Brand Vs Branding - The Debate with Sam Moss & Dan Sanchez


In this episode, Dan Sanchez talks with Sam Moss, the co-founder of 1Click Agency about the difference between brand, branding, and what it takes to see success.

Sam Moss takes the position that branding includes creating the logo, website, colors, and swag. Dan Sanchez takes the position that branding is identifying beliefs that make you weird, messaging, rituals, a villain, and a leader.

Listen to them talk it through, share their truths, and unpack the fuzzy topic that is branding.

Connect with Sam:

Mhm Welcome back to BBB Growth. I'm danSanchez with Sweet fish Media and today I'm here with Sam Moss, who is the cofounder of one click agency. Sam, welcome to the show. Hey, thanks man. Alongtime listener. I think I met James probably like a year and a half ago wehad him on our podcast and have been following you guys ever since. So Iappreciate you guys reaching out to have me on the school. That's awesome.It's always good to have listeners on the show. But you posted something onlinkedin that got me thinking and I'm like, oh I need to have Sam onto theshow because I have a different point of view and I love to have people onthe show where we have just like different points of view on a topic tohave a I guess you could call it a debate. It's more like a friendlyconversation. Almost always it ends up somewhere in the middle, but I like tohave it on anyway because it challenges me as a marketer to talk to people whohave a different perspective on topics and today that topic is around brandand branding. You posted on linkedin? Like branding is these things, brandare these things. And before we go into the graphic SAm, I'd love to kick itoff, we're kind of like what is a brand, Like just start real broad for theaudience, what what do you consider a brand and then we can jump into thedifference between brand and branding. Yeah, I would, I guess if I were to sumit up into a sentence, I would say that brand is the emotional connection thatyou have with your buyers. So it's what they think of you and how they think ofyou and how they feel when they hear your name or come across a post onsocial media or whatever it may be. I'd say that sounds about right to me. It'salways it's a little bit more than reputation because reputation has likea personal thing to it. It's kind of like, oh he has a reputation of this,you know, and it could be good, could be bad. It's a few words, it's usuallylike, oh yeah, she's got a reputation of being being super friendly, right?And a brand is a little bit more. Again, I like how you add the word emotionalto it. So well, reputation plays a part for sure. I would say that. I meanwhether good or bad, but yeah, there is way more to it. And I think that thereputation comes alongside a lot of other things. But reputation plays intothe emotional connection you have because if you have a bad reputationthen what happens when they think of you, it's gonna be a not good emotionalfeeling like like why would I want to do business for them because of the X.So that's how I would look at it and on one side of the graphic we have all theactivities labeled or associated with brand. One of which is the reputationof your company. What are some of the other ones you have graphic? So I hadthe reputation I have what people externally think of you. Like I justmentioned like in conversation what goes through their mind when they hearabout you outside the context of business, how you treat your customers,the community that you've built among your buyers. A lot of companies arestarting to do this and it's a community and a brand built around themand the graphic was actually too small to fit another one. But I think areally, really important one that I would have, it's like should haveprobably been on there. But the culture that you internally have as a team. Ithink that goes a long way when it comes to brand because I think of somecompanies because of their culture and not because of even their productnecessarily. I think wow that looks like such an attractive company becauseof how they treat their their employees. So that's that's on the brand side ofthe graphic and I think that just is like a greaterdepth of the outside culture. You know, it's the outside culture is good whenthe inside culture is kind of like, I don't know when it's radiating out fromthe center rather than it just being a facade your agency came up with right?When it's coming from the inside now everything you put in the brand isgenerally what I agree with on what a brand is branding on the other hand isis, in my opinion, how you get to a brand. But what you had on your list isvery different from what I had on my list. So tell us first what you had onyour list and then I'll share what we had on what I would put on my list andthen we'll kind of compare notes. Yeah,...

