B2B Growth: Your Daily B2B Marketing Podcast
B2B Growth: Your Daily B2B Marketing Podcast

Episode 1736 · 4 months ago

Customers First, Strategy Second, with Kaylee Edmondson

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

In this episode Benji talks to Kaylee Edmondson , Director of Demand Gen at BrightWheel . Formerly at Chili Piper .  

Discussed in this episode: 

  • Working to understand your customers
  • Pivoting away from a mql/sql approach
  • How to crawl, walk, run into a more ungated content structure

Conversations from the front lines of marketing. This is be tob growth. Welcome back to be tob growth. I'm your host, Benjie Block, and excited to have Kaylee Edmondson with us, director of Demanjin at bright wheel. Many of you will know her from her time at Chili Piper. Kaylee, welcome in. Yeah, absolutely. Thank you so much for having me. I'm pumped to be here. Yes, so you've been through a shift, which is part of why I wanted to invite you on to BTB growth, because what, five months ago, you went all right out of Martech into Ed Tech, which is not a small pivot, and want to go let's talk about the change, let's talk about what you're seeing and learn something from that for our marketing audience. Tell me, like a specific change here off the top, that maybe you weren't expecting and has hit over the last five months as you go into Ed yeah, I know, I think that's super fascinating. Call out one that I will admit I didn't take to heart as much in early days. The calling for me to move out of Martech and Ed Tech felt it just felt right. I felt a calling or like very passionate about right wheel and the technology itself. So it never really crossed my mind like, Oh, this actually it's going to be like maybe something very different from what you've been doing for like literally the entire rest of my career to this point. The largest piece, I think, that stood out to me the most is like just the high level aspect that innovation in spaces that are not Martech is very, very far behind, especially in demand Jen. You think about all of the growth and momentum that demand Jen as a function has made in the last five years even. Yeah, all of that is really like hyper growth within this Martech bubble. Once you move outside of Martech and...

...you're bringing that Lens and you know that like, quote unquote, like playbook, all the learnings, all the experiences I've had within this Martech bubble, and then you're moving yourself into this d tech space, it's almost like paralyzing at first how behind, honestly, just how behind everything is. There's so much in that aspect, low hanging fruit for you to really sink your teeth into an early days and make huge strides for your business. Interesting. Yeah, so I used to live overseas and we would talk about how America in many ways was like twenty years, twenty five years ahead in whether it's technology or just certain systems and things, and I think of that too in like Martech to others. And we just did a survey where I had a response I was reading this morning, Kayley, where the guy was like, I love your show, but you talked to so many Martech leaders and I want to hear you talk to some other just tech leaders in other industries, because they're not all experiencing what your guests are talking about, because the pace isn't quite the same. And I think that's exactly kind of what you're experiencing now, right. No, I think it totally is, and it's literally in every aspect, right from from SEO to the paid entity, how we're tracking and measuring success, alignment between sales and the customer, success leadership, like all of that is so, so different. And again, right, I'm moving from it years of Martek experience to one at tech experience. But in this said Tech Opportunity, I do have like a really nice group of mentors and almost like a board team that we partner with as a company so that I can talk to other growth and demandain leaders that sit in other non MARTEC SASS based solutions, and even they are on this same scale of just like at least being five to ten years behind the bubble that I've just come from. What I like about it is you can take like the best and not just the hype, because sometimes in Martec we're guilty of like what's the next...

...cutting edge things? So like let's just attempt at all built right and then stump stuff just doesn't land or doesn't last at all. So I think of your time and specifically because of your time and Demandain, you could just come in, you could go like, I'm going to run my playbook. You have your ways of thinking about it that you're bringing with you, but how did you determine or kind of come in and decide, like what you wanted to do first and really take advantage of those early days at bright? Well, now that's been like five months, you can kind of look back with a little bit of hindsight, right. Yeah, I know, absolutely, I think so, and I think that, to your point about a playbook, playbook is like becoming a word. That is almost like when marketers say campaign, it's like us so much that it liked means nothing. Playbook is starting to feel that way for me, to where it's not really a playbook, though. There is no scenario, no scenario at all. Even if you are moving from Martech to Martech Company, your buyer should still be slightly different. Your value probably different. Where this people hang out is probably different, like all of it is different literally by company. So to take the approach from Martech to Ed Tech or in any company of like, Oh, I did all of these things at this company, they will be directly applicable at this new Gig, I just know it is setting you up for failure day one. So I think that what's more important is having a really strong first principles mindset of being able to dig into your existing ecosystem really partner so, so close with your customer base, get to know who they are, how they think, where they live, how they talk. More importantly, right I'm moving from ten years of experience where I'm talking to people who largely talk like I do, who's daily pain points are the same pain points I'm experiencing, into a world where our primary buyer is now center directors, owners operators of preschool centers. I, admittedly, have never been an owner or an operator of a preschool center and they care about drastically different things than this world them coming from. So what's going to set me up for success in...

