748: Before You Create Another Case Study, Listen to This w/ Moshe Abudarham

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

In this episode we talk to Moshe Abudarham, Founder of Mamba Freelancer.

A relationship with the right referral partner could be a game changer for any BEDB company. So what if you could reverse engineer these relationships at a moment's notice, start a podcast, invite potential referral partners to be guests on your show and grow your referral network faster than ever? Learn more. At Sweet Fish Mediacom you're listening to be tob growth, a daily podcast for BB leaders. We've interviewed names you've probably heard before, like Gary Vannerd truck and Simon Senek, but you've probably never heard from the majority of our guests. That's because the bulk of our interviews aren't with professional speakers and authors. Most of our guests are in the trenches leading sales and marketing teams. They're implementing strategy, they're experimenting with Pactics, they're building the fastest growing BEDB companies in the world. My name is James Carberry. I'm the founder of sweet fish media, a podcast agency for BB brands, and I'm also one of the CO hosts of this show. When we're not interviewing sales and marketing leaders, you'll hear stories from behind the scenes of our own business. Will share the ups and downs of our journey as we attempt to take over the world. Just getting well, maybe let's get into the show. Welcome back to the BEDB growth show. We are here today with Mosha, I wouldaram. He is the founder of Mamba Freelancer. Mosha, how you doing today? I'm doing well. Thank you, and you treams. I am fantastic. So, Moscha, how I think we connected a few weeks ago. Turns out we have a lot of mutual connections with Guy Toano from sales hacker a bunch of other marketing folks that we realize that we all knew whenever we hopped on a call a couple weeks ago. But the reason that I'm really excited to chat with you today is one what you're doing with Mama Freelancer, I think, is super intriguing and and it during our conversation a couple weeks ago, realized how much of an expert you are in the art of creating compelling case studies, and I've heard you know there's not a marketer in the world that would tell you that case studies are one of you know, arguably the the the highest converting asset that they can create, and so I think everyone knows how important they are. But you actually have a really cool methodology for how to go about creating them and a really unique perspective. I think you've actually you've will get into kind of that more, but first can you tell usmcial what what is Mamba Freelance are all about? What are you and your team doing? And then we'll dive into the art of writing really compelling case studies, right. So thank you for that intro. And Mamba Freelance is a curated network of M A and MBA quality freelances and consultants for to sendings, has sells, people and executive and we focus on providing you invest in class content,...

...marketing, product masting, thousand ablement and for leadership. Love it and so you you really are curating where where there are a lot of sites like fiber and upwork that that don't have nearly as much intentionality around quality of the freelancers on the platform. You are very picky about who you allow to be in your freelance network because they have to have, you know, an Emma or an NBA. Is that correct? Yes, I have seven M A or an MBA or at least be judged to be that quality. And then said, worked in content masting disciplines for a certain number of years before all let them on the platform, and I've been in content masting to eight years, with some Opal lapt into into the other discipline, and so I'm sort of the judge and officer as to whether they are good enough to meet my standards, which hopefully means that they are exceeding my client standards. I love it. I love the the concept and your eye for quality, I think, is, I don't know, speaks feature itself, and we're going to get into a lot of that. Your background. So so you've, as we dive into talking about case studies, you have done over a hundred case studies over the last eight years for three different companies and and you've learned, obviously, in when you do that much of anything, you're going to learn an enormous amount of map about it. As we dive into this interview, most I would love for you to explain why should the person listening to this ride a case study? Right? So a case study first. If we think where the case study goes and what's it's used for, that will are really explain the why? So? In content marketing, as a lot of the listeners will know, you have the top of the middle and the bottom of the funnel, of the sales funnel and the marsting funnel before that. And case study is the reason why converts so well is because it sits in between the middle, the bottom and the and and the big the marketing funnel and the beginning of the cells funnel into the cells fund. So case studies are used as that sort of last debt, last touch on what I believe is nowadays an average fourteen pieces of content before someone in touch with sales. And it's also a great way if customer, central customer has or hasn't read the case study. It's great for sales enablement and what I found is that it's especially good for the sales people that you're putting out into the field at events and conferences. And the reason why you write a case study is because it's excellent social proof. If you think of a testimonial that is, you know, considered quite a good thing to have on your home page, your website and and to have more of them across your website and different, different social media. This is like a testimonial expanded and it has a certain structure and...

