B2B Growth: Your Daily B2B Marketing Podcast
B2B Growth: Your Daily B2B Marketing Podcast

Episode 2067 · 3 months ago

How to Develop Thought Leadership Without Being The Expert

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

In this episode, Dan Sanchez talks to P ete Larkin who is the Senior Marketing Director of Angle Point about his process for creating thought leadership content without being a subject matter expert in the industry.

They discussed at length: 

  • How to build thought leadership (for other people) in a space you don’t have much technical experience in. 
  • How to build thought leadership when your actual thought leaders don’t have much non-billable time.
  • How to leverage analysts and other thought leaders to build thought leadership for your company.

Welcome back to be to be growth. I'mdan Sanchez friends, Comey dan Chevez and I'm here with Pete Larkin, who isthe senior Director of marketing at angle point today we're continuing thejourney into the topic of thought leadership marketing. Kind ofdiscovering what it is, how to become a thought leader and how to develop thethought leadership marketing content. I'm excited to have peace on the showwith me today because he's actually developed thought leadership contentfor angle point while not actually being a thought leader in the spacehimself. He is not the subject matter expert yet. He's producing fantasticthought leadership content and just killing it, producing lots of revenuefor his company with it. So Pete, welcome to the show. Thanks dan,appreciate that man, I'm excited to be here and I think this is a highlyrelevant topic because there's a lot of people that are tasked with creatingthought leadership content for the company or the Ceo or maybe theinternal subject matter experts while not actually being the expert. So Ithink it's a highly common task, especially across people that are like,you know, their official job title includes thought leadership in it butnot only that, but I think most marketers would do well to know how todo this well because there is a difference between creating goodcontent and thought leadership content. And I wanted to dive into that with youtoday, starting with like your story like how did you even get to this pointof doing this of creating this kind of content for angle point? Yeah, that's agreat question. Thanks. Um you know it's kind of weird um I didn't evenknow that the industry in which I work even existed until pretty much Istarted working here. I work in the space of software asset managementunder the umbrella of item or I. T. Asset management. And prior to workinghere at angle point I was with a sas company sas startup here in Utah calledRamadi. And prior to that I worked with...

...a couple of different organizations inthe in the marketing department. Um but when when I got here to angle point Iwas pretty much the one man band when we when we started up Um the companystarted in 2009, I joined in just to believe it's 2015 and it was you know,it's just me, all my lonesome doing the one man band marketing thing. I think alot of people can relate to that, especially in smaller organizations.And then and then you scale up from there and we've grown our team. Um butsince then, you know I've done I've worn so many different hats and done, Ihad to get deep into so many different marketing functions uh and in our spaceas we, you know, really try to make our place and and kind of I guess take ourplace in the our market and kind of uh as as I think everybody is trying to dokind of that number one spot kind of dominate in our space. Um Thoughtleadership has been such an important aspect of our work. So as you've goneabout trying to become the leader in the space, right? Thought leadershipand become kind of the innovator and the one that people go to forinformation, that's how usually most people describe thought leadership tome. I don't know if that's the whole story behind I thought leadership andthat's why I'm doing the deep dive, but that's certainly a huge aspect of itusing the huge benefit of it. How did you, what start from the beginning ofwhat your methodology is like for developing thought leadership content,even though you weren't the one to kind of develop this space originally. Yeah,I mean one of the most important things that we need to be able to communicateis trust and confidence for our customers, right? If they're going tospend a large amount of money with us, they have to be able to trust that thatwe are going to get it done for them, right? Like we are going to be able toperform and solve their pains uh and take advantage of opportunities. Uh andand those were it's so critical to build that trust and that credibilityfor us, that thought leadership, you...

