B2B Growth: Your Daily B2B Marketing Podcast
B2B Growth: Your Daily B2B Marketing Podcast

Episode 2113 · 9 months ago

How Narrative, Category, & Community Work Together to Create a Brand Flywheel

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

In this episode, Dan Sanchez talks with Kalim Aull about his new model called the Brand Evolution Flywheel that incorporates a Strategic Narrative, Category Design, and Community Building into one fine art. 


Take a look at the visual model he created for reference: https://sweetfishmedia.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/07/Brand-Evolution-Flyweeh.png

Yeah, welcome back to BTB Growth. I'm dan Sanchez with Sweet fish Media and I'm here with Kaleem Oh, who is the co founder of Service Cycle Kaleem, Welcome to the show. Thanks dan. I appreciate being here with you because I guess I could say welcome back to the show. Is this actually the second time we've had you on the last couple of months? Callum is somebody that I see often on linkedin and he first popped up in a huge linkedin post that I had with a huge, like just a massive amount of comments were all arguing and talking about what the heck demand generation is because I was frustrated because after reading about it, I still wasn't any closer to understanding what the heck it actually was because it sounded like marketing sounded like everybody had different definitions and he stepped in with this awesome graphic that brought a lot of clarity to it. Now I ended up doing a show with them on that with Leslie crews who did a deep dive on GDP Growth just a few months ago and I know you were one of those episodes and that was great, It was super helpful, but recently he popped up again in my news feed with another in my opinion, like a game changing concept and I was like, I think James tagged me and it was like dan, you have to look at this and I'm like, yes, welcome back to the show because I wanted to talk about it and the concept that this is called the Brand Evolution Flywheel Right? And it incorporates three major parts of narrative Category and community. It just so happened to be three things that are like the hot topic and B2B marketing right now because everybody's talking about strategic narrative category design and building authentic communities and the way he pulled it together into this concentric circle where one plays into the other. It was a very fascinating concept now. It's when you look at the graphic and off the link to it in the show notes that will describe it in more detail as we go because we're going to talk about the three major sections of it. It's you have to kind of stare at it and it requires thought like you know, it's not as clear as the last graphic I saw where it's kind of like concentric circles of like a B. M. In the middle and then demanding and then brand on the outside. Like that was really simple, you understood it immediately. This one like actually take some study but still brings a lot of clarity to what I think there are three major topics that B two B community is talking about but is grappling with how to put them all together. So to kick it off, can you tell me a little bit about like where did this brand evolution flywheel come from? Like where did the Ah ha moment come to you? Yeah, you know, to be honest, it's a process, it's been a process of, you know, listening to experts in each of these individual areas, you know, you've got your Andy Raskin's for strategic narrative, you've got your Christopher lock heads for category design, you got your son ground batteries for community building, you know, I'm watching all these people listening to them, but I'm coming at it from more of a macro, you know, go to market type of look all the time and from the sustainable growth perspective of go to market. So, you know that that bigger GTM vision that I always have, combined with me seeing the value that all these people are are bringing, allowed me to start connecting the dots and see how these categories or phases play out over your GTM cycles. Right? So you'll be you'll you'll start out much more heavy on the narrative, even though technically you're doing all three of these things simultaneously all the time. It's not like 1, 2, 3, but it is like waiting, right? You're waiting, whichever phase matches your GTM position. Right? So what phase do you think people start with the most when it comes to narrative in this circle? He has it as a narrative on top, which kind of flows into category, which kind of flows into community and then flows back into narrative, which one is the starting point since it's a circle. So look, you...