...story to it that really really gives across the value of yours to a particular customer and it allows prospects to see what value you could give to their business if they engage your services or use your products. All right, so the so the next question motion. Now that we understand the why, the next question is are you ready to write a case study? And as we're talking about this offline, you mentioned that a lot of people kind of jump right into it long before they're ready. So what's the benchmark that you use to determine whether or not somebody's ready to write one of these are not right. So if we take mom but freelancer, which is which is my mason company, you're going to it's too early in the process to do studies about my clients. We've been up and running for about six months and although I've got a lot of experience and my freelancers have a lot of experience, as mom but freelancer, we're not ready to tell a particular story because the story has to have a relationship and it has to have significant results. If there aren't significant results yet, then it's not really worth writing it. Because you're not proving anything. You want to prove that the relationship to be established, developed and lead to results for the client, of the custom love it. And so you see the mistake happening where you know somebody six months in and they're just not giving enough time to establish that relationship. So they're pulling the trigger too early and they're ultimately just not telling a compelling enough story. Yes, so there's that mistake and then there's and there's the fact that some companies, probably because of that mistake, they put out a case study that is is just designed no story and it just says problem, solution, and that's not enough for a case study. You know, case study is, as I said, it's the relationship and what they achieved and what they're going to achieve next, and to ready start tell a story about that, you need a little bit longer than six months working together to make it interesting and make it do what it's meant to do, which is attract new customers and new new prospects. So now we've talked about kind of the why behind a case study. We talked about how you determine whether or not you're ready to write a case study or not. This next piece were going to talk about is really just how do you define what a case study is? Okay, so, for me a case study the minimum is the two parties involved. Sometimes you could have more than one party, although I prefer to leave multiparty case studies for use cases way where you're looking at how a few different parties worked with the permission in company to grow that business or to to solve a problem in their business. So for the first thing is you need to have two parties involved. You can't just say we do this, we do this, we do this. You have to say we do this for this company that was experiencing that problem. The idea of a case study is to make both sides...

...look good. So if you get business for the subject company, that's Great. That should be a bonus for the company that's commissioning the case study. And, as I said before, we're looking at the relationship, how it developed and the results awesome. So so now I really want to get into the nuts and bolts of what belongs in the actual case study. So this, this next part of the interview, really going to die deep into like what are the sections of a case study? Walk us through what each of those are right. So that the birth section, and this is a little bit counterinsurative, that we really need to introduce the customer or the client before we start telling the story. And I think most companies permissioning case studies they would jump in right to what they do, what they offer, and there's no context as the you know what the client or customer does and and what they're trying to achieve. It maybe like a target, as we were targeting this result, but without understanding the background as the cliental customer, it doesn't take for a good story about it makes for a good ABC, but a needs to be developed, she needs to developed before it is really considered a proper story had. Do you ever? Do you have a amount of like how long should that section be, like a about the client? Right, so usually a case study is two sides of a PDF, the sort of thing you can hand out at an event, the sort of thing that a prospect can read within, say, ten twenty minutes and go away and think about it for longer and try and apply it to their own situation. And so once we've written about the client, don't have to expose the problem that the client was happening. So for example, when I used to work for UK trade and investment, I did a case study which I thought at the time was one of the less interesting case studies, although you'll understand a minute way it maybe it may have become one of the more interesting case studies ever did. We were doing a case study on Amazon. UK trading investment who are helping Amazon, an American company, come and established route in UK, and they were actually I forget if it's bads or Edinburgh. I think it was Edinburgh. They were trying to find a suitable location in the UK. Turned out to be Scotland that would allow them to expland and expand their Amazon services, of which, now that we know there are many in the UK and as in the focus was fulfillment services. So the gist of the case study was that they they found an old building and in the UK old buildings are actually nicer building. They've got a little bit of class in history to them. So they found I think it was the post office building in Edinburgh, beautiful ornate building of out of stone, and they wanted to find a location that was close to transportation hubs so that any of their executives could come...

