Why B2B Marketers Need to Stop Playing it Safe 

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

In this episode, we talk to Ryan Bonnici, CMO at Whereby

...mhm Hey everyone welcome back to be, to begrowth. I'm Olivia Hurley and today I am joined by Ryan Bonnici, who's theCMO at whereby, Ryan, how are you doing? Hey Olivia, I'm doing really well.Thanks. It's so nice to be here. A wonderful, well I'm so glad we get tochat a bit ago, You were a guest on B two B growth talking with randy, freshabout the sales process, I was like maybe last year or the year before andone of the things he says in that episode that still rings true to thisday is that you just have this fantastic resume and you've gotten tobe a part of these really, really cool companies. So you've had a lot ofvisibility into the success and some of the magic of their marketingdepartments and businesses as a whole because of that and why one of thereasons why you've been so successful is you have a lot of perspectivecontent strategy particularly and one of the observations you shared with melast time we talked is that B two B marketers feel pressure or maybe justin the habit of playing it pretty safe and staying corporate. But the evidenceis showing that that's not where success is found, it's the companieswho are edgy and bold that are winning and are winning much faster. So I wantto dig into all of that and really hear your thoughts on what makes asuccessful marketing strategy in this into the future. But before I do that,I want to kind of get everybody on the same page are their brands that youreally admire and think I've cracked the code on bold marketing and Contentstrategy. Yeah, there's not that many to that have cracked the code on bothof those things, I guess I would say um you know, I think I think on the BDCside of marketing there's a lot of creativity and I think a lot of BDCcompanies have cracked the code mostly just because I think the bar is a lothigher for creativity in terms of what's needed there, and also, you know,they're spending millions of dollars every quarter on huge ad campaignswhere there, You know, using the brains of all of these amazing agencycreatives, so it's not as it's not as common, I think that you would see aB2B company doing that. Um you know, I think if I think it just content alone,I mean some companies that I think have nailed it and also kind of maybestarted and it's like impossible to answer this question, I think withoutcalling out hubspot. Um and I think, you know what, I think really wantedcontent just because they were one of the first companies to really go all inon the content. Um And then I think for a long time they really kind of like, Idon't know, sat on their laurels to some degree, just because of the factthey had so much organic traffic from all of this old content, they were ableto not really innovate from a content marketing perspective, and it's only inthe last, I don't know, six months they've really started to innovateagain, so like that's a decade of not a...

...whole lot of innovation. Um And I don'tsay that like, to be mean or anything, I love the hubspot team and I'm reallygood friends with lots of them, but I think if they reflected on it as well,like they would also probably agree that they didn't innovate that much umin the last kind of, you know, 5 to 10 years and maybe that's just becausethey didn't need to write because they were already driving so much traffic.So, you know, why fix something that's not broken, but more recently rightwith their acquisition of the hustle, I think it was, and they're building outof their own podcast network. You can see they're starting to, you know, gointo other people's turf into content areas where previously they were just aproducer of one show and now they're producing many and acquiring shows. SoI think to me that's really interesting. It's maybe a little bit overdue as well,but, but really quite interesting. Um, you know, I think some companies thathave done an interesting fusion of the two, like exact target, which is whereI was a long time ago, I think we did a really good job at this and we were ina similar situation to hubspot in that we sold to marketers. And so whenyou're a market are selling to marketers, the bar is alreadyincredibly high. And in those companies that has to be even higher becausemarketers will call bullshit on about marketing, especially if you're notonly selling your marketing to market, but if you're a marketing a marketingtool to them, it's a little bit better. But the bar is really high and you know,I think exact target. We did. We did. I think I'd give us like a B plus oncontent but where I think we really excelled at exact target was on on thecreative front. So you know, we were selling differently to hubspot. We wereselling to B two C companies and we were selling multimillion dollar multiyear deals. And so it was very much about like a very targeted, accountablekind of marketing set of people that we were selling to was hubspot marketingkind of cells to all companies in the small medium space, exact target wasselling to you know the top 1000 of the world's largest companies. So when youkind of think about how the market is that those companies differ in terms ofwhere they look for. I think what we did really well was we started torealize really quickly in our research that marketers were going every year injuly to Cannes Lions, which is like a big advertising and creativity festivaldown in the south of France. And so you know we created I think it was called,I forget the name of it. It was like something beach. It might have beencalled Social Beach or E. T. Beach or X. Beach, I can't remember. And webasically created this like beach space at the festival. Um And you know weflew customers over there, we flew prospects to the south of France andgave them this incredible experience. We flew them on helicopters todifferent you know islands and really kind of like helped them see that wewanted to be the strategic partner with them. And we then, you know as you doin kind of enterprise B two B.