...can frame this model uh in many ways you could choose your own starting point, in a sense, there's no problem with, you know, you might have been building good relationships in the sense of community before you figured out your narrative totally. And that's what kind of revealed your narrative to you in the first place. They're also connected that there isn't really a starting point, but I could evolve first on purpose because it is like there is a prioritization because you can't really build community effectively and efficiently and and make it happen at the scale that's required without a truly evolved narrative. It's like the first requirement of everything in order to have something that's worth unifying around. Right? I mean, you can't launch out the gate thinking you have it all together, it always is an evolution. It's always a thing that has to be figured out over time, totally, totally. And I think that, you know what we're what I'm, what I'm trying to suggest here is that the purpose of all this is to create a unity around something massive unity around something that's what the purpose of narrative is and category, It's not, in my opinion, it's not to be number one you end up leading the category, that's just a byproduct. But if you think you're number one you may fall into the trap And you may end around one Cycle and you may not reinvent yourself because you think you're number one and so you don't learn from the community, You don't build community at a level that reveals the next narrative evolution, Right? So I'm very wary of even calling myself number one. I get nervous about that. I'm like, whoa, no, hold on, hold on, hold on, hold on. The market will decide I'm number one or not. I don't have to say that for myself, right? But my goal is to always have all that narrative and then create unity around it. It makes sense. So, it could start with community, could start with narrative, I'd be hard pressed to say it starts with category because usually category has to start with the narrative of some kind. If you don't have a narrative, you probably don't have a category. Even as I think back to Sweet Fish Media and the narrative we've been telling you probably actually started in community because James is just so relational, he knows so many people, has been collaborating with lots of people and then out of that, the narrative around BdB podcasting has been forming, which is kind of created a category around B two B podcasting over the years and now it's it's I can see it swinging back into community is where even now trying to figure out how to create a stronger community than there already is, so around and round it spins. But let's start at like narrative because I feel like a lot of things probably could start their, oftentimes people start companies because they're like I'm scratching my own itch, I had a problem, which is the beginning of a narrative, right? Um I know that's how you got started. Now, Sweet Fish got started. James, James wanted a way to meet more people and he discovered that podcasting was a great way to get conversations with lots of people um on top of making great content and that's how He started the way he does B two B podcasting. So when you look at narrative, How does it start with that and what can companies look at two kind of kick start this process? Yeah, so you know, I I do I do come from the stance of solving your own problems first. You know, I believe that personal frustration, personal struggle, it is the raw material through which great narratives are built. So, you know, I I think that we do, I think we do too much of trying to kind of write narratives for other people a little...

...bit when I think that you have a better probability of success if you can solve your own problems and evolve that narrative for yourself. Most of the successful companies that I've seen or people actually not even companies, just people, right, they saw they have a period of frustration, there's some sort of problem and over time they figure out a new better way because there is no alternative, like the problem is so irritating to them that they are like destined to bring that new approach. So I think that, you know, a lot of people will jump into the old world, new world, old game, new game, which is perfect. I'm 100% on board. This is how you finalize it into a deck, Right? But that all that came from, you know, the garden of frustration. If it doesn't, you risk you risk potentially confusing, seen, um, if you're guessing a little bit too much, there is something powerful about the founder's story. Probably one of the most powerful narratives you can have is that narrative I realized not everybody starts with that narrative, though, you might have bought that company, you might have inherited the company, you might have risen up the ranks and it wasn't your story, but now you're the ceo of the company right there. There's many reasons why it might not be your thing or you just started a spotted a market opportunity. You were familiar enough with the field and you capitalized on it, even though it wasn't your problem, um, to begin with. So it's not always, you don't always have the luxury of having that though if you do. And that's such a, that's such a strategic advantage that you have over others in the market to be because you have a, you have the feel yourself. It's not like you need to go talk to your customers so you still need to talk to them, but you don't have to do it quite as much to have an intuitive feeling whether something rings true or not with the product and with the marketing and messaging. So there's something about that, it is really strong. What would you say for everybody else? I mean, do you try to look at the old game, new game? Yeah. So that's the ideal. I'm painting the ideal for you there the other way can work. So it's not like, you know, an ultimatum or anything. Uh if you are in that situation where you don't you just you took over the ceo role and now you're running running the business and you know, the division is with you. I would hire somebody, I would hire somebody either either you are that customer in a sense or you need somebody who does this, right, Andy Raskin or there's many others, right? But that's the first name that comes to my mind. So I I do think that either you have that personal experience that frustration and you solve the problem for yourself. So you are that you are one of the segments of customers in a sense, or you that's not the case. And you need to collaborate to have a higher level of capability to be able to find it exactly. So that's how we discover the narrative. How does that bleed over into the category? Yeah. Okay, so here's the thing is I believe that the narrative will tell you what the category is. If you do, if you flush it out, well, the word will surface once the narrative is clear enough, the word becomes obvious or the two words whatever the category is called. So I think that what you start to notice as you get through these, you know, old game, new game, old world, new world, old behavior and new behavior. Old results, new results, right? If you flush all those out all of a sudden, the words that you used to describe those things, the category comes out at you because you're describing the essence of old and new in such a precise way that it's almost begging for this word, right? I think the problem is when...