...know, kind of our approach of and Ilook at it as kind of watering holes, right? And that's kind of kind of myexample, or my analogy is is I want to not only be a watering hole for peopleto come to for a source of information for, you know, a trusted source whereanytime somebody wants to learn something about item or SAM softwareasset management, if they want to learn about Microsoft publishing, license,contract negotiation, um I want them to come to us, right? And that means that,you know, we have to be able to demonstrate and to be able to show whypeople can trust us, right? And so I don't just want to be a watering hole.I want to be the watering hole, right? I want to be the biggest best I can geta really like tasty deep drink in the angle point watering hole, right? Thatmay sound a little weird, but that's kind of our take on it. So there'soften a differentiation between content marketing, thought, leadershipmarketing. Where do you draw the line in them? Yeah, dan, that's a greatquestion. And for us uh we create a lot of content for different reasonsspecifically for search engine optimization. It might be for trying tobuild, you know, relationships and to for to get for people to get to knowour people a little bit better specifically. Um for example, creatingcontent that's about our Ceo or one of our analysts and it's not specific toleadership in that aspect. Sometimes it is, but in in this context specificallytalking about humanization, trying to help people really get to know who weare um that we're not just um you know, robots, you know, working behind, youknow, behind screens on computers, but that we're real people. Um so that'sdefinitely a piece of it. Maybe for, you know, lead capture lead generationpurposes. Um There's a lot of different reasons why we create content, but thedifference for for for us between content marketing and the thoughtleadership is that for for Thought...

...leadership, we're really trying to helpbuild that that trust and credibility for our people and for our our company.And that kind of breaks into a discussion on like thought leadershipsfor brands and thought leadership for people individuals, right? And that,you know, linked in for example, linked in put so much focus on the individualprofiles and it does on brand pages, and that's so much more optimized andhelpful to be creating content as individuals than just the brand, right?And that's, you know, part of how we take our approach on on Thoughtleadership is how do we build that um for angle point our brand and how do webuild that for our individuals? Right. Our contributors are subject matterexperts are smes find one of the differences. I see what contentmarketing all the time is, that content marketing isn't necessarily unique toyou. You might have organized it better, you might have put together informationthat was already out there and just didn't there wasn't a good blog postfor And you published it. Thought leadership marketing is unique, right?It's new ideas and people tend to trust, I think you said the word credibility.I think that's a big piece of it is thought Leadership builds morecredibility and people tend to trust those people more and tend to go to theperson on the cutting edge for the information. Right? So we're alwayslooking for that new thing. So, I think that's a big piece of it. It'scertainly we can unpack that in the whole episode. Yeah, absolutely. andyou know and kind of adding on where um it is something cutting edge, it issomething new but it's also something deep, right? Where there might be a lotof discussion about a certain topic that may not be getting as deep as itas it could be. So um and that's where the topic might not be necessarily newbut like the supporting details like the house, the what's the winds, thewise um and getting really deep on that where that there might be new contentor new information specific to that...

...topic. But the topic itself might notbe new, right? It could be a gold. Right? Absolutely. So let's dive intoyour process like how are you creating thought leadership content for anglepoint? Even if you're not the one, the subject matter expert, were you goingto get it? And how are you crafting it? Yeah, man. And this process has changedfrom when I started with angle point until now because we're, you know, likewe went through that whole learning process and on how to really dial it in.But now after years of practice, trial and error, I still after over fiveyears in this industry, you know, I do my research and I get deep in in doingmy best to understand, you know, our market, our segmentation, czar personasand to just know the ins and outs of the industry and still when it comes tothe technical spaces, the technical parts of the services that we provide,man, it is just like it is so, so deep in there. We, we provide a number ofdifferent services. Um and they're literally, you cannot find um there'sno like special unicorns that you may find in other industries, in ourparticular industry. You're not gonna find one specific person who is a likedeep thought leadership expert in every part of our business, right? You canfind some generalists who have like a pretty high level on all of thedifferent components of our business and you might find someone who's likereally deep in one or two components, but you're not going to find someonewho has that depth for everything, right? And so so for me, like I'd haveto go back to school and spend years upon years learning about, you know,everything um to do with the technical components of our business to beconsidered, you know, a thought leader for the different verticals, right? Ofour space because you're not an I. T. You're not a procurement, which is kindof like the people that are doing the thing that you are trying to attractand build that leadership around. So if you're a marketer doing thoughtleadership, unless you're selling to other marketers, you essentially haveto get your your thought leadership...

