B2B Growth: Your Daily B2B Marketing Podcast
B2B Growth: Your Daily B2B Marketing Podcast

Episode 1680 · 2 months ago

Can PLG and Traditional Sales Play Well Together? with Shanee Ben-Zur

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

In this episode, Benji talks to Shanee Ben-Zur Chief Growth & Marketing Officer at Crunchbase.

Today's discussion centers around how to have your product-led growth motion - self-serve, and your traditional sales team, play well together. This is a breakdown of a hybrid model that can bring alignment and new possibilities to your organization.

Conversations from the front lines of marketing. This is be tob growth. Welcome into be to be growth. My name is Benjie Block. Today I am joined by Shani Benzer. She is the chief growth and marketing officer at Crunch Base Chinny. We are so glad to have you here with us. I'm excited to be here. Thanks for having me. Crunch base is currently strategizing and implementing how product blood growth, selfserve and traditional sales can kind of truly play together in this hybrid model that is hyper effective. I wonder what was the origins of this internal conversation in this drive to want to get the hybrid model locked in? It depends on coming to company. But for crunch based specifically the fact that we have this massive top of funnel. You know, were seventy million people are coming to the website every year. For us, it was a very obvious conversation to have. I would say, you know, if you have what almost looks like a be to be business that has consumer ish tendencies, then having product led growth, thinking about selfserve, is a given. I think the challenge that a lot of be tob companies face is that they operate in more of a like, we'll call it traditional be to be method, where the only way you get prospect is that you're really pushing yourself out in front of them. Those prospects have no need of their own to kind of be inbound. For PLG companies, the opposite is true, and that's what we have for crunch base, where tons of people want to come to crunch base, they want to look up their company, they want to make sure their company information is correct. So that lends itself to having this this sort of like what is our self serve strategy? What is our product led growth strategy? And we also had this kind of two pronged business. One is we license our data and the other is we sell software, and the data licensing is more of like a traditional business, but our software business is the thing that is fully fed by our huge top of funnel and our product led growth motion. So that's really where it all started. So I imagine there's kind of two specific groups we need to address that are probably listening to this. You have the first, and those are companies that maybe are not pelg right, and then second there are those that are looking in. They they are intrigued by a true hybrid approach, because they are familiar with the things that you're doing. We're going to spend the bulk of our time together on that second one, but talk about those in the first group, those in that first category that maybe aren't Pelg, especially because we're in a pretty uncertain time right now, and product led growth, I mean it's I would say it's of utmost important. So and I think you would probably say that as well. Yeah, I mean, I don't want to sound doom and gloom, but it kind of feels like if you don't have a product led growth motion, there isn't a very certain future for you,...

...unless you have like massive investment from BC, which you know is very possible. There's still we're doing a bunch of research and there's still tons of money that's going into early and midstage startups. But the thing about product led growth is it's also a commitment to having like a customer centric model. Product led growth forces you to give value to customers so that customers want to buy your product. Traditional like non PLG be to be enterprise sales. It's really more about like the strength of your sales force. How good is your sales team? At convincing somebody that they might need to buy what you're selling, and I think that will there will always be an element of that that exists, but I think we're seeing in almost every part of the way a person buys anything that we're shifting more towards self serve. I mean you like the quintessential direct sales business is like car sales, and even car sales you have these new startups that are coming in and disrupting, like Carvana, like shift, who are just saying why bother, they're going to a physical parking lot and entering into the pain that is haggling when you could just point and click from the comfort of your computer. And I think that desire to point and click doesn't end with your consumer buying. Like I am also a buyer on the be to B side. I don't want to buy differently when I'm at work than when I'm not at work, and now that we work from home, I'm always in the same place when I'm making these purchases. A good point, and I definitely think on the be tob side there's so many advantages to allowing self serve as an option and having all the information ready for people and then, like we're about to talk about in this hybrid motion, having someone at the level where you would want it. Maybe it's a certain dollar amount, but for those bigger deals, but having a person that can come alongside and really create forward momentum at a certain stage. So that's that second group that's truly looking for an effective hybrid approach, and I want to go into detail there. You've worked in companies with self serve options and traditional sales. Tell me what some of those tensions are that you've experienced and kind of had to deal with. Yeah, so my background is I've worked in pretty much every selling motion from channel to be Toc, to be, Toc to be, to be to be. Some of those companies include in Vidia, dropbox. I was on agency side helping playstation and obviously now crunch base and then sales force as well. See you have kind of like this broad perspective about how different companies sell. One of the you know, the hard things about this plg motion is you are asking a lot of people to change the way they think about selling and those those things are ingrained within the company. So you know, like a sales team is built to take leads and turn those leads into opportunities and turn those opportunities into revenue. If you all of a sudden come in and say, okay, I want you to sell completely differently,...