...people start brainstorming like category names a little bit too much, Instead of just focusing 100% of the narrative and letting that be, letting that be revealed, letting you reveal itself to a great extent. I think the category has to be greatly organic. I never sat down and was like, sustainable growth, you know, and brainstormed a whole bunch of other names for categories. So I think that my narrative, I knew my narratives intuitively, really well and sustainable growth was just like the term that described clearly what I'm talking about. So let's talk about a few people that have been doing this well, like, let's reverse engineer what the narrative is, behind a few categories that have been buzzing around a lot. Let's start with account based marketing. What's the narrative? So, well, the company's marketing, the narrative is uh, quality is the new game, and quantity is the old game. Quality relationships is the new game, quantity relationships is the old game before we were due organization. Everybody now we're just targeting a few prioritization game. Right? The old the old game is uh, I don't know what the opposite of prioritization is. Its its target accounts. I'm sorry, It's target audience versus target accounts. It's very different. Target audience is described through demographic psychographic. Stargate accounts are using firma graphics, not even firma graphics. It's not even types, it's specifically these companies, right? Which is a very different approach, very different approach. So, A A b M, a b M says that, You know, 3% of your people are going to outperform The other 97%, basically, uh by a multiple saying that there's this tiny second of people that's actually meant to be in a relationship with you. So, the older ways kind of suggest that, you know, we can just kind of have more mediocre relationships and that's not going to pull down. It's not going to weigh down our ship, right? So, yeah, I mean, that's a B M is a great, a great example. You go and go to demand gen, right legion manage. And it's funny, both both of them have a very different, they both come out of a frustration and that marketing B2B marketing is not working, but both have different, a different way of emphasizing and a different narrative behind them, right? With a BMX, we're not targeting the right accounts or we're targeting too many accounts with demand jin, it's we're not getting ahead of people, right? I mean, chris walker, we the MQM is dead, we're just generating bad leads, you know, instead of actually helping people desire what we're even offering. Yes, we need to get ahead by generating demand instead of capturing demand. I think it's the drum of demand jin get ahead of it, generate demand before it's just capturing it. Otherwise somebody else will generate it and capture it. If you generate it, you generally capture it. Right? And that's kind of the thing, they're linked together. Yeah, so so yeah, demand gen is a great one. We could do um gong right, goodbye opinions. Hello! Reality! Revenue Intelligence is kind of the kevin now. Their narrative is interesting because I've heard, yeah, he was on the show recently and talking about how the narrative came out of well, we wanted to be able to sell to uh Cros and they weren't buying our previous narrative, they weren't buying because we didn't have a category. We were a sales call center tool instead of a revenue tool. So we changed the category specifically to target enterprise level cros who weren't interested in our thing. We wanted to make them interested in our things. So we changed, we created everything around this category called Revenue Intelligence, so that the sierra would pay attention, but it doesn't come out of like a dying need. Okay, so their situation is more of the is more of the...

