B2B Growth: Your Daily B2B Marketing Podcast
B2B Growth: Your Daily B2B Marketing Podcast

Episode 2067 · 11 months ago

How to Develop Thought Leadership Without Being The Expert

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

In this episode, Dan Sanchez talks to P ete Larkin who is the Senior Marketing Director of Angle Point about his process for creating thought leadership content without being a subject matter expert in the industry.

They discussed at length: 

  • How to build thought leadership (for other people) in a space you don’t have much technical experience in. 
  • How to build thought leadership when your actual thought leaders don’t have much non-billable time.
  • How to leverage analysts and other thought leaders to build thought leadership for your company.

Welcome back to be to be growth. I'm dan Sanchez friends, Comey dan Chevez and I'm here with Pete Larkin, who is the senior Director of marketing at angle point today we're continuing the journey into the topic of thought leadership marketing. Kind of discovering what it is, how to become a thought leader and how to develop the thought leadership marketing content. I'm excited to have peace on the show with me today because he's actually developed thought leadership content for angle point while not actually being a thought leader in the space himself. He is not the subject matter expert yet. He's producing fantastic thought leadership content and just killing it, producing lots of revenue for his company with it. So Pete, welcome to the show. Thanks dan, appreciate that man, I'm excited to be here and I think this is a highly relevant topic because there's a lot of people that are tasked with creating thought leadership content for the company or the Ceo or maybe the internal subject matter experts while not actually being the expert. So I think it's a highly common task, especially across people that are like, you know, their official job title includes thought leadership in it but not only that, but I think most marketers would do well to know how to do this well because there is a difference between creating good content and thought leadership content. And I wanted to dive into that with you today, starting with like your story like how did you even get to this point of doing this of creating this kind of content for angle point? Yeah, that's a great question. Thanks. Um you know it's kind of weird um I didn't even know that the industry in which I work even existed until pretty much I started working here. I work in the space of software asset management under the umbrella of item or I. T. Asset management. And prior to working here at angle point I was with a sas company sas startup here in Utah called Ramadi. And prior to that I worked with...

...a couple of different organizations in the in the marketing department. Um but when when I got here to angle point I was pretty much the one man band when we when we started up Um the company started in 2009, I joined in just to believe it's 2015 and it was you know, it's just me, all my lonesome doing the one man band marketing thing. I think a lot of people can relate to that, especially in smaller organizations. And then and then you scale up from there and we've grown our team. Um but since then, you know I've done I've worn so many different hats and done, I had to get deep into so many different marketing functions uh and in our space as we, you know, really try to make our place and and kind of I guess take our place in the our market and kind of uh as as I think everybody is trying to do kind of that number one spot kind of dominate in our space. Um Thought leadership has been such an important aspect of our work. So as you've gone about trying to become the leader in the space, right? Thought leadership and become kind of the innovator and the one that people go to for information, that's how usually most people describe thought leadership to me. I don't know if that's the whole story behind I thought leadership and that's why I'm doing the deep dive, but that's certainly a huge aspect of it using the huge benefit of it. How did you, what start from the beginning of what your methodology is like for developing thought leadership content, even though you weren't the one to kind of develop this space originally. Yeah, I mean one of the most important things that we need to be able to communicate is trust and confidence for our customers, right? If they're going to spend a large amount of money with us, they have to be able to trust that that we are going to get it done for them, right? Like we are going to be able to perform and solve their pains uh and take advantage of opportunities. Uh and and those were it's so critical to build that trust and that credibility for us, that thought leadership, you...

...know, kind of our approach of and I look at it as kind of watering holes, right? And that's kind of kind of my example, or my analogy is is I want to not only be a watering hole for people to come to for a source of information for, you know, a trusted source where anytime somebody wants to learn something about item or SAM software asset management, if they want to learn about Microsoft publishing, license, contract negotiation, um I want them to come to us, right? And that means that, you know, we have to be able to demonstrate and to be able to show why people can trust us, right? And so I don't just want to be a watering hole. I want to be the watering hole, right? I want to be the biggest best I can get a really like tasty deep drink in the angle point watering hole, right? That may sound a little weird, but that's kind of our take on it. So there's often a differentiation between content marketing, thought, leadership marketing. Where do you draw the line in them? Yeah, dan, that's a great question. And for us uh we create a lot of content for different reasons specifically for search engine optimization. It might be for trying to build, you know, relationships and to for to get for people to get to know our people a little bit better specifically. Um for example, creating content that's about our Ceo or one of our analysts and it's not specific to leadership in that aspect. Sometimes it is, but in in this context specifically talking about humanization, trying to help people really get to know who we are um that we're not just um you know, robots, you know, working behind, you know, behind screens on computers, but that we're real people. Um so that's definitely a piece of it. Maybe for, you know, lead capture lead generation purposes. Um There's a lot of different reasons why we create content, but the difference for for for us between content marketing and the thought leadership is that for for Thought...