...content from somebody else, right? Yeah,dan. I found like in in our space in particular, um that you're either asubject matter expert practitioner turned marketer or your marketer havingto market, uh, you know, the subject matter that you don't know a ton aboutmarket or first or a subject matter expert first, but you you don't find alot of really talented subject matter experts who become these really, youknow, deep talented marketers, it's hard to find those, right? Those wouldbe probably unicorns to find that type, right? So for for me at angle point,I'm still after these many years, I don't feel to any degree that I'm areal subject matter expert in the space. So I have to work very, very closelywith our subject matter experts throughout our organization who are allby the way, you know, billable, right? They are spending their time with ourclients and taking any time away from them at all means I'm taking away frombillable hours, Right? So I have to be very, very careful and cautious abouthow much time I'm taking away from them, which has been influential, you know,crucial to the processes that we've built around this on how do we buildthought leadership and how do we build, you know, the the brands around theseparticular individuals and our company as you know, credible sources? Um,without just taking, you know, an exuberant amount of time away from, youknow, billable hours away from our clients. So how do you extract theinformation from your subject matter experts getting the information tostart with. I'll tell you a little bit of kind of the back story. Um when,when we first started, when I first started kind of one man band approachat angle point, um you know, I'd sit down with them, I would interview them,I would, you know, kind of journalist approach, I would take notes, I wouldrecord, and then I found, man like I'm just I'm taking too much time away fromthese people, and then I said, okay, I'm just going to have them write it,you know, here's the topic that we need...

...to talk about. If you can go and createlike a presentation or if you can write an article about this, that would begreat, and then they send it back and I'll be like, man, this is crap, right?Like great content butthole, man, like it is hard to read write like not youknow, expert writers and, and and then the tone and voice was coming across sodifferent across so many different people, right? And so just like whatwas coming back to me was not stellar. Right? Again, the subject matter itself,the content of the sub, like regarding the subject and the quality of thatcontent, it was great to be honest, even like reading into it, I would lookat it and I'll be like, I think this is great. I like I think this is right.Like I don't have no way to verify that this is right and that those kind ofchallenges that we're facing as what, what impacted the process that we'vebuilt today, um for us and this, this particular approach, it works for us.It might not work for every organization, but I think there arequite a few that that this would be applicable for where one. man, we first,we have to identify what topics do you need to be talking about, right? Um andif it's going to be cutting edge, if it's going to be relevant or if it'sgoing to be, you know, really deep or something new based on an older topic,you do have to know and understand the industry and what's happening, right?And as someone who's not a subject matter expert, especially in all thedifferent verticals in our organization. That's hard, right? So one thing thatwe've done is we've created an internal way for people to report on like newand emerging topics for us, we use Microsoft teams. So within teams, wehave a channel that says, hey, anytime you see something new or some like ahot topic, throw it in here like report it right? Tell us about what's going on.And then we, we kind of get put on our journalist hats and we startinvestigating. You know, someone had just come into that. This new thing ishappening. You know, this new trend or like this is where things that wepredict, things are going to go. Um, that's where we really startinvestigating deep on the marketing...

