575: The 4 Conversions That Make Marketing Work w/ Sean Doyle

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

In this episode we talk to Sean Doyle, CEO of Fitzmartin.

There's a ton of noise out there. So how do you get decision makers to pay attention to your brand?Start a podcast and invite your ideal clients to be guests on your show.Learn more at sweet fish Mediacom. You're listening to the be tob growth show, a podcast dedicated to helping be tob executives achieve explosive growth. Whether you'relooking for techniques and strategies or tools and resources, you've come to the rightplace. I'm James Carberry and I'm Jonathan Green. Let's get into the show. Welcome back to the BB growth show. We are here today with Shawn Doyle. He is the CEO at Fitz Martin and also the CEO at ShawnEm doylecom. Shan, how you doing today? Wonderful, good day.I am excited to chat with you today. Sean. It is Thanksgiving week aswe were recording this, so I am ready for some Turkey, butalso ready for this conversation. We were talking offline just about a lot ofdifferent ideas, but the thing that we're going to really hone in on todayis this, this idea of building direct sales models. I think you've gotyou've got a lot of great things to add to this conversation. You've builta framework around this principle that I think is phenomenal. But before we diveinto that, can you tell our listeners just a little about yourself? Whatare you up to? It Fitz Martin and Shawn Him Doilcom? Oh,certainly, thank you. We do two things. We work with two differenttypes of clients, to different sizes clients, so smaller companies, typically up toabout ten ftees, maybe a million or so. And revenue we workthrough Shawnem DOILCOM and that is a tool where you can provide written literature,shift as a book that's being released in January. We have a video productand it's to help executives who are in charge of marketing but they're not trainedfor the task. Then Fitz Martin is the company that I help found twentysix years ago, and we work with larger companies that have the infrastructure andare looking at ways to improve their sales and marketing organizations or departments, andFitz Martin is a sales a marketing consultancy that does just up. I loveit. So so shown. We're, like I said in the Intro we'regoing to be talking about direct sales models. Explain to our listeners why this isa topic that you think needs to be talked about more. Oh well, everybody has a list. In my experiences, every CEO, every businessowner, every salesman has this list of companies and it's these groups, theseorganizations, maybe teven on market segment, that if they could reach them,if they could get them to buy the product or service that they're selling,it would radically change everything. It would bring a new revenue to the company, it would bring in opportunities, it would bring credibility to grow an upcell and maybe even, if you're a...

...business owner, it's this list ofcompanies that, if you had them as clients, you might even have anexit strategy, might have built a company that sustainable and sellable. So thesecompanies, everybody has a list. I mean for you listening today and imagineright now, what would it be worth it that list that you've got inyour head? What would it be worth it to you if you could reachthem? I mean, what's the number? I did this in a Rondo theday with thirteen people and by the time we went around the room andadded up the value of the list. It was approaching two billion dollars.Wow, it's amazing. Yeah, it's amazing the value you can get ifyou could reach these people. These are to reach people. Okay. Soclearly it this needs to be focused on, because if, if you're in asmall group of people that are saying that this list adds up to twobillion dollars, who wouldn't want to reach everybody on that list? And soI guess the question becomes now, well, how do we actually create those conversations? How do we get in front of those people that can be gamechangers for our businesses? That's a great question. But you know, there'sanother interesting fact about these lists. Typically, these prospects know the company and thecompany knows the prospect in fact, if I kind of go back intime, I would tell you a story that began on a February night intwo thousand and too, when I received a call, got some bad news, some health care news, and everything's fine. I'm still here. Andin the process of that heavy news I reevaluated just about everything in my life. One thing that I thought through was what I did professionally, and atthat point I had a thirteen year old company. We were doing good work, but I didn't always know why. I didn't know how to repeat itconsistently, and in marketing that's important. Most people are frustrated with their theirmarketing investments in the past. They've tried an agency, maybe a second agencydidn't work out. They tried some things that worked and then the next thingsthey tried didn't work and they don't really know why. Then, if Iwas honest, in two thousand and two I wouldn't have known why either.So I one of the ideas that was presented to me at the time wasthat there's a way that we as people change the way we do things,behavioral change. Behavioral Change Really is nothing more than than buying cycle. Wewould call it a consumer decision journey, and I was introduced to the bookcalled changing for good, which was written by Protochka, nor cross and Declemente, and in it they break down the six stages of change that all peoplego through, and it sounds pretty typical. If you're a marketer or in business, start unaware of something, move through contemplating about it, maybe theninto planning and an action and then soul deserving you're a customer. Well,okay, great, that's a that's a...

