606: 3 Reasons Sales Should Ask Marketing For Help w/ Sam Mallikarjunan

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

In this episode we talk to Sam Mallikarjuna, Executive Strategist at HubSpot and teacher of advanced marketing at Harvard University Division of Continuing Education.

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/mallikarjunan/

Wouldn't it be nice to have severalthought leaders in your industry, Kno and love your brand start a poncast,invite your industries thought leaders to be guess on your show and startreaping the benefits of having a network full of industry. influencerslearn more at sweetfish media DOTCOM, you're. Listening to the B TB Groveshow podcast dedicated to helping B to B executives, achiev explosive grownwhen you're looking for techniques and strategies, tools and resources. You'vecome to the right place, I'm Jonathan Green and I'm James Carburry. Let's getit into the show. Welcome back to the BTO B growth showtoday, we are joined by Sam Malcargenon. Sam is the executive strategist at hubspot. He also teaches advanced marketing at Harvard UniversityDivision of Continuing Education. San Welcome to the show, thanks for havingMa looking forward to it. It's a pleasure to have you on here. We we gotconnected through through mutual acquaintance and they were going to be.Talking were otaling a little bit off ar e talking about this idea. That ABCis dead. You know they always be. Closing mentality is dead. What's moreimportant than that. Why sales should actively seek out marketing's healthrather than avoiding them, and I think it's going to be a really powerfultopic and I want to get into it but seand before we do. Maybe you can tellour listeners a little about yourself and WHATC you're up to these days yeah,so I work at hub spot, which is a software company based out of Boston.It's a sales, marketing and custom success, ofare platform, and then Ialso teach at two universities I teach at Harvard, and I also teach uh atUniversity of South Florida Mumacollege of business, even though we're based inBoston, I actually live in Tampa because I cannot tolerate snow. I tried it for a few years at the whomeoffice and just could not handle it now. That's all right! I get it w and Samand I are practically neighbors, of...

...course, we're out here in in Orlando.So you know it S. it's been getting down to I gotta say it's been gettingdown to. I think the the fifties, but t that's about as bad as it gets out here.That's brutally cold by our standard allright. So see him, you know again:Wewe were joking a little bit about this idea that you know ab C is dead aD and that's that's a captivating topic, but we are really going to be divinginto this idea. Of course, sales and marketing alignment. We havewe V, we've seen you've mentioned offline. You know, sales raps may haveless power than ever before. A linment needs to go way up, but people willcontinue to talk about it because you know, even though everyone isinterested in this concept, not everyone is executing on t and theethey're not executing on it. Well, so that's why we've got you here today.We' we've got few points we're going to make so seein. Where do we? Where do westart? Where are we starting? Today's episode? I mean I mean I think, justfinding what whateverybody already knows like you said it was weird for mewhen I started at hub spot, because I started my career in sales before hubspot and, as I told you, prior to the beginning of the show, I was the mostobnoxious always beclosing oriented sells rep that you could possiblyimagine. As I mentioned, those people who, like harass you and the ball, tryto sell your cell phones. You know them man, they are just the worst yeah. So Iused to trade erly you used to be on yeah. Iabsolutely did I did a Didifer a summer. It was sort of the best idea that wehad at the time right like we would train. You know you got agreet to eatsort of mentality and it was we didn't h, spend anytime on watch t wasteedtime. You know we literally showed Glengary Glenross and boiler room innew hiher training, and it was it was that mentality and the problem is, youknow, there's jist quote: That's always bothered me, that's uh! When whatyou're doing is it working? You tend to do more of the same with greaterintensity. MHMTHAT is not working...