...side. Uh, and then we'll schedule sometime with that particular person who commented or with a couple of differentpeople within the organization. We'll do some short interviews just to get abetter idea of what's happening. And then one of the best things that we'vebeen able to find is, well actually create a webinar, right? We will, willmeet with the particular subject matter expert, who, who is, you know, the bestperson to talk about this particular subject. And then we will set up awebinar will market will get people to drive people to come to our webinar.And in the process of creating the webinar and preparing the presentationthe subject matter expert. They put a lot of thought and you know, they doput it's not a significant amount of time that we found, but um it probably,you know, four or five hours, maybe a tops um that they create thispresentation prep for that webinar. And then after the webinar is done, we takethat and then we repurpose it right. We create articles from that. We createsocial content from that. We create audio clips from that micro videos andwe just reuse it the blog articles. Then we really focus on the keywordsfor search engine optimization. In addition to, you know, it's a thoughtleader piece, but it's also very much a search engine optimization piece. So weare repurposing that content without having to involve the subject matterexpert, you know, um time and time again. We, because they've alreadycreated it right, they've already created that content with the webinar.Uh and then we're just repurposing it so we don't need to go and say, hey,can you, can you verify that this is right? Or can you can you check ourwork on this? But even then, like, um there are times when maybe we're notdoing a webinar or we're not doing uh you know, a podcast or something. So ifwe're going to say just create an article, we will have a similar processwhere we'll sit down with them, will record them talk about a certainsubject Uh for maybe 15 minutes to half hour. Then we'll go and we'll write thecontent and then we'll send it back to them and we'll go through our firstround of of review. Um so we have that...

...particular subject matter expert checkthat content to make sure that it's good and that, you know, we're notsaying anything that's going to be embarrassing to us, right? Becauseespecially in our space, and I'm sure that this is very similar in a lot oforganizations where you can say one word wrong and make yourself look likean idiot like your company and you totally uproot like all of the effortsto like build this credibility in this trust and it's like common that doesn'tknow what he's talking about, right? Um, so like in a space like ours and manyorganizations, you do have to be super careful about what you say and how yousay it. So we, for a lot of the content that we create, we actually have a twostep verification or content review process where we don't want to take toomuch time from our experts, but we need to verify and ensure that what we'reputting out its quality. There's I mean, James Carberry talks a lot aboutquantity leads to quality and were very much on board with that, like we're notnecessarily trying to create perfection, but we are trying to make sure thatwe're focusing credibility. So first we have that subject matter expert, reviewit and and sign off on it and then we send it to a second um subject matterexpert as just kind of a second set of eyes and that second person that we'resending it to, um they've got a lot of experience throughout in our industryand throughout the different verticals of our space. They might not have asmuch deep expertise as that first subject matter expert, but as a secondset of eyes, they're really helpful on catching things that maybe that firstsubject matter expert didn't see. So we have the kind of that, that two stepverification content review that's really, really helpful. And I thinkthat that's what has been so crucial for us in creating content, um thatthat people want to read, but also that really helps build that thoughtleadership, that trust and credibility for us. I love how thorough the processis. So essentially I took notes and I...

...was saying these are the kind of thesteps you have, right is identify the topic categories ahead of time that,you know, you want your subject matter experts to kind of pay attention to.And then you created a channel, you did it on teams, but it could easily bedone on slack or other kinds of internal chat system. Or they couldjust kind of post things that they saw were interesting. What was unclear isin between that. Do you identify as they're posting things to this channelto you as the market or pick out which one do you want them to do webinars on?Yeah, that's a great question. When it comes to like, uh which topics we'regonna do a webinar or what topics we're going to do? Maybe just an article on.We will uh this content, we actually have a content review team. I wastalking about going through the first person in the second person, the secondset of review. Like we have a channel within teams, you can do this on slack,but that's where we post um kind of our plan for the content that we want toroll forward with say, hey this, this looks like a topic we should reallyinvest in. Um we're thinking about doing a webinar and we'll have thecontent review team look at it and they'll say, hey, yeah, actually youdefinitely need to look into this or in others, they might say, actually, uhmaybe not, don't spend too much time. Maybe write an article about it. Causelike we're not ranking very high for any of these terms, may be doing S. C.O. P. S on this and you know, it's still a great piece to share onlinkedin, but maybe don't be as invested on, on the way that yourrepurchasing or building more committed content for. I love that you're jumpingright into webinars after you identify the main topics you want to hit, it'slive, it's, it forces them to really think through what they're going to say.So their delivery is really good. Oftentimes when you just come andrecord things, I don't know, it could take more time. I don't know. I guessyou can go back and forth because I like being able to jump on a podcast,just record and being able to box something and they know that theeditors are going to get in the back end. But once you've done the webinar,that's one that's a whole different. You could do things live, which is awhole channel in itself and then take and push it to Youtube or somethinglater. That's a different channel. Um,...