...there's going to be some tension there because they're their compensation is built on that model as well and an appealog world. But you're essentially saying is okay, sales, not every lead is your lead. Only the qualified leads are your lead, and qualified now has a much more narrower definition than you're used to, and so what they might feel is, oh my gosh, like my compensation is threatened, oh my gosh, I'm not going to be able to hit quota because you're going to be taking customers that I could convert and just converting them through self. Served that's a very like it's a very real fear, but it's also an inside out fear. It's a fear that we created as a result of our incentive structures. So it will require executives that the company reassessing those incentive structures and helping set targets that are more realistic, with this idea of a customer who has a bigger ticket possibility or a customer who has a more sophisticated implementation need. Only those prospects will go to the sales team because they need to talk to a human being. They won't be able to do it themselves, or if they do it themselves, they won't be successful after they convert. So it really it requires change across the entire organization. Otherwise what ends up happening is inevitably there's like this feeling that your number one competitor in for your business is your self serf business versus your direct sales business. And if that's what you're experiencing, that means that there's something intrinsically wrong with the way the teams are set up. You should have it be more like the ideal state is sales loves the SELFSERF BUSINESS BECAUSE A it creates more qualified leads for them. Let's say you have a lower price product. People convert into that lower price product. That is a signal that people understand the value of our product. Now sales can just kind of start mining within the existing customer base for up cell opportunities or, like selfserve, could do a good job of saying, Oh, I'm not able to convert this person through selfserve. They should talk to a human being. Let me pass it on. So they've done what maybe a traditional str team can do through selfserve. So it's kind of like the fear is there change management is required and it could be like a somewhat help hefty lift. So you've worked in companies with selfserve options and traditional sales. What are some of those tensions that you've experienced and had to deal with? Yeah, so I've worked at at several companies that have both of those. Just as a little background, I've worked for in Vidia, which had more of like a channel sales. I work for sales force, which is traditional bet to be not much self serve. I worked for Dropboxx, which you know, are arguably is one of the pioneers of self serf businesses, and now crunch base, which is kind of like an amalgamation of all of the above. And I think what I've observed is that if a company is not set up to have a hybrid business, meaning they're not set up to have selfserve and direct cells live in symbiosis, like in perfect harmony, they will inevitablely be an internal competition where you...

...know, if you ask the sales team, they'll say our number one competitor is our self serve product. If you ask the selfserve team, they'll say, you know, I don't know why the direct sales team doesn't like us. And you know the reason behind that is because companies were not set up to have hybrid go to market motions. They're traditionally set up to have direct sales on the B Tob side and self serve on the consumer side. But the world is changing, right you know, we just talked about how everybody really wants to buy in this more selfserve way. We're used to working alone at our own homes or used to making purchases from our desk. And in order for us to be ready for the future, we're going to be ready to we're going to need to be ready to have these hybrid businesses, and I think it comes down to incentives, right. Like if a salesperson has quota, they are going to want to have all the prospects they can in order to hit that quota. If they're looking at SELFSERV and saying, oh my gosh, they're taking all of my leads and closing my leads at like a lower price, they're not going to feel so good about it, because it's almost like taking food out of their mouths. So I think internally there needs to be some serious change management where we think about what are the right incentive structures. So rather than closing as many deals as you possibly can then you hit your quota, it's more close deals that meet the specific criteria that we figure it out. Makes you more in need of talking to a human being versus talking, you know, through a chat bought in the product or just doing everything self serve. So essentially what that would look like is, let's say, if your product has a version that is under tenzero in a version that is over tenzero, maybe that's not how you divide up self serving direct cells. You never know, some people may have super high credit card limits. Why would you block them from making that purchase? M But if your product is really complicated and a person you know, you find through some of your own research and your own experiments that people who are buying that more complicated solution, without the help of maybe white glove on boarding or what an ae or a CSM can provide, you find that their cancelation rates are really high, then that's a signal that that is something should involve. That should involve some human interaction, and that's how I would want to shift the businesses in the future. Don't make the human or interaction be just about deal size. Make the human interaction be about where can I deliver more value to my customer, and that means reassessing the incentive structure for the human beings who are on the team's yeah, I mean incentive structure is huge. You touched on segmentation there. So maybe it's not dollar amount, maybe it's complication, any other ways that you see segmenting out the audience so you don't end up in a situation where, internally there's this conflict between direct sales and self served. It's almost like segmentation without decision is also going to be important, meaning as a user enters into the byflow or the consideration stage, give them the option to choose. You know, do you want to talk to a human being,...