So I would consider this is andhonestly we might simply just be having a play on words. So I'm curious to hearyour side of this argument in a way. So I would consider Brandon to be thevisual aspect of your company, right? So I had on my list, your logo, yourwebsite, the colors you use, the fonts style that you have even done trendyswag and then cool graphics that you post. Like those are all things that Ifeel are visual and therefore they don't necessarily fall into the brandcategory, but they're in the branding side and I feel like they needed a namebecause a lot of people will say, yeah, we're working on branding and then theygo out and they try to build a community and I'm like, I thinkbranding is something else. So that's how I would define it and I'm curiousto hear what you think about that. So, and again, there's there's definitionsin terms floating around here and we might just organize them differently.But to me, the brand is the outcome, right? The branding is all the work youdo to achieve the outcome, to achieve the reputation you want, how to getpeople to think about you in the way you would want them to think about you,all those things. And to me, branding is more, I'd say the visuals andeverything you put is a small portion, I'd almost put it like an iceberg,you're talking about the things that are the tip of the iceberg, the logo,the website, the colors and the visuals, specifically the videos is all the tipof the iceberg. And I think that's where a lot of people start and that'sand sometimes if you start with those things, you end up with very shallowbrands high, it has all of those things, Hyatt Hotels, but no one really thinksof high it being a great brand. So when I think of branding, I think of thingsthat are like your beliefs, what are your beliefs that make you weird? Right?What are the beliefs and things that you know are true and the things thatyou believe about the world, the things that you believe about, how to treatcustomers and things that you believe should always be true about the productor never true about the product, What are the beliefs about your brand thatare just different and it's not a value proposition, beliefs aren't apositioning statement though. I think your position of course in your marketand your mission should all play into those beliefs sometimes your corevalues are in your beliefs, right? You talked about it being internal, soalmost start like at the very center at all his beliefs and then from thosebeliefs come a message about how you, it's almost like the wordsmithing ofthe beliefs. It could, that's where your slogans come from. That's whereyour, your phrases, your thought leadership, your names like chriswalker talks about the dark funnel that would be messaging, right? It comesfrom the beliefs that message is spread through places where you can't trackand the best ones do right from there. I add like a shared enemy anti believer,some people call it the villain. I almost feel like a good branding workis actually defining who you stand against and it's not necessarily acompetitor, It could be like a way of doing things like sweet fish, we hateboring stuff, right, That could be a villain or actually, no, we're comingup with commodity content is kind of something we've been playing around asa villain we are, that is our villain that were attacking and standing upagainst. I also think rituals play a role into it. So that's to think like,you know, Dave Ramsey is a brand that has a ritual. If you're familiar withDave Ramsey and his radio show, he has people come in and do the debt freeScream, that is a ritual that everybody in his brand knows about and some havepartaken, they have traveled to the place and the pilgrimage to DaveRamsey's, you know studio and done the debt free Scream live. That is a ritualin his brand. And then on top of the iceberg are the icons, essentially allthe branding work I think about that you've said are like the tip of theiceberg after you've done all those other things, then you have somethingto really, it's like that all the visual work and have teeth to itbecause it has substance to it from all the beliefs and messaging and thevillain, the rituals may be a leader.

