B2B Growth: Your Daily B2B Marketing Podcast
B2B Growth: Your Daily B2B Marketing Podcast

Episode 1752 · 3 months ago

It's Time for a New Marketing Scorecard, with Myles Madden

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

In this episode, Benji talks to Myles Madden, the Sr. Demand Generation Manager at Observe.AI

Discussed in this episode:

  1. The power of holding marketing accountable to revenue numbers.
  2. Tips for implementing new measuring metrics
  3. How marketing can impress and delight the C-suite and sales team

Conversations from the front lines of marketing. This is B two B growth. Welcome into B two B growth. Everybody excited to have miles madden with me today. He's the senior demand generation manager at observe AI. Miles, welcome into B two B growth. Happy to be here. Pungi appreciate your bringing me on. It's gonna be a good conversation. I know we've been doing some work here at sweet fish on just how we think and how we measure our marketing efforts and and then running some social ads and all that sort of thing, and so that's put us in contact with miles. Miles. Before we jump into like conversation around measurement, just give me like your background for a second. Are you analytical numbers guy just like that's your nature, or how did this become one of those core focuses for you? Yeah, that's a great question. I'm definitely data informed. I know a lot of times we hear data driven, but there's definitely plenty of times where we're making decisions on inaccurate data. So I like to say I'm data informed rather than strictly by the by the numbers. But another thing to add there, although I'm data informed. When I said data, I mean both quantitative and qualitative data. I look at both pieces of data equally. Um, I know there's a ton of system the quantitative part, but I think it's really important to look at both those pieces. But to answer your question, I'm definitely analytical, but in the common sense of analytical. I look at the qualitative and quantitative aspects. Yeah, I mean, I'm sure you just have seen that overtime. Like it's so important to hold both because otherwise, like, data can be very misleading and if you get set up on the wrong path because you're just looking at the numbers like, there's there's all sorts of potential for wrong terms, even though the data mightbe you say that it's driving you right. Yeah, absolutely, that's well sad. And Yeah, one point on that. There's there's kind of two common issues I see with with many companies. Number one, like I said, data inaccuracy. It's looking at data that's just not filtered properly or it's just not right. I mean, I don't need to explain that any more detail. And the other common issue I see within many companies is they're just looking at the wrong data, the wrong metrics and you can be data driven, but if you're looking at the wrong metrics, you may not drive the company forward because you're making decisions on metrics that won't drive you forward. Talk to me about that a little bit more, like how have you seen companies get that wrong? What are the metrics that maybe CEO S C suite holds up that you're like okay, well, now we're driving in the wrong direction. What are some of those maybe red flags for you that you're you've noticed? Yeah, yeah, we're definitely gonna get it into this more. When we discussed the marketing measurement framework that I follow, but a lot of times there's there's a few things that I see...

...and I'll talk to this in light of communicating with executive and other departments. Number One, I'm sure most of us have heard this, but marketing is typically scored on M quels or leads. Number one, leads usually defined as a contact in a database by many companies. Unfortunately, when a tru lead is someone with intent, not just an email address in the first and last name. But that's one one area, and then they'll add some criteria to that lead and call it M Quel, which is typically some sort of promographic fit, maybe company size or revenue bands, maybe a job title, anything like that. But what's interesting a lot of companies are marketing teams are gauging their success in those two metrics, leads around Quels, and if you look at the down final progression or the conversion rates of M Quel to an opportunity or customer, it's less than one percent, and so it's not efficient. It's not a great representation of business growth. That's typically when you hear sales teams saying marketing sending jump leads, because they're sending them five thousand contexts in a database, not people that actually have intent to purchase the product. That's one area that I see a lot of marketing teams making wrong decisions on. It's just mque all volume and lead volume and then uh, and that's how marketing is, that's how their success is defined by some leadership. And then I know you've got a question. I'll touch on one more. A lot of times marketing teams will bring what I conserve Andy Metrics. So website traffic metrics don't look at CTRS for paid social campaigns or just strictly conversions from paid switch campaigns. And this means nothing at leadership level, right, like a CEO could care less about how many impressions you had or the quick the rate of add so those are some common metrics I see that marketing is scored on or their successes seamed from that. I think are just tearful metrics and be candidatebut it too optimize your marketing and grow business from. I think it's interesting because, like, if you zoom out a little bit from both of those issues that you just highlighted, it comes back to like clear defined goals and communication and whether it's the way that marketing speaks the rest of the organization, like Hey, we're we're going to prove our value by just having an abundance of M Qs, like look at all of these emails we got, look at these lists we have, and then you get like such a low conversion rate that it's like okay, cool, you hit your number. But we never, and this is where the communication lack of focus comes in, like we never really established internally like what a qualified lead is. We never had the good back and forth that got us to a point where we agreed. And then marketing has looked at like sure, they generated a ton of leads, but I mean I won't use the language I want to use about what those the quality of those leads a like. So that's that's that side. And then, like, I just think it's communication from both aspects. Like if once you've clearly define mind what a qualified lead is, and then you...