...in and fly in and be able to be, you know, a train away from from the fulfillment center. They also wanted a place with a good talent pool and a labor pool so that they could find managers all the way down through to fulfillment personnel. And we now know, having seen how much Amazon's grown to one of the biggest companies in the world. But this is actually quite fulfillment is is quite central to their growth and they have better fulfillment than most other online shopping services. So they wanted they chose this post office building in Edinburgh, they took it over and they turn it into a fulfilment center and and so we were trying to expose part of a problem of what they needed. And you know, that's the sort of thing I've just been describing. That's actually the second part of a case study. Is With talked about the clients. So we explained about Amazon, then we expose the problem that they needed this, this ideal location for a fulfilment center, with the talent around, with the travel hubs around, and then we start to talk about the relationship. So the relationship is between Amazon and the team and you can trade an investment that was helping them to find the best location and and how long do you suggest elaborating what are the different facets of the relationship that need to be communicated? Okay, so, for example, did they consider alternative, alternative solutions to going and getting advice from UK trade and investment? Or, when I was writing case studies for smartling or for past gather, did they consid up for the translation technologies or other relation techniques? When we're talking about smartling and for past gather, did they consider other learning management systems before they stumbled upon or found park gather as a talent development platform? So we also talk a little bit about how they became connected in the first place. WHO INTRODUCED AMAZON TO UK trade and Investment at the ideal partner to give them advice about where to find things in the UK and we're best to doing the research and where best the place there for film and Center? You know, Edinborogh for an American company wouldn't necessarily be the most obvious choice. As it happened, when they look through multiple cities, it made the most sense to them. And also why Amazon Shows UK traders passement, why HP or visa or t mobile chose park gather to be their talent development platform, why they chose the talent development platform instead of a more basic traditional learning management system. So we want to let the reader of the case study understand have an eye in to the thought process as to why the put the company commissioning the case study was chosen instead of other solutions or other other possibilities. Data. Okay, that makes a lot of sense. So we've you've now got a...

...section about the client, you've got a section that exposes the problem, you've got a section that explains the context of the different relationships, how they found out about you, the depth of the relationship, and then this next section you talk about the results that have been achieved. I think a lot of people kind of want to jump to this, but but this is kind of fourth on your list. Talk to us about this, this section. Yes, so this this is literally the fourth section of the case study. And we talked about the experience that was had with UK train investment or with smiling or with past gather that there's after the decision has been made. So that might mean that we're talking about particular dedicated support that was given that they maybe it was a sixmonth process and we're a lot of meeting, maybe in UK training investments case. Maybe they had recommended outside parties to get them involved, consultancy firms, etc. And that leads to the results achieved. And, as you say, you don't just jump right to the results achieve you need to give that context first, because otherwise the reader of the case study is not able to understand the steps from reading the case study all the way through to being those results and the results achieved. This comes back to the are you ready to write case study? If you don't have results, then there's a major factor missing. So although a lot of people start with the results, and I've said that we really need to lay the ground work and tell the story behind those results, you still need the right results, and results are best given over as a quantifiable number. So it may be a dollar figure, a pound figure, it might be a percentagecentage growth sensitive of people's signing up instead of what they had before. WHO's signing up, WHO's become customers? It May, in certain circumstances, be what the results allow them to achieve later. And that brings me to the the last part of the fourth section, which sums that sometimes, isn't it? Don't parap is what's next for their client. So, for example, with Amazon being able to land and expand into Europe and Invita the UK, that allowed them to then go and explore other hubs around Europe and really expand their network of fulfillment centers. So it's very interesting to say what's next for the client or the customers, because it's not just what they achieved with the company that's commissioning in the case study, it's what ouse is coming after that. Okay, and and and do you see a lot of people missing that part where they don't share what's next? Yes, yes, I see a lot of companies that just put a number, which is great. You neither number or percentage of change or growth, but they miss of what that results, what results that result of them. It's to achieve. All right. So this last section of the interview, most we're going to talk about additional elements that you need to include, and this is really where I think this, this particular episode,...