...anymore and our reaction to that isgenerally to do more of the same with greater intensity or at best to talkabout. Well, you know, maybe the marketing folks aren't so bad after all,and and they could help us with us, so it was weird because then I switchedover to the marketing team. Tit's really given me, I think a uniqueperspective on the ways that those two teams can work together and what's sortof like causing them to hate each other, an causin to not get along yeah. Andthat's perfect. That's exactly why you'rly D to come on today and talkabout this. You know you've got some additional perspective, you're, not notspeaking in in a vacuum or just just from one side. So you know we had a. Wehad a couple of points that we're going to get yo. We were, we were talkingnumber one. You had this idea t in order to m enhance alignment. Is thatyou want to create a sort of bidirectional service agreement. Can weunpack that talk about what that is yeah, so the key to any relationship iscommunication and clear expectations right just as true in my marriage, asit is between t a sales and marketing team, and it's funny. When I do theseworkshops, I actually call it couples therapy for sales and marketing leaders,because what what the breakdon really is is the failure to communicate andfailure set expectation so having both the Le The sales leader and themarketing leader and the cells ar in the marketing ord agree on what numberseach of them is going to. Try and move have a shared dashboard that, on a dayto day basis for a month a months basis, they can all see how the other team isperforming and they can give feedback M in advance. So at Hospa, our ESSLA fromthe marketing team to the sales team, for example, is based on what we callpipeline revenue, so every type of lead from every type of source. A certainpercentage of those I historicaly are going to turn into a customer thatspends on average a certain amount of money. So each one of those conversionscounts towards US filling the pipeline. Our job as the marketing team is tocover the sales teams quota. When you position it that way to the SALL team,it's amazing how much that one small...

...thing changes the relationship you havewith sales, because helping me hit quota. Helping me make more money issomething that I really understand is a salls rap. I'm pretty fond of money, really understand that and it it makesme much much more willing to not only work with you, but also go in the otherdirection. Where I'm giving you information, one of the hardestchallenges is actually getting sales rups to log data and Crm, or somethinglike that. We don't really have a ton of problems with that, because the salsrups know that every time they log data, the marketing team's looking at thatand they're getting better and smarter about how to help them close more leadshow to help them make more money and how to also make the experience betterfor the prospect ecause they're going to use all that information to sort ofcustomize ie experience to the prospect so for the salesork. A lot of this wasactivity oriented. So it's first ofall data like you have to F. Even it's justraiting leads high meet even low, so I can look at where they came from andsee what it is. But then also you know, let's t be honest with ourselves: cells,reflectto, Cherypick and we like to you know, make a call make maybe one or twoor three calls and then quit. Well, we have good solid data that at least ourcompany. Your probability of closing the LEA doesn't start to decrease untilafter seven attempts have been made between calls and voice males, oice,molls and emails, and so we have a dashboard with little. Like graft, likeyou have in your car, you know Sayng fold empty right. That shows whether ornot the Sellsdros are actually making the appropriate number of attempts onthe leads. I mean, if they're not that's, a conversation that we can have,but at least it's communication and clear expectations. So you know it'salmost I'm getting this. This image of youknow when you're talking about clear and open communication, it being like amarriage being like couples therapy. So you want to you want this relationshipto be more like a marriage, less like a one night stand between sales andmarketing were marketing. It's like! Alright, here's you, you know, where'syour lead, like you go, do it it's it's...

...it's much more, collaborative and andsharing of of information and data, which makes a lot of sense, and I meanand you're sort of touching on this. This second point already is thatmarketing needs subjective and objective Deta from sales about thequality of their lead. Let's talk about that Real, quick yeah, so one of themost impactfule things ananybody said to me m. Her name was G Hopkins. Shewas one of our original VPS and she told me that to think of sales, as mycustomer, I am producing a product for the sales organization. The CILL'sorganiation is consuming it now. Who among us, is going to send product to acustomer and then never ask them questions about it right. I I have thebenefit that my customer lives in the same building that I do or they work inthe same building that I do we go to the same restaurants. We go to he samebars. We hang out all the freaking time, but a lot of marketers don't use thatas an opportunity to do customer development. Customer Research, whichis asking the sales organization, even if it's just rating the leads high,medium and low, and not just looking at volume, Ri really looking at thequality first, the benefit is, I can look at my marketing campaigns and seewhat conversion events and what sources drove high quality leads. So, forexample, the sales team threatened to throw me out of the fourth floor windowonce because I tried to make the ECOMMER TECOMMERC smarkeers guy doadvance statistics and well. Our software does a do advance statistics.It's not a statistic software, but you know in true market or fashion. I wastrying to write something that made me feel smart and Impresse, my friends andfamily, and the SALLSORD was like rating all of those leads very, verylow, and I was able to dig in and be like, okay, why 'cause they hadmialigned expertations and everything else that you would expect so. First,like I can make those pivots in great detail. Second, I can. I can look foroberations right, so I I noticed a weird thing. If, once IM, one of mycells are ups, Ted Ammon was actually...