...clearly qualified metrics, because there are campaigns where even some vanity metrics. If you educate up as a marketer and you tell the C suite why those metrics matter for just this campaign, this thing we're doing, you have an opportunity as a marketing leader to show that there are times for things like that, that actually it can drive brand right. But your CEO is not naturally going to be in brand world. They're probably living in demand world and you better have good campaigns on that side before you're just looking at impressions. So I think communication really stands out to me with both of those those issues. Am I onto something there? Orgy like? Where would you wrestle with that? Yeah, I th your your spot on with that, and that's Um, a lot of those sales teams are scarred by marketing teams. I think marketing is always consistently under delivered. I shouldn't say always, that's a pretty aggressive comment, but marking has consistently undelivered. The metrics up in poor and so if I put myself in the shoes of a sales team, I would be upset with marketing and I wouldn't trust marketing and I would think that I need to go create business myself. And so when I put my perspective in terms of sales, I completely agree why number one, communication is really important. But why? They may even be resistant to communication even now, and that's why this this is one of the main topics of our conversation today. But that's why I think it's really important that we tear down the current marketing measurement framework and implement something new, because if we continue to say hey, with the M quels, we're we're going to add this different criteria to it, the past twenty years salespeople, I should say probably fifteen now, but the past fifteen years sales teams, have been hearing that we're going to change the criteria and m quels and the equality is going to be better. Fast forward six months. Qualities not not better. Marketing is hitting its goal of sales is not, and we still have that that the states in the terms of sales team smells. So I agree with your communication is exceptionally important, but marketing is almost like a little kid that lives and sales just over it. Like. So, yeah, the clear metrics defined by sales and marketing having some overlap and how those things work. Like I'm glad that that's becoming such a focal point in conversations that were even featuring on B two B growth because, yeah, like it's been a long time coming and I'm that's why I love this work and that's why I'm glad that we're gonna talk about a new form of scorecards. So let's go there when we want to advocate for a scorecard that that appropriately gets all of us on the same page. How how have you seen, like, let's first paint a picture of not not in the nitty gritty of like this is what's on the scorecard, but when that's functioning at its best, how have you seen that transform a team? And when people adopt this model, what can they expect long term? Yeah, short term, short term, it's painful. Obviously Change Management and there's disruption...