...buying cycle and most of us havea pipeline report of some sort. But then the magic that happened for mewas the discovery in the book that there are nine enabling processes that facilitate movementalong that buying cycle. And, and here's the Aha, these processes don'twork all the way through. Some processes are effective early stage. For example, something called consciousness raising works when someone's moving from unaware to contemplating about buyingsomething. Okay, but but then the next step emotional arousal or rational reevaluationor the processes that move you from contemplating to preparing, to preparation or planning. But there's emotional arousal doesn't help you create awareness, and awareness doesn't helpyou move somebody toward preparation or action. Actions when you're thinking about somebody sayinggive you a proposal. Let me understand that. And then even further there'smore processes that help. Helping relationships is one. It's a sales driven tactic, or environmental control, which is more of a marketing driven tactic. Thatonly helps when there's a proposal on the table and someone's deciding if they're goingto sign. So when I discovered this, it gave me the ability to breakdown the sales cycle but, more importantly, a way to audit thetools that marketing was using or creating and audit the way sales was behaving andidentify where there were barriers or, more likely, they were using the wrongtools at the wrong time. I think about it, what do you thinkabout an ad agency? What do they do, James? Are they're gettingawareness? Yeah, exactly, which is wonderful, and that's an early stageeffective tool. But then that's where agencies typically fail. They're not thinking aboutlater stage sales cycle needs, and that's where we're able to come in.And in fact our great proof of this was back in two thousand and tworight after I got that phone call about my healthcare problem, I got anotherphone call. was from my largest client and it went something like this.Sean, we're glad to call you here, but we've got one, fifteen hundredprospects. We know them, they know us. We'd love to dobusiness with them. We've been trying to sell to them and we can't makeit work. Now we've gone through three other agencies. They've all failed.They're all fired. Would you like the opportunity? Yes, so all wedid is we said sure, I don't know. How do you say noyour largest client? And the result was phenomenal. By moving the processes,create getting tools that were creating emotional arousalver rational reevaluation, private and public commitments, we were able to take this one...

...fifteen hundred stale prospects. We're ableto get ninety one percent of them to take a phone call. Wow,fifty eight percent of them took meetings, forty percent of them accepted and requestedproposals and the bank closed three hundred and eighty million dollars worth of lunes anddeposits. Holy Cow, it four weeks in floyeks. It was fun.I change my career to bank elected to day. So you have outlined nineprocesses and you say that each process only works at one of four specific conversionpoints. So did you guys take those processes and then you define certain activitiesthat that the bank would do at, you know, at when when thisparticular thing happened? So when they agree to the meeting, then that triggers, you know, this specific set of actions. Or walk us through kindof what that looked like. That's a great question and I've been glad towalk us through it. The the audit that we did. First thing,we just literally got a whiteboard and just wrote up on the wall everything thatall the other people had done, all the agencies had done. Banks callsales people relationship managers, so we looked up the relationship managers activities and weintegrated. So that was the first thing that was different from a typical pointof view as we integrated marketing and sales, and that's often a point of ofinefficiency. Marketing works independent of sales or sales doesn't think much about marketingsopinion, and one way to bring them together, just marketing and sales alignment, is to focus the conversation not on each other but to focus the conversationon the customer. And if you can create a common language so the customeris the center of it, then when sales says somebody needs to get moreexcited about something, well, marketing can say, yeah, we're at theconversion to where emotional arousal is important. So now sales and is an agreementwith marketing. They're using the same language and even the conversion point. Welove to see it when people say, yeah, we're at a conversion tosomebody's moving from contemplating to planning. So now, ahead of time we've gotthis agreement because it's based on science, not on some marketers opinion or somesales guy's opinion or the highest paid, most important person in the room's opinion. Now we've got an agreement that scientifically based, that sales marketing management.We can all work together. We have one set of languages. So withthe bank, after we mapped it out, what we realized was was a lotof investment financially and from the sales point of view and the marketing pointof view, there's a lot of investment in conversion one which is I've takento somebody from unaware to contemplating. Right, makes sense. Yep, I thinkthis is a symptom of tool based...