...making more attempts on his imediumrated leades than his high rated leads, and when I went to ask him about this,it's because he had developed has sort of different process for going afterthe medium raded leads, and then I was able to sort of codify that processscale it up. For him so build it into my marketing aunomation as him, andthen also do it for everybody else on the team, so we were able to actuallyget better at selling to medium rated leads, because I was asking for thatsubjective data back from the sales team and without that I, especiallywhen you have a small team, like everybody, wants to use big data likeif you're closing a hundred new customers a month or really, if you're,closing less than like five hundred new customers a month. It's really hard touse big data to get a statistically significant sample unless you're likethe amazots of the world, whereas subject ive data just literally askingthe Salls raps your customer. Is this? What you wanted? Did you achieve whatyou want and if not why? What was wrong? They had the wrong expectations: Thewrongside o the company, whatever figuring that out and then eithergiving them tools to address those concerns or changing what I'm doing tomake sure that I'm sending them a product that they like perfect. Thatsounds great, and this third point that you had wanted to make Sam is that youknow- and this is this is very much related to the idea- that the ABCalways beclosing mentality as dead is that the lines have blurred. This is nolonger thanyour process. This is not a. This is not one night stand handed off.You have to be able to pass the ball back and forth. Let's talk about that.A little bit yeah, so one o M, one of my favorite quotes is from Jeff Bezosand when he first added negative reviews to the emazon website, he gotan angry letter from his investors. That said, h the KF. We know you thingthis Internet thing's going to be big and all ay by the way they make twohundred fifty eight thousand dollars a minute, but y. You obviously don't know how torun a business. You make money. When you sell things, why would youdiscourage anybody from doing that? TEASES sepplied? We don't make moneywhen we sell things we make money when...

...we help people make purchase decisionsand that's how they've tried to structure it with varying degrees ofsuccess. I can show you my inbox, where they're emailing me three to five timesa day, literally with basically by now messaging, so they don't always walkthere. Talk you know. Mongus is perfect right, but the thing that the thingthat that quote at least helps us understand is that our goal should beto help somebody make a decision and decisions. Au're not lining her M,especially in marketing automation like we like to make fun of sales. Marketingoutdimation is not much better. Rightour strategy generally is sendthem an email asking them to do something wait three days. If theyhaven't done the thing, send them an email asking them to do it again andthen wait three days if they haven't done it sen, I an Eo, ask him to do itagain, but be like really snarky in passive aggressive. This is the innovative marketingautomation strategy that people are going after. Instead of acknowledgingthat people move back and forth as they learn more, they might be ready to buya product. have it added to their cart, and then they discover something newabout a future and it kicks them all the way back out to the research phaseof the buying cycle, where they're thinking about what is it d h, definingwhat their actual problem is, what the solutions are- and I think what'sreally missing- is the ability of t in the willingness of the cells andmarketing team to pay close attention to where the customer is in the cycleand make that pass back and forth between the sales and marketing teamseamless, because the marketing team is really good. It's sort of at scalehelping people in the awareness and research and comparison phases of thebuying cycle and a real human being is needed to help people actually make adecision at the end, especially in the B TBS space. It's Needd to help youmake a decision at the end, but if somebody isn't ready to buy this Qarteragain generally, we put them on our list and we spend then three times aweek with a coupon. Instead of passing them seamlessly back off to themarketing team figuring out where they were like. Is a budget authority needtiming like what's the hold up that was presenting them from buying and havingthe marketing team, nurture them, and...