...to that, but long term, simply, but I just see businesses grow much, much more effectively and efficiently, which is great for motivation. This new measurement framework is great for marketing creativity. So no longer do we have the entire marketing department trying to figure out how to some how to have someone fill out of form, but actually communicating to the market and educating on the market in a way that they want to be educated, and this is a very important part, in a creative way. A lot of times when teams, currently marketing teams, are trying to drive form fills, there's only so you can only get so creative with that and your main priority is to get someone fill out of field rather than educate a message and creativity severely impacted. So anyways, I address. It's great for rail and motivation and you're actually aligned on growing a company rather than trying to prove the ry of your department or the rule of your department. So long term, yeah, I just paying a very pretty picture, but it's it's what I've experienced. It's much better than what's been happening. Yeah, because you and you alluded to this. Like it's not going to be an overnight change. I think the last question before we get into what you're actually measuring is are you advocating to start with, like one to two measurements that were about to outline? What's the implementation process like for this, so people can have that in their minds before we go? Here's what you should start measuring. Here's an abundance of things that miles was telling us to do. Like I don't want to scare anyone away by saying you need to throw out your old score card and now you're doing this brand new thing. So what is the implementation process like, miles? First I would would keep your current dashboards and your marketing measurement framework. So don't just trash it and and move to this through marketing measurement model, because there's going to be some pushback, especially in the short term. So keep your current marketing measure model. The traditional model is the it's m q l, s q l, s Qos. Some marketing teams look at marketing source tref no, don't see very money, but keep that. And then the measurement framework I'm I'm about through outline create that dashboard, and so that's that's my first piece of advice. At both dashboards running simultaneously and actually let's stop there. Let's get into this marketing measurement framework. It will make more sense the point number two I was going to bring up. So let's just jump in through it. I like that you're saying, though, start with measuring them side by side. I think that that's an important way to do it. We're not trashing something old. And then also that helps when we're talking about educating up in the organization or other people that you're accountable to something. You just hey, here's what we've been doing, here's something else we're trying like, and then you can show the traction you're getting in the new system instead of, I think we're just so guilty of like all or nothing. or I'll just speak for me, like I that's a natural tendency in my brain that I have to combat. So, okay, we're here. We're ready for you to break it down. Tell us what you're advocating for, what we should be measuring. Absolutely and one quick side note. Um. This kind of ties into something that I called a twenty rule. Everything that I do is eight typical work what I do, but I leave of...

...my work to experimentation, and that rule applies to something like this. This is an experiment. It's an experiment of a new measurement framework. So keep of your efforts on your current measurement framework and then this would be that of experimentation. So yeah, let's get into this measurement framework. So there's a outline the marketing KPI s, and then it's kind of a a tiered system. So I'll go through the metrics and then the cadence at which you should actually review these metrics and when you should be pulling away insights and when you should be making decisions. So starting with the first here. Like I said, there's three tiers here. The first here are the marketing KPIS, and so how I de Marketing Success is marketings. First Revenue, and that is business that comes through the website. It's marketing source. Number two is customer acquisition costs. A lot of teams will only report and advertising. CACK advertising customer acquisition costs. I prefer to take a look at marketing cack, but that includes his marketing tech and head count and then obviously your your advertising costs. Reason, and I won't to go into this and too much depth, but the reason I like marketing over ad cack is that working does control? It's obviously it's tech spend and obviously the head count spend. Keep your headcount spend where it's at, but I think a lot of marketing teams can trim their tex stack. Yeah, I think we spend way too much tech, but that's a conversation for another time. But adding that market in cack will make you realize that the customer acquisition cost is so high, maybe not necessarily because the advertising costs, maybe because we have so much stinking tech in here that we don't need. That's metric number two. And then metric number three is pipeline velocity, and this is essentially how quickly revenue is moving through a pipeline. That's that's that first here market, source of revenue, market in CAC and pipeline phlosity. That's they're going to want to monitor at the monthly level, but look at the quarterly level. So I'm I'm every day I'm looking at my dashboards, so I'm seeing what the revenue coming in is and and I see those numbers, but I'm not overreacting or be becoming emotional to those numbers or critical of those numbers, and so I'm actually looking at the quarterly level, especially when you're looking at a product that has a relatively longer sales cycle. So before I go into my second and third tier, I'll stop. I'm sure there may be some questions. If not, well, I think I think it's good because you're unifying from that that base tier, like here's the core things we're looking at. I like the monthly cadence because otherwise you could be in chaos around Oh, we need to try or tweak or change this thing, when you don't actually have sustained period of time to know what's working and what's not. So I think with that first year I would assume, and maybe this is a bad assumption miles. You can tell...

