The Enemies of Quality Communication, with Bunny Tharpe

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

In this episode, Benji talks to Bunny Tharpe, Vice President of Marketing at Quark.

With a background in PR and Journalism, words and language matter deeply to Bunny. She explains why they should matter to every marketer and we discuss the power of a move from passive to active language.

Conversations from the front lines and marketing. This is be tob growth, this is BTB growth. Coming to you from just outside Austin, Texas, I'm your host, Benjie Block, and joining me from Nashville, Tennessee director of growth here at sweet fish, Dan Sanchez, and from Louisville, Kentucky, are creative content lead Emily Brady. So here in about ten minutes you're going to actually hear a full conversation with Bunny Tharpe and interview that I did. She's the vice president of marketing at Cork. But before today's feature conversation, we're here for a little bit of a show and tell. We're going to take just the next few minutes to highlight something that we saw from in and around marketing this week and today. I'm going to hand it over to emily. Emily, what are you paying attention to? Yeah, I read a post on Linkedin this week that says a business gets marketing if it allows experiments and that we should allow experiments and embrace failure. And this is an ongoing conversation. It's something that we talked about internally a lot too, so I thought it'd be interesting to bring up and see what y'all's opinions are our experimentation and how that's worked for us and that kind of thing. Go give me your thoughts first. What you read that? You're like, Yay, experimentation. People look at sweet fish and they go they experiment. I'm sure that's like one of the first words that came to my mind when I was doing research about sweet fish. But talk to me a little about your thoughts. Yeah, well, I think I'm pretty close to this. Have my hands in this a lot. On Social and we've done this with our evangelist program. On linkedin, was sort of just like shoot, let's give it a shot. We've seen other people do it and we built a framework for it and tested it out and at that paid off for us. And now it's tick tock and that's kind of a scarier thing, as should be. Be Brands on Tick Tock and I just jumped on that and experimented with my own personal account before I did one for sweet fish. But it doesn't always work for us. We tried to do more posting from our company page earlier this year. We tried to make some videos, make a sort of linkedin campaign and didn't see the results that we wanted to see and thankfully there was really no loss on those ones. It was just like, oh well, that kind of sucks that it didn't work out, but we just get up and keep moving forward. So I'm a fan of experimentation just because it's a big part of my job on social but I do think that you have to have experimentation within reason. Obviously you have to have some sort of goal for it, but that's been my experience. Buzz word is experimentation in my mind, because I can't go a conversation with talking to a CMO or a director of marketing without them saying like our team loves experimentation. It's like show me the proof, because to me, when I think of experimentation, it's awesome to consider. But how you actually facilitate that as a leader, to make sure that you're doing it consistently and not just on a whim because it's something you're personally interested in? Like we like running experiments when we're interested in a platform, when we're intrigued by something, or maybe it's because our boss told us we had to experiment with it, but things that, like other people are seeing results from that. Maybe our outside our typical scope, but we're going, oh, like that could be interesting, we should run an experiment, even though it's not necessarily what we typically do. That's more what I think of when I think of experimentation, because I love I'm curious. I'm naturally like poke and holes at things and asking questions about stuff. But I've realized there's a difference between curiosity and experimentation and I do think a large part of experimentation is trying things that maybe naturally we straight up wouldn't or doing things that...