...and then splinter it up into all kindsof different pieces. And generally if they did a good job on the webinarwhile you're running it through two different filters to make sure it wasgood, chances are probably pretty good. It's going to be pretty clean andprobably rarely gonna need like much editing from there because they had todo it live, which means they did a lot of homework out ahead of time. So I'mnot surprised they're spending you know 2 to 4 hours preparing for its probablya good amount of time because you're going to save time on the back end justediting it right? So I love that process that way. You're just kind ofcoordinating it, getting them your internal subject matter experts tocreate the content that's relevant because they're paying attention towhat's going on out in the world in this industry. And as they surfacethings, they you flag it, they come up with a unique opinion about it, do itas a webinar, get it out there and then you splinter it out to reinforce thatpillar piece of content you mentioned to me before in this just beforerecording that you had an internal set, but you also have an external set tocapitalize on thought leaders outside of your company. So tell me a littlebit more about that process. Yeah, absolutely. You know, this is this ismaybe a little bit unique to our space, but I think it's also applicable to toothers as well. For those who are familiar with Gartner, it's, it's aresearch organization. They do a lot of events, but they're very trusted source,right? They do also something called the Gartner Magic Quadrant. I'm surethat a lot of of listeners have heard this or have seen this before wherethey kind of plot where organizations are on on kind of this uh, this toaccess quadrant, right? If you're in the top right, you're usually theleader, right? And Gardner is very careful in the way that they positionthings where you know they want everybody on the on that magic quadrantto be uh to be seen in a great light. But you know if you're in that topright quadrant like that's that's the place to be, that's the top spot. Yeahand for marketers listening to this to me it sounds like as I was unfamiliarwith them. I've heard of them it's a big name but at the same time like ohit's kind of like G. Two which more...

...marketers and I think maybe startupsare probably more familiar with G. Two but you're dealing with like I. T.Enterprise where there's just a different gatekeeper when it comes toreviewing who's who out in the tech world, right? Yeah. And and at Gardnerthey have a lot of uh you know really knowledgeable experts and thoughtleaders, right, who they hire to come and do a lot of this research and thento, you know, publish content materials that other organizations can purchaseand can learn from. And they, you know, Gardner is a great source of greatwatering hole, write a great source of information. Uh, you know, speaking ofthought leadership. Um, and for us this kind of external approach is um, a lotof people go to Garner saying, hey, you know, like we're looking for for thistype of solution and we're looking for this type of vendor, anyrecommendations or any referrals, anywhere you can send us to for thistype of thing. And in our particular space that happens all the time, peopleare going to Gartner for, you know, for some guidance and direction and wewanted Gardner to know who we were, right, and we want a gardener to knowwhat we do and um not just at at a surface level, but we wanted to buildthat brand perception, brand awareness and thought leadership in the eyes ofGardner, right? So we're targeting Gartner in a way, you know, kind oftarget marketing, um you know, targeting gardener so that they see usin that light, um you know that we want to be seen to perceive us as industryexperts, but the way that we've done it, like it's a difficult thing to do andwe found that, you know, Gardner, I think Forrester as well, you can dothis with them as well, but you can pretty much purchase a package or youcan pay to spend time with them. And they will review like any, pretty muchanything that's called an inquiry, a gardener inquiry, you pretty much umthey will review anything that you want to talk with them about. And let's saythat you're going to create, you know some a blog article or a presentationor you're gonna do a webinar your...