...me if it's if I'm wrong, but do you get a lot of push back with any of those metrics? Because like to me those that's like the baseline of good marketing conversation. It's gonna be really hard. That's that's the amazing thing. I'm typically not met with pushback, but I'm met with excited curiosity. Marketing historically has not focused on true business impact. It's simulated business impact on culls and leads, but actually saying I'm accountable for revenue. I'm accountable for the costs that which we acquire customers and the scalability of the programs that I'm running. Yeah, never getting pushed back is there's there's that excitement around. Okay, marketing actually wants to be accountable for something that has a direct, positive or negative impact on the business. And then that created that curiosity. Okay, how are you actually going to do this? How will you measure it? And the questions that are typically some from that. My main kind of question would be, like to implement this? What like you're talking about even like tech stack, like trimming that, but like are there key tools that you're using that you feel like are absolutely necessary for tracking some of this, or can you do this all, like breaking it down in a spreadsheet, like what's the one point? Oh, version of this, miles actually tracking? Yeah, you can do a spreadsheet, but I have the advise, regardless of the size of your business, to get either hubspot if you're a smaller business, or salesforce to want that crum so you can actually manage and organize the contacts and really helpful for the sales team to keep up to date with they should be in communication with just aligning all of us on the stage of context and how much revenue is being generated and pipeline velocity as well. Lot's great. Yeah, exactly. So, at the very least I suggest the crm. But there are certain things like advertising customer acquisition costs or marketing customer acquisition costs and pipeline lost. See, those you're not going to be able to create in the crm. So those you pull out and calculate those in a spreadsheet and build your grass either in whatever, whatever you use cruel sheets or Mael. Right on. All right, yeah, keep taking us through this. Go. Let's go up a tire. Alrighty. So next we're going to the second tier and there's two buckets in the second tier. Simply put, the second tier is the early indicator two business results, that revenue in those customer acquisition costs and pipeline velocity. And so the first bucket or quantitative metrics. In the second bucket or qualitative metrics. So on the quantitative side we have a metric called hero, which I'll talk about that in a second, and the cost per hero and then we have demo volume and then, depending on if you have a plg motion, you can have your fruit trials in there now, hero. This is the really important one, and sales teams love this. This is a high intendent revenue opportunity. This was created by refined labs, so I cannot take this,...

...uh, this new metric that was created by them. Essentially, all this is is an opportunity that closes at a rate of or more to a customer and at whatever stage there at. So some companies at Stage three, some companies that stage two, and it's trailing six months. So it is a moving target. Let's say you're closing opportunities to a customer at Stage three and then your your context become more qualified earlier in the process and that moves to stage two. That's when you then align on Stage two, because that's winning at now. I said, sales teams love this, and it's particularly because we're aligning on a metric that says, Hey, guys, you will win one out of every four opportunities. Sales teams love that. I give you four people and guaranteed you you to close one, and marketings needs are shaking if they've never heard this before, and it's that's the thing. It's it's definitely a hard metric to hit. That's what makes successful marketers and that's what grows companies. The sales teams love it because no longer are we sending them trash leads and marketing teams are again accountable for Revenue Um. And then under that there's obviously demo volume, which is typically the conversion point that will source most of your opportunities or, if you have a P L G motion, those free trials. so that's on the quantitative side and we'll also want to look at the cost for those metrics because that will give you an idea of your customer acquisition costs will increase your decrease earlier on. So then we look at the qualitative side and there's essentially two things I do on the qualitative metrics. There's sales feedback, and so I'm actually going to sales and asking them about contacts and opportunities the quality of them. I'm doing my my own, uh, primary market research, so going and talking to buyers in the market. But the other important metric is self, for word attribution, and this is another tactic that was led by refined labs or created by refined labs, and this metric is an open text required field on your high intendent conversion points on your website. Typically that that demo, scheduled demo form, and that's what creates the demand. That's where people I actually type in what built their affinity with your brand, what made them aware of your product or solution, and so now you can understand what created the demand through that self report attribution, and then you also know what captured the demand or what channel being direct or paid search or organic search. So those are the two buckets. Quantitative hero and the cost for hero, Demo volume or free trial volume, and then qualitative primary market research, research with sales team and that self report attribution. When I look at hero in self reported attributions sort of on like two sides of the scale, I think those things like are so necessary in tandem...

