575: The 4 Conversions That Make Marketing Work w/ Sean Doyle

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

In this episode we talk to Sean Doyle, CEO of Fitzmartin.

There's a ton of noise out there. So how do you get decision makers to pay attention to your brand? Start a podcast and invite your ideal clients to be guests on your show. Learn more at sweet fish Mediacom. You're listening to the be tob growth show, a podcast dedicated to helping be tob executives achieve explosive growth. Whether you're looking for techniques and strategies or tools and resources, you've come to the right place. I'm James Carberry and I'm Jonathan Green. Let's get into the show. Welcome back to the BB growth show. We are here today with Shawn Doyle. He is the CEO at Fitz Martin and also the CEO at Shawn Em doylecom. Shan, how you doing today? Wonderful, good day. I am excited to chat with you today. Sean. It is Thanksgiving week as we were recording this, so I am ready for some Turkey, but also ready for this conversation. We were talking offline just about a lot of different ideas, but the thing that we're going to really hone in on today is this, this idea of building direct sales models. I think you've got you've got a lot of great things to add to this conversation. You've built a framework around this principle that I think is phenomenal. But before we dive into that, can you tell our listeners just a little about yourself? What are you up to? It Fitz Martin and Shawn Him Doilcom? Oh, certainly, thank you. We do two things. We work with two different types of clients, to different sizes clients, so smaller companies, typically up to about ten ftees, maybe a million or so. And revenue we work through Shawnem DOILCOM and that is a tool where you can provide written literature, shift as a book that's being released in January. We have a video product and it's to help executives who are in charge of marketing but they're not trained for the task. Then Fitz Martin is the company that I help found twenty six years ago, and we work with larger companies that have the infrastructure and are looking at ways to improve their sales and marketing organizations or departments, and Fitz Martin is a sales a marketing consultancy that does just up. I love it. So so shown. We're, like I said in the Intro we're going to be talking about direct sales models. Explain to our listeners why this is a topic that you think needs to be talked about more. Oh well, everybody has a list. In my experiences, every CEO, every business owner, every salesman has this list of companies and it's these groups, these organizations, maybe teven on market segment, that if they could reach them, if they could get them to buy the product or service that they're selling, it would radically change everything. It would bring a new revenue to the company, it would bring in opportunities, it would bring credibility to grow an up cell and maybe even, if you're a...

...business owner, it's this list of companies that, if you had them as clients, you might even have an exit strategy, might have built a company that sustainable and sellable. So these companies, everybody has a list. I mean for you listening today and imagine right now, what would it be worth it that list that you've got in your head? What would it be worth it to you if you could reach them? I mean, what's the number? I did this in a Rondo the day with thirteen people and by the time we went around the room and added up the value of the list. It was approaching two billion dollars. Wow, it's amazing. Yeah, it's amazing the value you can get if you could reach these people. These are to reach people. Okay. So clearly it this needs to be focused on, because if, if you're in a small group of people that are saying that this list adds up to two billion dollars, who wouldn't want to reach everybody on that list? And so I guess the question becomes now, well, how do we actually create those conversations? How do we get in front of those people that can be game changers for our businesses? That's a great question. But you know, there's another interesting fact about these lists. Typically, these prospects know the company and the company knows the prospect in fact, if I kind of go back in time, I would tell you a story that began on a February night in two thousand and too, when I received a call, got some bad news, some health care news, and everything's fine. I'm still here. And in the process of that heavy news I reevaluated just about everything in my life. One thing that I thought through was what I did professionally, and at that point I had a thirteen year old company. We were doing good work, but I didn't always know why. I didn't know how to repeat it consistently, and in marketing that's important. Most people are frustrated with their their marketing investments in the past. They've tried an agency, maybe a second agency didn't work out. They tried some things that worked and then the next things they tried didn't work and they don't really know why. Then, if I was honest, in two thousand and two I wouldn't have known why either. So I one of the ideas that was presented to me at the time was that there's a way that we as people change the way we do things, behavioral change. Behavioral Change Really is nothing more than than buying cycle. We would call it a consumer decision journey, and I was introduced to the book called changing for good, which was written by Protochka, nor cross and Declemente, and in it they break down the six stages of change that all people go through, and it sounds pretty typical. If you're a marketer or in business, start unaware of something, move through contemplating about it, maybe then into planning and an action and then soul deserving you're a customer. Well, okay, great, that's a that's a...