So when I think of branding, I thinkabout all those things defining all those things before you get to thevisuals now, how does that hit you? Does that come across as like, yes,those are good things, but or do you define it differently? Honestly, I'malmost like, I feel like there should be a third section to this. Like if thegraphic right, has this line down the middle branding versus brand and I feellike a lot of the things you described are a combination of narrative andpositioning, Would you agree with that? No, I'd say they're they're differentactually, I play around with this kind of stuff all the time and I have alittle bit of a tool that I've been using called the brand sandbox and Ifeel like the strategic narrative is upper level. Like you can have a strongstrategic narrative and the beliefs play into it. But let's let's look atlike chris walker since he has a pretty well fleshed out brand and most theaudience is familiar with him. Like he has a lot of beliefs that don't thatdon't include his origin story, right? His strategic narrative was like atleast his origin stories. I was an engineer and then I startedtroubleshooting things down the line into product and then I started talkingto the customers and realized I didn't want it. And then I started going tothe marketing and sales team and I'm like wait, why are we talking to allthese people who don't want the thing, right? Why is this process broke? Andthen he realized the legion essentially legion in the way we do marketingattribution was all broken and really we just needed to go out the sound kindof butchering as much now. But we need to go out and develop new demand gen bygetting our thought leadership in front of them by leading them and creatingdemand before they even are looking for it so that you can win the deal waybefore they actually need the thing right. His villain is certainly is likemarketing attribution and MQ Els but I think his positioning as a demand as aleader in dimension and his origin story or separate from the beliefs butthey informed the beliefs like in a position to me positioning is socritical to marketing that it's like it's not it's beyond marketing. It'sreally organizational strategy at that point, right? You have your likecompany strategy and then not long after its positioning. And I thinkpositioning so critical that it shouldn't be the marketing team thatdecides it has to be at the like c suite level. So you're saying it's likebeliefs which go even before the two things that you just mentioned, right?Because that's what builds into the branding. So it starts with you saidlike your beliefs as a company your core values and that's like thefoundation. That's what you say builds into brand because that's what youwould consider branding and getting it right? Yeah. I think beliefs once youhave your beliefs the things that you believe to be true that should impactyour messaging, your messaging, we'll probably incorporate some kind ofvillain. Maybe rituals is another thing that doesn't that's not super relatedto messaging. But all those things add up to what I call your icons andactually get a lot of this from a book called primal branding though. I'vemodified it but he calls it a creed and I'm like just beliefs are fine. LikeI've modified it a bit because I'm not 100% in line with his book but a lot ofthe ideas around like having a shared enemy or he calls it the anti believershaving rituals comes from that book. Kind of opened my eyes to like how doyou build a good brand? It's got to be more than a logo because lots ofcompanies have logos and don't have good brands. So what makes a goodmoment, right? It's kind of the stuff underneath. And that's where I go intolike the brand side of it because I think a lot of people and I thinkmarketers are coming around to it where they believe that the logo, you know inthe past has been this brand icon and that's why you buy. But the more youdig into it, like you don't buy a Mercedes because it has a cool logo,you buy a Mercedes because of the luxury feel and how you look to yourfriends etcetera. Right? So I guess if I were to look at it, I guess yourargument is branding leads to brand and the more that we kind of talked aboutit. Like if you have good branding, so your your message, your beliefs, thevillain that you're going after and...