...this role is like, first and foremost, I really need to get to know this body of humans, how they think, where they live, what they care about, things that would really improve their day and make a difference in how they're able to run and operate their center at scale, and figure out how to implement that into what we're actually going to market with. Now, this first principle's mindset, though, of Demandin is like very much applicable even to like my days at Chili Piper. Coming in here. We still have, like we still have programming, we're still advertising a multiple channels, we have a crm, we have a marketing automation solution. Like all of those things are the same, right. So start with what you know. They get into your existing data set, understand where there are huge drops and conversion rates or gaps in your funnel, etc. And start optimizing there. The output is what's going to be drastically different, right, like how do we reach these people? How do we impact them? How do we talk to them? How do they stop? How do we stop them in their scroll right. These people are some of the most overworked and underserved in the world and desert like deserve so much more. And so how do we really capture their attention in a way that is impactful and then, ultimately, obviously, will help us meet our goals and grow our business? Yeah, let's talk about how you've gone about connecting with with these people, because it's a change in mindset when you can't just relate naturally, but you're going, all right, I want to get in your shoes in a sense that I can then equip our team to like be best serve right the market. So what does that look like? How have you gone about that, trying to connect? Is it customer calls? Is it even like? What has it looked like to connect with these people? Yeah, absolutely. So I'm very fortunate that I've come into an organization that years ago understood the value of creating a community. So we do have our own owned community in a facebook group that has a couple thousand members. So that's awesome. Basically started by just reading. They hang out on facebook. All of these are really big fans of facebook. So, which is also shift for me. Naturally, I'm coming...

...from like a largely a linkedin world jumping into this facebook world, but we do have, for over threezero members in a private facebook community that are very active and talk about problems, wins, issues that they're dealing with, parents, communication styles, like all kinds of things that are top of mine. For them, they go to this community to try and seek out help from their network, which is great for us to be able to consume as well and help facilitate that that networking abilities. That was my first like line of Defense, was to really just start in immersing myself there and consuming the conversations that were happening outside of that. In my first at least two weeks to three weeks here, I had partnered with our CS lead to be like hey, we have thousands of customers. Can like how does this work? Like I don't want to be super like disruptive of your process or your flow. Tell me which fields or values I need to look for and sales first, to know that I'm like within bounds to be able to give these people a cold call. She's like sure, no problem, here you go, like these are the filters I would use. Call anybody. Just log it and sales for so that we know you've chatted with them whatever. So I just started cold calling customers three to four weeks in, set myself like a self attained goal to call, cold call and connect with forty of them, and just logged it all. I had six questions, logged it all on a spreadsheet. Got Some really, really good qualitative feedback. But also, like in a world where daycare visits or visiting preschool centers isn't really an option right now because covid protocols and things, it really did allow me to, interestingly enough, immerse myself in their day. These teachers, educators, center directors answer the phone in the middle of a zoo. You can hear the zoo in the background running around. They're, you know, trying to organize children, get their jackets on, get ready to go outside for playtime, wash their hands, get ready for lunch. Like they will call you in the middle of a storm. They'll answer and they're super excited to chat with you. So they're just like very eager to share their story and talk about their center and how much passion they have, you know, for helping out the students, that they're able to help all these things. But in the the...