...buying cycle and most of us have a pipeline report of some sort. But then the magic that happened for me was the discovery in the book that there are nine enabling processes that facilitate movement along that buying cycle. And, and here's the Aha, these processes don't work all the way through. Some processes are effective early stage. For example, something called consciousness raising works when someone's moving from unaware to contemplating about buying something. Okay, but but then the next step emotional arousal or rational reevaluation or the processes that move you from contemplating to preparing, to preparation or planning. But there's emotional arousal doesn't help you create awareness, and awareness doesn't help you move somebody toward preparation or action. Actions when you're thinking about somebody saying give you a proposal. Let me understand that. And then even further there's more processes that help. Helping relationships is one. It's a sales driven tactic, or environmental control, which is more of a marketing driven tactic. That only helps when there's a proposal on the table and someone's deciding if they're going to sign. So when I discovered this, it gave me the ability to break down the sales cycle but, more importantly, a way to audit the tools that marketing was using or creating and audit the way sales was behaving and identify where there were barriers or, more likely, they were using the wrong tools at the wrong time. I think about it, what do you think about an ad agency? What do they do, James? Are they're getting awareness? Yeah, exactly, which is wonderful, and that's an early stage effective tool. But then that's where agencies typically fail. They're not thinking about later stage sales cycle needs, and that's where we're able to come in. And in fact our great proof of this was back in two thousand and two right after I got that phone call about my healthcare problem, I got another phone call. was from my largest client and it went something like this. Sean, we're glad to call you here, but we've got one, fifteen hundred prospects. We know them, they know us. We'd love to do business with them. We've been trying to sell to them and we can't make it work. Now we've gone through three other agencies. They've all failed. They're all fired. Would you like the opportunity? Yes, so all we did is we said sure, I don't know. How do you say no your largest client? And the result was phenomenal. By moving the processes, create getting tools that were creating emotional arousalver rational reevaluation, private and public commitments, we were able to take this one...

...fifteen hundred stale prospects. We're able to get ninety one percent of them to take a phone call. Wow, fifty eight percent of them took meetings, forty percent of them accepted and requested proposals and the bank closed three hundred and eighty million dollars worth of lunes and deposits. Holy Cow, it four weeks in floyeks. It was fun. I change my career to bank elected to day. So you have outlined nine processes and you say that each process only works at one of four specific conversion points. So did you guys take those processes and then you define certain activities that that the bank would do at, you know, at when when this particular thing happened? So when they agree to the meeting, then that triggers, you know, this specific set of actions. Or walk us through kind of what that looked like. That's a great question and I've been glad to walk us through it. The the audit that we did. First thing, we just literally got a whiteboard and just wrote up on the wall everything that all the other people had done, all the agencies had done. Banks call sales people relationship managers, so we looked up the relationship managers activities and we integrated. So that was the first thing that was different from a typical point of view as we integrated marketing and sales, and that's often a point of of inefficiency. Marketing works independent of sales or sales doesn't think much about marketings opinion, and one way to bring them together, just marketing and sales alignment, is to focus the conversation not on each other but to focus the conversation on the customer. And if you can create a common language so the customer is the center of it, then when sales says somebody needs to get more excited about something, well, marketing can say, yeah, we're at the conversion to where emotional arousal is important. So now sales and is an agreement with marketing. They're using the same language and even the conversion point. We love to see it when people say, yeah, we're at a conversion to somebody's moving from contemplating to planning. So now, ahead of time we've got this agreement because it's based on science, not on some marketers opinion or some sales guy's opinion or the highest paid, most important person in the room's opinion. Now we've got an agreement that scientifically based, that sales marketing management. We can all work together. We have one set of languages. So with the bank, after we mapped it out, what we realized was was a lot of investment financially and from the sales point of view and the marketing point of view, there's a lot of investment in conversion one which is I've taken to somebody from unaware to contemplating. Right, makes sense. Yep, I think this is a symptom of tool based...