...then once they express those signs ofsignals that maybe they're ready to talk to a human being again, thenpassing it back and forth between sales, if you've ever seen, like I'm blinkingon the name of the play in football, but at the end of some football games,they'll just start tossing the ball back and forth to each other, becausetime has expired and they're, just hoping that somebody makes a mistakeand they be able to run down the field. That's the Fumbl, Rusky sort of thing,Ek, that's sort of how the past back and forth feelds right now, it's verydisorganized and it's not necessarily doesn't have a clear objective and likenobody, it's sort of like crazy and exciting, but like nobody feels good atthe end of that play right, and so that's that's whatat's pe change. Youhave to understand that you're helping stoing to make a decision figure out,not where you want them to be, but where they actually are and serve upthe relevant experience and then t the sales team has to be willing to sayjust 'cause somebody's not ready to buy. Now I'm going to feed good data back tothe marketing team, because the marketing team then is going to pickthat slack up until they're ready to talk to sales and then they may getpast the park to marketing again Han. They make it PA passpacte sales, but itall has to be seamless enough that the customer experience is not degradedyeah. I love that and sin one of the last things we were. We were going totalk about I'd like to just touch on it briefly, since we just we got a minuteleft, but I know you did have some data on sales characteristics and the onesthat lead to we're talking about. You know not not the short term games butlike hitting that long term quota yeah a and again like I, I don't want topretend like my past- is peras the driven snow, because you know anybodywho's been to a mall n knows how folks onclosing we were, but we've done goodsort of correlation analysis on this wher. We asked sales managers to ratetheir cells reps, and we tracked over time who actually hit quota over thelong term, and we tracked some normal things that you would expect like.Overcoming objections, building report, closing ability needs identification,these sorts of things, and then we...

...track some other weirder dimensionssuch as previous domain experience like had they been the customer that theywere selling to Um adaptability, preparation, those kinds of things youmay be able to guess that I'm going to say that previous domain experience andadoptability by far had the highest correlation to people hitting quote along term. You know I I love it when I can hire x, marketers at Sall dropsbecause x, marketers sell to sells raps really really. You know, sell tomarketers very, very well, I'm a marketer marketing to marketers aboutmarketing R. I guess to be very honest about this yeah. But what mightsurprise you is that the classic cells characteristics don't have a lowercorrelation. They have a negative correlation. You are actually lesslikely to HEC quote a long term if you're, just a really good, closer, O,really good, a overcoming objections, then, if you're, actually just mediocreat everything which is bullh, shocking and disheartening. H, it's it'sshocking because that that was my main focus always be closing. It's alsodisheartening. B'cause, I can't imagine how many hundreds of Salls raps I'vetrained to do this exact thing and how we structure Complans, to incentivizethem to focus on closing and were not only doing them a professionaldisservice and taking money out of their pocket by making them focuse onthat, but we're also hurting our company's lung term. Well, you know Imean, and selfishly it's it's good for our show that you know when, when theTimes continue to change and and the process continues to evolve, becausethat way we get to keep on bringing bringng on fantastic gest such asyourself to all talk to us and our listeners about. What's going on,what's the latest and greatest an and San, this has really been a tremendousepisode. You ow you you've got some you've got some great insight, you're you're, very witty. This hasbeen a tremendous experience for me, and I know our listeners are going toget a lot out of this episode as well. If any of them want no connect with youafter this episode, What's the best way for them to go abot doing that,absolutely you can google anything even...

...close to my name. You'll find mywebsite my Lincon, my twitter, they're, all just at Malicargen or Malicargenon.If you want to learn more about the data specifically go to research, DOT,help spot dot com and we publish way more research than Ou, and I could everpossibly talk about in this period of time when it comes to sales and marketingand a D, especially the alignment between the t yeah as ANTAC. Thank youageting. So much o your time. It really was tha pleasure having you on the showtoday, my pleasure, taking for Havin me to ensure that you never miss anepisode of the btbe growth show subscribe to the show in Itunes or yourfavorite pot gas player. This guarantees that every episode will getdelivered directly to your device. If you are someone you know would be anincredible guess for the B to be grosshel email me at Jonathan atsweetfish media dtcom. Let us know we love connecting wuld bee to beexecutives nd, we love sharing their wisdom and perspective with ouraudience. Thank you so much for listening until next time.

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