Marketing, it's really all aboutconnecting prospects and customers and happy customers together and kind ofhaving them sort of like share concerns and issues with each other and thenyour customers ultimately end up selling to these prospects. And sothat's what we didn't. You know, we closed tens of millions of dollars fromthose kinds of events. Um You know, I even took customers skydiving one timeat exact target in salesforce. Um So we did very creative things I think Iwould say there. Um and then more recently, I think a company that I'vebeen looking at that I think is doing a great job. Dave King, who's the CMO ofAsana and a good friend of mine has been doing really creative campaignsmore recently in the last maybe 18 months um where they put theircustomers in the ads. So the reason why I know of this campaign is, you know,I'm a big fan and a big customer of Asana and I have been at maybe the lastfive companies I've been at. And so, um the Asana team reached out and said,hey, we would love to feature you and your team in one of our ad campaigns.And so they brought us in one day with a bunch of other customers. I think wewere photographed with, you know, Nike and a few other huge brands. This iswhat I was getting to, the last company I was at. Um and then literally therewere photos of me and my team on billboards, on buses, like all aroundnew york Times Square san Francisco. Um and I think they did a great job ofhumanizing their brand and being creative and that's that's not thecraziest, boldest thing, but I thought it was like taking a risk puttingcustomers in their faces into our campaign. So yeah, there's a fewcompanies that I think there's some interesting things, you know, the lastthing I mentioned, sorry, I've been talking for ages is just I think one ofthe things that we did at G two that I was really proud of when we werelaunching our Best Software Companies Awards, which was, It's kind of like G2is equivalent of glassdoor's best places to work. So it's like the bestsoftware companies in the world. We basically did a guerilla campaign wherewe paid buses, we took truck, sorry it was like trucks and we wrap the truckswith like branding and said you know, Salesforce was voted number one ornumber two best suffer company in the world on G. Two dot com. And then wewould drive those buses around the city that the company was headquartered in.So we did that in san Francisco for Salesforce. We did that in I think itwas Ottawa Toronto for Shopify. We did that in a bunch of different hugecities around the world. Um and that generated a ton of buzz and press aswell because um you know obviously it was a little bit gorilla. Um And I whatI thought was really most interesting about that was that then Ceos thatother software companies that didn't make the top 10 in the list would thensend those photos to their CMO and say hey we need to win this next year, weneed to get more reviews on G. Two so that we have a better chance of this.Um And so it drove the right behaviors...