...website literally like anything youwant them to look at and review. You can sit down and have them look at that,they'll give you some feedback and then you can then implement that feedbackand just, you know, make it better right? Whenever you're working on now,the beauty in this is as I'm having them review the content that that we'reworking on, um they see that content and they learn the depth and breadth ofwhat we do, right? So they get to learn, say I'm going to write an articlespecifically, you know, in the marketing world. They've got a Gartnermagic quadrant for marketing automation. Let's say I'm gonna meet with Gartnerabout you know how this new integration with linkedin right? Where I can talkwith the marketing analyst and they can learn everything about this integrationwith linked in and while I am, yeah, I'm trying to get their feedback, I'malso educating them on what we're doing and how great of a solution that we'reproviding. Right? And then as we do that we're building that, reported thatreputation with these Gartner analysts. And then when people go to gardenerssay Gardner, who should we go check out? Right. Um for this is you know, theseare our challenges are pain points, we need help with uh you know, linked insome of our marketing automation and they said, oh you know what, I was justtalking to dan Sanchez and he told me this like really cool stuff that he'sdoing with like some of his linkedin automation stuff like that's gonna betop of mind for them, right? You know, So would you be doing this withfeatures of your service or product or would you be doing this with yourthought? Your unique thought leadership ideas? Yeah, dan. I mean it's bothright? That's a great question, but it's both like, we'll do that for forwe want them aware of the products and services that we're offering, but wealso want to, you know, to be able to pass on um that thought leadershipcontent that we're creating both for feedback. I genuinely want theirfeedback there really, it could be like a unique methodology or approach toidentifying a problem. Maybe everybody russell's with the same problem, man,that's a really interesting take. So...

...you're getting the kind of the some ofthe industry gatekeepers and I don't know what else to call them, butthey're like the ones that people go to the trusted authorities on the topicand essentially get into paying them to review it in. So doing you are onegetting valuable feedback. It's probably worth it just for the feedback,but also getting on their radar so that you're in their minds, so that whenthey're either reviewing the category that you're in or giving advice toother people, because again, other people are going to them paid andprobably unpaid sometimes, who knows? You're in their minds, you're cementingyour position, your cementing your thought leadership. So those guys arenow going to all their other customers and probably mentioning you when it'srelevant. We've had a lot of referrals come from Gardner and it's beenincredibly impactful for our business to the tune of of seven figures, right,man. So is that I was just going to lead into like what would have been theresults of doing this? So do you have more specifics around like the numbersof what this thought leadership has done? Yeah, I mean without getting toospecific, I can't legally get too deep in here. But I can tell you that it hasbecome such a key component to our marketing strategy because of itsimpact, that it's one of our key drivers, right of new revenue. Andthat's, I mean, everything that we're doing, that we've been talking abouttoday, the metrics that we're looking at is ultimately its revenue, right? Ifyou're not looking at that revenue metric, then you're missing a big pieceof this. And are you attributing that by people coming in, new customerscoming in when you ask them like the proverbial question, like how did youhear about us? And they're saying Gardner? Yeah, that's exactly rightYeah. Thing. And they probably play into each other, right? So you're doingthe first step by getting your internal subject matter experts and you'reconstantly have like a little bit of a machine, like creating thoughtleadership content that way. Um through the process, we just talked about, areyou taking like the best pieces from that and pitching those two Gardner?Yeah, the content that we create, that we're specifically going to show thegardener. I mean we're not going to...