...because we find that there are even some people on the SELFSERF side, you know, who have the smaller ticket items who just want to ask a question, like they don't want to be sent to help center, they don't want to interact with a robot, they want to talk to a human being. So by having the option to talk to human being when someone wants it or having the option to not talk to a human being when they don't. That can really be helpful and the hybrid motion means that you might have a little bit of both existing at the same time, like so, for crunch face and example is we're looking at ways to strategically insert chat into the free user experience where we might see somebody who looks like they're kind of struggling on a page to figure out how to use the right prospecting tools. You know we rolled out a bunch of new prospecting features. Maybe they don't even know they exist. By injecting a human being into the experience we might be able to say, Oh hey, you may not have noticed, but you can do this thing. It looks like you might be trying to do x action. Here's how you can do it within the product. So it's really about thinking more again about what the customers experiences and then selectively offering both the human experience and the SELFSERF experience and letting the customer choose what is right for them. I think that's extremely smart to give the option of say, Hey, would you want to talk to somebody and it almost creates like warm leads every time because you actually know that they wanted human interaction at that point. In this model for crunch based specifically, is self serve meant to be more of a lead feeder to direct sales or how do you view that? Yeah, that I mean, I love what you said. It's a warm lead. What I think about selfserve is it is the ultimate product qualification for for more complex or higher price products, meaning as customers in crunch based come in and they either become, you know, our selfserve skews are starter or pro. When they come in a starter or pro crunch based customers, that tells us that they understand the value of crunch base and we can start to observe. You know, are there many different people at their company who have also become pro customers? That tells us, okay, there's really an opportunity for this company to have more of, you know, a team's based solution, and that is a signal that they are ready for our enterprise product, which does require talking to a sales person because there's a little bit more complexity in the setup, there's a little bit more complexity in the integrations and there's the things that you can't just do all on your own. So for me it absolutely is like there are degrees of qualification and one of the highest levels of qualification you can have is being a healthy, engaged self serve customer. That to me tells me, okay, you get value and you might get even more value at our more sophisticated, more advanced skew level. So if you're leaning heavy into the PLG selfserve model, what do you see as the hiccups being as you kind look to introduce a direct sales motion that that assists? Yeah,...

I mean we're pretty lucky in that we've been hybrid almost from the beginning. Last year we more officially rolled out the higher level software skew. Previously it was only like a licensing that had direct Celles motion. The last year we we shifted from self serve only on software to selfserve and direct sales on software, and what's great is that I think there has always been an awareness for the value of Plog also for direct sales, meaning the way we look at our funnel isn't everybody has to become self serve first before they ever get to talk to a salesperson. It's more that every single free anonymous visitor to crunch bascom IE, these are the free users of our product, are fremium product. Every single one of those people is a prospect and the question is just which solution is right for them. So it's more about that, like product qualification out on the free side, and we work really closely with our sales team to funnel the right leads to them and then if they start talking to a lead who's not qualified for enterprise, they funnel those people back into selfserve. So we've created this really virtuous cycle where people who aren't ready for enterprise get disqualified and put back into selfserve. Anonymous visitors who come to the website but meet all the criteria for our enterprise product automatically get funneled over to our direct sales team. It's kind of like we're just creating this really efficient what is a good metaphor? It's like a really fial Librarian's pointing you to the rights back at the right time. That's what we want to have happened and we want every person to leave the library happy with the book that they wanted, and that's what we're really trying to do and I think you know, I feel very luckily so. I'm the chief marketing a growth officer. I have a really close relationship with our chief revenue officer. He is a believer in the value of pelg as a lead generation engine for the direct sales team and I think that belief and that partnership is really important because then he enables us to kind of test some of these things which in the short term might look like are reducing the lead volume but in the long term are leading to higher ACV deals, faster deal times, more qualified leads. All of it kind of gets better when you embrace the pelog motion. So you touched on and I want to circle back to this. One of the things you got to think through in this model is who, and I want to break down who that person is in your mind, because there are some specific things that would be nice to either hire four or look for in a in somebody that's going to take on a role like this. But if you're kind of dreaming up your ideal candidate for this assist motion, who are they in your mind? Yeah, so you're touching on this like the gray area that sits between pure self serve and pure direct sales. We've like, you know, a dropbox. We called it selfservicest, that crunch base. We're calling it self servicest and it really is almost like a scaled he human frontline worker force...