...thinking, but let's come to thatmaybe a little bit later. Okay, the second conversion processes center more aroundtaking somebody and emotionally getting them excited. What would it look like if Icould do this, if I bought this product, if I use this particularvendor, what would it mean to me as a buyer? Or there's there'sJames, maybe you're a rational maybe you're a type of buyer that wants tosay, you know, I can visualize what it would like be like towork with you, but I need to know. Am I going to geta two point lift or we going to be more efficient and my costs goingto go down? Give me the rational. Well, depending on most of thetime we see, depending on the companies we're working with, they mayhave a bent towards the emotional arousal processes, and that's just natural for them becauseas the way they think. Yeah, well, if you don't provide therational arguments, then there's a large part of your market place that's goingto miss the ability to move forward. Or the inverse could be true.You know, let's say we're working for scientists or engineers, you know,or they're it's all rational and all their arguments are rational and their power pointslook like sheets of excel numbers and the ratios. Well, your buyer mightneed some emotional understanding of what it would look like. Think about this.Do you think about the last time you bought something where maybe there was twodecision makers? This works on consumer. Maybe you were buying a car ormaybe you were buying something for Your Business. And if I ask you to buysomething and I've given you a rational argument, but there's somebody else inthe business that doesn't think that way, what happens? You present these rationalarguments and a turn it down. Yeah, they don't get it. Yea.Let's say you're more emotionally driven and you need this understanding, you needsafety. So you're looking for you've got all the rational arguments you need,but I don't know emotionally if I'm safe to take it to my peers.And that sounds super soft and kind of Gushy, but it's the way wemake decisions. It's just the way human beings work. Yeah, and soare those messages, the the emotional arousal and the rational reevaluation of the whatif envisioning? Does that get delivered via email? How are you delivering thosemessages? We have a cheat sheet that I would be glad for your listenersto have access to. They can reach out to me directly or through you, and I'd be glad to send it to them. Some tools do tendto lend themselves towards the process. For example, video can be very goodat creating emotional arousal right, versus maybe a calculator. It's more of arational reevaluation tool. Got It. Them. So there are some tendencies. Butbut this really leads James to another...

...big problem. Most marketing fails becauseit's tool based. So yes, videos are important, but you have toknow what the video's purpose is. So behavioral science is the videos purpose isto create emotional arousal. Got It. Or the calculator's purpose is to supporta rational reevaluation process. For someone to go huh, that's interesting, thatmakes sense. I can see this rationally. And most marketing fails when it's toolbased. And if you look at all the tools, I made alist. I don't know, it's sixty items on there and some are prettyhigh level and some are pretty granular. But if you think about all thetypes of marketing tools, there's inbound marketing tools, there's outbound marketing tools,there's philanthropic efforts, as government relations, there's channel development, there's human resources, employee culture, there's I mean there's all kinds of sets of tools.And when we solve a marketing problem, even I tend to start with,Oh yeah, what if we did a PR effort or what if we diddirect mail. What's slow down? Yeah, that's not the tools not going tosolve the problem. Identifying where the barrier is will solve the problem.Then you can create the tool. Got It. Okay. And so sowe've talked about the conversion one process, consciousness, raising awareness. You saidthat the other agencies in your story about the bank, they'd already invested aton there. So so the conversion to process is where it kind of felloff, creating this emotional arousal, the the what F envisioning? Talk tous about the the third conversion process. Great, I'd be glad to planning. So if you think about planning, that's when you're you've done your research, contemplating. Typically is a lot of online Internet privacy in you've got theind an Amenity of third party reviews, whether it's trip advisor or it's aBob Opportunity where you're watching a web x or something, but you've got acertain amount of an amenity. That's where there's emotional rational reevaluation processes work toyour point, and then there's a there's an interesting tool that focuses on ourprocess that focuses around commitment and private and then public commitment. So think aboutagain and you go back to the last time you and maybe some other peopleworked jointly to make a decision. If I'm a salesman and I ask you, James, would you put me in front of your CEO, one ofthe three of us get together and talk about this, was the answer no. Why? You know, why would you answer no? Too much riskfor you. You don't know. You don't know what I'm you know I'mtrying to get your money right. So...