...leadership, we're really trying to help build that that trust and credibility for our people and for our our company. And that kind of breaks into a discussion on like thought leaderships for brands and thought leadership for people individuals, right? And that, you know, linked in for example, linked in put so much focus on the individual profiles and it does on brand pages, and that's so much more optimized and helpful to be creating content as individuals than just the brand, right? And that's, you know, part of how we take our approach on on Thought leadership is how do we build that um for angle point our brand and how do we build that for our individuals? Right. Our contributors are subject matter experts are smes find one of the differences. I see what content marketing all the time is, that content marketing isn't necessarily unique to you. You might have organized it better, you might have put together information that was already out there and just didn't there wasn't a good blog post for And you published it. Thought leadership marketing is unique, right? It's new ideas and people tend to trust, I think you said the word credibility. I think that's a big piece of it is thought Leadership builds more credibility and people tend to trust those people more and tend to go to the person on the cutting edge for the information. Right? So we're always looking for that new thing. So, I think that's a big piece of it. It's certainly we can unpack that in the whole episode. Yeah, absolutely. and you know and kind of adding on where um it is something cutting edge, it is something new but it's also something deep, right? Where there might be a lot of discussion about a certain topic that may not be getting as deep as it as it could be. So um and that's where the topic might not be necessarily new but like the supporting details like the house, the what's the winds, the wise um and getting really deep on that where that there might be new content or new information specific to that...

...topic. But the topic itself might not be new, right? It could be a gold. Right? Absolutely. So let's dive into your process like how are you creating thought leadership content for angle point? Even if you're not the one, the subject matter expert, were you going to get it? And how are you crafting it? Yeah, man. And this process has changed from when I started with angle point until now because we're, you know, like we went through that whole learning process and on how to really dial it in. But now after years of practice, trial and error, I still after over five years in this industry, you know, I do my research and I get deep in in doing my best to understand, you know, our market, our segmentation, czar personas and to just know the ins and outs of the industry and still when it comes to the technical spaces, the technical parts of the services that we provide, man, it is just like it is so, so deep in there. We, we provide a number of different services. Um and they're literally, you cannot find um there's no like special unicorns that you may find in other industries, in our particular industry. You're not gonna find one specific person who is a like deep thought leadership expert in every part of our business, right? You can find some generalists who have like a pretty high level on all of the different components of our business and you might find someone who's like really deep in one or two components, but you're not going to find someone who has that depth for everything, right? And so so for me, like I'd have to go back to school and spend years upon years learning about, you know, everything um to do with the technical components of our business to be considered, you know, a thought leader for the different verticals, right? Of our space because you're not an I. T. You're not a procurement, which is kind of like the people that are doing the thing that you are trying to attract and build that leadership around. So if you're a marketer doing thought leadership, unless you're selling to other marketers, you essentially have to get your your thought leadership...

...content from somebody else, right? Yeah, dan. I found like in in our space in particular, um that you're either a subject matter expert practitioner turned marketer or your marketer having to market, uh, you know, the subject matter that you don't know a ton about market or first or a subject matter expert first, but you you don't find a lot of really talented subject matter experts who become these really, you know, deep talented marketers, it's hard to find those, right? Those would be probably unicorns to find that type, right? So for for me at angle point, I'm still after these many years, I don't feel to any degree that I'm a real subject matter expert in the space. So I have to work very, very closely with our subject matter experts throughout our organization who are all by the way, you know, billable, right? They are spending their time with our clients and taking any time away from them at all means I'm taking away from billable hours, Right? So I have to be very, very careful and cautious about how much time I'm taking away from them, which has been influential, you know, crucial to the processes that we've built around this on how do we build thought leadership and how do we build, you know, the the brands around these particular individuals and our company as you know, credible sources? Um, without just taking, you know, an exuberant amount of time away from, you know, billable hours away from our clients. So how do you extract the information from your subject matter experts getting the information to start with. I'll tell you a little bit of kind of the back story. Um when, when we first started, when I first started kind of one man band approach at angle point, um you know, I'd sit down with them, I would interview them, I would, you know, kind of journalist approach, I would take notes, I would record, and then I found, man like I'm just I'm taking too much time away from these people, and then I said, okay, I'm just going to have them write it, you know, here's the topic that we need...