...other situation that we're talking about where, you know, there's investors and there's, you know, funding and there's a Ceo who comes in and CMO and we'll be able to block. I just think that they hired Andy Raskin did. They worked with somebody who's talking with us the whole time building the narrative. So, so it just goes to show you they didn't do that in a bubble. You know, isolated siloed, they went to someone who's been doing this their entire career and he facilitated that process for them and eventually they stuck with something, right, and it work. So yeah, it's really sometimes sometimes it is literally solving your own problems, a massive problem and creating that new approach, or it's like you already have a new approach to something, but you're just not framing it correctly. So people understand you and that was their situation. They're like, people don't actually care about what we're calling this thing, like we're calling it something that's absolutely killing us. Instead of coming up with something original essentially becomes a repositioning play. But you're repositioning in a new category, you're taking something you already do well and refocusing it, which is why category design ultimately falls under positioning as a, I guess, a marketing term. So we've talked a lot about narrative, we've talked about how it informs the category. Let's talk about how the category informs the community. And I've heard a lot of people say like, you don't really have a category until you have a community, like the evidence of a community shows that you actually have a real category. Yes. Yes and no, it's both. So it's a complicated answer. Yes. The community is the category. You design the category to build the community. That is the purpose of designing the category in my mind, Right? So they are connected so tightly, like they're almost one, right? However, there's there's a reason why separated those two things into phases, because I was highlighting the differences between that. So, for me, I see the category design um as designing your educational materials and facilitation, community facilitation process, right? There's this new approach and you're calling it this thing. But do you have the wealth of of resources? Do you have those capabilities there for the community to take advantage of? So that you can facilitate success at scale because the category happens when their success at scale uh to me. Right. And so if you're looking at category design is just like a way to own some sort of term, I think you're missing out on a large part of the final and the revenue. So I suggest always looking at category design as your your facilitation process. How are you going to make things easier for people to act upon and actually do stuff? Right. If we want people to start podcasts, we have to make it easier for them to start podcasts. Somehow. If we want people to change from legions of demand jin we have to make it easier for them to make those moves without us. Right. And so the category design is a lot about facilitating community success. Hey, everybody Logan with sweet fish here. If you've been listening to the show for a while, you know, we're big proponents of putting out original organic content on linked in. But one thing that's always been a struggle for a team like ours is to easily track the reach of that linked in content. That's why I was really excited when I heard about Shield the other day from a connection on you guessed it linked in since our team started using Shield. I've loved how it's led us easily track and analyze the performance of Arlington content without having to manually log it ourselves. It automatically creates reports and generate some dashboards that are...

...incredibly useful to see things like what contents been performing the best and what days of the week are we getting the most engagement and our average views per post. I highly suggest you guys check out this tool if you're putting out content on linked in and if you're not, you should be, it's been a game changer for us. If you go to shield app dot ai and check out the 10 day free trial, you can even use our promo code B two B growth to get a 25% discount again, that's shield app dot Ai. And that promo code is B the number two. The growth. All one word. All right, let's get back to the show. As you were talking. It occurred to me like with the narrative, you have the y with the category, you have the what with the community, you have the who? It's almost like Simon cynics like golden circles or whatever, but you're dropping the the how with the who. But you have to start with the compelling why. That's the reason why we're all here. The reason why the what is so important, which is the category. It's a new way of thinking, it's a new methodology, it's a new framework or way of doing things. Um but it's all informed by the why, which is why you have to sometimes you can you run into a compelling, like what how to do things, but you don't have a computer, you have to figure out why people should care, right? Which is why the narrative so important. And if they don't have a reason to care, it's kind of like it just kind of gets lumped in with everything else and people forget about it. But if you come up with the compelling why and how in a way to approach that why, which is the category, then the community cares, and that's where a lot of other people start to get around it. Is that about right? That's brilliant, man. That's brilliant. I love matching you know, uh why? What? How and who, why? What, how and who around this. I think that's a beautiful, beautiful comparison. That's a beautiful comparison down. Let me go making progress together. So we're around this circle, let's bring it back. So, we have the narrative, we have a compelling why we have the category, which is the how we're addressing this. Why? And now we have a bunch of people that are that are nodding their heads with us and saying yes, this is the way, you know, which is like your most probably the most common hashtag I see you throwing out there. Um um so we have a community around this new way of doing things to address the why? How does that come back to inform the why? Okay, that's good. That's good. Okay, So yeah, basically what happens is the companies that That designed the category just to be # one. Don't end up building the community. Right. Okay. The companies that design a category with the intent of building the community and that building the community and facilitating community success. So what ends up happening in that community building process is that you are seeing your approach, your methodology, playing out at scale and you're engaging and interacting with the people who are applying that methodology, right? And you're getting such a good diversity of examples in the community that another level of clarity starts to emerge over time and becomes another problem. Another problem emerges so that we can get to the next level of success, right? So the community shows you a bigger problem that's connected to your original problem, but it's the next one on the ladder, right? It's the next logical problem that's going to occur for your community. So, I think that the people who get too caught up in just the company, the GTM, the company part of the go to market, right? And they neglect that wider, looser community building part of the process. They...