...show them everything right, We're goingto show them the pieces um that are most important that helped build, youknow, that that perception, right? It's it's kind of that branding piece, thebranding strategy, it's the the analyst and and thought leader aspect ofbranding for the company and are individuals, right? Because we alsowant to show like who who's creating this content like that. All this was uhthis person on our team and this person on our team and then we'll have thosepeople meet with our analysts as well. So it's not just I'm like, actually Ivery rarely meet with Gardner myself, right? I send the creators of thiscontent, the creators of this thought leadership material so that they arehaving face time and interacting with these analysts, Right? That's a superimportant piece, man. I think this is a pretty good 12 punch one on reproducingcontent systematically from your internal experts, but also gonna almostan outbound strategy for getting the thought leadership out there andgetting it validated, you know, stamp of approval from other people that arethat your customers respect. Um, if you're a SAS company, go and find thegatekeepers, the people everybody's looking to for information and see ifyou can get in front of them if you're selling SAS and there's probably a lotof service people who are working with lots of customers, right? So like, Imean, sweet fish could be one of those, right? We're podcast agency. We have, Idon't know, 85 active shows and we've launched hundreds of podcasts. So wehave a bit of a voice in podcasting. But if you had podcasting tech, I'mlike, I don't know, maybe you should come find me. Right. I could probablybe, I'm a like a micro, very tiny micro influencer between like the rest of theSwedish team. But it wouldn't be, it probably wouldn't be a bad thing,especially if you wanted to reach like b to be like podcasting people. Butthere's probably, that's just a very small case. And to be tacked. Like ifyou went to, um, if you're in demand gen probably want to go find chriswalker and see, have a little conversation with them, see what youcan do now. He's pretty tight lipped about his vendors and what herecommends. And he's actually kind of anti tech sometimes, but you know,trying to find the gatekeeper, the...

...influencer or the organizationalgatekeeper in your case, Gardner who's seeing a lot of people having lots ofconversations and is generally respected in the industry and seeing ifyou can get in front of them. Yeah, it's the third party source, right? Whois the third party source that everyone's going to that watering holefor information, uh, and direction on where they should go, right? And if youcan build a reputation, report with them uh, than the referrals. You know,there's big opportunity there, what we've been talking about here. There'sa referral aspect here. Thought leadership aspect to your contentmarketing aspect here, right? There's a lot of, you know, different kind ofapproaches to this kind of, wrapped into one, but definitely all aroundthis idea of building credibility and trust in your organization and yourpeople and that's fantastic. Is there anything I missed in breaking down thismethodology and the results that you've gained? Um No man, I think we'vecovered it pretty well. I just say that like, it may seem like a big dauntingtask and like, oh man, this is pretty heavy, How are we going to get the earof of, you know, this particular organization or this particular person,you know, the chris walker or the gardener, Right? But first and foremost,it's important to understand in your space to identify who these, you know,these other influencers are and thought leaders. Like there's an influenceraspect here, Like B2B influencer marketing, like that's a thing to write.But identifying who they are and then, you know, trying to build relationshipswith them, right? That's right. You can do it on social media, you can do it byyour podcast and interview them on your show. I'm actively doing it pretty muchevery day doing it right now. So, a man, that is a great point to wrap up theshow. Where can people go to ask you follow up questions and learn moreabout angle point if they have more questions after this? Yeah, absolutely.You can find me on linkedin. I'm pretty active there also, you can go to anglepoint dot com, find more information.

Um but Lincoln is definitely theeasiest place department. Fantastic. Again, thank you so much for joining meon GDP growth. Thanks man, appreciate it. Mm mm For the longest time I was askingpeople to leave a review of GDP growth in apple podcasts but I realized thatwas kind of stupid because leaving a review is way harder than just leavinga simple rating. So I'm changing my tune a bit instead of asking you toleave a review, I'm just gonna ask you to go to beauty growth in applepodcasts, scroll down until you see the ratings and reviews section and justtap the number of stars you want to give us no review necessary. Super easy.And I promise it will help us out a ton. If you want a copy of my book, contentbased networking, just shoot me a text after you leave the rating and I'llsend on your way, text me at 4074 and I know 33 to 8.

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