...that is a hybrid of a support person, a sales person and that sort of you know library and traffic cop as well. It's not a traditional salesperson in the sense that they don't only have one goal. Their goal isn't just to create revenue. The purpose of this human skilled force is to help a user find value faster than they might have otherwise, not as not have done on their own. So it's kind of like really this space in between. If you have one island that is self serving one island that is direct sales, it's the ocean in between the two. That's what the Self Service syst is. Then the people that I would look for there, I mean, because this is a brand new space that people are comfortable with. I think the first thing is it has to be somebody who is creative, like they're adaptable to an unusual circumstance where their compensation might be some combination of you know, revenue quota, as well as things like net promoter score or customer or sea sat score. So they have to be comfortable with the sort of like new world. They're forging a new path. They have to be extremely customer centric. Right they want to see a smile on the other person's face. I mean they're usually going to be interacting for something like chat or a quick phone call, so they might not see that face, but they have to feel the joy in the other person and that joy has to be their number one motivator. And then they also have to understand, you know, when is the right time to pass this person off. They might be, you know, they're trying to deeply understand the other person, deeply understand their use case and either funnel them back to self serve or funnel them over to the direct sales team. So it's really about finding like people who have the tenacity of sales, who have the empathy of CX and who have the kind of experimentation mindedness of a growth person. And and that's going to be difficult to find. I'm I'm not saying that's going to be yeah, but if you can find those people, this is like, in my mind, this is the future of be to be business. Is being able to create optimal go to market motions that have the best of self, serve the best of direct sales and then this assist in middle ground so that you keep your CAC low. Hmm, I love the breakdown of what this person's kind of personality is. In a sense, I wonder, is this someone you hire from within typically, or are you posting and trying to attract that type of talent? Like, what do you imagine their work background being? I approach everything that I do with like an experimentation mindset, where I don't go all in on something until I have some pretty strong signal that it's worth doubling down. I think specifically within marketing there's like, you know, I've been talking a lot about traditional drect sales versus this new sales motion, but within marketing there's like traditional marketing where you just you know, you've got the mad men experience where they come into a room, they come up with an idea and then they put millions of dollars behind it. Like those days are over. It's more about now I have a hypothesis. If I do x, then why will...

...happen? I have a test in which I can validate or invalidate that hypothesis and then once they prove that a hypothesis is true or see that a hypothesis is true, then I double down. I think the same thing is true for this self services motion. It may not be the right thing for every single company. So I think the way that people should approach it is from an experiment standpoint. I definitely would start with internal people. I would look within like the CX team, anybody who's eager to, you know, move up and out of the CX team. Maybe within the sales organization, any sales managers who are, you know, seeing what's happening of the selfserfside and or kind of interested in the speed. They want to try something new, and I would bring those people over and say hey, we want to have almost like a start up within a startup. Are you interested in building this new thing and help have help them set up these experiments to see does having an assisted motion either shorten the time to close? Does it increase the rate of trial starts or the increase the volume of leads that are generated? Does it increase the ACV? Does it improve the conversion rate? Like like you pick a stage and you see if the assisted motion improves that stage, and what's confirm whether it does or doesn't. Then you decide whether you want to scale the team. So yes, I would absolutely start internally if you see that it can't help you the scaling of that team. I think because you need so many people, you might find that having, you know, being able to recruit from with in is a little challenging. I've seen it work where you partner with a third party, like outsourced team folks who are comfortable dealing with a high volume of chats, let's say, and they can help you achieve that more expansive frontline workforce. But again, you probably want to have people internally who validate and come up with best practices that you then train the external team zone. Yeah, you just touch on something I want to ask a follow up on, because, let's say you run this test great self servicest it works for us, we want to expand the team. Now you have this training and education that's needed and sort of required. So what have you guys implemented to to train up this team and what do you think it's important there? So, at crunch face, we're in the phase of experimenting whether the Self Services Motion can help to capture revenue from disqualified under put prize leads that otherwise might not have turned into anything. HMM. And we validated it right, like we took what would have been zero dollars and we've turned it into tens of thousands of dollars, and those leads are now also pre qualified for future enterprise expansion. So we validated that part of our funnel. The next step is to now validate the Presale, like the almost more traditional self serve part of the funnel, and we're doing that in combination with like expanding where we offer chat and increasing the amount of time that we're sort of borrowing time from our Stur team of an incredible SDR manager who's just so,...