...even the visual aspects eventuallyyou're going to build into a solid brand. Is that what you're saying? Yes.And I think you can actually do it without the logo on the websites. HenceI do 200% believe like the hence brands have existed for a long time. Like theoriginal one I'm thinking of I'm reading his biography right now isJosiah Wedgwood who is like the O. G. Marketer that no one has ever heard of.Usually he he was a potter and so he got mad one day when someone's like ohis this one of your pots? And he picked up a competitor's pot, he's like ohthis is a wedgewood pot and he's like what? How could you not tell thedifference without looking under the pot to find the name? He's like uhsomething's different. So he started differentiating all his products andreally started developing a much broader brand name or his wood style.He also did a lot of other things that kind of kicked off the age of modernmarketing but one of them was branding because he wanted his stuff to bedifferent and people would seek out his stuff. He's like no I want I don't wanta normal pot, I want a wedgewood pot but that was way before logos were athing. Way before websites were a thing and all the other visual identitypieces were a thing. So I have a question for you then let'ssay that we are saying we're gonna work on branding as a marketer right Wecan't as marketers go back to ground zero to identify the villain if wealready have it and if we already have the messaging that was put in place bythe founder or the board of the Ceo or whatever it is. So like wouldn't thatalmost make a third category for marketers, which is the visual aspectsthat they want to go work on to help create and identify here for the brandthat they're building and the reputation that they have. Heyeverybody Logan with sweet fish here. If you're a regular listener of GDPgrowth, you know that I'm one of the co hosts of the show but you may not knowthat. I also head up the sales team here at Sweet Fish. So for those of youin sales or sales ops, I wanted to take a second to share something that's madeus insanely more efficient lately. Our team has been using lead I. Q. For thepast few months. And what used to take us four hours gathering contact datanow takes us only one where 75% more efficient. We're able to move fasterwith outbound prospecting and organizing our campaigns is so mucheasier than before. I'd highly suggest you guys check out lead IQ as well. Youcan check them out at least I Q dot com. That's L E A D I Q dot com. Alright,let's get back to the show. I think if you want to like usually you're doingbranding work well I hardly ever do launch a company with all the brandingwork already done, it has to be done as you go, right because even the positionof the company, especially the company is changing every six months every dayor as often as six months if you're fast growing and you're accelerating,right? Things change fast, which means your brand is changing fast, right? Sohardly ever is a branding expert stepping into a company that's startingfrom ground zero. It's almost always got pieces in play. Some of the piecesare good, some of them are not and that's where you need to assess what'sgood. They might already have some of the things down, the messaging might bebland, but dang, they have this awesome ritual they go through, we're going tokeep that. People remember that. Or um like some of the things sweet fish isknown for is personal brands, right? If you're on linkedin, you bumped intosweet fish, you know, we're all about personal brands because we believe likethis reflects a belief about personal being better than personalized. That'sa sweet fish belief. But that's like, it's like, it's like a reflection ofthe belief. So that would be something I'd put in there. So you can actuallyalready assess it and be like what beliefs are already in play, whatmessaging is already in play. That's good and what's missing. Maybe we don'thave a villain, maybe the messaging sucks, but the beliefs are good when Ihear the founder talk and we just need... actually articulate them in bettermessaging because internally they're using this language, that's awesome andit's really stacked on good beliefs. We just haven't put it in marketing yet.You might be something farther down, farther downstream to like the positionyou might be broken even though they got a strong brand. No one can exactlyremember what they do, right? Everybody likes the brand, but nobody knowsexactly why to buy from them. So that could be, there could be problemsdownstream to like you don't have a good story for why that's somethingwe're wrestling with that sweet fish, right? We don't know why do we do whatwe do in a way that is not, hey, we want to earn more money because that'snever a good y right? So there's no need to get a larger story or and we'restill working even on the mission, like what are we trying to build a communityaround to achieve together? We have some ideas we're kicking around, butI'd say that stuff is all, I'm sorry, not downstream, continually evolving.So yeah, so I guess honestly one of the reasons that I was just like, I feellike we need just a visual representation of branding branding isbecause I see so many posts from bigger name, B, two B marketers that are like,here's what brand is, right? And of course they list reputation and Ididn't like strip copy what they said, but I had some ideas of my own rightAnd then they say it's not your logo on your website. So I sat to myself, I'mlike, well, what is your logo and website? And maybe it's really notbranding. Maybe it needs a category of its own, or like, it's a tip of aniceberg, like you mentioned of branding. But I think one of the reasons that Iwas like, we need to identify, like, what, since if if this isn't brand,then what is it? That was almost my thought process behind creating likethis graphic with a line down the middle and again, I mean, if it if itneeds another name, you know, I'm not always attached to Brandon, but itsounds like you're just expanding on what branding is more than the visualaspects. It goes deeper into the, like, the company origin story and it worksthis way back all the way from the image, all the way back to, that's whatyou're saying. Yeah, of course you can have a pretty strong brand to bemissing some critical elements, but the more elements are missing the harder itgets, which is why you have brands like Hyatt where you could literally just,or brands like, I don't know, Hyatt Skechers to some degree, you know, like,these brands are just kind of like, uh no one really resonates with Skechers.You know, maybe they saw it in the store, maybe I'm sure they're bigenough brand, that they probably have some followers. Hi, it's my favorite topick on that because I think everyone, no one, no one's like, I love HyattHotels, that's my thing. You're like, Most hotels are like that in particular,it's a huge, huge brand. No one really cares about them. So they've doneeverything right. They've hired very expensive agencies to come up withvisual identities, but we don't have any interest in. It only goes so far.Yeah. Yeah. The thing is the visual side really only goes so far and likeyou mentioned, and I actually agree with this is you could have the brandside and do well as a company and havemediocre to subpar. I'm what I would label branding, right? Uh, logo,website, colors, swag cool graphics because people will remember you forthe brand side more so than the visual aspects of your marketing, which as youcontinue to grow, of course you need to up that. Because if you think aboutMcdonald's coke, Apple, like of course the visual representation is there andyou do start to remember it. But when I think of sweet fish, I don't think ofthe logo or even your website. Like if I think about it, of course I canremember it, but immediately the thing I think about is wow from the start,James has created an an incredible culture with the employees. Like you uh,Logan and anyone else that's at sweet fish, right? And that's something Iimmediately remember about you guys and that's where I'm just like, I totallyagree where brand carries the weight way more than what I would labelbranding, which is the visual aspects. I think the thing we get stuck on islike, what is the work that you have to do in order to get the outcome ofhaving a strong brand? So sweet fish has a fairly strong brand. But what'sthe work that went into doing it? It's...