...middle of chaos, which was also quite illuminating to me things that will never show up in a spreadsheet, that these people are so insanely busy. Like, if we are going to take any amount of their time, we need to make sure that it is like the best use of their time and that we're also allowing them some freedom to like potentially be mobile while we're chatting with them. Right, like they're not all like us. They're not on their laptop all day long, so that that experience in and of itself to literally just cold call and connect with customers has been super, super helpful for me and early stages, and it makes the facebook group makes so much sense to because when they're that busy, if you can just jump on there as a way of connecting at a moment when you're free, it seems just so natural, in the same way that like Linkedin is. You know where I live, but I lived there because it's where the idea of people are that would have problems that I have. So sounds like a so different because facebook group seems like such an old thing, but then at the same time you're like it just logically makes so much sense, which actually leads perfectly to one thing I wanted to bring up because I think it was the end of two thousand and twenty one you had wrote an article or talked about this idea of like cultivating a social first culture at Chili Piper to drive demand, and I wondered now, just being in this different space, has social state like how his social stated key component in the new strategy and and what is it look like? Do you think of social, like a social first culture, being something you're developing now? Yeah, so I think that social first for Chili Piper had different outputs or like value points. Right obviously it helps us for our business itself, but it also gives like crazy dividends to our interview and applicant pool. So for right will specifically, I still think like we do have several players here that are starting to lead the way for what social can do for this business organically, like outside of paid levers for prospecting, and I still feel like it's making a huge impact, but different impact hiring right primarily. If we are active as employees on Linkedin, it's largely for hiring.

However, we do have some ideas in our pocket around us really becoming the category leader for innovation in the early education space. Early Education as a whole is largely underfunded and behind on innovation in terms of where we, as bright will, would love for that industry to be. And so we would love to leverage better, leverage linkedin from a business perspective, not only for hiring but also to help establish us as that category leader for helping leverage our technology and our insights in the space to really propel this industry forward. Now, that doesn't necessarily mean that we'll be breaching center directors there, but in the EC space that's also very intertwined with government. There's a lot of other committee members that could be involved in helping not only bright will be successful, but helping US really propel this industry forward that are on Linkedin right. So it's like anybody that's in government is on Linkedin. Anyone that would be working for a corporation for some of these larger early education conglomerates also on linkedin those types of things. So I think our play will be different because, like first principles, I still think that it's important for us to be present there and to make it known like who we are and how we can help people. But the play will be very different than it was from that at Chili Piper. Interestingly enough, all of these people are on facebook. So we will be making a larger move on facebook, but not from personal ending. It will be from a company account. Okay, we have hired a subject matter expert to come in house and work for us full time, which will also really help us unlock some levers in bringing that combination of like the power that you get from hiring an same and having an expert on your side really attached with the like authority, credibility and brand profiles itself. So that's the angle that will take for facebook, instagram, etc. I love the subject matter expert side of things. Can we talk about that a little bit more on how that will play in like a facebook side of things? Like what is...

...that interaction look like more of like in the community? Is it something you create events around? What's the idea? Yeah, so we're super, super lucky and very glad to be on boarding a new member. She's actually in a set on our content team. She spent the last ten plus years actually in the field, and the last three years of that specifically as a center director, which is perfect. That's the exact persona that we also need to like really get like closer with embody understand way better, and thankfully she is that. So she's going to be definitely like an internal evangelist for us so that we understand better who we're talking to, how to communicate things, etc. But then also we'll have a huge outward facing play for us as well. So yes, it will come in the form of weekly live offense that will, of course, be repurpose, redistributed etc. In shorter content snippets across social but specifically like exclusive content for our community. Of course she will play a much more active moderator role there as well, because we have so many people that ask very lovely, brilliant questions that like we are marketers, we're not yet ready to like provide actual value. Nor do we have the credibility individually for me to go in and be like, Oh, yeah, this is what you should do at your center, like who am I? But if she responds that way, she has all of that credibility built up from her years of experience in the field to be able to provide real value and that helps shine bright whell and such a better light than a marketer responding to somebody's pain point. So, yeah, she'll become a much more active moderator in the community. Will definitely be doing some first party like original sourced content weekly through like a live event style that will redistribute and published, as well podcasting things of that nature will all be like coming to light. We're in the middle of like that sprint of planning right now, which is super exciting. So is the way you're thinking about her being on this team as like a just essentially a thought leader, like that's what her daytoday brain is set on executing. Yeah, cool, honestly, that's excellent. I love...