...never end up getting the type of perspective, customer perspective or player perspective people who are playing this game right? They are generally focused on the numbers from their own customers are getting new customers, but they're not actually focused on the success stories or the failure stories, which is where those insights emerged from. It's interesting. I'm trying to think of examples of companies making the jump more than once. I'll probably think of some though, I can think of a few that are making the jump now. I mean totally the A. B. M. Communities totally making jump. Sand grams making his move with his next book trying to evolve as as the A B. M community has gotten bigger and has identified problems with the approach because it's not a one size fits all. There are nuances to it. So naturally the community is going to evolve in demand base is taking their narrative is trying to trying to apply their what they think is the narrative is with A B X. And I think Sandra is taking a more GTM approach with his question right? It's funny to see which one of them actually has the narrative. Right? That's exactly it. So if I am correct, maybe I'm not correct. Let's just see how it goes. If I'm correct, then some drums way is a better way. Unless I don't know something about the man base where they built this great community and they found all this out to the community. Maybe that's true, right? But if we're going to play out like a science experiment, this is a good test of whether the community reveals a better narrative or whether you can kind of just piece that together without, without that, you know, so one live, I don't actually understand the nuances of how Sandra was doing it. I understand demand basis route. I actually even talk to Sandra about it and I was like, I'm still, I'm still waiting for his book to come out and then I'll probably understand demand base is coming out an approach of like A B. X. Is taking a BM and working it through the whole life cycle of the account. Like why do we just leave it as a marketing sales thing? Let's work it through as a customer success thing and retention thing a turn things like you should be the whole the whole company should be focused on A B. M. Right? Yeah. I think that's where they're going with it. He just right. What can I haven't read it. But I think from what I've heard from him, john miller, I agree with that. I agree with that 100% to me. To be honest, A B. M. Is shifted two thirds to your current clients. It's not even like that. I'm just coming with a number but it's hedged towards your current clients. That that's actually what it says because you're, you're expanding an account. The whole concept of A B. M. Is to expand accounts. There's an appreciation, content of appreciation happening in a BM over time. So I think, I think that they, I think they're both right. You know, like GTM there is this orchestration between marketing and customer success or marketing sales and customer success, right? There also is this truth that A B. M. Is a full life cycle uh strategy, Right? And so what's beautiful is that these two companies have agreed to no longer compete? Yeah, it's true. They're splitting, splitting the IBM community and they're different fields and we'll see which one becomes the bigger, more profitable one. Or maybe they both because it's not a zero sum game. Maybe both are wildly successful, right? I think that's a problem and I hope, I hope the best for beth because they're both doing some cool stuff. We're still having a hard time. I can think of a few that have made the jump once. I can't think of a single company that's made the jump multiple times now. It takes probably a decade or two to jump more than twice, so Oh my God, maybe I just haven't been in the market long enough myself to actually watch it happening. So I'm like, I don't know if adobes how many times adobes had to reinvent themselves because they've been around at least 30 40 years now. So I'm trying to think of some larger...