...is going to be a master class, setting itself apart from other pieces of content that tell you how to create a case study, because this is as you were talking through each of these additional elements, I just thought, man, that's this is so, so smart and things that I can imagine people just don't think through. So the first additional element that it needs to be including a case that you say is is fast facts. Can you talk to us about what these are and where should that be incorporated into the case study? Yes, right at the top of the case study. The Fust sect is your case study equivalent. So what we've seen a lot online lately of the Tlda too long, didn't read, and you've got to think that you want a decision makeup to be reading this case study. Right, we're all targeting decision makers. Be Had INMOXING, they had in sales. We all want to get through to the decision makers, or at least one of a group of decision makers. So they don't have a lot of time. We've got to be respected to their time. And if you have six case studies and they're trying to choose one of them, the first facts would be able to tell you the name of the company, the industry that they're in, make the size of the company. Perhaps so that I'm won from t mobile could look at HP case study that we did for park gather and say great, this is an enterprise company. With X thousand, x tens of thousands of employees, their brand name. Okay, we now know that park gather, who's now actually been acquired by degrees recently. Congratulations to them and the team over there. But Park gather was the technology and the team was suitable to handle enterprise customs. So these first facts, the Tldre of a case study is very important. It should be right up top and usually next to some sort of design or imagery or photograph. And when it comes to the imagery, you may not think aboutt it, but you don't want to just put a person and you don't want to just put a brand logo. You want to have something that represent the subjects of the case study, subject matter of case study. So in Amazon's case we took the picture of this gorgeous old historic building that they had purchased or set up the rent for in Edinburgh, and that was better than having the person who was quoted a picture of them, because this isn't really about people. This is a really about achievement, business achievements. Right, when we've done case studies on medical suppliers, then we've taken a picture of the product. Well, put an image that is medical oriented. So that's the fought sex and it should be right next to the first image that you put in on the on the front of the top of the first page. The taste them. We can't name names, but today's gross story is about a billion dollar tech security firm. Even though this is an incredibly successful company, they've struggled with cross selling among their top...

...global clients through an underperforming inside sales team. So how did they solve for this? They implemented a multi tactic program that included display email, direct mail, global inside sales and an enablement team. This program guaranteed pipeline conversions and resulted in a two hundred and fifty seven percent increase in mql to s ql conversion and then almost two hundred percent increased in closed business. So how did this security firm get these kind of jaw dropping results? The answer is Simbol mrp politics. MRP politics is an insight's power account based marketing platform with streaming predictive analytics baked into its core, integrating multi channel ABM execution. On these insights, mrp politics triggers display email, direct mail and global inside sales in real time, helping the largest marketing departments in the world deliver the right message to their customers at just the right time. So can MRP politics get similar results for you probably find out by visiting mrpfdcom or click the link in the episode description of this interview. All right, let's get back to the show. Okay, so we've got fast facts that need to be included as an additional element. The next one we're going to talk about as a sidebar. Talk to us about this one. Yeah, so it's Sidebot is usually again on the first page and this is really the cut permissioning company giving their highlights, the summary points. So what's say with UK Trade and investment? It would it would talk about you could trade investment, it would have some details about what services, different services UK trade and investment offered and then it would have a how to get in touch. And about eight years ago, seven years ago, we started putting in social media links, not just website but also that the twitter and the facebook and linked in links. Those would go in there right on the front of this two page media to side the media. All right. So so we've got fast facts, we've got a sidebar. This next one is called a box out. Talk to us about this one right. So the box out is usually the last thing on the study and this is where the commissioning company gets their focus on who they are and what they do and what they offer. And it's say a paragraph or two in a shaded box, just a simple rectangle. Same for the SIDEBAR, except slightly different shape, and they expose what they do and it then has the golden pull to action to say, if you need our services, this is how you can get into touch. Now, if you're talking about a digital copy, you can provide a link that would lead to a landing page or lead to a website. If you're talking about the hard copy that you might take to an event or sales people might take out into the fields generally,...