...that we wanted and drove more reviewson G. Two dot com, which was a big part of what we were looking for. So there'sa few kind of examples of things that I've seen and being really fortunate tobe a part of incredibly memorable experiences. Nobody's going to forgetskydiving. I think those three words that Olivia to me are like really whatmarketing is all about in so many ways. Like I think I think sometimes we get alittle bit too bogged down into like the data and the data driven ness of itall and the MQ. Ls and all of those things are important. You need to havethat and you need to have your house in order there. Um But I think this isespecially true and B. Two B. It's really about creating excitement andattention around your company, your brand, your product and then theproduct itself obviously has to be good right? Um Good marketing will not helpa bad product, it will only make a bad product fail faster. But I think likeexcitement and energy is something that not enough marketers do think aboutKnowing that incredibly memorable experiences is the end goal, drivingthe behavior in this case, getting more reviews on D. two. But something elsefor a different company are their ingredients that you need to create andexecute on a content strategy that will win and perform. Yeah I think there area bunch of ingredients and I think it really kind of depends on what the goalis of the content strategy or the campaign. Right? So if we kind of focuson content for a second, you know if your content strategy is gold or thegoal of it yet. And most I would say most companies probably should focus onthat. Just the rationale being that contentmarketing content takes a lot of time not only to produce but then to bepromoted to be distributed. And then ultimately to rank highly it takes it'sit's a long game it's not a short game content right? Like paid advertising isshort term content is much more long term. And so because of that I thinkyou know focusing on the long term organic traffic is key where somecompanies might focus more on like newsworthy content. Yeah. Where they'recreating content more relevant to like what is happening in the news right now.Um, and that can work, but it's really competitive in that space, right?Because you're competing with news organizations, who is the literal breadand butter is news. So I would say, look, it depends on the, the ultimategoal, but assuming it is long term organic traffic, which is, I think whatmost people would say, I think some of the most important ingredients reallyare, I mean the two that stand out to me the most probably really getting agood idea of the keywords. The key phrases, the content topics that youwant to rank for plus. Um, I want to write for them and there is demand forthose terms, right? I see so many content marketers create content aroundtopics where there isn't any demand for them because no one is searching forthat. Now, that's okay, again, going...

...back to kind of your goal, that's okayif you're trying to carve out a niche or carve out like a piece of the piethat you want to own exclusively, right? So I think, you know, drift did a goodjob at carving out conversational marketing as you know, sort of a like asubtopic within marketing and they obviously rank really highly for thosetopics. Similarly, hubspot really carved out a big niche around inboundmarketing. And when both of those companies started doing that, creatingthose pieces of content, there wouldn't have been demand. Right? And so I thinkit's important to understand like we want to create some content that thatwill satisfy and attract people based on what they are already looking for.And we want to create some content potentially based on a topic that wewant to own in the future. And we realize that it's going to take usquite a bit of time before we can own that. But we're just gonna keepcreating content, we're gonna keep into linking etcetera. So I think the keyword side of the house is incredibly important. And I think not enoughcontent marketers think about that. And I think that's just a byproduct of thefact that a lot of companies have just all have, have hired marketers andcontent marketers specifically that, you know, come from an editorialbackground. And so there are beautiful riders, but they're not really as kindof maybe experience in how to validate that the topics have enough demandbehind them. So that's a big part of it. I think maybe the other big piece ofthe puzzle is really around thinking of like, when you're doing, once you'vedecided on your keywords and your phrases and your topics and then you'redoing your research. Another kind of like, mistake I see people make or aningredient that they're not using to use your metaphor is that they justlike, do what everyone else is doing, right? So, like, let's say I'm writinga log post on like how to skateboard and just to set the example how toskateboard. You know, I might google how to skateboard, I might googleskateboarding if a curious etcetera. I look at the key words And then, youknow, a lot of editors and writers would then be like, Okay, thesearticles said, here are the 10 steps. And so I will write a similar blog post.Um and the problem I think with that is if you want your content to rank yourcontent needs to attract links, and the way you were tranq links is by havingcontent that's better than other people's content out there. Right? Soit's an easy way to get links, is to go and find a blog post that's similar toyours. It has links from other blogs and you would reach out to those otherblogs and say, hey, I noticed that you were linking to blogs X. Um, and I justthought you might like to check out our blog, because not only do we go throughthe same 10 things that that blog goes through, but we also have 20demonstration videos and we've got diagrams and then we've got a freecourse and then we've got, you know, you can listen to our blog post as welland there's an audio book as well and there's a podcast. And now and again,I'm being a bit dramatic with all of...