...to talk about. If you can go and create like a presentation or if you can write an article about this, that would be great, and then they send it back and I'll be like, man, this is crap, right? Like great content butthole, man, like it is hard to read write like not you know, expert writers and, and and then the tone and voice was coming across so different across so many different people, right? And so just like what was coming back to me was not stellar. Right? Again, the subject matter itself, the content of the sub, like regarding the subject and the quality of that content, it was great to be honest, even like reading into it, I would look at it and I'll be like, I think this is great. I like I think this is right. Like I don't have no way to verify that this is right and that those kind of challenges that we're facing as what, what impacted the process that we've built today, um for us and this, this particular approach, it works for us. It might not work for every organization, but I think there are quite a few that that this would be applicable for where one. man, we first, we have to identify what topics do you need to be talking about, right? Um and if it's going to be cutting edge, if it's going to be relevant or if it's going to be, you know, really deep or something new based on an older topic, you do have to know and understand the industry and what's happening, right? And as someone who's not a subject matter expert, especially in all the different verticals in our organization. That's hard, right? So one thing that we've done is we've created an internal way for people to report on like new and emerging topics for us, we use Microsoft teams. So within teams, we have a channel that says, hey, anytime you see something new or some like a hot topic, throw it in here like report it right? Tell us about what's going on. And then we, we kind of get put on our journalist hats and we start investigating. You know, someone had just come into that. This new thing is happening. You know, this new trend or like this is where things that we predict, things are going to go. Um, that's where we really start investigating deep on the marketing...

...side. Uh, and then we'll schedule some time with that particular person who commented or with a couple of different people within the organization. We'll do some short interviews just to get a better idea of what's happening. And then one of the best things that we've been able to find is, well actually create a webinar, right? We will, will meet with the particular subject matter expert, who, who is, you know, the best person to talk about this particular subject. And then we will set up a webinar will market will get people to drive people to come to our webinar. And in the process of creating the webinar and preparing the presentation the subject matter expert. They put a lot of thought and you know, they do put it's not a significant amount of time that we found, but um it probably, you know, four or five hours, maybe a tops um that they create this presentation prep for that webinar. And then after the webinar is done, we take that and then we repurpose it right. We create articles from that. We create social content from that. We create audio clips from that micro videos and we just reuse it the blog articles. Then we really focus on the keywords for search engine optimization. In addition to, you know, it's a thought leader piece, but it's also very much a search engine optimization piece. So we are repurposing that content without having to involve the subject matter expert, you know, um time and time again. We, because they've already created it right, they've already created that content with the webinar. Uh and then we're just repurposing it so we don't need to go and say, hey, can you, can you verify that this is right? Or can you can you check our work on this? But even then, like, um there are times when maybe we're not doing a webinar or we're not doing uh you know, a podcast or something. So if we're going to say just create an article, we will have a similar process where we'll sit down with them, will record them talk about a certain subject Uh for maybe 15 minutes to half hour. Then we'll go and we'll write the content and then we'll send it back to them and we'll go through our first round of of review. Um so we have that...