...that and that's such a that's a play that I think many of us should be thinking about, because we're creating solutions for industries that maybe you know, especially as markers, we don't really know their day today. We might have customer knowledge because of conversations we're having, but you talk man a completely different angle on how you can add value when you bring someone on your team like that. So that's gold right there. The other thing I wanted to bring up in this episode with you and just fig your brain on is I know in the past that Chili Piper, you guys talked about ditching lead scoring and you took like a crawl, walk run approach to use intent data to essentially activate you know, SDRs. Am I right in assuming you probably walked into a situation, because we're talking about ten years or twenty years in the in the past, where mtls ql is still very prevalent? And how how are you thinking about that conversation now? Yes, so you like hard yes to all the things you've just said. You're absolutely right. Lead Jen, like this bright will for its existence, has largely been a lead Gen play, and I feel like most other companies that are outside of this Marttech bubble are also very much in that space, which is probably why, when those leaders that you've chatted with or like, you need to interview people outside of the Martech bubble, because it is so, so different. So it's like this mql hamster will that was happening, like you know, ten years ago. For me in the MARTECH world, is still very much where we're at today. We have a lead scoring model. We have, you know, an St a prop like a traditional str team. We have an outbound SDR organization. However, she's breaking out in hives as we she says this. I think we are still and I'm like saying this I hope all the bright wheelers are also going to listen to this'll take a crawl, walk, run approach to innovation, because we dopers like see even leadership that's here right, that was here before I was here, to come in and just like literally disrupt everything already. We're seeing that as well, that like we do need to make a huge change and how we are running our pipeline and how we're optimizing...

...our funnel. And so we've just bought Chili Piper, stead it up, implemented it step one. So that's cool. That will allow us the freedom and it's like I think that when leaders or whoever come on, you know, and talk about all the things they're doing and ditchingly scoring, it sounds fancy and like it sounds very like disruptive, but the the practicalness of it is that, like we will also get there at bright will, but our approach is going to have to be stronger where it's going to have to be longer. We are a much, much bigger business here than I was at Chili Piper. It's easier and less friction to make drastic changes at small companies than it is obviously to like redirect a cruise ship. So we're redirecting the cruise ship. However, full faith that we will do it. Our first step is to implement Chili Piper and start understanding substantially more granular data around our mql to SQL handoff and conversion rate. That will allow us to get slowly to layers where we can start testing and iterating on better handoff processes. MMM, who knows? Like I can't predict the future. I wish I could. That wouldn't that'd be so lovely. But what I do know is that we can test our way into proving out. Do SDRs work in this model for this business? Maybe they do, and maybe we have to keep them because to like a get into really technical details. Through it it at. Coming from Martech, we are able to leverage tools like clear bit or Zoompho form comple Lee that allow us to do so much of our auto enrichment. That allows us to go from, you know, a ton of fields upon form submission down to like three, because we know everything about you. Because marketers are online everywhere, it's easy to find your information, auto enrich, qualify and route you directly to an account. Executive for that Demo. Here we're talking to center directors. Some of them are running in home centers with four children. They apply with like their childhood Gmail. We can't use clear bit or Zoom Info to figure out who this person really is. So we need to know a lot about you and it might not make all sense for...

...our business to pass every form submission directly to an account executive. But we can take a blended approach. Some people are more findable. Some people do work for larger centers that are more businessminded, less of an inhome operation. Those people we can find information about them online. We can ask them fewer questions. We can auto qualify them better up front and give them a more streamlined experience and a fast track to get with an account executive and get a demo. Others in which, you know, we might need to take a more traditional approach. Get them on the phone, make sure they even understand what we do and that we can actually help them. Then get them on like hot pass them over while they're on the phone to an account exex so that it's a more steamless experience, less of a like schedule. Will get back to you next week whatever, but the playbook. Still to this point two will look different than the like dramatic forward facing playbook that we were able to stand up a Chili Piper. Yeah, it's the cruise ship. Analogy is a a good one in this situation too, because you wonder why, like outside of the bubble, you know we it's like we make fun of the MQLS ql conversation in the bubble, but then's like, okay, but if you were, if you had adopted this structure and then you're in a massive company, you not going to like you need a lot of advocates, you need a lot of time and you're turning this thing and even figuring out the crawl, walk run approach when something essentially feels like it's not completely broken, like why would you change the whole thing? You have to have the right voices in the room to even make that a compelling conversation. So I love that you're even clarifying that because while you could be very passionate on this topic, it's still something where now you put you're put in a different environment and you go, okay, like I wouldn't do it this way. But I also see some of why it ticks the way it ticks and then, okay, let's modify with a crawl, walk, run approach. It's great. Okay, yeah, I think so too. I think so too. Go ahead, I'll let you. I'll let you grow one more at you,...