...those things, you don't need to do allof that. But my point is that it makes it really easy for that person to see.Wow, that's a really good point. Like, the blog that I was linking to actuallyisn't as good now as this other blog, and I want my readers to be able tolearn this as quickly as possible, so I will change my link. And so, you know,I think some people refer to this as like 10 X content. Some people go tothis is like the skyscraper technique, it's basically the idea is that you'rebuilding upon and making your content better than everyone else is. And Ithink what what is an inevitable reality with that is that as everyonemakes their content better as a content marketer, you need to constantly begoing back to your content and improving it and looking at therankings and seeing if I've dropped a bit, why is that? Has someone createdcontent that's better than mine? And how can I better my own content? Sothere's just a few of the ingredients I think, and they're probably the mostimportant ingredients in my mind. Really like creating a really robuststrategy around what it is that we want to write about. And is there demand forthose topics from the right people? I love your point about using otherpeople's content to improve your own, essentially because it takes a lot ofthe fogginess and and like vortex itchiness out of how do I end up at thetop? And this idea of building process for like that when I'm doing it is likeI will again, I'll do my keyword research and as I'm doing my keywordresearch and as I am reading relevant blog posts, et cetera, that are rankingfor these times, I'm basically building up a master skeleton is kind of how Ithink of it or a master um table of contents essentially. And so you know,so I'm looking at all of these other articles, all of the differentcomponents they've added. If I like the component, if I think it's valuable,I'll add it into my skeleton. So I'm cheating essentially in terms of likeusing all of their research to help me build mine and they've done the sameright to build their own. And then, and then at that point in time that's kindof when I stopped like reading everyone else's content and then I start to fillin my skeleton and flesh it out with my own content, write my own take oneverything. My own examples, my own diagrams, my own videos and um, andthat's, I think the art of it, right? It's like being able to kind of steelat the beginning and steal the structure and combine everyone'sstructure to make yours the biggest and the best service. Um, and then youdon't want to come. Then it's about like actually not copying the contentand actually creating even better content than theirs is and thinkingabout it more thoughtfully. And then I think what inevitably sometimes happensin these instances is that then it becomes, you know, this massive pieceof content. And so you need to make sure you then have like magnet links orsticky links in your articles that people can easily navigate and jumparound in that one article. Um, and I think, you know, another protest wouldbe to create those sticky links that then people can copy and paste. Soinstead of someone sharing the link to...

...the full article, they can share a linkto the article slash sticky wink that then takes them to that specific partof the page. So yeah, they're just a few of the thoughts. Well, I love that.I mean this is the title of a book, but I think it's also the just kind of acolloquial expression of like steal like an artist. You are. Iterating onwhat other people are doing, taking inspiration and then making a versionthat's better. And I think that's not only how we just continue to movetowards the future, but also it gives you short term wins in this long termgame. Yeah, Ryan. Was there an impetus for changing the way you did contentmarketing in the B two B space where you started noticing that B two Ccompanies were doing things that you wanted to emulate? I think that's just,you know, ever since I was young, I've kind of always struggled with doingthings like everyone else. Um It's just kind of built into my DNA a little bitthat I'm a little bit different. I like to do things differently. I have my owntake on things, so I don't know, I think part of it is maybe just thatlike built into my own personality. Um and I but I think another part of ittoo is that I just hear this term best practice over used all the time and youknow, if everyone is doing and it's not really a best practice, it's actuallyjust like the bare minimum. And so I think for me, you know, the longer I'veworked in marketing the more I've realized that like, so many things arethe same as they've always been and everyone's just doing the same stuff,and, and I think that plus the fact that, you know, today, our attentionspans, so not that our attention spans are shortening, but the amount ofthings that are vying for our attention has grown exponentially. And so if youwant to get a slice of your buyers um of your buyers attention, ultimatelyyou need to deliver something that's competitive with all of the othercontent that they're seeing. And a lot of the content out there is reallycompetitive. And I think that's why a lot of BdB brands really struggle tomake social media work for them because you're competing with content from BDCbrands that is just innately much more engaging and much more interesting. Soyeah, I think it was more just the impetus really for me came from justseeing that a lot of the channels that BBB companies were using weredecreasing ineffectiveness. Um, and then I also maybe you think the lastpieces just selfishly, like I like to do fun stuff like who wants to do thesame thing that everyone else is doing. And so I think that's probably a bigpart of it for me, as I like to challenge myself, I'd like to challengemy team. I like to push boundaries on many levels. Um, and I like to push theboundaries around, you know, what we do as a company. So yeah, yeah, tom whichbrings us back to this idea of creating really memorable, noteworthyexperiences, um, that cut through the...