...almost like James did it on accident.Like he of course he did a lot of stuff, but like there's some things that hedoes just as a person habits that he has that could be a part of it thoughis simply they, James attracts the right people because of who he is andthat can be a brand in itself. For example, chris walker is a cool guy.I'm sure there are people that consumers content and say, I like chrisI want to work with chris and that could impact, like trickle down to thebrand and eventually like explode into something bigger if you're creatinglike the same culture that you're portraying through your, you know,personal profile or just life in general, right? And that's why in thebook, primal branding, he would say every strong, really strong brand as aleader, right? You think a virgin, you cannot think of their leader, youcannot think of richard Branson, right? You think I actually like, I'll tellyou, it's yeah, there's usually a leader associated with the strong brand.Not always though, because like you think of Southwest is a fairly strongbrand. There's no leader behind it. At least that I can think of spent timethinking about them. So I'm like, I don't know what their leaders, butthere are other aspects that impact the brand. Like what you said about Jamesis he almost did it on accident if that's the case, That's awesome. Butit's probably because of his integrity, his personality, him as a person, right?And then you get to Southwest, there's obviously some other things in thebrand category. Maybe it's a reputation, the experience how they treat theircustomers. That's like the thing that drives the brand forward more so thanlike the origin, not the origin story, but like the founder and thepersonality he has, like you guys like that sweet fish, right? I think it'seasier if you have a founder that has a lot has a strong personal brand orstrong beliefs and viewpoints that has like when he has a strong point of viewthat especially in a startup where it's all flowing from that founder, thenthat creates a strong brand really easily. Unless it grew it was so fastthat it outgrows the founder which has happened, right, You know, Tony hi shwith Zappos talked about it in his biography where he, his company grew sofast that they hired so quickly. He couldn't instill his personal valuesinto the company unlike Zappos where he took his time, but I still think youcan do it without, you just have to be more intentional and think about likewhat are the beliefs that we have as a leadership team or as an orig or what,what do we want to believe in? Like what can we believe that makes us weird?I actually think the word weird is key. Yeah, that's a good one. I I don't knowif anything comes to mind for what we do. I think, I don't know that we'rejust a good question where I'll actually have to think about it becausethat is a fun way to do it and really like what does make us different andsomewhat weird to others. That is interesting like that and I thinkthat's, we're thinking about like your anti believers and I don't think you'reanti believers are necessarily the people that buy into your competitor.But it could be if your competitor stands for a totally different way ofdoing things and then I wouldn't make the enemy, your your competitor. I makeit that way of that approach is the enemy right for chris walker. It'slegion in general, people who are big into legion and hubspot and tracking tothe N degree with analytics and data and driving lots of em Que els, thoseare the anti believers of which I find myself somewhere in the middle for hiscamp. I'm not like, it's not gospel to me. I'm like, I could still win withCeo. I'm like on the middle, but there's definitely man, there's a wholecrew that are like champion that message now and that those beliefs,it's like part of them. So I think thinking about what beliefs you havethat make you weird as in, there's going to be some people that thinkyou're really weird for it, but you and the other people that you are like, yes,no, this is the truth. This is the thing. Yeah, I agree. And I thinkthat's something that we're going...