...and I love that it's just an open fields. We've been doing that a lot longer since Chris Walker started first advocating that for who knows how long ago that was. At this point I know we've been doing it for well over a year, but I think of all the arguments that happened internally in orders around attribution and and figuring that out while at the same time they're not measuring their marketing teams by high intent revenue opportunities like there's you've got to partner those things in tandem, and so I can like, hopefully you're all y'all are connecting the dots as you're listening to this as to how those things happen in tandem. And this is my follow up question on self reported attribution. For you, miles, like if you've created some complex system. I know there's people listening right now that exists in some complex attribution system. They have attribution software, there are like deep in it and then they hear this. If you're a marketer on that type of team, how do you start better advocating for self report attribution? You just start put throwing it in, testing it, like like what you were saying earlier. or any any thoughts there? So this is this is a very easy shift, and so it's something called hybrid attribution. Historically, what marketing teams have done is software based attribution, like you said, it's it's teams that are looking at what's been attributed by a software, by Hubspot, by Dream Data. What teams haven't done is looked at the self report attribution. And when I say hybrid attribution, it's bringing those together. So these teams should absolutely be looking at software based attribution, because that attribution tells you how the demand was captured, how they entered your pipeline self. Report attribution, which is just another column in your Dashboard or your spreadsheet, tells you how the how the demand was created. And so now we know how people found out about us, how people found out about our product or category and then how they entered her pipeline, and that tells a fuller story. So it's it's honestly very simple shift for teams that are very focused on attribution. And when you think of the hero metric, what's the like biggest pushback you get on getting getting to that? Because obviously it's going to be an easy selling point for a sales team and I think it's a unifier. But after you've worked with several teams and like, I know we're even trying to right now, like we're not doing this effectively out because we're right in the beginnings of it. But I'm like, what's the biggest pushback or the hardest part of implementing that? The hero metric or the hybrid attribution hero metric? Okay, the hardest part is the mindset shift and the short term disruption, and what I mean by that. This is difficult for teams with a large str sales organization, and the reason being is to hit it's certain hero volume. Your marketing execution has to change the book downloads...

...and Webinars, and I've got no issue with Webinars, but they're typically associated with just a bunch of calls and another the generation tactic. Teams have to move away from that and actually educate the market and that can be things like running a podcast or, if you're running linkedin ads or facebook ads, ditching the Legion campaign objective and introducing reach campaign objectives. We're educating people in feed around your product, around your category, or even thought leadership to build the affinity with that brand. And so what happens? Because we ditch these lead generation initiatives? Lead volume and M que volume decreases, but the interesting part is that qualified pipeline and heroes are not impacted and actually increase. So for these larger sales organizations it's much more difficult because now they have a hundred strs that they're like hey, some of our strs, we don't know how you all are going to eat exactly you said. I don't know, I won't be able to eat. And so it's much easier for earlier on organizations with immature sales teams, or it's probably not the right word, with smaller sales teams, to shift to this model. For teams that have larger sales organizations, ALWOULD SUGGEST A it's gonna be a while, it's gonna take a long time, but still run your lead generation activities, find the the generation programs that have the lowers, lowest cost per lead to still have that running. So you can have that lead volume but then shift a good percentage of your efforts to create man capture demand motion. So you're kind of easing easing the new marketing approach. And Yeah, I only was in sales miles for like seven or eight months, but that imagining how now, with the create demand, captured demand, all that conversation and being so much more in tune with it than I was at that point. I imagine our team and how it would have impact us, because we were pretty early on. We didn't have too many we didn't have the problem of too many sales people. We had a problem not educating the market and it would have been a game changer for us to have people that were creating content that they were putting in front of the right types of people. And then, as someone who often was like calling in and just trying to book the Demo, I was talking to people that were highly like they were not informed and they were super busy and they did like wrong place, wrong time, wrong part of the pipe, and I'm just trying to get them to the demo as fast as possible. So now seeing all of this side of things, man, it has been like just a light bulb went off in my head and so I hope that's happening for listeners, whether you're on sales or marketing side. But it's uh, it's amazing. Go, go up one more tier. Yeah, I'M gonna go one more tier. I just I just wanna make a note. One more thing. Okay, this this shift, and this this is kind of...