...are very difficult to do for a short period of time and then testing results. So I like the word. I wonder how it actually flushes out within organizations and and one other thing I'll say on this and then Dan, I'll get your thoughts. But because of the rise and the companies we work with right tech SASS like, experimentation is touted. It's always in the conversation and it's it's something that they are decent, we good at and have like that's what new companies do, is they experiment. So I'm glad that it's in the dialog. It's just a matter of like, how are we actually doing it and not just saying it. I don't think very many marketers disagree that experimentation is a good thing, that we should be doing it. I think you're right, vend you. The question is, how do we do it, like, what's the strategy for it? And a lot of times to giving teams the freedom to experiments, but to experiment within some sort of framework. So I think, yeah, the bigger point here is how do we do experimentation? Well, yeah, I think I'd like to play a little bit of the devil's advocate and kind of show, like the opposite side of what happens when you have a culture of experimentation. Who Culture but another buzz word on top of buzz word? Right, we're all about the buzz. First, I will say that I'm a fan of experimentation in general. Fact, one of my favorite quotes comes from Peter Drucker when he says marketing and innovation make money. Everything else is cost and of course there's not just innovation and marketing. There's innovation in marketing, which is one of the most fun things that ever play with, and I find that they're especially when you're working with the team of creatives. There are plenty of ideas to go around, mainly because a lot of people are surfing blogs and social media, especially Linkedin. There's lots of ideas floating around, and so there are a lot of ideas. The challenge can be how to actually test them properly and actually evaluate some ideas. And the problem is you're, if you're a marketing leader, you're looking at a lot of these ideas. So of them on your own, a lot of them come from your team. You're like, some of these ideas it's so good. In fact they're downright bad, but I don't know if I want to hurt that person's feeling. So what do we do about that? Some of them are good, some of them are bad, some of them are you think are batter, actually are good, and some of them you think are good and actually are bad. So how do you sort through them? All right, I know there's been one thing I've done that I think is somewhat successful in doing this, though there's so much room for improvement here and I think a lot of other leaders have created great grids for this. One thing I have done is that I generally find trying to take the idea and get it to its smallest possible form, like a minimum viable ideam MVP minimum viable product of an idea, but I task the person who has the idea to execute almost all of it. If they need a little bit of resources, that's fine, and I don't mean depends on your budget of sore as what a little bit is to go and execute it, but they pretty much have to get it done mostly by themselves with minimal resources. If they can validate it, then that's great and I usually do it first by having them write a proposal for it to even then go and spend some of their a week or two working on it. Because if they don't have enough effort and passion behind the idea to write me a one to two page proposal of like just covering the five w's, and how then are they really get to execute on it? They can't even lay it out in print, then they're probably not as interested in it as I would hope. It's kind of a barrier. I use it to kill but ideas where people don't really believe in it, because very few people come back with the one to two page but if they do, I'm like Ah, not only is it more clear of what you want to do with it and why and how you're going to do it and what you need to get it done. But now you have a roadmap for yourself to go and actually execute it and it's clear to everybody else what this is and why. I think that all the time with authors that I interview around content, because I'm going you took the time to write a freaking book, so like, of course I want to talk to you because you've thought through your ideas. Even the books that I don't agree with, I'm like, at least you fleshed out your ideas over the...

...course of chapters and like you've put in the time. That is part of unfortunately, with how fast marketing can move these days, we don't take the time to think through the strategy. So it's like it's two sides to it, because you could experiment, if it's a nonpaid marketing channel, experiment the heck out of that in it come back two weeks a month. Like Emily your you brought up a number of the experiments we've run that didn't cost us anything except for time, which you don't want it to eat your entire schedule, but if it you can put in a block of time. Like you're really not actually hurting the business significantly by putting in some effort. They're running in experiment and learning. Once you start getting into it, eating either too much of your time, because it is then technically eating revenue, like in eating money, then you got to reevaluate, but also, like what other paid sources or are you trying and experimenting with? And that's where I think we run into a like to different methodology, different conversations. To me, experimentation is like, show me the method that you have to run experiments, like what's the avenue? Who's who's thinking about that consistently for you? Don't just tell me that when you think of something, you run an experiment, but like what's the recurring meetings that you hold to make sure that there's experiments being run? And once you have that sort of it can create its own momentum over time because you know, okay, and this meeting it's going to come up, we're going to that's going to trigger the next thing. Someone's going to leave that meeting with the task to do something and actually go run and experiment come back with Dan. I love, even on the Front End, having why you would do it on the back end or right up on like what worked, what didn't work, should we continue, should we not continue? And once you have that going, you can say, not only is it something we value, like as the word, but here's how we value it and how it's happening consistently for us. One thought I have for those who don't think people will like their ideas that I've tried a couple of times now and it's worked pretty well, is if you have an idea and you have a culture that isn't very friendly to ideas or they need to see like a fricking textbook of proof that it's going to work before you even test it happens. I've been asked like how do we know that's going to work, and it's like a social campaign that takes like six months to prove. Sometimes I just take it as a side project or I build it on the side, like literally in my free time, and then present sent it and then it becomes the thing. Like once I rebuilt and I wanted to change like this system that ran a bunch of word a, not word press. I was going to try to this is back in the days when the word press wasn't as popular as a content management system. I put one of the major sites of this company on Word Press and I've literally rebuilt the whole site and I was like they're like, oh, what would that look like to have it done? I'm like, well, actually, I already have it done. Did it, pulled it up on a weird domain name that I had here it is look, it works. They're like clicking around. They're like, oh my gosh, how much will this cost to do for the whole thing? I'm like, well, it'll probably take me like eight months to all the other websites, but this is what it would look like and this is how much money it'll save. It took me, I slid two weekends to get that done, but it changed my the course of my career because I was able to take this major company and read you all their websites, which, as a twenty two year old at the time, I had really no business doing. But sometimes you have to go and do it elsewhere to prove that it works, and that will happen with social media, can happen with email. There's probably some places where you can't do this well, like ad spend. You can't just take your personal money and start throwing into facebook ads to prove that it works as well. You can. Chris Walker did, but it's a little harder. But with ads and stuff like that, you could also show some proof by others stats and you could do you could do some things there where you don't have to first build it. You could just bear it out in some other ways if you can collect the data, which you can. So I think that's helpful in that and but you're hitting on something to where it's like us personally being people of experimentation. As...