...through right now is, I mean, I guessit would be positioning or narrative or whatever just coming up with like whatis it that you're against and what is it that you're known for? Because Ithink that's something that we've lacked. And it's like definitely ourfocus that were, you know, playing around with right now some ideas andbouncing around, but I'm gonna have to steal though. What makes us weird.That's gonna be something that we certainly think about. Yeah. Andhonestly you could probably look to your positioning for cues on that right?I don't know, it probably doesn't tell you everything. Like we're a B two Bpodcast agency, that sweet fish is positioning, but we all know that BBSusually kind of boring. I know it's in fashion right now to make B to be fun,but hardly anybody's doing it. Everybody's talking about what I wantto do, what you guys are all talking about it, but we haven't actually likedone it yet. You have very few companies are pushing the envelope onfun and B two B um sweet fish. So that's what we're trying to do istrying to bring that back. Hence our, our villain that we've been forming ascommodity content. I like it. I like it. So now I have to go and work somemessaging around it. And uh, I think James has been working on some stufflike bye bye boring content or something as a hashtag, he's been usingbye bye boring content. I think that's one of the things that would, thatwould be, that would be an extension of the belief that commodity contents badand then moved to language or messaging right? Which is going to be by, bycommodity by, by boring content. I think one of the best ways I've seenthis going on is I see some B two B brands tooling around with the world oflike tic tac or even instagram reels and I think that's just a fun way toconnect with your buyers and again, this goes back to like your brand. Likehow does, how does your brand make you, your, your buyers feel when they seeyou, right. And I've even seen this is funny because I wouldn't think of themas like a funny brand, But refined labs has a Tiktok now that they've gottenlike some videos on and it's like, I'm like pretty picky when it comes tocontent that makes me laugh. Like if it's stupid, I'm not gonna laugh, butthey actually had a couple of videos that I was like chuckling at. So, uh, Isee they're kind of doing the same thing. I think gong, I didn't see their,their page, I just started following the other day, but they have somevideos there. I think chili piper might be another one, but it's whatever we'veseen in B two C for the past X amount of years, give it two or three yearsand the same thing is gonna start happening in B two B. So it's, you canalmost get ahead of the curve, see what exactly what they're doing and howthey're interacting with their audience and their buyers And then justreplicate that in the B two B world and don't be afraid to do it. It'sinteresting. That's a whole, another conversation on what I'm seeing isdoing right now and I'm like, okay, so Tiktok is becoming a thing. But what'safter Tiktok and I've already have in my head what's next after Tiktok thatI'm like starting to invest in now. So we'll figure that out. But I don't knowthis, this Ma'am branding branding such a broad and fascinating topic to pickup what are some of the your favorite brands gone, refined labs. Uh Sweetfish definitely hits the list. I guess I'm going to be to be ones uh driftkind of like the early days to be honest. I like their narrative betterbefore than what it is now. I think it would be my top four as for like B. TwoC. Because we can get, you know, we can take some examples from this, I wouldsay. Uh the NFL and the MLB are pretty incredible brands. Apple, of coursecoke, Wendy's is one of my favorite. Just go read their twitter, It'shilarious burger king. So those are some examples of some brands that Ilike, interesting. I think all everybody listening to show is kind oflike nodding their head like, yep, yep, those are all brands. I'm proud thatsweet fish made it to the list. That makes me happy. Yeah, it's a culture. Ihonestly compared to some others, but yeah, yeah, it's definitely the culture,whenever I think about you guys, I just think about what a fun place to work,right? Everyone is excited to be there...

...excited to, to do their job and it'slike a family and that's how I consider it and it makes me like have anaffinity towards what you guys do because of that. So obviously doingsomething right? That's good, I will certainly be passing that off to Jamesand uh our director of culture because that's what he cares a lot about. Umbut of course that eliminates out through the brand and all the marketingwork too Well. Cool man! Sam. This has been an awesome conversation and Ithink this is gonna be a continuing dialogue and to be fun kicked off withthis this podcast episode. Is there any final thoughts you have for the guestor anything you'd like to share about what you're doing, what you're workingon before we sign off with this episode? You know, if you want to continue thedebate, I'm pretty active on linkedin Sand Moss. Just search it. I'm prettysure I'll come up. So send me a connection request, we will go at it inthe comment section if you, if you want to chat, I'm always responding to stuff.So that's probably the best way to find me that we have a podcast where it'scalled BBB Made Simple where we talk about similar things that we justtalked about today. So if you're, you're interested in that, be sure tocheck it out as well. But dan, I appreciate you having me And this hasbeen great, awesome. Thanks again for joining us. Danchev That's right.That's what my friends call me. So if you're a friend, call me Sanchez,That's always true. So again, thank you for joining me on the road. You gottathank you. Are you on linkedin? That's a stupid question. Of course you're onlinkedin here. Sweet fish. We've gone all in on the platform. Multiple peoplefrom our team are creating content there. Sometimes it's a funny gift forme and other times it's a micro video or a slide deck and sometimes it's justa regular old status update that shares Their unique point of view on B2Bmarketing leadership or their job function. We're posting this contentthrough their personal profile, not our company page and it would warm my heartand soul if you connected with each of our evangelists will be adding moredown the road. But for now you should connect with Bill Reed, R C 00. KelseyMontgomery, our creative director dan Sanchez, our director of audiencegrowth Logan Lyles, our director of partnerships and me, James Carberry.We're having a whole lot of fun on linked in pretty much every single dayand we'd love for you to be a part of it.

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