...noise of the general population, butalso are, you know, firmly plant your company in the minds of your buyers.How has this strategy determined the course for your team at whereby? Yes,four weeks innit? Whereby? And I said to my team, and I want us to dosomething creative bold, I want to get some attention and I want to do good aswell for our audience. And so, you know, we kind of put our heads together andthen we decided that, you know, something that we really cared about asa company was the planet and the environment. And so we basicallypledged. And I think this was in february of this year. We pledged toplant a million trees. Um, and we basically planted a tree for everyevery other meeting that people had on more and be their God created counterinside the product. So every time you had a meeting, If we, you know, planteda tree for you from that meeting, you would see your account and go 1234 andit would increase and over time people at companies started to compete witheach other and just see how many trees they planted versus their peers. Um Andso to me that was something that generated a lot of bars online um onsocial for the month, like the amount of mentions we were getting every hourevery day, it was wild because you know, millions of meetings happen on wherebyevery every hour every day. Um And at the end of the meeting there was a C. T.A. That basically said something to the effect of like we just planted anothertree for you now you have planted 20 trees in the last two weeks or 40 treesor 100 trees. Um And so people then we're proud of that there was a CTSsaying like share how you're helping plant trees and encourage other peopleto use whereby as well. Um And so we generated so much buzz out of that andthe whole campaign I think the whole Campaign including all the trees likeplanting them and everything costs you know under $100,000 because you knowwhen you're planting trees you're planting seedlings ultimately rightthat will then grow into trees over time. So it's not as expensive aspeople think right? And you know the ceo to impact in thelong term is massive. So um sorry the reduction in Co two is is massive. Soum you know that was just something it happened really quickly I guess. Um Andsomething that we did a whereby you know we we launched a few months agoour first kind of T. V. C. And campaign which was completely the polar oppositeof everyone else's. You know if you think a zoom teams google meets all oftheir ads are very feature oriented. It's like someone sitting at home onthe computer using the features of those products and it's all aboutcompeting on a feature level and you know when you're competing on featuresyou can't really differentiate all that...

...much. Um You know, so we focused moreon the experience and the way you feel when you're in a good meeting versusbad meeting created this really comedic and fun ad campaign um Called Wet. It'scalled web better meetings happen and it was like this nightmare well thatyou know our lead character was in and then they are then found like in thisdreamlike world at the end once they find where behind that was really, itwas really fun to build that. I was very different. But I think at the endof the day, it really comes down to just setting the bar is a leadershipteam of your company around, like what good looks like, and then, and then,you know, as people come back to with ideas, like giving them feedback tillthey can keep adjusting and collaborating, I'm absolutely florida,I think that's so awesome. And it gets right to the heart of people becauseit's marketing that matters. And I think, I think sometimes we candiscount marketing advertising at something that doesn't necessarilyalways ultimately lead to helping people or view the planet, you know,those things that are so fundamental to date interaction. So hearing somethinglike that, I'm just like, you know, just kind of floored by that and thenhearing the actual specks of how that campaign played out and ran down. Ilove it. I think that that's something that's so that where does that, wheredoes that creativity happen in? You know, is it entirely in your head? Isit a collaborative experience? Obviously mentioning that that campaignwas a collaborative work. But how do you kind of reference something youwere saying? How do you plant ideas in your team's head? How do you bringideas to your team? I consider myself one of the world's most um sluttyconsumers in that. Like I am just consuming so much content. It'sembarrassing, right? So like I am, you know, I'm a digital native, I amconsuming billboards and consuming ticktock ads and consuming twitterconversations. And so I think if you are a consumer on the channels that youwant to market to or you will market to inevitably good content just rises tothe top. And I think the big difference that I kind of Mhm. The big difference that I have maybemade, or the kind of action I take is that I very diligently copy all of thecontent that I see, and what I mean by copy, that's not really the right word,is all tag it basically. So I might take a screenshot of it, or I mightsave it as a bookmark, we'll save it to pocket, and then I categorize it inlike a folder where I have, like, great billboards, great blog posts, greatlinked in post. And what that does is it kind of then helps me have a bit of,like, a sweat file of things that have caught my attention and caught otherpeople's attentions, and then I'll use...