...why would I take a personal riskof putting you in front of my peers, whether it's the board, the directorsor even somebody who works with me in within a corporate structure? Youjust not willing to do that. But you've got to make a commitment ofsomebody WHO's not willing to make a commitment. For example, just behavioral science comesout of the behavioral science changes around things like smoking and drinking and losingweight. So you know, if you don't make that private commitment to thosechanges, then you can't move forward. Yeah, but the other step wouldbe the public commitment. So the public commitment, then you've put a littlemore risk out there. That's when you're willing to tell somebody I'm going tolose ten pounds by Thanksgiving. Not Possible. So they're very intentional. Very smartmarketers create tools with sales, working with sales, Yep, to offerways for a buyer to first make a private commitment, it's low risk,and then later a public commitment. The private commitment might look like a lotof different things. It might be subscription to an email right, that's apop. That's a private commitment. Might be a one on one meeting,James, if I come over to you, to your office and meet with youand show you this and that and I'll do a little rl live schedule. If you'll give me some numbers, I can build this financial return model. But, you know, just be between you and me, James.Then if you decide you want to move forward, we can take this tothe board or to the decision breast of the decision making team, you know. So marketings, marketing that's smart understands that as you get closer to asoulden serving or exchange relationship, that it's time to start working very closely withsales. Earlier stage processes tend to be marketing driven. Later stage processes tendto be more sales driven, but marketing has got to support them. You'vegot for processes that cut. That are the conversion for processes. And wedon't have a lot of time here left, Shawn, but you talked about helpingrelationships, positive substitution, encountering environmental control and then rewards for positive behavior. Can you quickly kind of give us a synopsis of these conversion for processesand as we kind of put a bow on these nine processes at the fourdifferent conversion points, the bank that closed three hundred and eighty million dollars worthof deals, they got much more intention and tensional about understanding these processes.Environmental Control was critical. What that means is if you keep trying to getsomeone to change their behavior but nothing physically around them changes, it's too easyto continue to the behavior. If I'm trying to quit drinking and I'm stillsitting in a bar, the tendency is going to be for me to haveanother drink. Yeah, so environmental control teaches us that marketing and sales canwork together together to change the environment,...

...whether it's a surround of their productor at a site visit or a plant tour or a neutral third party locationso, I mean that's that's when it does make sense to take someone todinner or golf or a weekend away or retreat. Those are the that's agood example of how marketing and sales should we work together. Positive substitution ismore he instead of buying from that vendor you're buying now, if you boughtfrom us, here's what it would look like and we'll give you an youget X, Y Z from that person. So from this person we're going toget from us. You're going to get that you know and to you, and then rewards for the house of behavior. It's just what we alldid raising children, right, Yep, you did something good, you gota little reward, you get a skuttle. Yeah, in our else. Sothey're very basic processes, but all of them are very integrated to salesand marketing and that's where we're closing deals, that's where marketing delivers Roli, andthat's where marketing starts coming to the boardroom table and the board understands thatmarketing is a real serious business function. No, this has been, thisis and incredibly hopeful for me, Sean. I know that our listeners are goingto get a ton of value out of this as well. What's thebest way? If someone listening to this they want to get access to thosetalking points that you had referenced earlier or they just want to stay connected withwith what you've got going on? How do they connect with stay connected withyou after this interview? One of the other big changes in my life aftertwo thousand and two was I decided to give anybody who wants help help forfree. So I am glad to share the sales on marketing framework or we. I'm growing out with a book in January and that would be more thanmore than glad to get that book to you. Rich me at Sewn Seaand at Fitzmartin, FIA T Z, Mr Timcom love it. I'd beglad to help. Awesome, Sean. Will thank you so much for yourtime today. Again, this has been fantastic, so I really appreciate it. I enjoyed a good questions. Appreciate you. To ensure that you nevermiss an episode of the BETOB growth show, subscribe to the show in Itunes oryour favorite podcast player. This guarantees that every episode will get delivered directlyto your device. If you'd like to connect with Bob Executives from all overthe world. Make sure to join our private facebook community. There are someincredible conversations happening inside this group. To Join, visit be toob growth showcomFB. Thank you so much for listening. Until next time.

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