...which is the gated, verse ungated conversation. How different is content for you guys, and like, what kind of content is being created? You have the community, but, like, are you playing heavy into content? And then, if so, what's the thought around? Gated on gated? That's a good okay, you just like thrown out the the tea today. Okay, here's the deal. When I join right. Well, we were, and I guess technically still are, but it's hard to admit out loud heavy in the gated content game, heavy, heavy, and gay content game, like almost everything, is gated. However, I have started circulating conversations early on about, like what is our what are our thought process behind the why? Like seven years ago when bright will was founded and a lot of these resources that we were putting out really weren't widely available online. And the one of the luxuries, I guess, of moving to this specific Ed Tech space is that it is not overly saturated. So there are like Tenzero Martech solutions. These days, there are like ten of us, you know, in our pool of like competitiveness. So it's like you're going from like tenzero competitors were like your your value is truly not more valuable than your neighbors in the MARTECH world. So you had like we had to start on gating to differentiate here. Not that it's like more or less valuable, but there just aren't that many of us that are putting out this content. So that's why I think we've been able to get away with this gated process for so long. However, we're having a lot of healthy conversations internally about facilitating looking at things differently, I still feel like we could be on the edge of truly providing leadership at like thought, leadership at scale, ungated, no friction. This audience would react so well to less friction in their life that I still...

...feel like it would propel us forward. However, in the same vein that we're trying to make motion on this mql to SQL conversation, this is kind of trailing all of those like leading indicators right like we have gated content because we were held to mql goals as a marketing team. We are now held to s ql goals as a marketing team, which is great, because so is our SDR organization. So our SDR ORG sits with sales. They don't sit with us, but we were very disconnected when I first got here. marketings marching towards and dwells, sales is marching towards S qls. I say all this to say that now that marketing and sales are actually aligned with our goals, it allows us to have these conversations around like wait, we were actually only gating the content, though, so that we could help score it up to an Mql, because number we could say we've met our MQL goal. Even if the sales team, even if they're not buying ready, we're we were still handing them over to the sales team to be like yeah, we medicating your shut. Nope, Prestre, you need to meet for right. And so then when we're starting to see like our mql to s ql conversion rates really start shifting, that's allowing us to have these conversations with ourselves, with our teams and with leadership to be like okay, like we are gaining content for this purpose, but now that mqls are not our North Star. How could we actually operationalize this better for ourselves? Because, like, it's obviously more work to go through and date it, build a dedicated landing page, build follow up page, build the nurtures, build the automation, all the things with lead scoring. Like that's more work for us, but it's also so much friction and such a weird experience for our users. Like how can we actually architect this so much better? So I feel like, though, you have to have the conversations first around actual alignment as a team, and you really need to all be there, like us, the sales team, are ops team, and then our elt all need to be like...

...inlock step that, like, yes, marketing should be held to s qls. Then you can start having these like down funnel conversations around like how can we better leverage lead scoring? Does it intent even? Is that even a thing here? Right? These buyers aren't on GTWO. You can just buy vindtwo. Intent data not a thing, right? So it's like does that even that conversation make sense for this playbook for bright? Will probably not. Can we envisional world in which intent looks different, yes or no? Does that matter in the lead scoring model. How can we look at historical data? The news is we have seven years of historical data around lead scoring. Can we start looking into that and unpacking it and understanding do certain behavior types actually ladder up to buying ready and qels great, like we could actually keep that. That could be really solid versus all these other things we've probably just been doing for years because we've been doing them. Cool, let's DPRIO that and figure out all these other opportunities we could be using natural racist dead right. So those are the types of like first principles. Yeah, it's all about first principles, right. You need to come in with this mindset of like I'm naturally disruptive, just like my personal character is very disruptive. So I'm like I love disrupting things, breaking them apart, figuring out why, but really coming in with like this mindset of like, okay, I think I know what I know, but I know what I know from Martech. What can I take from that and really apply here? That's going to move the needle. Some of it is going to be trash right, some of it I'm just going to be like cool, that was great at Chili Piper, but it's not going to work here, and other bits of it, like standing up a better solution for our handoff process when we are such a velocity game in our processing thousands and thousands of contact requests, is actually going to be a huge lever for us that we haven't had before. So wins and losses across the board. But I think it's all learning game and what's so fascinating is like I felt like I was, you know, done learning really when I was at Chili Pepper. I was like I feel good, like everything felt easy right. It was like we were in the in the...