...if this is based off something you just said, which I find is really interesting. There's a phenomenon called str or b Dr Burnout. That's typically because number one sales just a hustle, which that is where its sales as a hustle, but a lot of these stairs and BDR is because the marketing teams are finding a legion model. You're calling people or emailing people and having to contact them five to ten times and you're met typically with resistance and sometimes anger. Hey, stop calling me, you've called me five times, and I think that is a big contributor to SDR burnout. Alternatively, if you you make the shift to this new marketing approach, imagine if you're an str and, seven times out of ten you pick up the phone or email someone, they're either excited because you're a brand that everyone loves. I was talking to Carl it refined labs. You work for help spot, and you said it was great being on sales there because people just wanted to react with an individual hubspot Um. So that's one benefit. You're met with enthusiasm because people love your your brand, and then number two, you're at with people that actually want to purchase your product. They're excited to purchase your product, and so I think a kind of a side benefit of this whole new marketing approach that only is a positive impact on business, but always str is get relax a little bit and enjoy their work environment and actually enjoy the role in the position. I gotta say one follow up thing there, because I think what's interesting about that is when you think about companies scale, oftentimes they don't, they couldn't implement what we're talking about because they don't have anyone that's in any sort of marketing function early enough. So your SDR team, your sales team, is like potentially growing faster than what's happening on the marketing side, which I get it in the old form, but if you have no one sitting in those seats that's able to properly educate the market and you have an a sales team that just needs to sell but they haven't educated properly, you're gonna have this really weird lack of balance that's very common in early stage SAS companies that don't have a marketing department yet, and that's that's where there's I know not everyone is in that stage, so this part of the conversation might not be applicable to you, but those that are you're feeling that, I'm sure, because your sales team is just doing the cold calls, just doing the emails and they're not they're hitting the ceiling of lack of education in the market. That happens on the marketing side. If you could get SDR that has this mindset and could could function and like a marketer but also sales role. That's the dream. That is so all SID man. That is too good. All right, let's let's keep this thing moving, man. I don't want to I don't want to stick on it forever, but let's let's go the next year. This is this is great. So now we've covered our marketing KPI is, which our first tier or second tier, which was our early indicators, and now we're going through this third tier, which is channel level...

KPIS. And so each channel, depending on the nature of the channel, is going to have different kpis because humans use them differently. Email is different than Linkedin, for example, and so by channel it creates quantitative and qualitative Kpis for those channels that show me if my performance is improving in the channel or maybe what's working and what's not working. And so, using linked in organic for example, maybe the KPIS that I set our views to a post and let's get three metrics used to our posts, engagement rate and then follower volume. Say those are are three quantitative metrics for Linkedin. We want those to increase. Over time, but we can also gain daily or weekly insights from those metrics. And then, on the qualitative side, depending on the nature of the platform, what what the buyers or customers are actually saying? And so a lot of times it's what are they commenting? Are They D M in you? What are they D M and you for, if we're continuing with this lengthen example, and so the kidenceaid I like to look at this is a daily, depending on your your position, or weekly level as a team, because it shows at a very micro level what's working what's not working, both from from the numbers but also the feedback from your market, and it spurs obviously future creation for talking about content in this context, by marrying those two types of metrics together, those two types of data, you can understand what your market is interested in and then it continues to improve in performance because you're delivering to the market what they want to talk about. We're we're like sover, like a d m or something like that. When it's a social share, like what our Best Practices to actually collect that? Like I know for us we have slack. That's always just we have a winds channel. So when we see something come through hubspot. That's where it lives. We've talked about that on here before, our marketing channel. If we see any great mentions or you know, one of us was on a different podcast and there's great, good comments. Is there a better way that we're missing or is that? Is that a good start? Yeah, I don't. I don't think you necessarily have to collect the qualitative data. I think copying and pasting every D M and every comment and through spreadsheet, sure your boss, would be a complete waste of time, but it's it's this responsibility is typically on the manager, and it's too. What I like to do, the manager of the platform. I mean, is to take screenshots of the actual conversations and show that to either leadership or the lead of marketing, marketing lead, to show, Hey, this is uh, some pushback we got on this topic, for this is a question we got. Or here's a screen shot of hundred people. You can hit the command minus, minus zoom out on your back through's screenshot of a hundred people that are perfectly that are are perfect the CP they're saying. This is amazing. This helped me...