...marketers, like that's one of the top traits you want in somebody if they're willing to experiment and like try new things. That ultimately, with how fast things move, you do want someone that naturally has that bend. Emily, what are you thinking over there? Well, I just what Dan just said is really at idea to try something on the side in your off time, and it makes me think too about like even podcasting. Like we have a lot of people who have their own personal podcasts and I think that that transitions really well into like, oh well, I tried this on my podcast, maybe it'll work really well for the company PODCAST. So it's cool how that all ties in and I know for me personally, like I've done it with social to like I started tick tock in my offtime and now I do it for sweetfish, and so that's a really good ad Dan. I appreciate that. Okay, here's the deal. I think when it comes to experimentation, we all can continue to look at what's I love the idea of doing audits of our time. So just think of like, is there any space in your calendar to actually be executing on this? And then, if you lead a team, like what are some ways that you have baked into your team that you want to have a culture of experimentation? I remember I did a conversation with Lisa Cocks. She's the director of marketing at teak and twine, and she was even experimenting with this, like I'm going to give each of my team members a certain amount of money, not so much that it's like gonna, you know, burn the budget, but enough that they can actually run an event or they could run an ad or they could they'd had budget, to run whatever kind of thing they want to experiment with and then come back with what they learned. And that's one of the ways that they were using in creating this culture of learning and experimentation. There's a million ways you can do it. To me it's more of are you talking about the experiments you're running? And once you have that like in place, make sure it's a flywheel of sorts so that you start and then reevaluate, start and reevaluate and continue to hone it. So fun conversation, Emily. Thanks for bringing that and we're going to jump now to a conversation that I had with Bunny Tharp, vice president of marketing at Cork, talking all about the art and the power of communication. Enjoy. Welcome to be to be growth. I'm your host, Benjie Block, and today I am joined by Bunny Tharp. She is the vice president of marketing at Cork. Bunny, welcome to be tob growth. Thanks, Bingie, it is a pleasure to have you with us. I know you have a background in PR and journalism, so words and language really matter to you and to our audience. Right more broadly, as marketers, we really care about the words that were using, but I mean when I say they really matter to bunny, I mean they really really matter it, bunny. So what I want to do right from the beginning is I want to actually ask you. Do you have one or two kind of pet peeves around word choice or copywriting that you immediately think of? Oh, I have lots of pet peeves, but one of the main ones that bothers me these days across everything is when folks don't know the difference between their plurals and their possessives. That really drops me inside. Give me an example. Give me something that you've if you've seen it recently, or just something just as an example of you know, I love s music right, so s in that instance would be possessive, but if I talked about I love the s as the decade, that would be plural. MMM MMM, she's getting gonna give us an English lesson today. It careful about how you throw those apostrophees around. Let me tell you this. I am so guilty of being poor with the way that I write and think about things like that that...