...so great to partner with and he's been really generous and letting US carve sometime from the strs to test these different stages of the funnel. I think we are seeing, though, that, like, the needs of experimentation are so great, while the SDR teams quotas for their traditional selling are also high. So I think we're butting up against the limit of how much the internal team can handle as so we're beginning to think about where we might scale from there. At drop box, you know, there's a more sophisticated program at dropbox we had a very large external scaled sales force. Internal teams acted as kind of like the sales managers to those teams. I on the marketing side acted as the lead generation engine for those SSA teams of self services teams. They acted as the the kind of quick turnaround and or lead qualification for higher order skews. It was a super successful model and I think the challenge that dropbox had was it was such a successful model that they had not even anticipated how much they would get from it and I think that kind of set off some of those red flags we talked about earlier for the direct sales teams who handled more of the large named account sizes, and so you know, we had to work through some of those tensions to identify what are the mutual exclusive swim lanes so that we're not fighting each other. HMM. Okay, so last follow up question on this and getting a little bit more specific on compensation, because I think of the WHO here and depending on what their background is, if they come from traditional sales, you're going to have a different conversation than maybe someone that comes from customer experience or customer service. So how do you compensate for a role like this? The self surfacest roll, anything that we should watch out for when we when we think about that, I think it depends on where you are in the like level of sophistication of your self services program. So while you're in the experiment phase, I would not use a quota based compensation because the quota like people will always optimize their behavior for the quota because they're trying to get paid, whereas in experiment the optimization should be do I trust the outcome of the experiment that I just ran? Like, do I believe the outcome, because that outcome is going to inform what my next steps are, and so I don't want to gain the system, as it were, with something like quota. So I think to start you probably want more of like a non quota based compensation, but you know, like in our case, if we're borrowing time from SDRs, that that might not be possible. So it just depends on where you're pulling. If you're pulling from CX, it's a little bit easier. When you get more sophisticated. At that point my assumption is you kind of know what self servicest is good at, so you can start to put some quotas in place. But your quote is may not be all revenue related. So, for example, if you're putting self servicest early on in the life cycle, so let's say...

...people who are just landing on your website for the first time and they're giving something a try, your quotea there might be successful completions of specific high value actions in the product. Like have you helped more people tried that one feature that you know is highly correlated with customer satisfaction? And then middle life cycle it might be more correlated. Are you getting more people to start a trial or after that, are you getting more people to convert their trial? Convert the trial with more seats in their checkout, convert with more add ons? Are you getting more of the new customers to activate on the high value actions? You see what I'm saying? So like it really the the incentive depends on where you're putting the SSA motion and I think that incentive also depends on what your experiments have told you are like the ideal outcomes. I love the explanation. I think there's so many potential ways you could utilize a self servicest motion. I wonder for you, now that you've run these experiments, you've seen it in a couple different contexts, if we were to drop you in a new company somewhere else and they have a plg motion but they haven't built this out yet, where do you start? What are those first conversations you're having and maybe where are you? What are you looking for? You know, I think I approach my internal change management the same way I approach go to market, which is I would do a top down and a bottoms up the campaign. The top down is I would need the CEO and the crow and the C foe to all understand the opportunity and also the missed opportunity if you don't try this. So you know, this would be about showing the impact on LTV TO CAC. It would show the impact on the a TV, the also again, the LTV of the customer. So this would be more about showing them, Hey, if we were to do this and it would be successful, here's what we could gain if we don't do this. As we continue scaling and you have to, you know, keep adding more and more sales people in order to grow. This is what you're missing, these are the efficiency losses that you're going to have. So I'd be the first thing, like you, get the executives to understand the business impact, the value of it to the business, because once they see that there and again, it's all typed incentives, they're incentivized to say, okay, I want to help see this happen, because if we improve the overall uneconomics of our company a it might make us look more attractive to investors, be and might get us to profitability faster. You know, all the things that executives care about. Bottoms up, it would be more about, you know, understanding how are the reps being compensated today, understanding what the growth team looks like today, seeing if any of those tensions exist already or if they like completely operate in Stilo. So we're really duplicating efforts for them. It would be more about like how can I get you to your target outcome faster? Like you know, you kind of see the theme here, and everything I'm doing is understand what value is to the person I'm speaking to, Yep,...