...companies that have been around a long time and had to reinvent themselves multiple times. But even category design as a, as a thing, hasn't been around for more than 30 years. Exactly, So we're early positioning was invented in the late 70s, right? So it's like a Ken it hasn't been that long. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I just think you see examples of companies that do reinvent themselves long term, we're definitely having trouble breaking through a single s skirt in a sense like we haven't really done that. Yeah we this goes for countries as well or empires, We always ride one s curve and we never we never break our own business, Someone else always breaks us because we think we're number one there's definitely been companies that go through reinvention multiple times. Dave Ramsey is a good example because he's had big, he's had big launches and then dips and then reinventions and then dips. I think he's gone through about three now, maybe he's probably four or five because he's he's they've been around longer than what most people think. Remember he got really big in the late two thousands around the recession right? But I don't think he's gone through like a whole category reinvention, he's kind of been a category, this is a different so he's a different conversation um creating different categories though is hard, like creating, creating one successful category. And writing that is difficult enough doing it twice as like, man, that's now, you're like as if it wasn't a unicorn enough. Now you're a double unicorn to be a triple unicorn, that's kind of difficult. So sonograms going going for that. He wants to design GTM, right, you don't have to create it, you just have to design it and have a better to have the best narrative around it. But hubspot, you know, let's just look at hubspot. They started with inbound marketing is the category. They had this flywheel Yeah, that was bound market, yep. Right, So they had a narrative around inbound marketing about how the world had changed and how outbound was not going to produce a good results for you the way the inbound was. Right then over time, they basically layered on complementary services until they, until it merited a new category. Right category are they in Now? I'm like looking at their website and I'm like, yeah, this is the number one, the number one crm for scaling for scaling companies is their tagline the number one crm for scaling companies. So they are trying to be number one Crn is the category that they've gone into. So they went from inbound marketing software to Crn and Crm with kind of a rev ups GTM narrative behind it. Right? So yeah, it's very interesting to me which which is the second level category that these companies end up going towards off of their initial category, which is more of like based around that problem product fit in the market place. But as they expand to the platform, this is when the new category to call this thing, this platform emerges. Right? So the number, the number one crm, for scaling companies, Okay, They're trying to differentiate from all the other crm is by saying for scaling, I don't know how much I agree with that, They're pretty big. I mean we use them and I've looked at a lot of Crm, so I'm like, yeah, I'd agree with that, that they'd be the number one for that level. They're definitely not in the small business category and they get destroyed by salesforce in the enterprise. So I'd say they probably do hold the number one position as far as well. It's in my mind and I think in other people's minds, I think that's true. I think they are definitely number one, definitely number one. But it is in question came back from inbound marketing because obviously they see RMS became so helpful and just marketing, the whole company pivoted...

...around it, just why they've added customer success and all that kind of stuff to it. It's become a the central source of truth. We call it at sweet fish for information related to all things in your business. Absolutely, Absolutely. Yeah. So I think there's an interesting game playing out in that, in that market sale, that you can see how it started. Salesforce started as the sales software, not the marketing inbound software, right? And you kind of see how those things evolve into platforms and you see how they label that afterwards, or how, how, how, how they communicate that to the marketplace. Um, so yeah, I think looking looking at different companies and that trajectory and how they did that good and bad, it is super useful. And, you know, I would just, I don't think hubspot, I think that they should move heavily into that community building phase now, this is the way I'm thinking about it. Um I think that they did a great job with narrative and category and now they know they acquired this um publication community. Yeah, but I believe, I believe that this is sort of the problem with trying to be number one is you end up wanting to acquire the community instead of building, because building it requires you to have humility, as in like, no, we're all doing this together, it's our narrative, it's not my narrative. So whenever you see someone put number one next to their name, you can they probably won't go all the way with the community stuff. I have my doubts, you know, that's interesting, interesting inside, if you have to say your number one, then community might be a struggle, often pay attention to that and see if I find it to be true. It kind of makes sense. As I've been doing a lot of research and thought leadership, we all know the number rule number one rule of thought leadership is you can't call yourself that if you do, you're not the idea of companies calling themselves. Number one is the exact same concept or personal branding. People calling themselves number one at something, Right? Just design the category, build a community and let people call you that if they want, ma'am, that's powerful. It's been a fantastic talk. If there's anything I didn't ask, but I should have asked, what would that be? And what is what are some final thoughts for the audience is there considering and wrestling? I'm sure they're wrestling with it as much as we are at sweet fish around narrative category. In community. Any parting thoughts? Yeah, I would just say that there are activities that you can do where you are doing all three of these phases. You're working on all three of them at the same time. So podcasting, you understand where I'm going with this. There are things you can do where you get insights in all three areas and you advance in all three areas simultaneously. So there are individual activities for each of these things. But trying to identify the core activities that that that nurture the garden in each of these areas and aren't just kind of siloed into one. Right? I think that's how you can build uh momentum over time. That is interesting. I am trying to I am wrestling with all three at the same time and it's like tweaks, it's just subtle tweaks to the narrative while you're trying to frame the category and sometimes you're like, oh, I think we got the right framing on the category. You're like, oh, but that doesn't it doesn't fit the narrative we wrote last week, crap. Now I have to rewrite it because now the two don't fit in the meantime, you are continuing to move forward and build community around this thing. You're usually including parts of the community in the conversation as you're testing it out with them. Right? So it is this collaborative process and I mean, my hope is that we finally get it all three to be right and then bam it clicks in, it spins, it creates momentum. I think that if companies sort of come at it from this angle, I think that we'll have a healthier business environment uh in the long term, and I think people will be...