...and then you would want either a phone number or an email address, and at this point you could probably put the name of someone in charge, if there is somebody who is in charge of the particular services or products on offer. Okay, so fast fact. SIDEBAR, box out. The the next one that we're going to talk about is design. I, you know firsthand, understand the importance of design and if this thing looks like something a fourth grader put together, it is not going to be real or received. talked to us about some design elements that the people need to be looking out for when they're creating case studies. Right. So, say it needs to look good, it needs to look professional. The this is the bottom of the marketing funnel into the sales funnel, as we said above, and so you're going to want an actually designer to set this up. We've already said that there are certain blocks. So we would have the image blocks with the fast backs next to it. Would have the sidebar along the side, usually the right hand side, of of the first page of the PDF, and you've got the box out at the end. So all of this needs to be shaped out properly and whether whether the text goes is usually best done in the middle of all of this in columns. So I've see I've done case studies with two columns. That I think preferred. The preferred design is three columns, almost like a newspaper, because if you want people to be able to read it fast, four or five words a line, which is what the columns restricts you to. That's the best design for it and it's important. This is one thing that I'm particularly OCD about is it's very important to try and remove as many pythons and hyphenated words as possible. So when I'm going through the editing and I'm climbing through I want to make sure, especially on the name of the company, that I don't want it to be Amaphen and then the next line is on. I Want Amazon to be a full work right, and the same for UK trading investment, which is a bit more of a mouthful. It's along the phrase at least the first time that UK training investment was mentioned. We always wanted that to be on one line the best as possible, because if you want that name recognition, don't split the name up. That's something to be considered, as not just the design of the colors and the images and the shapes and sizes of the different box outs and sidebars, but you also want to consider the design of the text. And that brings US actually to the next thing that we're going to talk about, the titles and the subtitles. Now let's talk about that. You want yeah, so you want a a catchy title and you want subtitles that aren't just problem solution result, problem solution results. When you're writing six or twenty or however many case studies you've been to prepare as the commissioning company over...

...time. You want something a little bit more interesting than that. So, off the top of my head, it might be how UK trading investment helped Amazon land in Europe. That might be a title for the for the whole case study. Then you would have, you know, lost in the UK. That might be a subtitle for the problem section, because that's what their problem was. You want to describe it a little bit. So because you don't want repetition between case studies and because you want this is a story. This is very formal, but the title, the subtitles have a little bit of a personality to get that. Okay. So so the next the next one we're going to touch on is quotations. Weird, you want to book quotations. Who are these? From the from the client? Talk to us about the quotations. Yeah, so, as I said before that the case study isn't about an individual person. So it's not about how somebody got promoted. You don't want to use an image of a person for the for the main image up front, but where the person comes in is the quotation. So what I like to do again within this column format. The seven to eight hundred words of the case study story. You should have a couple of paragraphs per section and then one paragraph with a long quotation. So it might be a sentence, commace close quotations, says Joe, and then you use their full name and their full title the first time and then subsequent times you might just use says Joe. That the first time you include says Joe Thee of X Company in whatever it is, and the quotations are full of quotations because that's where the person and really it's the social proofs. It's the confirmation that the first two paragraphs of about the client exposing the problem, about the relationship, and then about the experience and the results achieved. Each of those. You want that, that confirmation in the words of the client. Now I will say as a case study writer, this is something company should note, is that not every client has the best English. And when, when we'll talk about this just before we finish off. I think it's how to get this information. But when you speak to the people they might say, Oh, it was great, that was great and that thing that happened there was great. Well, it's not going to make a great case study to write. Great, great, great, great great. Okay, so you want, you might want to play around with it a little bit and paraphrase that. That leads me to telling you that most case studies you get the information on a twenty to forty minutes phone call or which is set down in the format of an interview, questions and answers that fall into the sections that we describe that will appear in the case study. So you'll ask them about their company and their background and the growth they've experienced. You'll ask them about...

...the problem. We'll ask them about how did they come to to meet the solution provider. Bear you know, Mu can train, investments, smuggling or park gather from my experience and and having done that, you will have a lot of their words, but you need to paraphrase it a little bit. Unless you have a very eloquent interview eat, you're usually going to have to paraphrase a bit. But, and this is the final step to publishing the case study is, I believe every case study needs the consent of both parties were being featured in the case study. You don't want to publish something that the other person is going to come back and say, Hey, I've been say that. Well, I'm not happy with how you paraphrase what I've said. So they always have a chance to revise, and this is what means makes case studies take quite a long time to prepare. If you're writing a case study in a week, that's probably you probably skipping some steps. Most case studies take between four weeks and twelve weeks to real produce, and that includes requesting and asking somebody if they're going to want to be featured in a case study. Right, doing the interview and you know got usually, if you've got somebody worth featuring the case study, they're busy, as we said before, so you've got to make you can find a good time for the interview. Then the right has to go away and turn it into a case study. Then the editors should come in. These there things that are high levels, so you should have an editor involved and make sure not just the formal language is you know, that formal formatting and language of the case study, but also to ask questions like and why is that relevant, and what happened next? You skip a step and making sure that that everything flows beautifully and then it will go to the client for review. Then it will come back and the client may have had some objections or might want something pulled out. You might want something put in that wasn't mentioned in the interview that they've thought about later or a result they've achieved since the interview. So they may go through another round of writing and editing and then it would go to everyone. Once it's gone into design. It would go to everyone for their for their content. That's the best way to have a caste study that is beautiful to pat is ready for the audience and both parties are happy with how it's turned out and happy for it to be to be shopped around. As I say that, you know, on your website, through social media, as part of a cell's enablement strategy or, and I think the the interesting part is is thinking about this case study is not just a tool for for your sales team, but the fact that this case study can actually could actually be a sales tool for your customer as well. I think is a really different way of looking at it that I don't know that a lot of people look at. And so by by collaborating with your customer at that level, knowing that hey, this is this is just as much as a sales collateral piece for you, you know, maybe not quite as much, but it can...