...particular subject matter expert check that content to make sure that it's good and that, you know, we're not saying anything that's going to be embarrassing to us, right? Because especially in our space, and I'm sure that this is very similar in a lot of organizations where you can say one word wrong and make yourself look like an idiot like your company and you totally uproot like all of the efforts to like build this credibility in this trust and it's like common that doesn't know what he's talking about, right? Um, so like in a space like ours and many organizations, you do have to be super careful about what you say and how you say it. So we, for a lot of the content that we create, we actually have a two step verification or content review process where we don't want to take too much time from our experts, but we need to verify and ensure that what we're putting out its quality. There's I mean, James Carberry talks a lot about quantity leads to quality and were very much on board with that, like we're not necessarily trying to create perfection, but we are trying to make sure that we're focusing credibility. So first we have that subject matter expert, review it and and sign off on it and then we send it to a second um subject matter expert as just kind of a second set of eyes and that second person that we're sending it to, um they've got a lot of experience throughout in our industry and throughout the different verticals of our space. They might not have as much deep expertise as that first subject matter expert, but as a second set of eyes, they're really helpful on catching things that maybe that first subject matter expert didn't see. So we have the kind of that, that two step verification content review that's really, really helpful. And I think that that's what has been so crucial for us in creating content, um that that people want to read, but also that really helps build that thought leadership, that trust and credibility for us. I love how thorough the process is. So essentially I took notes and I...

...was saying these are the kind of the steps you have, right is identify the topic categories ahead of time that, you know, you want your subject matter experts to kind of pay attention to. And then you created a channel, you did it on teams, but it could easily be done on slack or other kinds of internal chat system. Or they could just kind of post things that they saw were interesting. What was unclear is in between that. Do you identify as they're posting things to this channel to you as the market or pick out which one do you want them to do webinars on? Yeah, that's a great question. When it comes to like, uh which topics we're gonna do a webinar or what topics we're going to do? Maybe just an article on. We will uh this content, we actually have a content review team. I was talking about going through the first person in the second person, the second set of review. Like we have a channel within teams, you can do this on slack, but that's where we post um kind of our plan for the content that we want to roll forward with say, hey this, this looks like a topic we should really invest in. Um we're thinking about doing a webinar and we'll have the content review team look at it and they'll say, hey, yeah, actually you definitely need to look into this or in others, they might say, actually, uh maybe not, don't spend too much time. Maybe write an article about it. Cause like we're not ranking very high for any of these terms, may be doing S. C. O. P. S on this and you know, it's still a great piece to share on linkedin, but maybe don't be as invested on, on the way that your repurchasing or building more committed content for. I love that you're jumping right into webinars after you identify the main topics you want to hit, it's live, it's, it forces them to really think through what they're going to say. So their delivery is really good. Oftentimes when you just come and record things, I don't know, it could take more time. I don't know. I guess you can go back and forth because I like being able to jump on a podcast, just record and being able to box something and they know that the editors are going to get in the back end. But once you've done the webinar, that's one that's a whole different. You could do things live, which is a whole channel in itself and then take and push it to Youtube or something later. That's a different channel. Um,...

...and then splinter it up into all kinds of different pieces. And generally if they did a good job on the webinar while you're running it through two different filters to make sure it was good, chances are probably pretty good. It's going to be pretty clean and probably rarely gonna need like much editing from there because they had to do it live, which means they did a lot of homework out ahead of time. So I'm not surprised they're spending you know 2 to 4 hours preparing for its probably a good amount of time because you're going to save time on the back end just editing it right? So I love that process that way. You're just kind of coordinating it, getting them your internal subject matter experts to create the content that's relevant because they're paying attention to what's going on out in the world in this industry. And as they surface things, they you flag it, they come up with a unique opinion about it, do it as a webinar, get it out there and then you splinter it out to reinforce that pillar piece of content you mentioned to me before in this just before recording that you had an internal set, but you also have an external set to capitalize on thought leaders outside of your company. So tell me a little bit more about that process. Yeah, absolutely. You know, this is this is maybe a little bit unique to our space, but I think it's also applicable to to others as well. For those who are familiar with Gartner, it's, it's a research organization. They do a lot of events, but they're very trusted source, right? They do also something called the Gartner Magic Quadrant. I'm sure that a lot of of listeners have heard this or have seen this before where they kind of plot where organizations are on on kind of this uh, this to access quadrant, right? If you're in the top right, you're usually the leader, right? And Gardner is very careful in the way that they position things where you know they want everybody on the on that magic quadrant to be uh to be seen in a great light. But you know if you're in that top right quadrant like that's that's the place to be, that's the top spot. Yeah and for marketers listening to this to me it sounds like as I was unfamiliar with them. I've heard of them it's a big name but at the same time like oh it's kind of like G. Two which more...