I have to double triple check. grammarly is my friend. So get you either somebody that can check it for you, or we have tons of tools. People use the tools. I totally agree. We got to be double checking. So that's a good example. All right. So here's the deal. The artic communication is vital and it's something that you think a lot about and I thought it would be really fun to do an episode where we dive deep into some of this stuff. It has such a positive impact on every aspect of our life if we continue to improve our own personal art of communication. And then clearly, right today we're talking to an audience of be tob marketers, and so tell me some in this specific instance around be to be marketing. Tell me what is some of the tensions that you manage in writing specifically for this space. Well, be to be does not mean boring to boring, it may sometimes it does. That is definitely a tension in trying to remember that you're talking to fellow humans and that they have emotions and that they have senses of humor and that you can appeal to that and use that to your advantage because, as you said, communication is extremely important. It is how we express ourselves and it is how we connect with other people. Hmm, what do you feel are the enemies of quality communication? Well, I'm a big Fan of what I call the net net. The main point is to make the main point. The main point I am frustrated by, and will also giggle at at times the amount of, you know, superfluous content that's out there. When I go to different websites to try to find out what a partner really does or what a competitor really does and you're just looking for that one or two sentence and capsulation and it's four five sentences and they don't necessarily say anything. So I think that's what people have to be cognizant of. Sometimes less is more. Just because you're using more words or just because you're creating complexity doesn't necessarily mean you're strengthening your message. A lot of times it means exactly the opposite. You are weakening your message. Yes, some of the best communicators that I've studied are able to make complex things simple or they're able to take concepts that would take paragraphs to explain and they figure out, how do I make this into just a couple sentences? Right? The work for a ten minute speech versus a thirty minute speech. It's actually a lot harder to do the ten minutes speech and get to the point, because we love all the superfluous stuff, we love all the side stuff. So that is so true. And because we live in this kind of tweet heavy society, where we need these portable, memorable, easily understandable that we need that type of copy and we just live in that space where attention spans are so short. I wonder, like, what filters are you running your word choice through to ensure its quality? One of the main things for me is just making sure that it flows, making sure when I read back over something, that I don't stumble over it, and I think it's really important to keep an idea on your sentence length and your paragraph length and keep things in active voice as much as you can, because passive voice, you...

...know, lends itself to clutter and ambiguity. And you know, the one thing you when you were talking about twitter, the one thing I thought about. You know, the one thing I like about twitter is the fact that it does make you focus on sound bites right. But then the thing I hate about twitter is how it has contribute to what all call a laziness factor, especially among younger generations, who think they can abbreviate their way through life and they came only on twitter. When you're speaking with a customer or an investor or an important stakeholder for your organization, you do need to maintain some sense of formality, and so you know, to me that is the downside of twitter in how it has contributed to a loss of appropriate decorum in some channels. HMM, it is interesting to balance that right, like can we be straightened to the point, but also understand the tenor of the conversation where in and understand the magnitude of the conversation with it's it's always a bit of a balancing act right. It's like putting ingredients into whatever you're trying to make. You have to put in the right ingredients in order to get the end result you're desiring. So I appreciate that you point that out. You mentioned the word flow and I want to ask a follow up question there. So your let's say you write some copy and you generally think it's it's good. Are you reading it back to yourself and noticing where someone might stumble or how? What do you exactly mean by flow? If it's got too many words, if there are too many commas, that's something that's really common these days. The common is common. Sometimes people put too many phrases in there that they offset by commas, and if you've got too many of those in there, that's going to create a problem. So you really do have to think to yourself. You know, how many of these words really matter? And I go back to my college days. One of my editorial professors, you know, who grilled it into us. If you can say it in five words instead of ten, do it. If you can say it in three words instead of five. So again that just goes back to clarity and conciseness. How many of these words do I really need to convey my point? Hey, be to be gross listeners. We want to hear from you. In fact, we will pay you for it. Just head over to be tob growth podcom and complete a short survey about the show to enter for a chance to win two hundred and fifty dollars. Plus the first fifty participants will receive twenty five dollars as our way of saying thank you so much. One more time. That's be tob growth podcom, letter B number two, letter be growth podcom. One entry per person must be an active listener of the show to enter and look forward to hearing from you. So again that just goes back to clarity and conciseness. How many of these words do I really need to convey my point? And do it with an appropriate tone, which I think when you're cutting out words, sometimes that can affect the way that someone reads it and the tonality. And you hit on this with this idea of passive language or active language. I want to go deep there for a second because I think knowing how we come off, are we talking in a passive way or in a more active way, is huge in how we actually end up communicating. Right. So if I am a passive communicator, I come off as passive in my communication. What is that mean, bunny, to you like explain and define what someone who's passive in their communication is?...