...thinking, but let's come to that maybe a little bit later. Okay, the second conversion processes center more around taking somebody and emotionally getting them excited. What would it look like if I could do this, if I bought this product, if I use this particular vendor, what would it mean to me as a buyer? Or there's there's James, maybe you're a rational maybe you're a type of buyer that wants to say, you know, I can visualize what it would like be like to work with you, but I need to know. Am I going to get a two point lift or we going to be more efficient and my costs going to go down? Give me the rational. Well, depending on most of the time we see, depending on the companies we're working with, they may have a bent towards the emotional arousal processes, and that's just natural for them because as the way they think. Yeah, well, if you don't provide the rational arguments, then there's a large part of your market place that's going to miss the ability to move forward. Or the inverse could be true. You know, let's say we're working for scientists or engineers, you know, or they're it's all rational and all their arguments are rational and their power points look like sheets of excel numbers and the ratios. Well, your buyer might need some emotional understanding of what it would look like. Think about this. Do you think about the last time you bought something where maybe there was two decision makers? This works on consumer. Maybe you were buying a car or maybe you were buying something for Your Business. And if I ask you to buy something and I've given you a rational argument, but there's somebody else in the business that doesn't think that way, what happens? You present these rational arguments and a turn it down. Yeah, they don't get it. Yea. Let's say you're more emotionally driven and you need this understanding, you need safety. So you're looking for you've got all the rational arguments you need, but I don't know emotionally if I'm safe to take it to my peers. And that sounds super soft and kind of Gushy, but it's the way we make decisions. It's just the way human beings work. Yeah, and so are those messages, the the emotional arousal and the rational reevaluation of the what if envisioning? Does that get delivered via email? How are you delivering those messages? We have a cheat sheet that I would be glad for your listeners to have access to. They can reach out to me directly or through you, and I'd be glad to send it to them. Some tools do tend to lend themselves towards the process. For example, video can be very good at creating emotional arousal right, versus maybe a calculator. It's more of a rational reevaluation tool. Got It. Them. So there are some tendencies. But but this really leads James to another...

...big problem. Most marketing fails because it's tool based. So yes, videos are important, but you have to know what the video's purpose is. So behavioral science is the videos purpose is to create emotional arousal. Got It. Or the calculator's purpose is to support a rational reevaluation process. For someone to go huh, that's interesting, that makes sense. I can see this rationally. And most marketing fails when it's tool based. And if you look at all the tools, I made a list. I don't know, it's sixty items on there and some are pretty high level and some are pretty granular. But if you think about all the types of marketing tools, there's inbound marketing tools, there's outbound marketing tools, there's philanthropic efforts, as government relations, there's channel development, there's human resources, employee culture, there's I mean there's all kinds of sets of tools. And when we solve a marketing problem, even I tend to start with, Oh yeah, what if we did a PR effort or what if we did direct mail. What's slow down? Yeah, that's not the tools not going to solve the problem. Identifying where the barrier is will solve the problem. Then you can create the tool. Got It. Okay. And so so we've talked about the conversion one process, consciousness, raising awareness. You said that the other agencies in your story about the bank, they'd already invested a ton there. So so the conversion to process is where it kind of fell off, creating this emotional arousal, the the what F envisioning? Talk to us about the the third conversion process. Great, I'd be glad to planning. So if you think about planning, that's when you're you've done your research, contemplating. Typically is a lot of online Internet privacy in you've got the ind an Amenity of third party reviews, whether it's trip advisor or it's a Bob Opportunity where you're watching a web x or something, but you've got a certain amount of an amenity. That's where there's emotional rational reevaluation processes work to your point, and then there's a there's an interesting tool that focuses on our process that focuses around commitment and private and then public commitment. So think about again and you go back to the last time you and maybe some other people worked jointly to make a decision. If I'm a salesman and I ask you, James, would you put me in front of your CEO, one of the three of us get together and talk about this, was the answer no. Why? You know, why would you answer no? Too much risk for you. You don't know. You don't know what I'm you know I'm trying to get your money right. So...