...marketers and I think maybe startups are probably more familiar with G. Two but you're dealing with like I. T. Enterprise where there's just a different gatekeeper when it comes to reviewing who's who out in the tech world, right? Yeah. And and at Gardner they have a lot of uh you know really knowledgeable experts and thought leaders, right, who they hire to come and do a lot of this research and then to, you know, publish content materials that other organizations can purchase and can learn from. And they, you know, Gardner is a great source of great watering hole, write a great source of information. Uh, you know, speaking of thought leadership. Um, and for us this kind of external approach is um, a lot of people go to Garner saying, hey, you know, like we're looking for for this type of solution and we're looking for this type of vendor, any recommendations or any referrals, anywhere you can send us to for this type of thing. And in our particular space that happens all the time, people are going to Gartner for, you know, for some guidance and direction and we wanted Gardner to know who we were, right, and we want a gardener to know what we do and um not just at at a surface level, but we wanted to build that brand perception, brand awareness and thought leadership in the eyes of Gardner, right? So we're targeting Gartner in a way, you know, kind of target marketing, um you know, targeting gardener so that they see us in that light, um you know that we want to be seen to perceive us as industry experts, but the way that we've done it, like it's a difficult thing to do and we found that, you know, Gardner, I think Forrester as well, you can do this with them as well, but you can pretty much purchase a package or you can pay to spend time with them. And they will review like any, pretty much anything that's called an inquiry, a gardener inquiry, you pretty much um they will review anything that you want to talk with them about. And let's say that you're going to create, you know some a blog article or a presentation or you're gonna do a webinar your...

...website literally like anything you want them to look at and review. You can sit down and have them look at that, they'll give you some feedback and then you can then implement that feedback and just, you know, make it better right? Whenever you're working on now, the beauty in this is as I'm having them review the content that that we're working on, um they see that content and they learn the depth and breadth of what we do, right? So they get to learn, say I'm going to write an article specifically, you know, in the marketing world. They've got a Gartner magic quadrant for marketing automation. Let's say I'm gonna meet with Gartner about you know how this new integration with linkedin right? Where I can talk with the marketing analyst and they can learn everything about this integration with linked in and while I am, yeah, I'm trying to get their feedback, I'm also educating them on what we're doing and how great of a solution that we're providing. Right? And then as we do that we're building that, reported that reputation with these Gartner analysts. And then when people go to gardeners say Gardner, who should we go check out? Right. Um for this is you know, these are our challenges are pain points, we need help with uh you know, linked in some of our marketing automation and they said, oh you know what, I was just talking to dan Sanchez and he told me this like really cool stuff that he's doing with like some of his linkedin automation stuff like that's gonna be top of mind for them, right? You know, So would you be doing this with features of your service or product or would you be doing this with your thought? Your unique thought leadership ideas? Yeah, dan. I mean it's both right? That's a great question, but it's both like, we'll do that for for we want them aware of the products and services that we're offering, but we also want to, you know, to be able to pass on um that thought leadership content that we're creating both for feedback. I genuinely want their feedback there really, it could be like a unique methodology or approach to identifying a problem. Maybe everybody russell's with the same problem, man, that's a really interesting take. So...

...you're getting the kind of the some of the industry gatekeepers and I don't know what else to call them, but they're like the ones that people go to the trusted authorities on the topic and essentially get into paying them to review it in. So doing you are one getting valuable feedback. It's probably worth it just for the feedback, but also getting on their radar so that you're in their minds, so that when they're either reviewing the category that you're in or giving advice to other people, because again, other people are going to them paid and probably unpaid sometimes, who knows? You're in their minds, you're cementing your position, your cementing your thought leadership. So those guys are now going to all their other customers and probably mentioning you when it's relevant. We've had a lot of referrals come from Gardner and it's been incredibly impactful for our business to the tune of of seven figures, right, man. So is that I was just going to lead into like what would have been the results of doing this? So do you have more specifics around like the numbers of what this thought leadership has done? Yeah, I mean without getting too specific, I can't legally get too deep in here. But I can tell you that it has become such a key component to our marketing strategy because of its impact, that it's one of our key drivers, right of new revenue. And that's, I mean, everything that we're doing, that we've been talking about today, the metrics that we're looking at is ultimately its revenue, right? If you're not looking at that revenue metric, then you're missing a big piece of this. And are you attributing that by people coming in, new customers coming in when you ask them like the proverbial question, like how did you hear about us? And they're saying Gardner? Yeah, that's exactly right Yeah. Thing. And they probably play into each other, right? So you're doing the first step by getting your internal subject matter experts and you're constantly have like a little bit of a machine, like creating thought leadership content that way. Um through the process, we just talked about, are you taking like the best pieces from that and pitching those two Gardner? Yeah, the content that we create, that we're specifically going to show the gardener. I mean we're not going to...