Well, one of the rules I try to follow is not to start a sentence with there. That's one key hack I supposed to remember, is not to start a sentence with there, because it's weak right off the bat, and just remembering that an active voice, the subject of the verb, is the one that is doing the action and it just makes for stronger, more compelling copy. Okay, so I'll give me an example why you wouldn't start a sentence with their. If you start a sentence with there, you are not identifying a subject. Your better off saying instead of there. Are Numerous studies that indicate blah, Blah Blah. Numerous studies indicate Blaah Blah Blah. It's almost like you're starting a sense with a filler word. Yes, you were cutting to the chase much faster. HMM. It's a good example and I'm glad because here's something we say of you, to regrowth, to is like. It's so like we want to give mindset shifts right, but we're also in the middle of it and it's so easy to fall prey to say something like that. So you have to stop and think about it. And so I wonder this, like if I come to you, bunny, and I say teach me to be more active in my communication approach and in my writing, what would be some of the things I would start doing? I would stop saying they're but are there some things that I would start doing? Maybe automatically again, taking out unnecessary words. Another thing that I see people say is quark will be presenting at such and such conference, will be presenting at instead of just quark will present act. It really is like filler words. The more mindful you can be of them, you come out almost more powerful. I know we're talking in this active communication sense, but there is a sense of power in your words. It's more compelling. Yeah, what's unique in your situation in Cork, because I know you're straddling be tob and be Toc and so that means, you know, when we're talking about language, you're also afting having to shift some of that language right depending on the audience that you're talking to. So you recently went through, I know, a rebrand and you're thinking about some of this quite a bit. What have been your main takeaway, some of your main learnings as as cork is going through this time of transition? Well, there have been a lot of learnings. Where do you want me to start? Do you want to talk about the the rebrand in and of itself and how we got there, or dive into the difference between the audiences? Little bit of both. Yeah, I definitely want to talk about both, but let's start with giving us some context and what this is all entailed. So quark has been an established company now for forty years. The primary product is Quark Express. That's what the company is most well known for. That product was first released in one thousand nine hundred and eighty seven, so thirty some plus years. As you know, a very powerful page layout and digital publishing platform, but quark also has offerings in content automation and content in intelligence, content intelligence, which lends itself to all organizations, but specifically enterprises that have to publish, you know, thousands of complex documents with very specific requirements, especially around, you know, regulatory...