...happier with their work in the long term because this is really about, you know, purpose and unity making money through purpose and unity as opposed to competition. Right? So yeah, that's kind of the philosophy of that wheel interesting. Would you recommend people invite their competitors to be part of the conversation or just some customers? Well, if you here's the thing, if you've evolved the narrative enough, then you don't really have competitors in your mind. So if you haven't evolved the narrative enough, like you need, you need to get people who already believe in the thing you do. So if these are old competitors, previous competitors, they no longer are because you have evolved then you know, I don't know, trying to get them on board with the thing, it might be difficult, but if you move into another area and you just find players who believe in the same thing and execute on that, you should invite all of those people, you should share the category with them. You should share the category with them and say, no, this is not our academy, my category, this is ours, Let's move this baby, right? And let's get some momentum here and grow this market. That is the type of collaboration that that that that moves things. You know, It's part of the narrative. Even thinking about sweet fishes narrative. Like the way we approach BTB podcasting is just different than all our competitors. And so just by naturally me thinking about that, it actually excludes 90% because 90% don't think the way we think and don't, we don't even have the same narrative like the way they approach podcasting. So but there are a few that I'm like actually there's probably like two that I'm like I'd invite them in and honestly there's enough market share to go around for all of us. So that makes sense because you guys are gonna evolve the narrative anyways later on and split in different directions, like, like like sonogram and and this other company. Right? So this is the idea of that, that initial category creation. We want to collaborate because we're moving something massive and inertia is strong to get this bad boy going. We need collaboration and unity here, uh, to get it going fast fast enough, right? Or else it'll just take forever. So yeah, yeah. Man, I I think that the moral of the story on that, which is great because that's an underlying thing. I'm going to have to flush out a bunch of documents, a bunch of decks on this on this cycle. But these are like the underlying truths that you don't see necessarily on the surface on the model. But if you talk about it and dig into it, you start to realize these types of things, ma'am, I think you need to keep working on this flushing it out. Honestly, it would be a really fun book to read now, would read it or listen to it at least. So as you continue, keep me up to date and uh if you have another breakthrough revelation about this working, we'll have you back on the show to be a lot of fun. I know this has been insightful for me and I know we'll be insightful for the GDP growth audience, so thank you so much for joining us on the show today. I appreciate that dan. Thanks everyone for listening. One of the things we've learned about podcast audience growth is that word of mouth works. It works really, really well actually. So if you love this show, it would be awesome if you texted a friend to tell them about it. And if you send me a text with a screenshot of the text you sent to your friend meta, I know I'll send you a copy of my book, Content based networking how to instantly connect with anyone you want to know. My cell phone number is 40749033 to 8 Happy texting.

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