...show them everything right, We're going to show them the pieces um that are most important that helped build, you know, that that perception, right? It's it's kind of that branding piece, the branding strategy, it's the the analyst and and thought leader aspect of branding for the company and are individuals, right? Because we also want to show like who who's creating this content like that. All this was uh this person on our team and this person on our team and then we'll have those people meet with our analysts as well. So it's not just I'm like, actually I very rarely meet with Gardner myself, right? I send the creators of this content, the creators of this thought leadership material so that they are having face time and interacting with these analysts, Right? That's a super important piece, man. I think this is a pretty good 12 punch one on reproducing content systematically from your internal experts, but also gonna almost an outbound strategy for getting the thought leadership out there and getting it validated, you know, stamp of approval from other people that are that your customers respect. Um, if you're a SAS company, go and find the gatekeepers, the people everybody's looking to for information and see if you can get in front of them if you're selling SAS and there's probably a lot of service people who are working with lots of customers, right? So like, I mean, sweet fish could be one of those, right? We're podcast agency. We have, I don't know, 85 active shows and we've launched hundreds of podcasts. So we have a bit of a voice in podcasting. But if you had podcasting tech, I'm like, I don't know, maybe you should come find me. Right. I could probably be, I'm a like a micro, very tiny micro influencer between like the rest of the Swedish team. But it wouldn't be, it probably wouldn't be a bad thing, especially if you wanted to reach like b to be like podcasting people. But there's probably, that's just a very small case. And to be tacked. Like if you went to, um, if you're in demand gen probably want to go find chris walker and see, have a little conversation with them, see what you can do now. He's pretty tight lipped about his vendors and what he recommends. And he's actually kind of anti tech sometimes, but you know, trying to find the gatekeeper, the...

...influencer or the organizational gatekeeper in your case, Gardner who's seeing a lot of people having lots of conversations and is generally respected in the industry and seeing if you can get in front of them. Yeah, it's the third party source, right? Who is the third party source that everyone's going to that watering hole for information, uh, and direction on where they should go, right? And if you can build a reputation, report with them uh, than the referrals. You know, there's big opportunity there, what we've been talking about here. There's a referral aspect here. Thought leadership aspect to your content marketing aspect here, right? There's a lot of, you know, different kind of approaches to this kind of, wrapped into one, but definitely all around this idea of building credibility and trust in your organization and your people and that's fantastic. Is there anything I missed in breaking down this methodology and the results that you've gained? Um No man, I think we've covered it pretty well. I just say that like, it may seem like a big daunting task and like, oh man, this is pretty heavy, How are we going to get the ear of of, you know, this particular organization or this particular person, you know, the chris walker or the gardener, Right? But first and foremost, it's important to understand in your space to identify who these, you know, these other influencers are and thought leaders. Like there's an influencer aspect here, Like B2B influencer marketing, like that's a thing to write. But identifying who they are and then, you know, trying to build relationships with them, right? That's right. You can do it on social media, you can do it by your podcast and interview them on your show. I'm actively doing it pretty much every day doing it right now. So, a man, that is a great point to wrap up the show. Where can people go to ask you follow up questions and learn more about angle point if they have more questions after this? Yeah, absolutely. You can find me on linkedin. I'm pretty active there also, you can go to angle point dot com, find more information.

Um but Lincoln is definitely the easiest place department. Fantastic. Again, thank you so much for joining me on GDP growth. Thanks man, appreciate it. Mm mm For the longest time I was asking people to leave a review of GDP growth in apple podcasts but I realized that was kind of stupid because leaving a review is way harder than just leaving a simple rating. So I'm changing my tune a bit instead of asking you to leave a review, I'm just gonna ask you to go to beauty growth in apple podcasts, scroll down until you see the ratings and reviews section and just tap the number of stars you want to give us no review necessary. Super easy. And I promise it will help us out a ton. If you want a copy of my book, content based networking, just shoot me a text after you leave the rating and I'll send on your way, text me at 4074 and I know 33 to 8.

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