...and legal compliance. We do a lot around structured authoring, modular authoring, componentized authoring. It's known in those various ways. So you know, one customer is the B Toc Independent designer or the agency designer or someone who works in House within a corporation that is creating brochures or catalogs or designing news letters or newspapers. So that's that's one audience that we serve and if you look on our website you'll notice that, you know, the branding is consistent, but with those quark express customers we're a little more playful, we're a little more fun the color choices or more vibrant. We can be a little more playful in our language and how we represent the brand, whereas on the inner pros side we're dealing with more it operational business analysts, even sea level executives. So we tone the brand down just a bit. We use a softer color Palette. We're a little bit more serious, but not too serious, because we still want to reflect the fact that we are a creative organization and that we're going to help our customers be more creative in whatever it is that they're producing. So again, you know, it really all goes back to those fundamentals of knowing who your audience is. Part of this has been I know for you guys, developing a tagline right and a tagline for a startup is one thing but, like you mentioned, I mean you're what forty years old, so that process is a bit different. Take me into some of what that process was like. Well, quark has been around for forty years, but we do fund ourselves in a busy of a start mentality and of, you know, rebranding the company and relaunching it with a focus on enterprise solutions. But you know, there was an existing website when I came on board almost a year ago now. That website did not speak to the larger value proposition. It really only spoke to the B Toc audience with Kark Express. So you know, there was a sense of urgency to figure out, okay, who are we now and how do we start communicating that? First and foremost, you know, through a logo, through a tagline, because that identity then informs everything else that you're going to create, which, of course, the next step was redesigning and rewriting the website. So fortunately, given where we were at the time, we did not have to start from scratch. You know, a lot of organizations when they go through a branding or a rebranding, that can take six months, nine months, even a year. It can be a very long drawn out process, and we did not have that kind of time. What we did we were able to accomplish within about a three month period, and that's because some good things were already in place. We had a logo that we simply reinterpreted and revitalized with a more vibrant color Palette. The symbolism we were able to still work with. But, you know, going back to the importance of words, one thing we had to stop and think about is, okay, quark. Well, how they come up with that? What does that mean? So you actually look and you realize, and we went back through, you know, some of the archives to realize that the the original company founder had a love of physics and science and so is. It turns out a quark is actually a real thing. It is a scientific term, and so we started looking at...

...that and looking at that meaning and it translated to what we're trying to do with the company. So if a quark in science is, you know, a basic, fundamental building block of all matter, well, quark the company then becomes the building block, the fundamental component for all content. That's where that took us. And the visuals with the circles, those are quarks. They're moving around, they're bumping into each other there there, you know, giving birth to other things. You know, that speaks to the creative process. And then there was a somewhat of a tagline in existence in a few places. Your content made brilliant, and I liked the word brilliant because it lent itself to a lot of different things. Brilliant in terms of the designest static, and you know, design is still a key component of what we offer. Brilliant smart in terms of, you know, strategic business use, and then, of brilliant in terms of intelligence, because closing the loop with content life cycle management these days means being able to understand how your content performs, having those insights so that you can reuse it or retire it or repurpose it. So it worked on so many levels and we were able to talk to both audiences because it's brilliant content that works. HMM. I love that. This is unique from what other startups would experience or even other companies I've I've had on the podcast recently, where they're doing some sort of branding or they're thinking about this. And because this was more of a you're readjusting, right, you're renegotiating, your improving on what has been and so there was this update that needed to happen, but you're also like rediscovering. What's the original use? How do we take what we already have? And so I love what you've landed on with brilliant content that works. And I think even as we were talking about communication, off the top, when you look at the taglines that we appreciate or you look at this tagline, there's no filler words, there's nothing extra right, because we're trying to get you to be memorable and portable, and so what this language is actionable and and it's active, and so I really appreciate the road that you guys have been on and how you landed where you did with that as your as your tagline. Let's land the plane here and kind of give away how we can leave this conversation better in our word choice. What would you admonish me and our audience to leave this episode with and to start doing differently? Well, I mean the main thing, I think, is you just have to stop and you have to think. Now, granted, you may not have as much time as you would like to do that, but I think it's very important to stop and to think and to remember what you're doing and why you're doing it. The why often gets forgotten about, and the why is key to to everything and decluttering your riding and just again making sure that you you figure out what your net net is and emphasizing value. You know, one of the mistakes that a lot of marketers, and especially a lot of salespeople will make when they go into a presentation safe for the first time. They're doing a pitch meeting, and you know there's that expression they show up and they throw up. They spend a lot of time talking about themselves and again, they don't really stop to have a dialog or a conversation or listen, to be able...

