rewrite itbecause now the two don't fit in the meantime, you are continuing to moveforward and build community around this thing. You're usually including partsof the community in the conversation as you're testing it out with them. Right?So it is this collaborative process and I mean, my hope is that we finally getit all three to be right and then bam it clicks in, it spins, it createsmomentum. I think that if companies sort of come at it from this angle, Ithink that we'll have a healthier business environment uh in the longterm, and I think people will be...

...happier with their work in the longterm because this is really about, you know, purpose and unity making moneythrough purpose and unity as opposed to competition. Right? So yeah, that'skind of the philosophy of that wheel interesting. Would you recommend peopleinvite their competitors to be part of the conversation or just some customers?Well, if you here's the thing, if you've evolved the narrative enough,then you don't really have competitors in your mind. So if you haven't evolvedthe narrative enough, like you need, you need to get people who alreadybelieve in the thing you do. So if these are old competitors, previouscompetitors, they no longer are because you have evolved then you know, I don'tknow, trying to get them on board with the thing, it might be difficult, butif you move into another area and you just find players who believe in thesame thing and execute on that, you should invite all of those people, you should share the category with them.You should share the category with them and say, no, this is not our academy,my category, this is ours, Let's move this baby, right? And let's get somemomentum here and grow this market. That is the type of collaboration thatthat that that moves things. You know, It's part of the narrative. Eventhinking about sweet fishes narrative. Like the way we approach BTB podcastingis just different than all our competitors. And so just by naturallyme thinking about that, it actually excludes 90% because 90% don't thinkthe way we think and don't, we don't even have the same narrative like theway they approach podcasting. So but there are a few that I'm like actuallythere's probably like two that I'm like I'd invite them in and honestly there'senough market share to go around for all of us. So that makes sense becauseyou guys are gonna evolve the narrative anyways later on and split in differentdirections, like, like like sonogram and and this other company. Right? Sothis is the idea of that, that initial category creation. We want tocollaborate because we're moving something massive and inertia is strongto get this bad boy going. We need collaboration and unity here, uh, toget it going fast fast enough, right? Or else it'll just take forever. Soyeah, yeah. Man, I I think that the moral of the story on that, which isgreat because that's an underlying thing. I'm going to have to flush out abunch of documents, a bunch of decks on this on this cycle. But these are likethe underlying truths that you don't see necessarily on the surface on themodel. But if you talk about it and dig into it, you start to realize thesetypes of things, ma'am, I think you need to keep working on this flushingit out. Honestly, it would be a really fun book to read now, would read it orlisten to it at least. So as you continue, keep me up to date and uh ifyou have another breakthrough revelation about this working, we'llhave you back on the show to be a lot of fun. I know this has been insightfulfor me and I know we'll be insightful for the GDP growth audience, so thankyou so much for joining us on the show today. I appreciate that dan. Thankseveryone for listening. One of the things we've learned aboutpodcast audience growth is that word of mouth works. It works really, reallywell actually. So if you love this show, it would be awesome if you texted afriend to tell them about it. And if you send me a text with a screenshot ofthe text you sent to your friend meta, I know I'll send you a copy of my book,Content based networking how to instantly connect with anyone you wantto know. My cell phone number is 40749033 to 8 Happy texting.

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