...so much, this provided so much value in my professional life and so it's uh, yeah, it's not not collecting that data. Are Storing it in a place, but collecting that data in terms of screenshots, adding them to a presentation and communicating with the marketing lead what signals that qualitative data is providing. Did you say there was a qualitative and quantitative side to this part, or just the qualitative? The quantitative are the channel specific metrics, using the Lenkedin example, follower volume page leaks views of the posts. Yea Perfect man. This is so helpful and I think now people with a picture, they're going like, okay, I understand, I'm not going to just like go and implement this tomorrow, which is why we advocated at the front end like hey, start with the two different DASHBOARDS, start getting this stuff rolling. Hero is going to take along. If you have nothing like that type of metric. Hero is probably the most would you say that's the most complex part of this? Getting people centered around that? Yeah, getting them centered around this new measurement framework, and then just the change from marketing being measured on leads and M quels to being accountable for revenue and why. That is important for sure. Okay, well, anything, as we start to wrap up this episode, miles that you're going. Okay, just be sure as you move into implementing that you watch out for this or stay checked in on this, like last little warnings before we start to wrap. Yeah, so that's piece of advice I always like give. Is the data wins. And so, especially transitioning from this marketing being measured on M quels now marketing being attributed to revenue. Actually show the conversion rates to an Mquele, actually from m cul to customer and how dismal that is, the extremely high customer acquisition costs and the long sales cycles, and then help leadership along with that journey, continue to show them that those metrics that hey, sales cycle is is dwindling for now closing someone in forty days instead of ninety, our customer acquisition costs are are have reduced by so constantly providing data and telling that story. That's probably the most common mistake I see when marketing teams make this transition is that they don't use data to help back the story. They talking hypotheticals. This is going to work, this will work um and I don't help guide that journey off the data. So yeah, but other than that, I mean if you can do that, you're you're going to have a pretty successful transition from leads to revenue. Fantastic. Well, I appreciate you spending time here with us and breaking this down. For people that want to stay connected to you, what's the best way for them to do that, and then talk a little bit about your new Gig at observe a I. We'd love to hear a little bit about what you are up to there as well. Yeah,...

...absolutely. You can find me on Linkedin, miles madden. I'm on Linkedin every day. Feel free to send me a dam and I took respond pretty quickly, within a day or two, so I've got it's it's an open door. I'm always free to talk. As far as AB survey, I physician. There's in your demand generation manager. So, simply put, helping these guys grow and and hopefully become a public company. I won't go into depth there, but yeah, sisting with marketing leadership and in terms of execution and strategy. Fantastic. Well, this has been a really insightful conversation and we're always trying to do that here on B two B growth. We want to fuel new ways of thinking and we want to help you and your marketing team continue to win. So if you haven't followed the podcast yet, you can do that so you never miss an episode. You can talk to me over on Linkedin as well. Would love to hear from you and talk about marketing, business life and keep doing work that matters. Will be back real soon with another episode. Miles, thanks so much for being your mouth. If you enjoy today's show, hit subscribe for more marketing goodness. And if you really enjoyed today's show, take a second to rate and review the podcast on the platform you're listening to it on right now. If you really really enjoyed this episode, share the love by texting it to a friend who would find it insightful. Thanks for listening and thanks for sharing.

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