...to or they didn't do their research in the beginning, from from before the meeting, to be able to figure out, okay, what's in it for my audience? What do they need to hear from me? How can I connect with them, either because I have a product or a service that can make their life easier, which, you know, in a lot of instances in the bee to be world. That's what we're talking about. We're talking about solving pain, ping pain, trying to lessen pain, and you know, I would say that's another thing when it comes to refining your messaging. Just to go back to one of your earlier questions, when you are talking about some of the negatives and figuring out you know, do you address that negative head on in the negative language? Do you try to turn it around and into the positive? Sometimes you have to wrestle with those sorts of things too, but I just think honesty, authenticity, transparency, factoring all of those things into your word choice and being able to be clever and humorous whenever you can, forever it's appropriate. I think authenticity and honesty huge. I love the humor play. I think we're seeing that creep into be to be a little bit more into up be in and in marketing, and that's refreshing to me. And I love that you said dclutter you're writing, because that's a practical exercise for our whole audience. We're all producing content of some kind. We have blogs on our website, we have copy right that fills our website pages. I dare you to leave this episode and go look at the copy you already have, the content you already have, and just as an exercise. I'm not saying you have to keep it this way, but just dclutter some piece of content you already have and look at how much simpler you could have made that look, how much shorter you could have said it, and the more that you do that. I even think about this with my podcast notes, but I look at the way that I write questions and then what it would look like to just get straight to the point. Now these conversations are a lot of back and forth and so we're not always looking for the shortest route right, but as an exercise, that's content that I'm creating all the time that I can look at and continue to get better in in language and being more active, and so, bunny, I really appreciate this conversation. Kind of my last question as we start to wrap up here. If listeners were at a leave the conversation and they they move from a passive communication style to into this active language that we've talked about, what results do you believe that they'll see? Is there an example you would give us or a result that you really believe we would experience if we would would take this on and begin to live from this place of active language? Well, I mean, hopefully they'll see better results from whatever it is they're trying to accomplish with the content that they're creating, but I would also hope that they would experience, you know, better relationships, whether that's with coworkers or folks who report to them, clients, folks outside, even inner personal relationships. Because again, you know, if you think about your word choice, and one one lesson I arn I learned fairly early, was, you know, when you're having a conversation and maybe it's a difficult one, instead of making pointed statements you did this or you didn't do that, asking questions is usually a really good, safe way to get people to a point you want them to get to. So that is that is a piece of advice and then just, you know, the I statements, I feel or I think versus rather...

...you did or you didn't. Just those changes, I think, can can have a big difference in how you communicate with people that you work with. One of the things I'll leave you with, again of a tip I picked up from somewhere along the way, but it has been, you know, very valuable, is, you know again, proofread your work, even emails that you're just sending internally with your colleagues. Please you spell as sick. Please proof because you know if you get an email from someone that's just full of errors and misspellings, you know that's that's your credibility, and especially those of us who were in marketing, we need to maintain that credibility in every channel that we're communicating in, even those internal, seemingly informal ones. And a tip for proofreading is proof read backwards. Start from the bottom and read your way up, because that way your brain has not memorized or doesn't anticipate what it thinks is that next logical word. So proof freed backwards. I have not heard that one and I will leave the episode with that. I think that is a great last tip for this episode. Okay, Bunny, take the last minute here. Tell us a little bit more about Cork. I know we touched on it throughout this episode, but give us a little bit more on what the company does and then tell us where people can stay connected to you. So quark provides content design, automation and intelligence software and that is all about content life cycle management, and we've actually got a new piece of software coming out tomorrow actually, so you can check back at Quarkcom to find out about that. But we're releasing the latest version of our quark public listening platform. And then, as for keeping up with me, I am on Linkedin and I'm certainly happy to make connections there. Love it well, thank you for stopping by BB growth. It has been an honor to get the chat with you today. Thank you, Benjie. This was fun. Appreciate the invitation. We're having conversations like this on BB growth because we want to help fuel all of our listeners growth and innovation right we don't want you to feel like you're doing this alone, and marketing can feel really shiny sometimes, but in reality we're all just working on getting better. In this podcast exists to help us all continue to get better. So if you are not subscribed to the show yet, I would appreciate if you did that. That way you never miss an episode and you can subscribe on whatever your favorite podcast platform is. Connect with me over on Linkedin. Just search Benji Block, always talking about marketing, business and life over there. Keep doing work that matters. Will be back real soon with another episode. Be Tob growth is brought to you by the team at sweet fish media. Here at sweet fish, we produce podcast for some of the most innovative brands in the world and we help them turn those podcasts into Microvideos, linkedin content, blog post and more. We're on a mission to produce every leader's favorite show. Want more information, visit sweet fish mediacom up.

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