...groove, and like that was really working for our brand and is still working for their brand today. And then coming here, it's like Ground Zero, right, you're starting over, like there's so much here that I don't know, which is so fascinating and really exciting. I love that being a learner in marketing, constantly having something to learn, is so fantastic. And no matter what kind of bubble you live in, you'll always hit a point where you feel like you're not necessarily hitting a ceiling, but like, okay, I'm in such a comfortable place, and then you go somewhere else you're like Oh, it's not like I knew everything, it's just that I knew that space, the interesting part around content and Kaylee, I wonder this will be my last question before we wrap it. But going back to bringing on a subject matter expert and then thinking of content strategy moving forward, that person obviously can be valuable in your community that's thriving, but also as an external voice and probably someone that is part of your content strategy. So is that part of your move on where you can test some things that are ungated as by having this person exactly exactly, and she is our lover, to like really try and move forward and start providing like firsthand, original sourced content for us, which is something we've never had before. Right. Like we've run webinars for a long time, but it's been a marketer that's running a Webinar. We have great registration and even insane attendance for these webinars. So even these people are extremely busy and overworked and all the things, but they still find an hour a week out of their time to come and join us live for a Webinar. Think about all the people we could actually get to if it's on demand, which on demand like undated, like through a podcast, through these things where people can, you know, listen while they're commuting in the morning to work or whatever like. Those are all very untapped channels for us that, now that we are out of this like mqlmql world, we can actually facilitate the opportunity to stand up better go to market programming, really leveraging her and her insights to do it. Man, if I have a main...

...takeaway from our conversation, I think it's going back to probably the very beginning, but customer first, strategy second, because that informs what we're talking about when we're talking about this subject matter. Expert. It informs what you're talking about with all the ways you're thinking about these just interesting marketing conversations. We can have in arguments, we can sometimes have in our in our mind or with other people. so that's a fantastic takeaway. Do you want to leave us as a marketing audience with anything else as we wrap up today, knowing we covered kind of the gamut? We did cover the gamut, but I feel like it was such a good conversation as a marketing audience. Honestly, though, it's like this right this world, were about to enter into with like a lot of uncertainties. Is a good time for you to pull up as a marketer and make sure that, like, are you jazzed and pumped about whatever you're doing today currently? Are there things where you're like man, we have been doing this for years. Why are we doing this? Like now is your time before like, look, I am no predictor of the future. I've already said that, but like we're entering into a time that's like got a lot of unknown so, like, if there's something about either like your current gag at large, like question that for sure now. But if you love the place you're at but are like stagnant or stale and the things you're doing, like use this time as an opportunity to take a step back and be like wow, okay, starts like a good start. Stop, continue. I think is really powerful, like quarterly, if not more often than that, to be like okay, what should we do? Like we're behind our play. Our competitors are doing this, that and the other. Like what should we start doing? What are the things we've been doing? Because their status quo, like we should question that, like maybe we should stop them. And then, like what are all the things that we should really continue that we're crushing it at and maybe even do more of right. I think this is like a it's such a good opportunity. Marketing S fast right. Marketing S fast paced, regardless of if you're in the MARKTECH bubble or not in the MARTECH bubble, and I think that really giving yourself some grace to take a step back and be like okay, like celebrate the winds, question the things you're not doing great and then continue, you know, to continue to iterate and improve and like there's no better time to do...

...that than now. Love it. You can connect with Kaylee over on facebook and I'm just kidding. Oh, what's the best way for people too? I had to what's the best way for people to connect with you and and for people that want to check out bright wheel? Tell us how we can do that. Yeah, yeah, my bright wheelcom is the best place to check out bright wheel. We're doing lots of cool things over there on the website and obviously can you can come along the journey if you're in the EC space or maybe have a Kiddo in the easy space. Whatever. We'd love to have you and myself. Yeah, although I am spending more of my days on facebook. In my personal life, I'm still on Linkedin, so find me there. Love it. Thank you for stop a by B to be growth. It was a great conversation, Kayley, so great. Thank you so much for having me. Want to say thanks to all of our listeners. Appreciate you sticking with this show and hope that you find these conversations extremely insightful. We want to help fuel your innovation. So if you haven't followed the show yet on whatever podcast platform you're listening on, go ahead and do that so you never miss one of these conversations, and also you can connect with me over on Linkedin. Just search benjy block, talking about marketing, business in life over there. Love having conversations with our listeners, and so if you're free to reach out anytime, we'll be back real soon with another episode. Keep doing work that matters. If you enjoyed a day show, hit subscribe for more marketing goodness, and if you really enjoyed the day show, take a second to rate and review the podcast on the platform you're listening to it on right now. If you really really enjoyed this episode, share the love by texting you to a friend who would find it insightful. Thanks for listening and thanks for sharing.

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