...that as sort of inspiration and thenI'll often share that content them with my team, so so they can kind of because,you know, I think, I think until you get maybe, I don't think anyone can dothis, but you know, I think earlier on in my career, I probably didn't have asmuch time to kind of, you know, save all the things that I saw and take aphoto of it if you're in a hurry and I really encourage folks on my team. Um,and just anyone listening to this to do that, because that's the only way toget better. And then when I see stuff that I like, I'll send it to anotherCMO just for inspiration, or I'll send it to my team for inspiration and then,you know, if I'm sending it to another CMO or, or appear and then in my, youknow, network, that's a value add to them, something that they might findinterest in, and then, you know, they might reciprocate and do the same to me.and then, you know, when I shared that with my team, I'm kind of showing themwhat I'm thinking about and I think the best way to kind of dr creativity inyour team um and to drive any positive outcome really is to have really goodopen communication between everyone on the team. So we then just areconstantly sharing what we see with each other, so they're like, I wouldsay probably one or two really big part, I think the other piece of it is justhiring great people, you know, hiring people that are innately creative, youknow, you can teach anyone creativity but it's a lot easier if you just highI really will have this built into them, you know, I think I think for me forexample this is just built into I am I don't have to try. Yeah, well I lovethat the theme kind of arising here is that you you're like the one of theworld's great copiers and I mean that in the most complimentary way in termsof yeah, I really am, I don't do that as anything but a compliment, so thankyou. I think um you know, I like to work smart, not hard and smart, plushard is really the biggest winning combination. Um So Yeah, I think somany of us don't work very smart. Um and I think this all the time, you know,when you'll see people, you know, whether it's they're building a productor building a marketing campaign and they try and build something fromscratch because they've got an idea and I try and root all of my ideas as abuild upon on someone else's idea. And the reason why I do that is becausethat kind of guarantees or I guess a layer of confidence that it willsucceed. So for example, um you know when we launched the best softwarecompanies campaign at G2, that was let's use the word inspired, that wasinspired like I said bye by Glassdoor's best places to work. And so the landingpage was inspired by their landing page and our social media posts wereinspired by this and the content we sent out to companies to help thempromote. It was inspired by them and so essentially we were, you know,leveraging their playbook because they had spent I think by the time welaunched they've been doing it for like...

...five or eight years. So you know, itwas a it was a really kind of well oiled machine. And what's even moreinteresting is that if I'll share one other point which kind of relates tolike the importance of link building and content strategy is when I joined G.Two, they have been doing this best software companies campaign for I thinkmaybe two or three years. Um But it just never really worked that well forthem. It never got much bars, it never drive any organic traffic. Um And oneof the things I identified really quickly was the way they were doing, itwas just purely through like their blog CMS. So basically they would launchtheir awards. It would be, you know, a blog post that would have all thecompanies their numbers. Um And and then over time, you know, as the wayblogs typically work, content goes deeper and deeper down. You're kind oflike site hierarchy. And then the next year they would then publish a new blogpost with a different you are elf. Um And then over multiple years you've gotmultiple pages now that are competing with each other or cannibalizing eachother around the same keywords. And so really quickly what I did was wecombined all of their old blog posts into. We essentially migrated all thecontent from the old blog posts through a new micro side. We redirected the oldblog post to the new Microsoft as well. And the new Microsoft was I think G twodot com forward slash best software companies or just forward slash best Ithink is even a vanity U. R. L. For it. And then what we found was in everyyear that we we launched the campaign, not only would we generate more traffic,but it would kind of, it would exponentially boost our organicrankings because when we would relaunch the page and then re promote it, googlewould see that, wow, this page has been around for years and years and years,it has so many already existing links to it now, it's getting all of this newsocial engagement, social sharing, social traffic and link back from allthese big companies. Um and then, you know, so if you search today, I thinkI'm just gonna try it right now, Best software company is um yeah, we come upis like the number one um U R L. For that sort of the number one rank. Andso I think that's because again, the way they were doing it, they took alittle bit of inspiration from Glassdoor, but they didn't followthrough and copy the structure with the micro site and that was where I changedthat. And so yeah, I think to answer your question that's really all aboutkind of like taking inspiration and not being, not having too much pride thatyou can't copy something that works and then add your own flavor to it. Andwhat's so interesting is that on the marketing side and the internal side itworks and you are driving the behavior that you need from your customers andthen on the customer side there also you're teaching them how to engage withyou based on something that they're already familiar with. So with peopleare familiar with glass door and so if it looks and feels and so G. Two sversion of that looks and feels and plays similarly, people are going toknow how to engage. Exactly. And I...