...why would I take a personal risk of putting you in front of my peers, whether it's the board, the directors or even somebody who works with me in within a corporate structure? You just not willing to do that. But you've got to make a commitment of somebody WHO's not willing to make a commitment. For example, just behavioral science comes out of the behavioral science changes around things like smoking and drinking and losing weight. So you know, if you don't make that private commitment to those changes, then you can't move forward. Yeah, but the other step would be the public commitment. So the public commitment, then you've put a little more risk out there. That's when you're willing to tell somebody I'm going to lose ten pounds by Thanksgiving. Not Possible. So they're very intentional. Very smart marketers create tools with sales, working with sales, Yep, to offer ways for a buyer to first make a private commitment, it's low risk, and then later a public commitment. The private commitment might look like a lot of different things. It might be subscription to an email right, that's a pop. That's a private commitment. Might be a one on one meeting, James, if I come over to you, to your office and meet with you and show you this and that and I'll do a little rl live schedule. If you'll give me some numbers, I can build this financial return model. But, you know, just be between you and me, James. Then if you decide you want to move forward, we can take this to the board or to the decision breast of the decision making team, you know. So marketings, marketing that's smart understands that as you get closer to a soulden serving or exchange relationship, that it's time to start working very closely with sales. Earlier stage processes tend to be marketing driven. Later stage processes tend to be more sales driven, but marketing has got to support them. You've got for processes that cut. That are the conversion for processes. And we don't have a lot of time here left, Shawn, but you talked about helping relationships, positive substitution, encountering environmental control and then rewards for positive behavior. Can you quickly kind of give us a synopsis of these conversion for processes and as we kind of put a bow on these nine processes at the four different conversion points, the bank that closed three hundred and eighty million dollars worth of deals, they got much more intention and tensional about understanding these processes. Environmental Control was critical. What that means is if you keep trying to get someone to change their behavior but nothing physically around them changes, it's too easy to continue to the behavior. If I'm trying to quit drinking and I'm still sitting in a bar, the tendency is going to be for me to have another drink. Yeah, so environmental control teaches us that marketing and sales can work together together to change the environment,...

...whether it's a surround of their product or at a site visit or a plant tour or a neutral third party location so, I mean that's that's when it does make sense to take someone to dinner or golf or a weekend away or retreat. Those are the that's a good example of how marketing and sales should we work together. Positive substitution is more he instead of buying from that vendor you're buying now, if you bought from us, here's what it would look like and we'll give you an you get X, Y Z from that person. So from this person we're going to get from us. You're going to get that you know and to you, and then rewards for the house of behavior. It's just what we all did raising children, right, Yep, you did something good, you got a little reward, you get a skuttle. Yeah, in our else. So they're very basic processes, but all of them are very integrated to sales and marketing and that's where we're closing deals, that's where marketing delivers Roli, and that's where marketing starts coming to the boardroom table and the board understands that marketing is a real serious business function. No, this has been, this is and incredibly hopeful for me, Sean. I know that our listeners are going to get a ton of value out of this as well. What's the best way? If someone listening to this they want to get access to those talking points that you had referenced earlier or they just want to stay connected with with what you've got going on? How do they connect with stay connected with you after this interview? One of the other big changes in my life after two thousand and two was I decided to give anybody who wants help help for free. So I am glad to share the sales on marketing framework or we. I'm growing out with a book in January and that would be more than more than glad to get that book to you. Rich me at Sewn Sea and at Fitzmartin, FIA T Z, Mr Timcom love it. I'd be glad to help. Awesome, Sean. Will thank you so much for your time today. Again, this has been fantastic, so I really appreciate it. I enjoyed a good questions. Appreciate you. To ensure that you never miss an episode of the BETOB growth show, subscribe to the show in Itunes or your favorite podcast player. This guarantees that every episode will get delivered directly to your device. If you'd like to connect with Bob Executives from all over the world. Make sure to join our private facebook community. There are some incredible conversations happening inside this group. To Join, visit be toob growth showcom FB. Thank you so much for listening. Until next time.

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