...and then help them see how what what we want to try is valuable to them. Spoken like a true marketer, you know, like in my mind I am about a vessel right, like it's no skin off my back if you choose one way or the other. But for you, you the executive, or you the individual rep you could be making more money. It just means that you have to be comfortable changing from the old way of doing things and embracing a potentially new way of doing things. HMM. Yeah, think about it, like how much money are you leaving on the table between where self serve drops off and sales picks up? Like that's a big question. It's valuable to those that are in the sea suite and having these conversations about lifetime value and the gain that's there. What are we missing? I mean those are the the crucial conversations that, I think lead you to a place where man self services could really be a game changer for your business. Anything you want to add here as we start to wrap up? Love this conversation. Yeah, I mean I think you kind of touched on the the metrics that are valuable to a business. I think if you talk to any investor, so let's say like your target audiences is startups, they care about what investors care about one of the number one key performance indicators that investors care about is net dollar attention. The kind of like ingredients of net dollar attention are one. What is your rate of upsell of existing customers to? What is your rate of revenue retention of existing customers, like how many people are turning versus not? When you think about what self services can do, let's say you have a super high dollar product and people are ready to turn. Well, rather than the logo leaving completely, what if you just downgrade at them to a lower a lower cost product? This is what self services can do. It can be part of your off boarding process. So, rather than a full on see you later, we'll never work together again, I'll say, okay, I understand you're not getting as much value as you would see for this price on the high value product. Let me introduce you to this lower value product that you can actually check out with your credit card. That logo stays a part of your portfolio, so you have no logo laws. That helps with the net dollar attention. Going the more optimistic route, let's say you have a bunch of self serve customers. If you could get even one ten of those selfserf customers to upgrade into your enterprise product with the help of, you know, these self services, people almost being like temperature checks or thermometers to see where there's hot spots. You could, you know, double your net dollar attention, because you're seeing these customers go from a hundred dollar product to a thousand to Tenzero to twentyzero product. There's a ton of value. And then, I think, to your point, there's the well, what about the people who were never going to be any money and we turn them into some money. So it's either like don't leave money on the table that could be more and don't leave money on the table that could have been zero, but you turn it into at least one. So it's really like just think about where people are falling out of your funnel and how a person who has the profile of this hybrid cx and sales could help you not...

...lose those people in your funnel. I love how we've described this role in this episode. Well, you've described support, sales, traffic cop thermometer and now I love I love all of those descriptions. I think it fits it so well. In Library and library, a library and of the list. Fantastic. Thank you for breaking this down for us. Tell us a little bit about crunch based here as we closed. And then also, where can people stay connected with you? Yeah, so crunchbace is really a prospecting solution. If you're a deal maker, whether that's a salesperson, a recruiter and investor, a startup founder, if you're looking to connect with other companies that have, you know, buying power and are growing, you really want to start with crunch based. It's an account based prospecting tool. We've got all the best data about high growth SMB's, tons of signals like traffic growth, employee growth, by our readiness. It's a great place to start. We've got an incredible free product at crunch bascom. And then, like we've talked about, we've got solutions all the way from the low end up to the super high end. So you can find what you're looking for there. In terms of staying in touch with me, I'm on Linkedin Shinny Benzer, I believe it's in spenser. I'm also on twitter, though I mainly talk about TV on twitter and I'm happy to stay connected with whoever's interested. Well, Shenny, we're so glad to have you on this episode. And there's some really practical things coming out of this one that I think people can walk away with, and I love the breakdown of this self servicest. Thank you for spending time with us here on B tob growth today. Thanks for having me, thanks for checking out another episode of B Tob Growth, and I want to just say if you haven't subscribed to the show yet, be sure to do that on your favorite podcast player. We're always grateful for a rating review over there as well, and I will be back real soon with another episode. Keep doing work that matters. If you enjoyed a day show, hit subscribe for more marketing goodness, and if you really enjoyed today show, take a second to rate and review the podcast on the platform you're listening to it on right now. If you really really enjoyed this episode, share the love by texting it to a friend who would find it insightful. Thanks for listening and thanks for sharing.

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