...think that's the same with your otherpoint is just like teaching stealing like an artist as we're kind of sayingis it's familiar that people know how to, they're not learning a brand new, abrand new way of interacting with a company. You're just, they're justtaking all of their favorite ways to do that. I think the one thing that I'mnoticing in the BDC and I think this is coming into B2B is that consumersexpect instantaneous gratification, they expect touchless, they expect fast,you know, And uh and I think, you know, if you think of like how fast, you know,we've we've gotten so used to this world of amazon one click next day,same day delivery and I think B two B buyers expect similar. And what I meanby that is today, they expect for a for a really big portion of the market.They expect to be able to start using your product for free, they expect tobe able to, you know, upgrade from a free plan to a paid plan, they expectto be able to downgrade if they don't get any value out of it. And so I thinkexpectations are changing more around, it's gonna say user experience, that'snot really the right word. It's kind of like the buying experience really,right? Like it's become so much more innovative in the BBC world, right?Like when you think of like glasses for example, right? If you buy from WarbyParker likes and five glasses out to you try them at your home, you sendback the ones that you don't, then you get built like, you know, BtC companieshave realized if they want a share of your wallet or share of your creditcard, they need to by and they need to help you buy in the most convenient way.And I don't think B to B companies are we there yet, but for those that arethere yet, and that's a growing group of them um just, you know, raking inthe money because they're selling to the way the buyers will not be solvedtoo. So I would say probably that's one of the biggest kind of expectations.And shift that I think B to B companies need to meet them in and then to kindof point around creativity and boldness. I think to me like the creativity, theboldness, the marketing, that's about getting the attention, that's aboutgetting people to look at you and to consider what it is you have to givethem and then it becomes, you know, the buying experience or go to market orthe sales process in terms of, you know, do people follow through, Right? So ifyou have a really bold, exciting, innovative, innovative ad campaign andthen they get to your website and they have to fill out 20 questions on asurvey to then receive an automated email that says you know, a sales repwill be in touch with you in seven days. It's like those experiences are verydisjointed and um that's where problems I think will arise. And again, I kindof mentioned that earlier, Right? You no good marketing, bold marketing,creative marketing will only make a bad...

...product fail faster. And the same istrue of a bad sales process. So if you don't make it easy for people to buyfrom you, you will be leaving a lot of money on the table, right? If there wasonly one thing that somebody could take from this episode, if there's one thingthey are like please just do this, what would it be? You know, selfishly I'mgoing to say because I love talking to people about this stuff. I think ifthere's one thing that anyone listens to this wants to do, I would reach outto me connect, I love connecting with other marketers, I love to sharelearnings with them and I love to learn from others so if there's only onething that you do from here, you know, check me out on any of the socialplatforms, my username is just at Ryan Benicio Yeah, let's talk more becausethe reality is there's not just one thing that you should do, but if youcan connect with me, follow me then we can talk about all the things thatshould be done. Oh, I love it, Ryan, you're brilliant,thank you so much for joining me on BTV growth. I feel the same about youOlivia, thanks so much for having me is the decision maker for your productor service at BBB marketer, are you looking to reach those buyers throughthe medium of podcasting? Considered becoming a co host of GDP growth. Thisshow is consistently ranked as a top 100 podcast in the marketing categoryof apple podcasts, And the show gets more than 130,000 downloads each month.We've already done the work of building the audience so you can focus ondelivering incredible content to our listeners if you're interested, emailLogan at Sweet Fish Media dot com.

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