...absolutely help you, you know, get some awareness and and and bring a new business for you as well. I think that's super interesting. The last piece I don't want to talk about in terms of like the additional elements to include in a case study is this two to three paragraph intro that you're going to use to almost like keys out your what's in the case study. Can you talk to us about that? Yeah, so in the trade we call it a prisy. It's a French word, but basically it's a summary of most of the case study, leaving out a couple of, you know, the juice, a details perhaps, but it's a teaser and it's a two, two three paragraph version, usually on the two hundred words. That tells the story without telling the story and just like the fast facts do at an event and if someone's downloading it, this is a way of introducing the PDF before the PDF actly happens. And because we're in marketing, I'll say that case studies are great for the generation. So you don't necessarily gate your books, you don't necessarily gate your product announcements. In fact, I would recommend against both of those being gated content. But case studies are the sort of things that you can make the choice. Do I get the content, do I not get the content? But because you have this tracy where they've already shown, Hey, I'm interested and I don't mind this company having my email address because maybe I do want them to get in touch with me, it's a great way to tease out an email and do some the generation that way as well. Awesome. So you mentioned before most of the that this case study should be a PDF. Why? Why should it be a PDF? Largely because it's going to appear in multiple forms. Spoke it will. It may be something to be downloaded and save for later, printed out, read it on the train. You know, we said busy executives. You're trying to busy decisionmakers. You're trying to get their attention. You can't always get that during the work day, so you want them to try and save it as a file and they start or email it to themselves or something like that, and then, when you know it saves time for when you're printing them out for display at a conference or an event or for salesperson to take into the field, they're going to want to print it out nice paper, thick paper, usually glossy, because you've got an involved of photograph involved on that. And if you've gone to the effort of designing it with a professional designer, you're going to want to present it in the hard copy as best you can. So pdf works in all different settings. Awesome. Most of this has been fantastic. I feel like you've really delivered kind of a next level master class, if you will, on on case study creation, the art behind it, the science behind it, why these things are so effective to how to get the most effectiveness out of it. If somebody listening to this, they want to stay connected with you, they want to learn more about...

Mama Freelancer. What's the best way for them to go about doing that? So they can find me on Linkedin, they can come to the website, which is Mamba freelancercom. That's M A, MBA freelancercom, or they could email me directly, Mosag at Mamba Freelancerscom, and I would be happy, happy to respond and more than happy to write, you know, help people prepare great taste studies for that business. Wonderful. I love it most. Thank you so much. For Your Time Today. This is pastic if you're listening to this, I would strongly encourage you to reach out to motion. We had a call a couple weeks ago and and he blew my mind with with his insight and intellect. But can communicate in a way that that a dummy like me can can understand kind of the the concepts that he that he's sharing. So definitely reach out take him, take him up on his offer and motion, thank you so much for your time. Thank you so much, James, and you'll notice on me, but they've me. Thanks. Love you. There are lots of ways to build a community and we've chosen to build the bed growth community through this podcast. But because of the way podcasts work, it's really hard to engage with our listeners, and without engagement it's tough to build a great community. So here's what we've decided to do. We're organizing small dinners across the country with our listeners and guests. No sales pitches, no agenda, just great conversations with like minded people. Will Talk Business, will talk family, will talk goals and dreams, will build friendships. So, if you'd like to be a part of a BB growth dinner in a sitting near you go to be to be growth dinnerscom. That's be to be growth dinnerscom. Thank you so much for listening. Until next time, I.

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